Hi. Just bought the game. It should arrive in a day or something like that.

I heard truly strange, aggravating thing (even when it was just Ego Draconis) - that this game has no Elves, Dwarves and most of the races of the Council of Seven. Is it true? Does the Dragon Knight saga fix the issue? Because, even in a small village like Aleroth there were other races. Verdistis had other races.

Many races added to the epicness of the world in DD. I loved the feel of that game... And I hope that DD2 will be similiarly good.


Also, I just talked about Aleroth, Verdistis... Will the player be able to visit some of the places from DD1? (not interested in places from BD, this game was a step back in every possible way - no freedom, worse fighting, barrels unsmashable, bad gameplay) If so, why won't there be other races?

There are references to elves and dwarves in books, etc, but otherwise no non-human friendly races in D2:ED or (AFAIK) DKS. You do get to meet to Patriarch again, the dragon from DD's wastelands, and the teleporter stealing imp ZizZax the Almost Wise.

You can return to Aleroth, though it has changed significantly from DD. Unfortunately no other places from DD can be visited.

In BD act 1 was a little linear, but acts 2 and 3 opened up and had a lot of freedom. Playing a warrior/archer, most of the time I had both characters selected and directed them as one, so the combat was pretty much the same as in DD. It was too bad about barrels not being breakable, though.


Welcome to the forum.

I hope that in div3 other races shall return.

Without them world of div 2 fell incoplete.

Div 2 is great crpg game in some aspects,

but in others it can be dissapoiting.

aren't they extinct??

From references in a couple books elves and dwarves are believed to have been wiped out, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were. There may be some in hiding in remote areas in Rivellon, and there is a temple with rifts to other realms that some could have escaped to. Also, Damian made enemies of a race who could create rifts in his effort to return to Rivellon after being banished. They didn't fare well against the Black Ring, but the ones remaining would be inclined to help anyone else opposing them.

can someone sum up the story - DD and BD Spoilers, though main points are given in books throughout D2:ED/DKS

Divinity 3, starring the Divine One? - D2:ED Spoilers, particularly the ending (discussion from before the release of FoV)

A lot of poeple are hoping to have more of the other races in the next game. It was one major element lost from the original DD and why this game falls short in comparison of DD. But standing alone DKS is really a great game that I've played multiple times.

True.


False.

The whole Div Universe is messed up since Div2 release. I wouldn't be surprised if those removed elements will come back in Div3. Apparently, those deusex-things won't make things worse than they are atm.

Baaah, a shame...

Elves and Dwarves wiped out? But... why? How? I think it was mentioned in DD that in case of something bad happening, Dwarves could've easily hide in their city with golden river and nothing could get in, and food supplies weren't a problem...

Besides, how could whole races be wiped out in such a short time? Could anyone explain? Because, Zandalor is still alive, Lord Seth (according to what I heard in one story) is still alive, Divine one is... Elves weren't in a bad position either, especially since we heard about them having their own cities or something like that. Since their mere CAMP had so many people in it (compared to whole human kingdom we could see), it's easy to assume that ammount of Elves was comparable to ammount of humans.

Explanation would be highly appreciated, but I think Larian just went "bah, modelling these pointy ears and these little men with giant beards takes too much time, let's just spam humans over and over". What a shame.

Hm... lets see...

from

So that's one race with can return in div 3.

i hope dvarves are hidden somewhere deep in their mountain halls.

so that's second race with can return in div 3.

Elves are probably hidden somewhere deep in forests(i hope).

So that's number 3

Imps are still there, so they are 4. (in div 3 maybe there will be more friendly imps - some imps village perhaps)

And lizardsmen... do somebody know what happened to them? maybe they are hidden in some swamps?


Soo... i really hope that other races will be back in div 3, and not only humans (humans,humans!!!, everywhere Humans!!! bleh!)

In-game, elves and dwarves bore the brunt of the war with the Black Ring when Damian got back to Rivellon. At least one group of elves was driven into hiding underground and eventually wiped out.

I don't think pointy ears and beards were an issue. Larian could have decided they didn't have the resources to have significant areas of other races, with differing animations, weapons, armour, character design, architecture, history, lore, inter-race quests and interaction, etc. Rather than half do something, or put in a couple token characters, they may have just focused on humans, since that area of Rivellon was predominantly human.

Then again, they could have wiped out the dwarves and elves just to reinforce how evil Damian and the Black Ring were, or how intense the war was. They could have just made a few references to other races withdrawing from the game locations, or simply not returning to rebuild after the war, etc, with little or no trade or diplomatic contact.

What about the dragon elves? Maybe there are more that did not reduce themselves to brutality and sought out knowledge like Vacca on Sentinel Island? I dont know, hopefully the elves and dwarves return in the next installment.

Black Ring or not, this still has plenty of plotholes.

So, the same Black Ring that was almost destroyed and before Damian couldn't even beat Humans with the help of Orcs (not that they really intended to do it, they just wanted more chaos and suffering), somehow managed to completely destroy Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen and other races in a few months/years? Elves with a few cities we heard about in DD, Dwarves who said that in case of any attack, they can hide forever in their city?

Also, looking at D2 DKS trailer, I noticed how dumbledorified Zandalor was. He even got glasses! I always imagined him more Gandalf-like, and his portrait in DD, behaviour, voice and harshness towards his enemies also made me think "oh! It's a bit less perfect (which is a good thing) version of Gandalf in violet robes and fancy hat!"



Dragon elves? So there ARE pointy ears in this game? Great!

Yeah but only one of them talks to you. The rest of the race has become mindless drones for Damian.

Great! If they add option to rape befriend Elves, it will be even better.

Ok the 7 races:

Trolls are here.
Imps are here.
Wizards are here (Zandalore)
Elves are hidden underground (found a book)
Dwarves are hidden underground (we assume)
Humans are here (obviously)
Orc's are enslaved, we never traveled that far east, we went west to where they were.

- The Wizard race is actually a mixture of members with wizard powers from the other 6 races.

Misc.
Lizard people um... did the Divine wipe them out from the Verdistis sewers?
Dragons... hidden
Dragon knights ... your it.
Undead/ghosts "they died, but the problem was that they didn't stay dead"
Lizard/Elf monsters were poisoned out by Damian from Sentinal Island.
Talking Trees (your just going nuts, they don't talk)
Wyverns (they fly around Damians fortresses like sea gulls around the city dump)
Goblins (new)

It seems as if we are dealing with a 2nd apocalyptic war in the DD universe. DD was many generations after the 1st one and now we are in the middle of the 2nd one. After we get to a DD type era of peace again I hope Larian makes a prequel to DD for the events that took place to remove the God of Chaos. Now that would be a freak'n insane boss battle!

GabeN;
So, the same Black Ring that was almost destroyed and before Damian couldn't even beat Humans with the help of Orcs

After the events of Divine Divinity, The Divine and his Paladins were kept fairly busy going after Black Ring members, so the ones defeated in DD didn't cripple the organization. Damian was only just starting to have his powers emerge when The Divine drew him to the rift temple and banished him.


somehow managed to completely destroy Elves, Dwarves, Lizardmen and other races in a few months/years?

With his powers grown, the ability to open rifts to other realms, the organization built up on Nemesis (pre-Beyond Divinity) and alliances formed with powerful demons, etc, I think his second campaign would almost have to be more successful than his first.


Elves with a few cities we heard about in DD, Dwarves who said that in case of any attack, they can hide forever in their city?

They may still be there, for all we know. There are none left in the locations we can visit in D2:ED/DKS, though, and they have not been in contact with those humans.



LightningLockey;
There were Lizard people in Rivellon in BD, so they didn't get wiped out by the Divine.

I wonder, how exactly goblins come to be? Were they Already in times of div 1 but offscreen, or they come to be in great war, or as byproduct of some dark magic?

Goblins are in fact a failed cross-breed of Imps and Trolls.

Really?

You aren't pulling willy on me, are you?

Oh yeah, thank you for reminding that.

Dragon Elves. Hilarious. Elves + lizards. It looks like "effeminate tree-huggers" (that a quote from DD!) got bored making love with trees and decided to switch on lizards.

I loled.



Yea lol. They wiped out few races, forced Dragons to hide, killed the Divine One, bring the world to chaos, but!
One Dragon Knight pnwd them all!
COMMON SENSE. There is a lot of it.

What? That makes no sense!

They were summoning their bloody MASTER. Chaos and the fate of everything they were doing depended on this bloody summon... And you're telling me they didn't send everyone to protect their only chance of victory? Their only chance of success?

Well, Black Ring is an organisation of idiots then! Idiots? Nah! Retarded foolish idiots with no brains! Seriously! They probably come from the city which can't recognize Superman!




As I've proven before, Black Ring is too stupid to be able to do such a thing.




Yeah. Instead of bothering to make an explanation that makes sense, Larian just went "Whatever, we don't give a crap. Too much work to make Elves and Dwarves, so we'll put a stupid unconvincing story instead."



And my D2 DKS still didn't come I think it'll be here before Wednesday though.

I hope they will fix this mess in div 3.

Seriously, if somebody from larian is reading this, call up a Meeting and decide what really happened to other races, okey?

And let it be logical explanation (by logical i mean believable)

I doubt they will come with something interesting, unless they can explain why, how and other questions in my post. Because, currently it makes ab-SO-lutely no sense and contradicts everything we learnt in DD1.

I will be very surprised if they make an interesting, convincing explanation. Probably they will ignore it and in DD3 there will be Dwarves and Elves again, appearing in the same way they dissapeared : without sense or convincing explanation.

"I thought you were extinct Elves?"
"We got better."

Official quote from Divinty 3: Ego Elfonis

I believe that they can come up with something convincing if they really try. They are intelligent group.

Kein
Yea lol. They wiped out few races, forced Dragons to hide, killed the Divine One, bring the world to chaos, but!

I'd think dragons leaving (Patriarch wasn't hiding) had more to do with humans turning on them than anything the Black Ring did.

One Dragon Knight pnwd them all!
COMMON SENSE. There is a lot of it.

You mean like pretty much every other plotline of RPG games, fantasy books, many movies, etc, etc?



GabeN;
They were summoning their bloody MASTER. Chaos and the fate of everything they were doing depended on this bloody summon... And you're telling me they didn't send everyone to protect their only chance of victory? Their only chance of success?

The Divine One took out the protection for the summoning at the end of Divine Divinity, but not in time to stop the summoning. After that the Black Ring was content to leave the child in his care, and sent a witch, Ygerna, to start awakening his powers when he was old enough.

After Damian walked in at the end of Ygerna's execution (having helped with her Black Ring necromancer father's experiments on children) he ran away, found the Black Ring and came back at the head of an army. Damian ordered everyone to leave the Divine One to him, and followed the Divine a short distance away from the main battle to the rift temple.


As I've proven before, Black Ring is too stupid to be able to do such a thing.

Evil organizations do all kinds of smart things between games (and movies, etc). It is only during the game that they wait for you to reach a certain point before attacking, send out weak minions to deal with you and then gradually send out increasingly stronger opponents, etc.


I doubt they will come with something interesting, unless they can explain why, how and other questions in my post.

As Pall said, that wouldn't be hard to do, if they have not done so already.

You think too much and miss the point - there is no facts we can rely on.
You can play with your imagination as much as you can.


Ookay.
Dragon Age. To kill hordes of darkspawn we gather the army. The Army even.
And when I see an epic battle where not just one Warden, but tons of his allies fighting darkspawn - I f*cking believe in that epicness.
Not laughing.

You don't get the point. I don't care about witches. I understand why they haven't "helped" Damian AFTER Divine One hasn't killed him, but I don't care about this. This ISN'T the thing that makes no sense.

EVERYTHING depended on the summon - WHY hasn't Black Ring sent EVERYONE to protect summoning? Not only Josephina, Iona, etc., but everyone? They had more members, yes?

So, why the whole Black Ring wasn't there? Why weren't they protecting their only chance of victory, change they fought for for years? What's better than meeting their master after so many years? They could lose status, power and potential reward by NOT being there when he's back. Even worse, Divine One could just kill the baby! Possibilities are endless.

Besides, they even KNEW Divine One will come. Why wouldn't they send everyone they had to protect their only chance of victory?

Answer nr.1 - because they are imbeciles.
Answer nr.2 - because Larian though it was shmart for great dark wizards to not protect their only chance of victory
Answer nr.3 - both

Your talk about Ygerna and Damian just... doesn't matter. It has no point. It doesn't connect with my questions.



How does this talk connect to Dwarves gloating that nothing can reach them in their city, and Elves having multiple cities and them both being "beaten" by the Black Ring?

The problem is that they do smart things between games, and nothing smart in games.

Please, please, ewerybody calm down.

There are many plotholes in game, yes, but larian will learn on their mistakes and surely come up with something.

If ,after war, there are still great, unexplored forests, Elvenkind probably is hidding there. blaming humans for all evil.

Dvarves could hidden entrance to their halls with illusion magic or using some sort of trick like dwarwes in Arcanum.

Since lizardsmen are giant lizards, humanity hatren of dragonkind could fall on them to, and if in rivellor are still great, hard to explore(for humans) swamps ,then lizards can simply live there ,hiden, waiting for better times.

And many, many more simple explanations.

I really doubt that black ring would manage to exterminate others, elder than humanity, and more powerful races like that(snapping fingers).

Kein;
You think too much and miss the point - there is no facts we can rely on.
You can play with your imagination as much as you can.

Your premise, in part, was that it didn't make sense that the Black Ring could be strong enough to force the dragons into hiding and yet weak enough a dragon knight could do so much damage. I proposed a much more logical assumption than yours.

Assuming the dragons left because of the Black Ring is just as much playing with your imagination as thinking it was a reaction to the formation of the slayers.


Dragon Age. To kill hordes of darkspawn we gather the army. The Army even.

So your character/party isn't instrumental is saving the world? You don't start off weak, get strong and win the day?
If your party dies the game keeps going, the army gets formed anyway and the darkspawn army is defeated? If you sit around doing nothing, someone else solves the quests and gets everyone ready?

Being part of an army is certainly a more plausible scenario, but if your choices and actions are not instrumental in the outcome of the game, you might as well be watching a movie. If your actions are what determine the outcome of the game, there isn't really a huge difference between it being you alone or you with an army.



GabeN;
EVERYTHING depended on the summon - WHY hasn't Black Ring sent EVERYONE to protect summoning? Not only Josephina, Iona, etc., but everyone? They had more members, yes?

Maybe they thought the defenses they had in place were more than enough. Maybe they were fighting on multiple fronts, and did not want to abandon other areas or projects. Maybe they didn't care if a bunch of imps and a few Black Ring members got wiped out as long as they delayed long enough for the ritual to be completed. Maybe they thought the Divine One was a diversion, and if they sent in reinforcements they would leave themselves vulnerable to the real attack.


Even worse, Divine One could just kill the baby! Possibilities are endless.

There are endless possibilities Larian could have implemented to make sure the game was impossible to win. The Black Ring attacked you once in the starting cutscene, why not send the whole army to wipe out Aleroth when you are still on level 1?

Larian ended D2:ED with your character encountering a minor setback. Apparently some people don't like games like that, and before FoV was announced many people complained loudly about the ending; imagine the reaction if your character always fails, gets killed and the bad guys win.


Why wouldn't they send everyone they had to protect their only chance of victory?

Because it is a game.

Also, a minor point, but it wasn't their only chance; they summoned an aspect of their master before and were defeated (DD background story), so they would try again if they failed that time.


How does this talk connect to Dwarves gloating that nothing can reach them in their city, and Elves having multiple cities and them both being "beaten" by the Black Ring?

Are you saying that the dwarves believing their city to be invulnerable makes it so? Historically such beliefs have generally proven to be incorrect.
The Black Ring couldn't possibly drop poison gas over a forest or elven city like they did to Broken Valley?

You may not like the fact that there are no dwarves or elves in the game, but it is hardly a stretch to think it possible the Black Ring could have wiped them out, at least in the regions we can visit in the game. If the war threatened their homelands, or there were serious conflicts with the humans, many of the elves and dwarves could have simply withdrew from human areas, and the books in the game are referring to the ones who decided to stay behind or who couldn't get out in time.



Pall;
Please, please, ewerybody calm down.

Everyone is calm, AFAIK. The discussion couldn't even be classified as an argument.


There are many plotholes in game, yes,

The issue is with design choices people don't like. It is hardly a plot hole that an organization can start a war and be quite effective, and yet 50 years later be vulnerable to an attack in a specific area out of their control. Also of great importance is the fact that Damian cares more about something else than he does about a few Black Ring members in Broken Valley and the fjords. For all we know he filled the place up with incompetent people he wanted to get rid of when he heard the main character was coming.

Lol people, have you ever heard of the saying "too many chiefs, not enough injuns"? That's what this Forum is turning into. Everybody is an expert story teller and a game designer, but nobody knows how to play!

If they'd hurry up and release the Xbox version of DKS in North America I'd happily suspend my part in all hypothetical game design discussion.

Raze:

I was not talking only about war and black ring, but newer mind that.



Oh, but it will be, it will be...

If all goes well.






If not, we just have to avoid the 'Being Hit On The Head' lessons room...

Do you have a proof that I'm wrong or not? That's EXACTLY the point. Where is the proof we an rely on.
"Tits^W Post it or GTFO".


You do. That's how RPG is done mostly...


Oh c'mon.
This is way too silly and way fat and even you must understand. I believe.

The game is made for player. He must be the center of everything, the action/reaction of env. must depend on his actions (but that does not mean the RPG must be all about gameplay). This is like.. obvious? Why do you question it? To change the direction of the convo and avoid the point I stated?
C'mon, stop doing it, your tactics pretty primitive to use on me and it never gonna work. I have a troll experiecne as well :P

So, back to the point. In D2 we alone kill the whole army and nothing can stop you. In DAO, we (TEAM!) gather the and no on can stop you.
Rsolution: I believe in DAO because it more realistic. Games don't need top reflect real life, but being more realistic and plot-orientired is always good (as far as it in balance with gameplay). That's why D2 plot and realism is sooo cheap.


That's "stupid evil Sauron" syndrome. The bad guy SITS THE WHOLE STORY IN HIS TOWER DOING NOTHING and start to act only @ the end. And always loses coz IT'S TOO LATE :P

Hmmm ... intresting topic
Who have the greatest wish to be "the-one-who-is-right" ?

Okay, Divinity II has no Elves or Dwarves ... and we can make "suggestions" (in the equivalent forum/thread) for Larian ...

Suggestions?
Or just have fun doing an endless conversation here?
LOL

Most story-lines that pass around here feature a list of plot-holes and things we know we should explain. I believe plot holes are present in all games, books and movies and that it's quite easy to fire away at a plot and expose these holes just by keeping on asking why. We try to come up with answers for all of the ones we think of ourselves, but sometimes we miss out on some obvious things. Or, and that's often the case, we had an explanation for something, but then during production it gets cut away so we can still make our deadlines. For instance, in the original story-line of ED the elves and dwarves were very much present, that is, before the entire area where they were living was cut. But then of course you get the problem that there still might be references to it, and that causes a new problem, which isn't always addressed.

What I'm trying to say is - yes, we are aware of certain problems in the storyline, and yes, we think of how we can fix those.

Yeah, Divine One was a diversion... The one sent by gods themselves, the one they saw getting "killed" at the end of the ritual.

Real attack? And who could do it? Everything they did was in secret, except the Council of Seven (which died) nobody knew about it.

Shrugging off Divine One in such circumstances hardly is intelligent.




Eh? You're mistaken. Black Ring attacked that ghost-female thingy, which then marked The Marked One (and two other guys).

They don't have radars, they couldn't know that one of "heroes" was in Aleroth. That guy on a Dragon also didn't knew it, it was a coincidence he met the Marked One.



Stop spoilering! It's a thread, where I said that I didn't even play D2 yet.



Yeah, great thinking bad guys, wasting half of your forces to fail at summoning their master (sword was the only remaining part of Chaos Lord AFAIK), instead of sending everyone and either winning or losing.




STOP SPOILING!

But you may have a point with the Dwarves. Though, Elves had multiple cities, I believe.





No, please, don't try to make Larian use "team" in their game again... Or we will have another thing like Beyond Divinity.




Just as I thought! Deadline, the enemy of all gamers... I still remember that unreachable area in Divine Divinity, east from that lake in elven forest... With pyramids, you could still get there though.

But, you cut off these areas... Why didn't you re-add them in Dragon Knight Saga, maybe at cost of some areas added in flames of vengeance? I guess finishing Dwarves and Elves was harder, though.

Can we expect other races to be added in Divinity 3, or second expansion if you'll make one?

Second expansion could be useful in tying up loose ends, but i guess we need to wait for div 3 to see with what larian come up. (I trust you larian, don't disappoint me).

I trust them too, but I have to complain about lack of these races to have better odds of getting them back in D3. Besides, I wouldn't be complaining if the goddamn D2 DKS already was in my house, but no, the courier is a slowpoke.

And if the second expansion for D2 will be again like DKS (I mean, you can't get the addon alone - you have to buy it with the first part. Well, for me it's good, I haven't bought Ego Draconis and I gain from not having to buy Ego Draconis to have everything)

How about some kind of Elven Dragon Knight for D3? :3 And, of course, a possibility to rape Elves.

Elveees.

Kein
Do you have a proof that I'm wrong or not? That's EXACTLY the point.

Do you have proof you are right?
I claimed my speculation made more sense to me than your speculation. That was it.


The game is made for player. He must be the center of everything, the action/reaction of env. must depend on his actions (but that does not mean the RPG must be all about gameplay). This is like.. obvious?

That was my point. The player is always going to win out against the opponent (if they finish the game) regardless of whether there is a single character or an army, or the enemy is an evil cult or invading aliens, etc.


Why do you question it? To change the direction of the convo and avoid the point I stated?

You said it didn't make sense that a single dragon knight could defeat a section of the Black Ring, when they were powerful enough to do a great deal of damage in a war 50 years earlier.
I was trying to point out that that is a common element in pretty much all RPG games, many movies, etc.

The plot line can be more or less plausible, but there is always going to be vulnerabilities the hero(s) can exploit and there are always going to be obvious things the bad guys could have done to improve their security.


So, back to the point. In D2 we alone kill the whole army and nothing can stop you. In DAO, we (TEAM!) gather the and no on can stop you.
Rsolution: I believe in DAO because it more realistic.

DAO is more realistic in that regard. My point was that in principle it is still pretty much the same thing.



GabeN
Real attack? And who could do it?

Zandalor could have gotten off his but and helped you out more than once...


Shrugging off Divine One in such circumstances hardly is intelligent.

If they didn't, you would not have been able to win the game.


Eh? You're mistaken. Black Ring attacked that ghost-female thingy, which then marked The Marked One (and two other guys).

Oops, that was orcs, or something, not the Black Ring attacking the character at the start (it has been awhile since I played DD).


That guy on a Dragon also didn't knew it, it was a coincidence he met the Marked One.

No, he was searching for you. The Black Ring assigned him some search area, and yet there was no followup when he simply disappeared.
BTW, as dumb as the Black Ring may have acted, the other two Marked Ones were worse.


Stop spoilering!

I'm sorry. I didn't think you'd consider it a spoiler just saying everything doesn't go perfectly the entire game. I was writing the post in between doing other stuff, and I just wasn't thinking later when I mentioned the poison.

You must have read a weird Russian translation of LOTR.


Pretty much this.

Anyway, I hope we will be seeing the other Council races in Divinity 3 (?).

Lar_q

Yeah, and as always - if is being fixed after, not before :<

Raze

My words make more sense to me. And some other ppl in this thread who share the same point.
You lose. EOF.


First, you agree with my point that they are different and DAO more realistic, but then you say "they are the same".
No doubt your words make sense only for you.

virumor

Actually, I read all available translations + even the original (not all books tho).
Anyway, "stupid Sauron" isn't my make up. Meme lives since the book was released.

@Kein :
Raze lose ... and you won???

What have you won, if I may ask?
A kiss from the Succubus?

Raze wins in my heart!

It is not important who win and who lose here.

It is important to show Larian studios their mistakes so they can fix them, improving story, fixing plotholes and game mechanics. Let's give Larian helpful hand, so we, and all gamers and fans can be winners with great rpg game (div3) as prize.

I'm so tempted to think up a few answers to that, but I suspect they may not be entirely conducive to continued polite discussion.

Kein
My words make more sense to me. And some other ppl in this thread who share the same point.
You lose. EOF.

So... I need proof to support my arguments, but you just have to reference someone that holds the same opinion as you?
In any case, congratulations on your win.


First, you agree with my point that they are different and DAO more realistic, but then you say "they are the same".

The plots are different in the way they are executed, but essentially the same in design. In both cases the player saves the world. Having an army along helps with atmosphere, etc, but is simply cosmetic; the actual plot mechanisms are the same.

No doubt your words make sense only for you.

Being hit by a two ton truck is worse than being hit by a one ton truck, but they are still pretty much the same thing.



Pall;
I just came here for a good argument.

Axel, you're my hero for saying that

Raze:

Brilliant!

And kudos for your endless patience.

Oh, nice.
You provided an argument? Can I ask you...

an argument for what? For your fantasies and make up? Since when something you said become an argument? Did you even follow the convo and your own words, lol?

To make an argument, you need rely on facts.


It is fun how quickly your speculation and assumptions became an argument >_>


Yeah, right. I love when ppl use "simplify conception tactics" :p
let's use your weapon against you: Call fo Duty. We're a soldier here, we play as a soldier, we play the role. CoD == RPG? In the end, we save the world (and not really metaphorically) too! Same design, huh?
We can simplify every game and find tons of common things that differs just a bit. But that is! This is the case of everything - that difference. The more complicated and different some aspect, the more it -- sorry for teh tautology -- differs. DAO's plot/stroy is different. There is a lot of tiny differences on the DAO's picture with uses teh same canvas (genre) as Divinity 2 does. But those differences is what makes DAO special, different from Divinity2 and better in some cases. Can you die in Divinity 2, saving the world? No. Can you save it with group of your friends, having an army behind your back, that trust you and put their lives in your hands? No.

And you telling me that level of realism of those two game equal, lol. Sometimes, the blind fanboism is like a fog - you can't see anything.

Joram

The game makes it pretty clear that Dragon Slayers are primarily responsible for the near-eradication of Dragon Knights. Patriarch states it, many characters state it, many books state it. So, it is not a leap to think that the Slayers may also be responsible for the deaths or driving away of Dragons. In fact, it seems very likely. It is their business to slay dragons. Therefore, I don't see how it is pure unsubstantiated fantasy for Raze to say it was more likely that Slayers drove dragons away rather than the Black Ring. Ultimately, you're both right, because it was the Black Ring's treachery that caused the humans to turn against Dragons anyway.

What's baffling to me is how actual points get so obscured by explaining to each other what the other said, how to make arguments, endless descriptions of what the other person is probably thinking. There is at least one person in this thread who always seems in combat mode.

Ahhh... the delights of utter irony.

Kein
You provided an argument? Can I ask you...

I meant argument as in defending a position in a debate. See, for example (sorry Flixerflax ), definitions 2, 3, 4 and 5 here. Arguments can certainly be made with facts, but facts are not required (definition 4 mentions statements and reasons used for or against a point, as well as facts).

When debating a scientific theory, or anything else with an absolute truth, facts are of course the best means to form an argument. Even then, where there are theories without enough empirical evidence to prove or disprove, scientists have certainly argued that the elegant beauty or simplicity of a mathematical model means there must be something fundamentally correct about it, etc.


To make an argument, you need rely on facts.

Speaking of which, where are the facts that the Black Ring drove the dragons into hiding?
Or is this just "your fantasies and make up"?

Or are hard facts just not involved when debating two different suggestions about the reasoning behind something that happened in the back story of a game?


It is fun how quickly your speculation and assumptions became an argument

The process of putting forth speculation and/or assumptions and debating them is an argument.


Yeah, right. I love when ppl use "simplify conception tactics" :p
let's use your weapon against you: Call fo Duty. We're a soldier here, we play as a soldier, we play the role. CoD == RPG? In the end, we save the world (and not really metaphorically) too! Same design, huh?

Not that it matters, but some people do use that definition and argue that any game where you take on a role makes it an RPG. Obviously this is broadens the category enough that it becomes meaningless, and most people have additional criteria (character development / customization, levels, stats/skills, etc).

Back on point, I was not simplifying anything. I made a comment that the player controlling a character or small group to save the world against a powerful opponent (usually accompanied by a large group) is pretty common in RPGs. You responded that DAO is more realistic because you gather an army for the final battle. I agreed that that was a more plausible scenario than D2:ED's plot (though there are valid reasons for some stuff the Black Ring does or fails to do that may seem illogical when first encountered).

However, when I argued they were still essentially the same thing, what I was trying to explain was that the army in DAO is essentially cosmetic. The army doesn't do anything without you, unless you finish quests or trigger certain plot points where something is meant to happen, so there is nothing fundamentally different with the plot mechanisms. It is still you saving the world, and the army may as well be a pet or NPC you can add to your party.


DAO's plot/stroy is different. There is a lot of tiny differences on the DAO's picture with uses teh same canvas (genre) as Divinity 2 does. But those differences is what makes DAO special, different from Divinity2 and better in some cases.

We may actually have come close to an agreement... I was arguing that the differences were tiny, not that those differences couldn't have a significant impact on the game overall. In theory I can say having an army is more plausible, but when actually playing a game, my first reaction whenever I get help is pretty much always "Hey, you bastards! Stop stealing my experience points!". Maybe when I build a new computer and play DAO (no Xbox demo, so obviously they don't want me to buy that version) I will appreciate the subtle differences as much as you do, but I will still very likely argue that the fundamental 'save the world' plot design is essentially the same.


And you telling me that level of realism of those two game equal, lol.

I never commented on the level of realism of the games overall, and always conceded that gathering an army was a more plausible plot device than going after the bad guys alone (though there are reasons in D2:ED why this was more effective than you would expect initially).


Sometimes, the blind fanboism is like a fog - you can't see anything.

Really?? Is it impossible to honestly hold an opinion that differs from yours?
Some people can debate a topic and simply agree to disagree...

Do I see two duelists here?

Nope, just bored, waiting for DKS. I don't think there is much life left in this particular argument, though, unless someone comes up with some new suggestions.
For that dueling caricature, I've got nothing personal against Kein (or the other way around, AFAIK) and welcome anyone else joining in a debate, on either side, if they have something to add.

Raze, Raze, Raze... There never was a debate that I could see. He obviously has problems with the English language and not able to understand what you're saying. His broken English and almost nonexistent grammar attests to that. On the other hand, I may be totally wrong and the chemicals in his brain maybe playing tricks on him; who knows? Regardless, you're wasting your breath trying to get through to him.

There's also another aspect which was self admitted not long ago. You know what, I'm putting my money on this aspect:

That comment about people joining in on a debate was a reference to the definition of a 'duelist'. For this particular argument, it started off with little broad appeal, and dropped from there.

I don't mind trying to explain my position a couple times. If that process eliminates misunderstandings or gets a point across (as in understanding, not necessarily agreement), then great, that is the purpose of forming an argument; if not, then it still clarifies things.

Boring, "waiting" for DKS ??
Me too, waiting for patch of DKS (Xbox), here in Belgium

But why boring?
Go play again Divine like I do, hardcore style (= one kill - NO save/reloads!).
For me it was a real fantastic adventure for eight months long But beware of all that is D-evil in the world of Rivellon !!

@Kein : "Bonne Appetit mon amie"** (with the price you won, that tasty pie )

** have a nice meal my friend !

Mornin'! Oh you're still here? Hmm...

So how about we all agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Kein, we get it, Bioware does it better, we're sorry, we'll work harder for the next game, don't worry, Dragon Age 2 is coming out soon, there will be plenty of meaningful, well thought out back-stories about elves and dwarves and fairies you can delve into, you won't have to think about the dreadful plot holes of Divinity II anymore.

No lies, please. We were talking about:

and you said your speculations is "make more sense" and now "became a argument". Since when and how? Did i miss sumtin in teh convo? Why my/other ppl speculations not an argument then? Why only yours? it's simple question and requires simple answer - since when your speculation became an argument.
I bet you have an answer for that :P

Axel
I know, Lar said even they accept the fact that D2 plot has many issues. Too bad fanbois don't listen even to the devs >_>

Regarding DA2 - no, it sucks. It will suck. Why bother making good RPG, if you can simplify it for casual cattle and get x100 times bigger sales on consoles? What, PC gamers? C'mon, we all know there is no such thing as "pc gaming" anymore.

The only thing I don't understand is why Larian uses such cheap tactic as well. I mean - really, why? You're independent studio, 90% of your budget is a TV media and kid games/programs/other multimedia stuff/etc. You HAVE a freedom to do things "right". Why not use it? May be I don't understand something? I never had such experience, so, I really would like to know.

So how about an expansion pack to add in all the things that were cut while we wait for DD3?

I hate elves and Dwarves.

Elf = sissy that wear tights
Dwarves = ugly midget that act tough.

YUCK!

glad they're not in the game : )

If so i want your reasons on why...

I think you are in a minority there

I was wondering the same thing. Not exactly a minor project, but if much of the work is already done, perhaps it could yet be brought to life.

Ever the optimist.

You and me both.

Kein
No lies, please.

That was not a lie. In fact, the statement in question should be blatantly obvious to anyone who knows (or cares to read) the definition of the word 'argument'.


Why my/other ppl speculations not an argument then?

The process of explaining / defending / advocating a speculation is an argument, as I explained earlier. Really, see above.


Why only yours?

I never claimed I was the only person who could argue a point.

Write a sentence saying the Black Ring started winning the war and that was why the dragons left, or that even if they left due to the formation of the slayers, the Black Ring were ultimately responsible, and that would be an argument for your speculation.


it's simple question and requires simple answer

The simple answer has already been given.

Since there is nothing left of the original debate (a somewhat grandiose term for what happened), and if you honestly don't understand my previous post I have no idea how to make it clear, I'm done with it.

(Reviving in name of Chaos and Flame)

Great to see that my thread has had nice discussion!

But, even Larian admitted it's a bit of a plothole. But since the only thing I've met about Elves was a description on an item (or two?), that made no sense (Elves died long ago? Uh, that's impossible, unless you call long ago a few years/months long ago, which is when Damian came back?), then it would be easy to just remove the offending description in a patch and give us back Elves in Divinity 3. Because, nobody said a word about it, even Zandalor (knowing the wizard from Divine Divinity, if Elves/Dwarves truly died altogether, he'd make a comment like "Hopefully Dragon Knights won't share the fate of poor Elves, extinct and slowly forgotten."), there's no book like "History of extinct races" with Elves in part XXX, or something.

Darn, it would be great if we had to make the council again in D3, or if we were a part of it. Hopefully we won't play Dragon Knight again - that would be horrible. It was great to meet the Divine One and see how much he has changed. It would be great if when meeting Dragon Knight, he'd keep the sarcasm and sharp responses he has shown not once in Divinity 2, but paired with wisdom (unless Divinity 3 action wasn't that far from Divinity 2, then he can remain as he is).

And it would be great if they made romance options. There was one in Divine Divinity (and even an option of gay sex in brothel! Great, more choices = better rpg) and currently all damn rpg's have one, usually for all sexes and sexualities (Shepard is an exception, his homo romances were cut off the game ).

I think it was 50 years between the end of BD and start of D2:ED/DKS.

There was a Divinity 3 discussion topic awhile ago where I suggested a re-gathering of the council, as well.
FoV was described as the conclusion of the Dragon Knight's story, so we will not be continuing with that character. I wouldn't mind the dragon form, or something like it, staying in for the next game, though.

Personally I don't see much point to romances in RPGs, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have that option.


As for another add-on for the game... I'd love to see all the stuff that got cut put back in, but since Larian has already started working on Divinity 3 I doubt that will happen.
Nobody but the German publisher put out a DVD release of FoV, and North American publishers were initially reluctant to take on FoV and DKS until sales results came in from the rest of the world. If enough game resources could be used from DKS to keep an add-on under MS' DLC size limit, then I guess we could hold out faint hope of another add-on, but I don't think publishers will be more interested in the prospect of a second add-on than they were with the first, unfortunately.

GabeN:
Hehehe... only if they would made it fit in action rpg style of this game( no kissy-kissy candy thing) then it's okay with me.

And I personaly hope we will play as dragon knight, but some new one, not hero from div 2.


and there are many question not answered in DKS with I hope will be answered in another expansion/DIV 3

And remember Larian Studios this:

If FoV really was the conclusion od DK story, then we won't have another addon.

Romances are nice in RPG's. Especially with Elves.

I'd love if Divinity 3 made us play as a... Dragon Elf. No, not that kind of Dragon Elves - how about Elven Dragon Knight? That could be awesome if done right. Yes, we need pointy-ears changing into dragons. Definitely.



It made little sense tbh, because... Berengar is a light wizard, isn't he? Why did he randomly turn her into stone? His explanation made little sense, even for a "rhyming wacko".

...But then it kind of fits his character. He also attacked us instead of negotiate, until he had no chance of victory in a fight. Yeah, it's believable, I guess.

Besides, you could turn back people from being vegetables, why not the same from stone?

I think that her voice actor was unavailable, so they cut her off the game. (that's the only explanation I can think of for COMPLETELY cutting her off, not even 1 new line with her. The same happened with Bill from L4D in Sacrifice campaign - they didn't have his Voice Actor, they killed him off) I didn't miss her. In fact, she got what she deserved.

What!? Noo... maybe.... still I hope she will be back somewhere in the future. Simple stone-to-flesh spell/scroll/potion will do the trick.



Oh yes, especially with very friendly female elves.

As I remember, Berengar was a witcher
I think you meant to say Bellegar

Unfriendly ones too.

I honestly hope they won't add any bullshit like "elves" and "dwarfs", they might as well make the main character Frodo.

What about orcs and lizardmen? I want Kroxy back!

Good old Kroxy, it would be nice to meet him again.

But I doubt that livespan of orcs is that long.

Not to mention warlike nature of orcs.

Not to mention warlike nature of orcs.

Ah, but Kroxy is a priest, don't you know.

Ah.. it was some time ago that I player Divine Divinity, good memories.

Kroxy doesn't die. He gives and feigns death, ahah.

...Or male ones.




I still remember this part! xD


Kroxy CAN'T be dead. He just can't. Awesomeness of this level can't just be... wasted!

We never learnt anything about livespan of Orks if they don't die by a sword (or at least, I did not). Hopefully Larian will be wise and gives us Kroxy back, hopefully with that funny Shaman and his Giant. Orcs should definitely be back with da biggest WAAAAGHH! ever.

I'd love if in DD3, we could free Orcs and other slaves of the Black Ring.

My dream! Who's going to add that point in suggestion box?

(what about the orc that got that stupid axe beneath Aleroth? :))

It's better to not have any other axes than the correct one, or he will smash 'em all. He's a mean one, but also funny.

As a Mage, you could kill him and his group though - the skill that made thorns appear out of ground somehow managed to slow them down to normal speed if done correctly. A bug, I think? Then you have had to be patient with meteor. This gave me more experience than the Orc would give me for the axe, I think.

But yeah, that Orc would be also a great addition. And Elves. And Dwarves. And Lizardmen. And more Imps that don't want to bite our head off (in DD2, I think only Zixx Zaxx Almost Wise was friendly, but he had awfully unfitting english accent, especially for an Imp)