Larian Studios
Posted By: Lostsheep OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 28/02/05 01:07 PM
Since I've enjoyed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> a great deal and I'm now thinking about my next game I was wondering if anyone out there had any views about whether I might like Gothic or Sacred?

Or come to that anyone suggest any other game I might like?

PS.not finished <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beyond.gif" alt="" /> yet,just planning ahead.
Posted By: Balder Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 28/02/05 05:24 PM
I played only a DEMO of Gothic 2 and it looks like a GREAT game! I would have bought it, but my computer is little bit pathetic... Gothic is First Person Role Play, detailed world, a lot and lot of NPCs, yet Interface is little confusing...

Sacred is too much hack-n-slash! It is good game, but only for Multi-Player. ALso, it has a lot of bugs that can ruin game. There is a bug in main quest that can only be solved with cheat (as far as I know, but they must have been published some patches since then)... If you like DIABLO and other Crush, KILL, Destroy RPGs you'll like this game. There is a horse to ride <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would recommend Gothic! Both will be ok <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 28/02/05 08:37 PM
Sorry to say that, but you are definitively in the wrong forum-part for that. Please post such topics only in the "RPG Chat". It's designed for that.

Lynn, please move this thread !



Alrik.


Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 28/02/05 09:37 PM
Until then: You like D&D games? Then you sould try Planescape:Torment out. Great game, awsome story, great character interaction. A lot of text though. And it's quite old, so the graphics aren't the best...

Another game you should try out (IF you manage to get your hands on a copy) is Arcanum. Not the greatest graphics, but the rest of the game rules. Exept the extremelly hack-and-slash combat (there was NO tactics. At all). Otherwise a great game (funny and all). Allso check out Fallout 1&2 if you havn't played them. Allso an old game btw, but these are the best games I've ever played.

If you like story driven games, you could try out Star wars-Knights of the old Republic. Not too challenging though, and it's VERY linear.

Übereil
Posted By: Balder Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 01/03/05 03:52 PM
If you like D&D the best thing to do is to go to the nearest Hobby Store and buy D&D Player's Hand Book 3.5e and play D&D with your friends at the table! You'll see that you can spend hours and nights playing the game without computer!

About computer games, I suggest Baldur's Gate 1 & 2. Planescape: Torment as Ubereil said, TES3: Morrowind as the best RPG ever built for PC... You can also wait for a year and buy TES4: Oblivion, but the game will be available only for those with monstrous machines (Pixel Shader 3.0, RAM as big as normal HDD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)...
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 01/03/05 10:39 PM
I'd still prefer DSA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Sad that there are so few C-RPGs for that system out there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> www.thedarkeyerpg.com It's vry popular here in Germany (where it originates from).
Posted By: Lostsheep Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 11:09 AM
Oops,sorry about the wrong board thing!!
Thanks for the suggestions.
Been browsing net,can't make mind up.It seems some of the games suggested might be hard to get hold of now though.
Has anyone actually played Gothic games or Sacred?
Posted By: Balder Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 12:59 PM
I played both Gothic and Sacred... Gothic 2 was DEMO but it showed great potential! Sacred is too much Hack-n-Slash, and I don't like these kind of games... I like RPGs with good story, great mechanism and what is most important, good ROLE PLAY!!! Between these two games, certain winner is Gothic 2!

Btw. What is DSA? Never heard of thing? Where to find more info about the game?
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 02:27 PM
Our Sacred Thread. I know Sacred even from the time it was Armalion - an DSA-based game. Look at www.rpgdot.com for this. You can even find remains of Armalion in Sacred nowadays.

I've played Sacred, and although you *definitively* see in it remains of the full-blown RPG that should've been Armalion, it's too much Action for me. specially since the enemies respawn too much and too fast. The lovers of Action-RPGs (in the official, German-laguage Forum) insist on that being an essential part of Action-RPGs. I'm more story-oriented.

I also played Gothic I - the other part not, not even the Add-On, because I believe that I must have a new PC for that (I've got an old AMD Athlon 800).
I liked Gothic very much, because of its immersion and athmosphere. Also thre are quite a lot of German-language MODs out there for it (and for Gothic II as well). Ask Stone, he seems to know everything about it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


About DSA : DSA = Das Schwarze Auge = The Dark Eye, converted into English by SirTech as "Realms of Arcania". You can also found some bits about it at RPGDot. Official English-language DSA-site : http://www.thedarkeyerpg.com

You can learn more about it in this thread.

Armalion was planned as an DSA-based game, but was neverfinished, because Ikarion went bancrupt. No-one wanted to help them, which sheds light on an unpleasant chapter of the gaming industry. Instead, Ascaron bought up the remins and continued developing it - this time without the DSA license.

At the point the German mags began comparing it with Blizzards games someone must've thought that this was a good idea : Making an Action-RPG out of it. You could actually witness this shift in the official forum then. So I blame the German gaming magazines for turning Ex-Armalion into an Action-RPG. Some like it that way, I don't : too much action nowadays or my taste.

I'm not surprised that you don't know anything about DSA. It's quite common here in Germany, but FanPro (short for "Fantasy Productions", the company developing DSA) hasn't had a good hand in selling licenses in the past. Rumors say they wanted too much money for it. Guido Henkel, one of the guys behing PS:T was once at Attic, the company dveloping the german versions of the "Realms of Arcania" series. He said in an interview indeed that FanPro wanted too much money for the license.

LMK was another RPG developeed for DSA. It was the first RPG developed by Larian Studios, originally named "Unless - The Treachery" and while Larian teamed up with Attic, they renamed it into "LMK" "The Lady The Mage And The Knight" (German title : "Legenden der Magierkriege").
During dvelopment, they split, and LMK was buried. Attic wnt out of history, nd Larian began dveloping "Project C" which later became "Divinity". The "C" is rumored to stand for "cash" because they simply neded some at the split. "Divinity" was originally named "Divinity - The Sword of Lies", but german publisher CDV thought it would be a bitter title "Divine Divinity" ( ! ) and renamed it. From that decision on, CDV hasn't got the highest reputation here.

Well, that's the "Short History of Larian", and DSA and why they once were connected to one another. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

The thing that always makes me kind of sad is that the majority of C-RPGs seems to be based upon (A)D&D nowadays. I know I'm not right, bbut that's just my impression. The Wizards of thze coast - that's how I see it - clearly use this as an vehicle : Players of the P&P-version might well buy the C-RPGs, whereas players of the C-RPGs might be intrigued to buy the P&P-version. It's what I call "product placement" to me. I once wrote an article at RPGDot (which was heavily criticized and misunderstood at the same time) in which I wondered wjy they had to use the D20 system for KOTOR - in that article I wrote that theyused the (A)D&D-system for KOTOR and I got hammered upon because I definitively was wrong - it was the D20-system, of course ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> (With greetings to my intimate friends at RPGCodex <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> ) This month I read in a German gaing magazine that KOTORII uses the (A)D&D - system, and no-one complains about it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

(A)D&D dominates the market too much for my own taste. It might be a good system, but personally I don't like it - it's too restrictive for me. I don't really know what I don't like of the system, but I was "grown up" with DSA, and I found that system friendlier. It's a matter of taste, I suppose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I just wonder why theydidn't use a different RPG system for KOTOR. That's what I tried to say in my RPGDot article. Theycould’ve used a lesser known system to support it better, but no, it had to be D20 - because it’s o popular, I suppose.

I’d really like to see games incorporating systems from leser known systems. Like Midgard, for example (another system you might’ve never heard from). Because most RPGs are still made in the U.S. , they use what’s known there. For example a game about the american civil war might well sell there, but I don’t see any sens in selling it here (there actuallywas a game about it some years ago). On the other hand I’d perhaps like a game about the european “War of 100 years” (or so it’s called; here in Germany we call it the “Hundertjährigen Krieg”). Would it sell in the U.S. I I think no. And because of the fact that the european market is too small, developers sitting in America don’t develop thems that are known in Europe but not in America, I guess.

I’d like FanPro to incorporate such a “product placement” as well : Sell cheap licensed to developers to let this system be widely known outside Germany. Instead, they sem to rather want money over that - at least in the past. Interesting is that Chromatrix sells licenses for DSA-based games on cellular phones (which we call “Handys” here in Germany) - with some success, it seems.

Well, enough rambling, that is just my very personal point of view. No-one stops you from not agreeing with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Alrik.
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 04:09 PM
What is the difference between DSA and the D20 system? For the moment I'm not really interested in the history, just the system itself. How does DSA work?

And I read that old article of yours (MUTCH later, but anyway), and if I don't recall wrong, you wanted the original Star Wars system (based on the D20 system) instead of the D&D system (as you mentioned, allso based on the D20 system). This gave pepole the impression that you didn't really know what you were talking about. And it wasn't really clear that you were talking about D&D dominateing, because it was famous, you just seemed to be talking about minor things as useing one D20 system instead of another. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm defending the D20 system, cos I don't. I might not have any bigger problems with it, but my favorite system ever is the Arcanum system, mostly due to it's freedom.

Übereil
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 05:03 PM
Right, I was born in 1987, and I've never played table role play games. WHAT doesn the first edition D&D rules look like? And my question remains: what does DSA look like?

Übereil
Posted By: Tsel Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 05:18 PM
Quote

About DSA : DSA = Das Schwarze Auge = The Dark Eye, converted into English by SirTech as "Realms of Arcania". You can also found some bits about it at RPGDot. Official English-language DSA-site : http://www.thedarkeyerpg.com

AlrikFassbauer


The DSA information can be found here or in AlrikFassbauer's original post above.

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 07:25 PM
Quote
And I read that old article of yours (MUTCH later, but anyway), and if I don't recall wrong, you wanted the original Star Wars system (based on the D20 system) instead of the D&D system (as you mentioned, allso based on the D20 system).


Yes, indeed I would've favoured that one. But in the end it was only an example.

By the way, I don't think that West End Games' system was based on D20, becaus D20 was developed much later. Or am I wrong ?

Posted By: Tsel Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 07:32 PM
Your D20 answers can be found here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/d20-system


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />
The 1st ED D&D rules are my favorite
out of all of the D&D/AD&D rules incarnations.
(sigh...nostalgia)
The days back when the “Deities & Demigods” book
contained the Cthulhu and Melnibone mythos.

Back when you could exchange gold for XP
and you had side trades as a farmer, blacksmith, or whatever etc...

And playing the module “Keep on the Borderlands”
when it hit the shelf for the very first time.

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 07:54 PM
Well, the text says that the D20 system wasdevelopd around 2000 , but the system usd by Wst End Gamesist definitively older. And I never saw any text saying that they actually used a variation of the (A)D&D system.
Posted By: Tsel Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 08:10 PM
AlrikFassbauer >

Yes, the use of the 20 sided dice it is older than the year 2000, but then your favorite word..."Patent"...comes into play.
It is on "D20-System" where the patent is.
But D20 is simply a short for (Die 20 or 20 sided dice) system.

Here's the scoop on D&D:
D&D
Founded upon the "Chainmail system"

Oh, by the way, I like the DSA rules. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 08:57 PM
Yes, but in my article at RPGDot I meant the West End Games system. Now I know more about it : Look at these two articles : Unofficial History of the D6 system 1, Unofficial history of the D6 system 2. I didn't even know it had that name - "D6 system" - I only knew it as "the West End Games system". So in fact the people misunderstood me, because they assumed I meant the newer system for the current Star Wars RPG, developed by Wizards of the coast.

Posted By: Zephyrus Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 09:08 PM
Get Gothic.

Or get something old school, like Nox.
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 09:12 PM
I've got both. Currently I'm playing Lands of Lore I and the Eye of the Beholder Trilogy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tsel Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 09:14 PM
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

I have Gothic, but I’m finding it extremely difficult for me to play
due to all of the required Keyboard commands.
I am absolutely horrible at action arcade keyboard functions
and my eye hand coordination is just plain lousy.
So I haven’t been able to play it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 02/03/05 10:49 PM
Being an old JUmp&Run fan, I had no problems. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Butz I know that many people complained about that. I didn't use shorttcuts, however, only the arrow-keys for running. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Posted By: Stone Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 05:07 AM
Tsel, if you need help so ask me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I can give you some hints, which will allow you to run through the game and see the Story.
Ok, these are Cheats, but i think it is better to play a game with cheats, as to play it not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

And many of the people who say Gothic is to difficult, say after playing a while with cheats, that they can play now without.
It is only a thing of practice in my eyes.
Posted By: Lostsheep Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 11:24 AM
Well,this is great stuff,thanks all.Just what I was looking for in the original post.

It looks like I'll have to have a crack at Gothic 1 and 2 but I'm having difficulty finding them in the UK. Anyone any ideas here? I've tried the usual outlets but with little success.

To Stone:like Tsel,I also am hopeless at fast action keyboard commands,I have more thumbs than fingers.Assuming that I can get my hands on the games from somewhere,I would be very interested in "some hints, which will allow you to run through the game and see the Story",as you offered in the post above.At least to use until I become more familiar with the games,as you suggested.

Thanks again to all those who have offered advice in this thread and I'll look forward to receiving more.

PS.it takes ages to type a post this length with yor thumbs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tsel Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 01:03 PM
Stone >

Yes, please PM those Helpers, Cheats, or whatever to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
I know Gothic is a great game, because I've watched others play it,
but I am terrible at all of those keyboard commands.

In fact that's a big reason why I do not own a Play Station, Xbox, etc... because I could never work all of those blasted buttons on a game pad.

Thank you
Tsel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 03:37 PM
Post it somewere.I would like to see it too (since I don't have the manual to Gothic 1...).

I think you can still buy Gothic 2 though...

Übereil
Posted By: Stone Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 04:01 PM
Ok, i post the Cheats in the World of Gothic Thread.
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 04:13 PM
What I would really like is to know how to play. I THINK my hand-eye coordination is quite good (grown up with computers/consoles as I am). So I just have to know how to play...

Übereil
Posted By: Stormblade Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 03/03/05 10:25 PM
To make Gothic easier to play, you can change the keyboard configuration to "alternative" in the "Options" menu. This way you can use your mouse to move and navigate in the game (like in Gothic 2). Yes the combat key combinations take awhile to ge used to. Great game <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/XmasJump.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Jurak Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 05/03/05 01:20 AM
Nice.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> keep up the tips,... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tempo Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 10/03/05 03:33 AM
Gothic is art, controls are second. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Dervish Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 19/03/05 02:31 AM
Re: Original D&D books. The first edition I have was a boxed set with three hand-stapled manuals, a few dice, and some other stuff. Almost everybody I knew had played with those -- yet modified them to suit whatever their own preferences were. Chainmail rules were a separate supplement, if I remember right, and supported the movement from minutures wargaming scenarios to supporting single player fantasy combat. (Do a google search and you can find way more history of D&D than I can pull out of my memory! Most of it will probably even be more accurate.)

I've played Sacred, by the way. IMO, there's little to the game beyond hack, slash, and kill the monsters who did x bad thing. That said, it was a *fun* hack & slash game and I'll probably go back to it if I can't fix my current BD woes. I did have a hard time getting used to the interface, but it wasn't a real dexterity challenge, simply old habits from too much time in visual studio and too little in actual games.

I also did like Planescape: torment, although the CD died before I managed to finish it. A game called 'Soulbringer' (which I got in the same boxed set) was a better RP challenge to me, however. I liked the way that each kind of magic you used had different side-effects on your character. AND it lasted past the point where I had finished the game. The only bad part was the relative linearity of the story.

Dervish
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 19/03/05 03:11 PM
Quote
Chainmail rules were a separate supplement, if I remember right, and supported the movement from minutures wargaming scenarios to supporting single player fantasy combat.


Hello.

Personally, I think that "shift from miniature combat to fantasy combat" is the reason why combat is still a prominent factor in RPGs - in general. No-one seems to have ever thought of making an RPG without combat at all - too many people would consider it too dull, I expect. So I'm seemingly forced to the definition that an RPG without combat is no ("real") RPG, no matter how much I hate this definition.

Hack & Slay roots from this, I think. They are still megasellers, because they're action-based and don't require much thinking. Too much thinking = reduction of money income, the definition seems to go (at least for publishers). Well, and things seem to tend more and more towards action - that's my impression - so philosophers are a dying race now.

Weird thoughts from
Alrik. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 19/03/05 04:43 PM
Nice thoughts, Alrik. I could deal with an RPG without combat. Or at least with an RPG where non-combat was an alternative. Some combat once in a while can be quite fun, but loads of it all the time tends to be rather boring (espessially when there's no non-combat of value in between).

Übereil
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 19/03/05 06:52 PM
An interesting different way to look at it is imho Jagged Alliance : Combat as RPG. I think that's vice versa. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

There combat isn't part of an RPG, instead combat is the RPG ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

(Actually, it's difficult to describe what I mean ... I hope you get the idea.)

Alrik.


Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 19/03/05 08:09 PM
Erm... How do you roleplay combat? Not shure I got it right, since you described it simple, then said it was difficult to describe. You might have had to played it...

Übereil
Posted By: AlrikFassbauer Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 20/03/05 09:58 AM
Have you ever played Jagged Alliance 2 or so ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> Mainly, this game is a tactics game - but they've used RPG elements for it.

You could put it this way : They've reduced role-playing completely to combat - there are few things apart from that - so combat is role-playing in this came. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Unique, imho, if I'm right with my assumption.

Alrik.

P.S. : On the other had, you could view of JA as a "modern version of miniature games", so to say. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Ubereil Re: OT. Gothic? Sacred?? - 20/03/05 10:56 AM
Never played it... Sounds a bit like Fallout Tactics, which I've allso never played...

Übereil
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