When Swen said "kids, including my own, don't watch this," I assumed it was normal stuff that like yeah, isn't age appropriate for early teens by stupid american standards, but is also just being a human being so that warning (I assumed) was intended for puritanical nonsense situations.

Then I watched softcore bear stuff with one of my kids. He's 14, I think if he gets the humor he'd try to hide that because I'm sure that's what I would have done in a similar situation at that age.

Little dude loves D&D. DMing is a lot of energy that I just don't have, and a computer game that makes that happen is rad. In EA he's been able to play with me making sure it's all as close to age-appropriate as possible.

I really, really hope the content filter options are straightforward and profile-dependent. Little mate loves d&d, loves the game, and keeping it age appropriate hasn't been difficult in EA, but I missed the mark today.

While I agree that some scene went quite far, you have to consider this :

After two warnings and the appearance of naked people on screen, I think you only have yourself to blame there.

Yea, they did warn as the above label states... and Sven said there is a modesty fiter, that i asume is going to remove all said options... i cant see what else such a filter will affect ?

Now that you mention it, there is indeed a censoring option for sexual content in the form of a leave hiding genitals. It has been datamined some times ago. The thing is, Larian really wanted to show the whole spectrum of relationship there, so they most likely disregarded using it. It would have been great for this option to finally be made official after the extreme scene we saw.

+1

Sometimes i feel almost sory for ESRB ...
It try so hard to rate games, to warn people in advance what to expect ... just to be completely ignored. -_-

I agree with the others: content warnings are there for a reason - maybe listen to it next time?

It's literally an M rated game. Though to this day I still can not fathom why people think strong scenes of disendowment, torture, and death. Are better for children to watch than nudity, and sex.

Can't say I disagree. The whole bear thing just made me laugh, but the various scenes of mutilation shown in that PFH were at least disturbing to me. Both are not intended for children, but one is a kink the'll get one day, the other is always distrubing.

Before this topic gets inevidablely locked ...
I think there is one important question that should be asked ... and it was brought to my atention by Chubblot on Twitter:

no animals were 'harmed' making this video?

So, according to the comments, no one watched this with their kids, which was the question of the thread by the way, but everyone felt an obligation to make some blaming rituals here?

Yes, because why would I watch a M 18+ game with my kid who isn't 18. Personally I think it was dumb to ask.

Shit happens, you know? Do you always cross the street on green? May be thats not the greatest of parallels, but surely you can get the general point?
You are the guys who made this thread into this, not the OP. There was no crying or demand in his initial message, no discontent, no question even just some feedback to share. By starting your finger pointing and blaming the only thing you do is come out as rude and bitter people, imo. Feel free to disagree.

You can't let someone watch 17+ content and then complain when it contains 17+ content.

Yes.
And even one step futher ... no matter what light glows, i also allways fist LOOK at the trafic, to make sure they are slowing down with intention to stop.
Since i kinda get used to living in last few decades ... i see no reason to end it prematurely.

As you wish.
I do ...

I wouldns say there was "no discontent" ...
It seemed to me like OP didnt really expected this to be seen, and give little to none credibility to Swens warning ... its good that OP amited it was their own fault (by sentence "i missed the mark") ...
But in general you can claim that we all are agreeing with this statement, rather than poiting fingers and blaming. :P

Also "no demand", thats also kinda bold statement ...
Especialy since OP openly express their hopes about content filter settings ...
And probably will be quite shocked, after they find out that the scene we got was most likely WITH modesty filter turned on (hense, that covenient blade of grass, hiding Halsins penis) ...

As for "no question" part ...
This may be my lack nuances knowledge in english ...
But the question in topic title seems purely rhetoric to me ... or at least i cant find any reason why would anyone gather data about people who are watching this with their kids.

And finaly, us being rude and bitter ...
I dont indend to take away your opinion ... but personaly i dont see there single rude or bitter coment, people are just factualy poiting out all other marks OP "could have missed" aswell.

"Who else watched bear sex with their kid?"

I did not watch bear sex with my child.

Oh yes I do disagree. To let your child watch 18+ material and then be surprised when that material is shown and that it isn't "age appropriate" (his own words). And then, hoping for a content filter. Isn't "shit happening." Also I'm not pointing my finger, it's his child not mine. But don't act surprised when unsuitable content in a game that's not marketed to the kid age bracket is shown off. So feedback: Don't let your under age child watch 18+ content when they're underage, and be surprised when they see that content.

Rag, I know that you like to dissect every word, with that approach I can see how the initial post can come as a complaint/demand. I guess we'll have to wait for the OP to clarify some things, but personally, I had an impression that the thread wasn't meant for such things, rather finding out whether people were caught off guard by this. I usually follow the rules in my life, but there are times when I can go for a shortcut or dismiss some warning that proved to be fickle in my previous observations. Same could happen here.

I honestly doubt OP will clarify anything ...
Can be wrong tho, obviously ... im still just (let me check, oh yes) a human after all.

Thats not even anything against OP, i just believe that this topic served its purpose and there is nothing more to add on their side.
(again, that is just mine impresion)

Same as with us neprostoman ...
You have your opinion, i have mine ... i believe we understand each other, and disagree with each other ...

Wich is totally fine by me.
And i believe it will be with you aswell?

Sure! I am not here to force my opinion on anyone.

I honestly think the stuff with the bear was inappropriate too, and should not be in the game. And yes, yes, I know Halsin is still a humanoid, but it still depicts bestiality.

Imagine there was a character who ages backwards (Benjamin Button), for some reason looks like a child, or perhaps was able to shapeshift, including into a child.

Yes, that person would have the mind of an adult, could consent and so forth, but an adult scene with that person still would be CP, just with extra steps.

It is not something I would boycott the game over, but I do think it is immoral and should not be depicted. I can understand the outrage, if children were in the room

Is it an outrageous opinion to have that I think it was really fucking weird and want to joke about it on the forum but I don't think it should be removed?

I just wish they didn't show it in the showcase. That you had to look for it. Because now I have to explain to people to whom I'm recommending the game that this is not a bestiality simulator.

Yeah i made the unfortunate decision to use the last panel from hell to showcase the game to my gf as i have a spare key so this was her first impression, she said wtf i dont want to play a game like this, what is wrong with you, i was like uhm... wait till the gameplay, its not normally this bad, sorry larians sence of humour is fkin stupid, and yeah they ruined it for her and for me, i was fairly upset they went down this road as i wanted it to be a fun evening for my gf she had waited all day to watch it with me and she was left thinking the combat looks cool but shes not in to a sex and dating in dungeons simulation, i convinced her eventually that this stuff is optional i dunno why larian is showcaseing it like a main feature

I actually don't care much for that scene, but I wasn't surprised. After them hinting at 'that' Halsin scene, I was sure, something like that could happen.

Yes I personnally don't mind that there are all kind of sexual fantasies, and I do like that there are a lot of possibilities
Especially those days we are in some kind of puritan framework that censor everything, but the main showcase of the romance part was a homosexual sex with a giant bear... Well I find it weird. I don't judge people but I don't think such a glorious game like BG3 should put that in the very forefront.

I still love so much the work that Larian put in place in this game, but I don't understand why they took care to display it so much. Also I was finding Halsin extremely cool, but I cannot unsee that and this character feels super weird to me now...

I also had the problem with my wife, she saw some weird stuff and I was feeling like she will complain about this game, and wonder if I like this !

I had to make the screen so much small to hide what was happening (bear sex, the torture scene with the psycho people with the scalpels and others).

I totally understand that there is some dark stuff happening there, and once again, it's great that they could go deep in the good side / bad side, and I have no problem that it exists there, but I really don't think that it's the main feature of the game, neither that it should take so much importance in the very last panel from hell, that was expected to be some kind of celebration of many years of intense work and waiting.

Anyway, I'm still super excited for the release in 3 weeks and it's legendary work overall, thanks !

My beef with the 'incident' is - either do sex or don't. Going the naughty, giggling teenager road is pathetic.

We didn't get much context but the scalpel psycho scene seemed overly violent and pointless.

I think for me a lot of what Larian does is simply to be outrageous, and it often ends up feeling out of place/silly because there's not much else behind it. I could honestly see Sven saying to his team "okay, the internet has spoken, they want Halsin, so let's go all out, make a bear sex scene too! That'll be hilarious" and his devs just saying "...yes boss".

I still think CDPR is much better than Larian at doing adult content, simply because they don't play it off as a joke most of the time.

Larian could be doing some big brain shockvertising. Games journalists having a field day with bear sex.


Also, Sven isn't the only chaotic member on stage. Crystal always looks like she's waiting for a prank to actualize and is suppressing her laughter. Anyone could be the agent of chaos.

I really have no beef with the scene, and I totally get why it was in the showcase - as others have mentioned, gaming news have jumped on it. I think yesterday I saw three kotaku headlines about it.

As for trusting the rating and Swen's verbal note... I'm really jaded about that stuff. So often, that kind of stuff just means "warning: boobs". When they started the scene, and we see Halsin's ass, I assumed that's what Swen's note was about, "hey, two dudes are about to get naked and have sexytime," which gets content warnings for some reason, and my mind boggles why we hide normal human stuff from nearly-adult kids

I wasn't complaining about the scene or its inclusion at all, at least that wasn't my intention. I was just ruminating on the weird situation I was in when my assumption about the content warnings was completely wrong

Okay, but could you articulate what is actually wrong about it? Lots of people will jump up quickly to say 'this is bestiality and that's wrong', but I'd like to ask: what are the things about bestiality for which people condemn it, and having defined those, are those aspects Actually present in this situation? They're not.


No, it quite literally would not be. That's the point.

Your comments sound like the kinds of comments I've heard from people who would straight up tell me to my face that I should not have a sex life, or engage in intimate activity, because of my stature and appearance (I am a very small and quite petite woman) - people who would attempt to invalidate my right to be acknowledged as an adult and a sexual being, because of something that they are mapping onto me and calling a problem.... and THAT is far more of a violation than a druid and their partner engaging in some consensual kink-play that is functionally just magical cosplay.


I'm actually just unhappy that they're playing it off as a silly joke.


Also, is bear literally the only wildshape that Halsin can do? And does he literally lose control of it, have it come out when he doesn't want, and lose his reason when in it? For real? What kind of absolute shit druid is he? Is he actually just an acolyte first year fledgling druid pretending to be a proper one?

... no seriously, Halsin, bear's not my thing... but if you could manage a wolf maybe? I'm only a very small halfling after all....


OH, Oh, Oh! Is Halsin actually a werebear, and is just hiding the fact?

All this stuff was optional, even the violent nurse incident. You needed to hit dice rolls 15-20 just to get those scenes, even then you could out right just fight them. Or don't at all because you could skip the place they were in. Discussions like this just leads to censorship, because of outrage. It's a 17+ game the the ESRB already rated. If you're that sensitive to this type of material, don't partake in it.

Dude?

I just want to make Animal Planet jokes and about how awkward it is to recommend this game.

Dude what? It's literally a scene with a man that transforms into a bear, and then It cuts away to a squirrel. People our outraged over nothing. They act as if it's hardcore porn. Plus all these choices are optional. South Park has done worse than this.

If I remember correctly, Halsin is actually an arch druid. He get referenced as "the bear" in some places of the game. So I guess that is his signature wildshape.

Dude, you've made 5 posts in this thread all of which contribute nothing, and are just "who cares, don't like it ,don't do it". If YOU don't like the idea of this thread, feel free to not participate in it.

And if you don't like what's in the game feel free to not play it.

This was my main problem with it too. I'm just going to hope/assume the other options are less jokey.


You are not the first to suggest this. Would be interesting, wouldn't it?

Personally can't wait for the Goblin Sex Pest Mod.

Alright we're losing control of the thread fast.

Can we bear the bare bear bear when he bears on another bare bear?

Why is this in the game? How will it improve the gaming experience?

Hmmmm.

You wrote to a guy who said he doesn't care about the scene being sexual that he shouldn't be sensitive about the scene. You and him are basically on the same page now, but you are still making arguments..

Dude! (I'm in the chain now!)

What? I didn't even quote anyone when I wrote that. It was a general reply.

No Dude then

Edud!

He is an Archdruid (according to the wiki) which makes your points even stronger.

sorry I'll stop now lol

That M rating cannot stop 7th graders from viewing anything and everything that's going on in the world, who in turn share it with elementary schoolers.

That footage will be seen period. What's worse, Dismemberment, blinding, and torture because its "fun"; "Here you try!". If anyone thinks that if you commit such acts in a game, that it will not effect you in real life, you are pitifully ignorant.


Now I am an adult. I bought the game, I can navigate it, and can use my own good judgment to make a good play through and enjoy what just might be my last ever video game.

There is nothing to praise Larian for, as this genre appears dead. All their hard work? Seriously? There best efforts I will never see, because it certainly wasn't made for me.

Any D&D series I played was about having the tools to stop evil, not become it. What I saw in the Shar cultist scene, made the Manson family look like the Brady Bunch family picnic, and Sven is laughing maniacally. "Hey, lets go kill Jaheira and the Harpers, cuz they aren't fun".

The man has made a trip round the bend, and ain't commin back.

"What are those scars on Astarion's back?"

"Dude, everybody who has sex with bears gets those scars. It's a dead giveaway."

*

I found something off about the bear sex scene. A room full of "influencers" laughing heartily. I sometimes feel like we're a sick society hanging on by a thread. I don't think I'll be making that choice.

Could always be worse. We could be in Roman times and get our kicks off of watching people murder each other or get murdered by animals in the Colosseum.

What a bizarre post.

Firstly you should probably avoid personal disparaging remarks about the head of the company whose forum you're posting on. It's in poor taste.

Secondly, you clearly haven't played many D&D games as even as far back as BG 1 and 2 you could go completely evil and do some heinous things. In Wrath of the Righteous you can be a lich or even worse a swarm who consumes everything including his/her former comrades. In NWN Mask of the Betrayer you could be a soul eater who consumes the very souls of sentient beings, lorewise a fate worse than death by an order of magnitude. Going evil has been an option in these types of games for a long, long time.

You'll be able to play a goodie goodie, calm your knickers mate.

Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware there is no evidence to support the claim that violence in games is harmful

Do you think the animators had Bloodhound Gang on repeat when they were modeling that scene?

"You and me, baby, ain't nothing but mammals,
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

These are some really outrageous and unsubstantiated claims you're making here, buddy.

First of, at the beginning of the presentation Sven, warned you and others this was not a game for kids, its also M rated ERSB 17... Secondly, are you implying people should not be allowed to make movies, write books or content that handles topics in certain ways ?... or in this way a game that handles the darker aspects of humanity and how it corrupts, Sven even debated this, as a angle in the game, they wanted sex, power greed as something for us to battle as a morality... right wrong, again you were warned, both by Sven and the ERSB 17...

If you want any of the other main stream products, there are plenty of those shit games being made, now please leave this creation alown... thanks you

There was this comment on the stream, something like: "It's not bestiality if it's a druid."

lol

And I was thinking, wow. Shape changing druids aren't real. It sounds like someone was bending over backwards to come up with ways to excuse away animal fantasies, as if it's alright... you know, in that circumstance.

I have seen some debates about this aswell ...
And i agree with them, closest thing we have to this, is Furry fetish.

Bizarre?

My logic is irrefutably sound. Kids are tech savvy, see everything, and emulate the behaviors they see. What planet do you live on?

I have no allegiance to Sven. He was banned from Tik Tok for a reason, again my reasoning is not from some bizarre island.

Not played BG1 and 2? I don't recall such a backlash from ANY D&D title before, and if so, not like this. On a number of fronts actually. Larian clearly doesn't have the pulse of the community.

This forum has few posters and for every complaint here you can be assured there are proportional number of like minded players in the community.

There are millions of fans do the math.


Just calling someone bizzare is not an argument and quite lazy. If "goody goody" means I understand right from wrong than I own it.


Finally this isn't about me. I work with autistic kids (of all kinds). Even the non-verbal intellectual disability kids are surprisingly intuitive.

Sven aired his crap publicly. Things that should have stayed locked behind choice walls. Hell I didn't want to see such childish nonsense.

Your logic is that because kids have computers, nothing adult should exist on them.

The other poster was right though, it is really crappy to personally attack the boss ( or any of the people working at Larians) in their own forum. You can say your piece without getting personal.

We shouldn't decide on what's "good" or "bad" in an M-rated game depending on whether kids will see it or not.

Back in the day on Sega Genesis and arcades we had Mortal Kombat where we had fatalities like ripping a heart from the chest.

Torture and dismemberment happen in horror movies.

Grand Theft Auto games allow you to run over pedestrians and kill indiscriminately.

Kids will always get ahold of media they shouldn't have access to. Or we think they shouldn't have access to.

It's not up to the companies to keep them out of the reach of children.

Gets warned not to let kids see it. Let's kids see it.

Its not just crappy actually, its against the forum rules. I advocate for everyone to try and calm down on the matter, is it really worth such a heated debate?

Real one. Adult stuff existed long before BG3. Never saw your dad's adult magazines? Never saw the Alien rip our someone's face on tv? Never took a sneak peak inside a sex-shop? Come on, children are exposed to a lot of things, there is no stopping it, as a parent your job is to explain things, not cover their eyes.

A lot of games got backlash from showing adult stuff. Remember Mass Effect? Hell, I don't live in the US and still heard the Fox News... news. What difference does the brand make? D&D was shunned as a satanic cult 40 or so years back, talk about backlash.


Eh, wouldn't really bet my money on that. We clearly won't settle this one, but the only people following games on forums are the ones who who have strong feeling about them - usually negative ones. The vast majority of people don't care enough.

Ok, as a mother to an autistic kid this struck a nerve. "Think of the children" is not an argument. Period.

He gave fans what they wanted. Funny how democracy works.

My discomfort wasn't with the scene's sexuality or the use of an animal form. It was the juxtaposition of a smaller, to my eye cowering, figure and a partner who abruptly turned into a thousand pound bear and said that when he's aroused he has trouble controlling himself. I'm pretty sure I'd have much the same reaction if my character had agreed to a romantic assignation with Bruce Banner, and he abruptly turned into the Hulk. Larian could have utilized the bear form in an encounter that was playful and/or tender (affirming the underlying humanity and mutual concern of both partners) rather than rooted in what felt to me like physical intimidation.

Perhaps this scene was designed specifically for Halsin and Astarian. However, as someone who views consent more as an on-going dance, rather than one partner's just saying "OK" and praying that the other partner's admitted lack of control doesn't result in them receiving serious physical injuries. What's funny as a cut scene between npcs, isn't necessarily funny when you subtitute a player character hoping for romance into scene.

"Things that should have stayed locked behind choice walls."


Ima quote myself here. All this could have been avoided with discretion.

Sven should really make a public apology, both to the community and abroad, for showing content that should have only be seen by a niche audience and then only if they somehow unlocked it for their own viewing.

I'm not sure why we need to be nice to Sven just because he's the head of the company, that's silly. He deserves as much respect as anyone else here, which is to say, we shouldn't be resorting to personal attacks regardless.

This would've been amazing.

Hopefully, since there are other options to choose, the scene can be explored in ways more like this one.

People joke about Sven and the team all the time. As you note, most of those jokes are not personal attacks or accusations though.

I was personally disturbed long before the bear.

Seeing the wanton encouragement for acts of cruelty was kind of insult to injury (and creepy), after not getting any effort put into a paragon play-through story (an absolute first).

This wasn't a small shift. It was like gravity started pulling everything skyward.

I don't think Sven needs to apologize for anything.

My thought process at the time: this will be tamer than the minthara scene we already have, because streaming, so it's likely no big

My action: say to the kid "so what he's saying is there will be nudity and maybe some sex, your choice if you stay or not"

I wasn't fussed about the screwing, he's 14, he knows what screwing is, and depictions of loving, consensual intimacy are positive if they're not too explicit.

But animal stuff, like with BDSM, toys, etc, is in my thinking a bit much for kids (or maybe most folks for whom this is still all theoretical).

It literally is locked behind a choice wall. Two, in fact. The player specifically has to select the dialogue option: "Don't apologise. I like it." followed by "Yes. Change back again. Let me have the beast...and the beast have me."

The audience *chose* to select those options.
You *chose* to continue watching after it was clear that option was being selected.

Sounds like Larian implemented it exactly as you wanted, so I'm not sure why there's a need to apologize..?

What about the fatalities in Mortal Kombat? That's far more brutal and encouraged and celebrated than anything in this game.

What about being able to play as Nazis and Stalinists in Paradox games? And being able to do actual genocide?

What about first-person shooters that encourage you to engage in mass slaughter or terrorist attacks? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Russian

What about the tragic fates you can deal people in Dishonored 2?

Why is this game different from all other games?

Call me old fashion... but I don't think bestiality should be included in any form of media. Especially in as positive of a light as it is in this game. I don't think it should be a choice, locked behind a choice-wall or anything else like that.

I also don't think things like pedophilia should be in media either - regardless of if you have a choice to ignore it or not.

Don't care if there are some weirdos are out there who get off on animals having sex with humans. Just like I don't care if there are some weirdos out there who get off on having sex with kids. It's a line that I don't think we should cross. Could really care less if some dope on an Internet forum disagrees with me or not.

I totally agree, there is no reason at all for personal attacks. We can have different opinions and it is totally ok.

Tommy thinks we should have sex with 10 bears. I think we should have sex with 0 bears.

We compromised and had sex with 5 bears.

I am not a fan of all this compromising.

I actually believe that Mortal Kombat has turned into torture porn and should have the same advertising/selling restrictions as hardcore pornography.

Well, I respect your consistency.


Just as a general comment to everyone else complaining in this topic:
I didn't like that scene anymore than you did. I was complaining earlier too. And joking about it. I just think there's more room for nuance in how we should process our feelings about this issue.

My dude an entire class in DND is built around your mommy or daddy being a magical creature that could be anything from a powerfull wizard to a dragon, to a god of murder who impregnated women so he could kill their childeren.

Not to mention dragonborn as a race themselves. A little late to close thachildren.

Also it's a M game and you were warned multiple times.

Strong disagree. The more I've thought about this, the more I think omitting this possibility would have been a poorer choice.

We have a lot of ways to explore the characters' inner lives, and for most people, that includes sexual expression. "Do druids use their wildshape forms when they screw?" is a totally valid question in a universe with magical druids. And the answer is almost certainly "some do, some don't, and some don't care very much."

Not including the possibility of a druid using their wildshape form when they get down feels like intentionally ignoring part of the world, and a part of the world that would be very important to the characters, simply because it's super kinky.

The scene should be there. But a more specific content warning in the PFH would have been appreciated

It is curious how the boundaries get moved a little here a little there, until one day you (we) wake and ...

So if we created a magical world in a video game where a character may, in theory, be compelled to rape a child... you would be okay with vividly showing that on the screen because it is important to show what that character may or may not do?

Which is to say - is there any line that we can draw on this or can we just show anything at this point and it is okay?

The nuance has been sorely, sorely lacking. People who like me, have zero problem with the scene, think I'm complaining about it. It's really frustrating.

Yes there is a line, and it's easy to answer. We draw the line at consent. Any media that has non-con sexual interactions should be clearly identified as such. Consent is where we draw the line

Edit: this is also my response to the question below about necro. The corpse can't consent, and treating a corpse like an empty husk stripped of its humanity is desecration and is obviously not okay

You need to get checked.

Why not add necrophilia? In a world where raising the dead and necromancy is a thing, why not raise that corpse over there, woo it with “speak with the dead” and get down with some hot backdoor entry corpse action. Simply because it’s super kinky.

Yikes.

So then showing someone sexually involved with a consenting six year old would be okay then? Or multiple people using a consenting six year old? As long as they consent?

Yes our society evolves all the time, is this a bad thing?

Yea, let's stop this right here. This isn't going to go well for you.

Folks, I confess I haven't even had chance to read this thread, as I've been trying to answer as many of your questions about the PFH and the game while it's still fresh in my mind over in that other thread I've created.

I hope everything here is being kept constructive. If there are any issues here, or indeed elsewhere on the forum while I'm still trying to download my brain, can I suggest that you PM me instead of (or as well as) reporting a post? We have a bit of a bug we can't yet get to the bottom of that means I don't get post reports directly, so The Composer has to forward them to me and I'm not sure he's home yet (he was at the event too!).

Thanks for keeping things friendly, even when discussing topics we might feel strongly about.

Oh no.

Anything but that.

lets leave kids out of this... its about consenting adults

Erm, okay, I don't even know the context of this, but that's not sounding very constructive or friendly to me.

As per my note in the other thread, I'm getting tired and hungry so you don't want me to have to come over here

It's actually about a human being and an animal. I am unsure if you saw what was depicted or what this thread is about.

And what was said is the line being drawn was consent and only consent. I am asking if there is a limit to what we can depict or not.

For some reason you seem uncomfortable with children being brought into it, just like I would be. I think that is pretty self explanatory. Just like I think it is pretty self explanatory as to why we shouldn't be depicting people having sex with animals.

There is a term called an age of consent and it is governed by law differently in different countries. In my homeland it is 15 years old. This would be the line for me.

EDIT: I double checked, it's 16.

Like I told you in your private message...

I'm perfectly fine with you banning me for saying that pedophilia and bestiality are wrong/wrong to depict in media. If you would like to do so then I suggest that you consider the moderation policies of this forum as opposed to my stance on the issue.

Also - if you would like to ban me for discussing moderation policies in public then you are also free to do so. But you are the one who just brought it up in the post that I am quoting.

There is also (shockingly) laws against bestiality too.

6 year olds can't meaningfully consent. If it was shown then it'd be rape, pedophilia, etc. (Which is bad)

An adult member of sapient/sentient species--human, elf, dragonborn, devil, dragon, lizardfolk, halfling, or a elf temporarily transformed into a bear--can consent. That's the difference.

I have a strong feeling that if you get banned, it won't be done for reasons you think it will be. And look, I don't want you to get banned! Come on..

I think what Boblawblah was referring to is that you're apparently asking for an explanation of why we have the concept of an age of consent, and needing that explained isn't a great look, and that's how your slippery-slope argument comes across

yes and that bear is a human, with a adult consenting mind... exactly as the dragonborn, thats a reptilian, that courts the barbarian... this is DnD, there is alot of animal looking races, and you name the half race, but its likely exist, and im fairly sure it not a stork that delivers them... the point is, it has nothing to do with fysical form, its all about two adult fully sentient being consenting to what their doing...

Otherwise we need to ban all romance option involving dragonborn, couse their actually reptilians, while Halisn is a shapeshifting human in bear form... ?

I am kinda curious if Karlach will lay a egg....

Elves, dragonborns, devils, dragons, lizardfolk and halflings are not real things.

But bears are.

What if it was an adult elf that transformed into a six year old - would it then be okay to show on screen?

+1
Plisko, it was really nice knowing you. Let's not end it here.

That is undoubtedly true, yet we are not dealing with an animal in a classical sense here. I think context is important, even though it sometimes is not, at least for authorities
But considering this is a game, not real life, I'd give context a tad bit more credit.

This is why I asked if we put an adult magically transforming to look like a six year old if it would be okay. I understand the context.

I mean I don't think that would be okay. I think that is abhorrent. Just like I think depicting intercourse with a bear is abhorrent and has no place in media.

If you guys need to take what I am saying out of context in order to ban me and permit people who are promoting bear-sex to post, then like I said, I am cool with that.

Ok, the last thing I want to fuel is a back and forth. I didn't join the forum to make arguments, and I've said my peace.


Now there are many games that encourage just about anything. Before now that hasn't been D&D, and that is a huge contributing factor here.

From the original titles, Eye of the Beholder, the 2000s titles, and DDO its been fun, engaging, and a reasonably safe form of entertainment.

That's a lot of history to retcon. Tolerance and respect is about understanding others' point of view.


Again, if you enjoy that gameplay, I didn't have to know about it.



I really only posted in this thread because someone took the time to start it and I saw them getting flamed, although my viewpoints are sincere and genuine.

Wrong again. It’s not about consent.

The whole porn industry is build around consenting adults engaging in all kinds of activities, from vanilla to super extreme.

It doesn’t mean this content should be depicted in media products just because they’re rated M. A hardcore porn scene depicting consenting adults would shock the audience of an Avatar movie, for example. And would in no way improve the movie.

Isn't this what people already say about romancing halflings and gnomes. Do you agree with them?

Consent in fiction occurs between the author and the reader.

I also feel like this would be inappropriate and terrible. I also think that you have the right to have bad feelings about it and express your thoughts and opinion. I don't know the details of your private chat with RQ, so I can't tell if you are really getting offered a ban just for this opinion. But just letting things cool down does not mean abstaining from your opinion on the matter, right?

This literally has nothing to do with the question I asked.

No - I do not equate being short with being six years old.

Don't equate magic with being 6 years old

This is actually a trope in Vampire fiction, that might show up in the game. Interview with a Vampire, comes to mind, I think, I've only seen bits of the movie on T.V.
There's also a Batman villain from the animated show that touches on this, Babydoll I think is her name.

We've got a lot of diverse opinions about this topic. Given how heated it can get, can we all agree at this point to continue this contentious and socially charged issue in as civil a manner as possible? We are getting into severe topics, and severe topics require forgiveness and tolerance of other viewpoints, especially with a bit of tone self-policing.

Can a dragonborn have sex with Shadowheart or Gale?

yea, as i said a few times now, consdiering the half races in DnD, i doubt the stork delivers them... aslong as Larian keeps this between consenting adults, im oki with it...

I don't really need to cool down... I'm not worked up, dude!

I think depicting bestiality in media is wrong. Don't think Larian should have done it, even behind a choice-wall. Don't think they should have shown it on PFH even if they warned people about mature content. Do I hate them now and think they are the worst people ever in the history of life? No. I think they made a mistake - a mistake they will stand by. I can respect that and move on from it.

But when you show something like that you are obviously going to have people sharing their opinion. I think my opinion is just as valid as anyone else's... and not only do I think it is as valid, I think it is just blatantly and obviously correct. So I see no problem in sharing it. I do not think I have said anything offense. If I get banned for it, then so be it! I guess I will have to do my BG3 discussing elsewhere.

[/quote]
Consent in fiction occurs between the author and the reader.[/quote]

I can’t see how this is a reply to what i said but ok, i guess.

You know I've just read the previous page and I now regret it. I think some of the comments there are maybe bordering on stuff that might be triggering for other members and I think maybe people should be mindful of that in their hypotheticals

This also isn't what I asked or the scenario that I gave.

Can't I just say...

Don't equate magic with bear sex?

Someone in this very thread said that the scene Larian depicted was triggering for them.

So is it okay for them to do it?

amd will one of them lay egg ?

So if he turned into an owlbear you would be cool with it?

Bur nobody is saying that that is ok. What they are saying is that if you are an adult but are short as a six year old, you should still have right to have sex.

Man can you please stop making up the pedo scenarios im finding it really creepy, maybe just take 5min and move on from this thread for half an hour to calm down, understand your point and i understand where ur coming from, i dont really like the bear scene either so im going to actively avoid it, this thread is something im intrested in so just asking in good faith could you tone it down please mate

+1

... I agree?

I'm not saying short adults shouldn't be able to have sex. I'm not sure how anyone could get that out of anything I have said.

I'm saying depicting a six year old having sex, even if it is an adult that magically transformed into a six year old, is wrong. Just like depicting having sex with animals, even if someone magically transformed into an animal, is also wrong.

This seems like a reasonable statement.

When "not wanting to see bestiality in media" becomes controversial, something might be wrong?

It's cool man.

I also find the subject unsettling and sickening.

Just like... wait for it...

Bestiality!

What I meant is that your opinion is not going anywhere. The chance of you changing someone's mind in the discussion taking place in a forums format is zero to none, partially thats because the topic turned out to be so divisive and personal.

You would think so.

I think I am seeing two strains of thought, philosophically, in this chat and I think we can focus more on the forms of the arguments than on arguing with each other:

On the one hand, this makes sense WITHIN the universe it occurs and is not bestiality WITHIN the universe it occurs, given it occurs between two consenting adults under temporary magical conditions.

On the other hand, from OUTSIDE the universe WITHIN our OWN universe, it is unarguably a portrayal of a serious sexual taboo in its appearance at the very least.

Can we agree on that point?

It. Is. A. Magic. Bear. In a magical, nonexistent world. The bear is an adult participating in a consensual adult activity. Context is so important, don't ignore it. Everything can be taken out of context by mistake, but you are doing it on purpose.

You *think* you're right and you are not stating your opinion - you are calling for censorship. Opinion would be if you told us "I don't agree with this, I wouldn't show this to my kids, and I refuse to choose it.", instead you go "It shouldn't be in the game because I think it's wrong!" when in fact it doesn't show anything illegal. See the difference?

I understand the context. I am not taking it out of context.

This is why I proposed another sexual taboo that makes a lot of people uncomfortable in the same context or scenario. Not to 'trigger' people, but to point out that sexual taboos do not suddenly just lose all meaning because we put magic behind them. Magical bestiality is not okay. Just like magical pedophilia is not okay. Just like magical 'consent' or 'force' is not okay. I don't really want those things depicted in games.

Also - I do think we should censor bestiality. So... yes, I am saying that. I am calling for the censorship of bestiality. I do not think it should be in media we consume. You got me?

I watched the stream on my own, though there was someone nearby I felt it would be really awkward to potentially speak with about this particular scene, so I dumped the volume by a lot and switched to another tab for its duration as it's also content I find distasteful. I mean it was pretty obvious what was coming.


Then maybe you've learned a lesson? Err on the side of caution, consider warnings to have meaning and not just pull a Barbossa: "it's more like a general guideline anyway"?

Hunnid.

That's...a fair response. I'd say No, mainly because it's too close to a real-world issue. Sexual abuse of children is a real and terrible issue that exploits their vulnerability and messes them up for life, while sex with bears (from what I know) isn't a significant problem.

There's a degree of separation in the fantasy that is comparable to sex with dragons, devils, and other fantastical beings. Of course we don't live in a vacuum, and must consider the impacts on the real world. However, showing a sex scene with an elf-turned-bear doesn't get anywhere near the bounds where it may approach causing real-world-harm. Sex with an elf-turned-bear is much closer to the fantastical "monsterfucker" situation--wanting to have a novel kinky sexual experience--that is ultimately practically harmless.

I suppose the more appropriate follow-up question is: what if Halsin turned into a dog? Does that change it's "okayness"? Imo it's more iffy, but a wolf would be *more* acceptable than a dog.

Well, too bad for you. Unless this particular kink will get illegal worlwide you can't really take it out of any media. All you can do is not consume it.

Eh, I think it's a fictional world where people can turn into animals. So it's no different, to me in this game or any fictional setting, where you can have sex with someone that looks like a demon or a dragon. It's not just a bear or whatever. It's a person.

This statement reveals that you have no interest in discussion or debate, in which case why even bother to post at all. Just start a petition to remove all age ratings from all creative content and ban everything else because obviously someone inappropriate will see it anyway and that is exclusively the fault of the maker. Jesus.

The difference is that even cartoon depictions of kids might be illegal, depending on where you come from.
And i feel that it is quite sick to even begin to compare kids to animals. That's like comparing shoplifting with massmurder

I think the answer is just not to show that stuff in the first place. But again - that seems rather obvious to me and the fact that it is controversial is strange to me. I also find it odd people are acting like I am some authoritarian because I do not think we should be depicting bestiality in media.

I see people asking about Dragonborn, Lizardfolk and all of that stuff. Owlbears. And I get that. They are looking for that 'gotcha' type moment. I think Dragonborn and Lizardfolk in this fantasy world are even different still than something like an Owlbear, because they are essentially humanoids. They are clearly designed and based off of humans. Where as an owlbear is an amalgamation of animals and thus still is essentially bestiality.

But I don't think we need to get into those types of semantics or hypotheticals.

My stance is depicting bestiality in media is wrong. Don't think they should do it. Don't think it should be in the game - even as a choice. Don't care for the context of it being magical. Just like I wouldn't approve of magical pedophelia. Don't think those things are appropriate for a movie screen, video game, TV show, etc.

On top of that I don't think that should be a particularly controversial stance to take. But what can I say? I am the king of controversy these days with my crazy "video games probably shouldn't have bear sex in them" takes.

What if he turned into some other fantasy animal on four legs, that doesn't exist in our world?

I'm not comparing kids to animals.

I am saying that there are sexual things we should not be showing in media and using two examples of those sexual things to show that I believe my position is right.

If I say that shoplifting and mass murder are wrong - that means I think they are both wrong (which I do). It doesn't mean I think they are the same thing.

My problem is people stepping on free speech, there is alot of horror books, sexual fantasis in movies, etc... and ultimatly Sven told us one of the main things in BG3 is us having choices, to wrestle with unmoral dark choices, thats the first thing... secondly the game is and have been labeled ERSB 17 Mature, with strong sexual content... now when a creator warn you, its been know for years... and you still keep at it... that frankly pisses me off...

You are bascially walking inside a store, grab a frysing pan,demanding that the shop clerk change the handle to the frying pan, couse it upsets you... ? i dont know in any other terms how i am capable of expresing this, not every book, or movies is for everyone, and again, we been told on several occasions and warned, its not for Kids, and that the game has dark themes and STRONG SEXUAL CONTENT...

its like the kid your telling not to stick the siccor in the cureency jack, and they still do it...

Okay folks, I’m getting reports about this thread and I don’t have time to read it right now.

I really just want to have a break, something to eat and then get back to letting you know what I discovered at the event yesterday that perhaps didn’t come across at the PFH.

In my view, there is zero reason for discussing sex with (actual) bears or animals, and certainly zero reason for discussing sex with children. If that’s what’s going on here as I hear, then I need that to stop right now.

I’m going to check back in fifteen minutes and if I see any posts I don’t think are in the spirit of forum rules, or if I get any more reports about this thread (PM me please), I’m just going to lock it until I have time to moderate it more actively.

I’d appreciate it if you can help make that unnecessary.

So... saying bestiality is wrong and there are some sexual things we shouldn't depict in media is now trampling on free speech?

I never knew not wanting to visually see bear sex in media was this controversial of a topic. I'm like a regular Mussolini over here now. I am going to rename my forum handle to 'Bear Sex Hitler' so people know to beware my freedom hating ways.

The obvious answer you seem to be purposefully ignoring is that, in our society, we have collectively agreed that children under a certain age are not capable of giving consent because they lack the proper context and emotional maturity. This is the exact same reasoning that is applied to adults with certain disabilities, animals, and corpses. If we discovered an island with Neanderthals living on it, and they were conscious, sentient, and with an average IQ of, say 90; would your arguments apply?

That'd be fine by the same logic: it doesn't do real world harm (because the fantasy animal doesn't exist and thus isn't commonly abused in our world) and the participants can meaningfully consent. It'd be marginally better than a bear I suppose because of the additional degree of separation, but both would fall well on the "is okay" side of the line.

For the sake of everyone's sanity, let's reduce the usage of real-world parallels and analogies and try to (temporarily at least) take the game as is.

There is alot of things i dont agree to in many books movies and games... if i dont like it, i dont buy the book, if i already bought the book, ill put it down... as i said, sometimes people write and express things that is not for you or me...

Secondly, you use the term besitality, again its not, as that would imply it was a animal, there is to my knowledge no animals involved in any sexual acts, there i though a sentient Dragornborn(reptilian) that courts the tiefling barabarian Karlach, still curious if she would lay a egg... and sencondly we have the druid halsin that shapshifts into a bear, but he isnt a animal, its a shapeshifting fully sentient adult... and DnD lore, we have alot of halfraces, unions between all kinds of exotic races all from animal looking to mythic creatures like demons and angels... im fairly sure the stork dident deliver them... ?

No bestialty is not ok, but an adult male that has magically dressed up as a bear is. They are different things, even if you don't want them to be.

Again this is just me, but context matters. It's not a regular bear. It's a person that can turn into a bear. Not to be accused of being a pedo but what if I made a character like a gnome or halfling but he didn't have a beard. Would this person look like a child? And if so would it be pedophilia but the person is actually of age?

I will refrain from further responses, m'lady.

Sorry if my stance against depicting bear intercourse has caused you any unnecessary grief.

If it helps at all - The Red Prince was my favorite companion in all of DOS2.

I think there's a really simple answer to the "magic to look like a kid" scenario. It won't be an acceptable answer to some, for obvious reasons, but I think there's a very simple answer.

We don't need to create a logically consistent rule for this case because it will never happen. Nobody, at least no mainstream game developer will ever make a game where consenting adults use magic to look like kids when they have sex. I don't need a logical answer to this question because it will never need to be answered.

I'm fine with wildshape druid sex. I'm not fine with kidshape sex, even though the heuristic for what's okay and what isn't doesn't rule it out.

I'm not bothered by that inconsistency because it's not a question that will ever come up outside discussions like these.

Maybe another way to say it is there's a broad spectrum of okay to not okay, and things like wildshape druid sex are in the not-okay-adjacent area of transgressive stuff. The never okay area includes both actual bestiality (because it includes all non-con stuff), and it includes the magic to look like a kid example.

If anyone wants to make an argument in favor of the magic-to-look-like-a-kid, I'd be interested in hearing it, but I'm reasonably confident there's full agreement that that's not okay, even though by the heuristic that accepts the wildshape situation, it should be. It's fine that it's logically inconsistent.

In defense of this thread:
It appears a lot of people are freaking out online about the bear scene.

Would it be okay if Halsin just put on teddy bear ears and a plug with a little brown tail? What about a full furry costume?

yes because it still looks like a human.

Right guys, I’m still getting complaints so I’m going to take the unusual step of locking this thread until I am able to first catch up with what has been discussed already and then until I am able to monitor it actively.

I’m not going to be able to do the latter and talk to you about the rest of what came out of the creator day yesterday at the same time, so I’m going to create a poll to see what you’d rather discuss first. Give me a few minutes.