The question is asked, "Is there anything more beautiful in life than a boy and a g1rl clasping clean hands and pure hearts in the path of marriage? Can there be anything more beautiful than young love?"

And the answer is give. "yes, there is a more beautiful thing. It is the spectacle of an old man and an old woman finishing their journey together on that path. Their hands are gnarled, but still clasped; their faces are seamed, but still radiant; their hearts are physically bowed and tired, but still strong with love and devotion for one another. Yes, there a more beautiful thing than young love. Old love."

---authour unknown

a boy and what?

His dog of course. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, that is so romantic.

it's supposed to say a "boy and a g1rl" but i am at a public computer right now with a censor installed that won't let me use the word. i have to use a 1 instead of an i.

it censored boy and girl? wow, thats really lame.

that's the least you can say.
well, America is pretty censored minded imho

everythings gotta be pc so nobody gets offended... people are too uptight.

awfull, they can show me everything, I'm not offended by anything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

me neither, really.

strange that lots of americans are so easily shocked though

*gasp!* how could you say that??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

because they are, not you though gal, gotta love you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />for that

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

sometimes the inserting of the graemlins screws up

I'm with ya there. People get offended by the most stupid things around here sometimes. The best sig I ever saw went something like this: A Censor is someone who knows more than they think you should.

Like we don't know that the ones who scream the loudest about their puritanical mindset don't have dirty little secrets in their closets.

Sorry to go off there.

Well, I disagree. I'm typing from a public PC and it doesn't seem to be censoring me. In fact, if I *** ****** ** ******* with ***** **** library **** **, * ***** from Tuesday **** ** ******** ** because ***** **. So there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

LOL!

so who censors the censors?

I sensed that you would ask that question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

In a Democracy, even Censors should be controlled.

if they censor girl?

Why doesn't say Bush I [tuuut][tuuut] have [tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tut][tuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tut][tuuuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tut]

and then saddam would say I'll never [tut][tut][tut][tuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut]][tuuuuut][tut][tuuut][tut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tuuut][tuuut][tuuuuut][tut][tuuut]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

no, that would be the liberals and the democrats who are oversensitive.



like i said, it's mainly the liberals and politicians (both sides) in america who are the oversensitive people.

but even so, that censor is way overboard. i guess it figures if i type in the word "girl" io am trying to look up pornography or something...

i am far from being politically correct and i never will be. i just can't become that much of a wuss.

sooo... you're a republican <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" />

a proud conservative christian republican....

good to see you seth =)

a republican <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

we need those alright <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

Got that right Viper. Wasn't it true that Monty Python's 'Life of Brian' was banned over most of the US?
Personally I believe censorship of anything is wrong. Who decides what I look at for gods sake? I would like to have a choice. I reckon I may get a peace t-shirt sometime too... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the topic originally posted, I choose not to look at 'wrinkly love'. ewww <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

eh, liberals do their share of censoring and banning stpuid things as well.

and somethings should be censored.

NOTHING should be censored

we should be able to know everything

cencure : <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

You know the best thing that has happened to the world in the last 20 years? The internet. Because you can find anything you want here. What should be censored then mickey? What stays? What goes? Go pedal your pithy morals somewhere else because for one I don't give a crap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

dont start flaming womble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I 2nd that, dont go flaming <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

Hi mickey,
You doin' ok?

Just out of curiosity what's a proud conservative christian like yourself doing on a board like this? No offense, but isn't playing any kind of RPG a sin?

Jvb, Viper, apologies. I actually thought this was going to turn into an interesting topic on censorship. I will say no more..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

you want us to apologize or what?? forget it, I don't apologize when I'm right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Neither do I. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

good we cleared that up.

Last worder..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

yeah, you get my pm i sent you?



to some it's a personal conviction. hard to explain...

Hmmm, I remember when Dungeons and Dragons became really popular. One would think that Gary Gygax was satan himself to hear some christians talk about it.

um, no offense, but i think dungeons and dragons is one of the geekiest thigns in the world =OP

I think D & D is a lot of fun and takes a lot of imagination. As with anything, some people can take things 'over the line'; but for those of us who don't, it's liberating & mind broadening. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

lol! So you've discovered my true geek identity. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm a geek from waaaay back. I married a geek and I'm probably going to raise some geek kids. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> geek party <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

>>Besides ending communism, fascism, and nazism - war has never solved anything!>>

Mickey, no offense taken, but I disagree with your signature: a war can't change people's minds, heart or thoughts. They may keep a bit silent for some time - if they haven't been killed - but their minds, heart and beliefs still remain. Germany is not the only country with neo-nazis, but we've got them here: young people.
The old-communists in former Russia still try to corrupt the country and nearly every country has facists.
And if I'm not totally wrong: The racist community Ku-Klux-Clan is still active in the USA.
War may change conditions - for better or worse - but it takes more and other efforts to solve and change.
If I misread the irony behind your signature, then, please forget my post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Addendum: I liked your opening post, I consider it very precious, this kind of old love, of growing together - never experienced it though, my own personal record is 4 years <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> of close relationship.

Communism killed people mickey?? How can an ideal kill people? The whole idea of communism(or socialism) is a great deal fairer than capitalism. It was simply poorly implemented and abused by power-hungry dictators such as Stalin.
When Lenin and the Russian people overthrew the Tzarist regieme the people in that country were starving. Unfortunately Lenin's ideals and Russia's industrial growth were cut short by an axe in the head <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but Russia may have been greatly different today if Stalin had never risen to power.
Pack it in with the red-bashing. Besides, its totally 80's anyway.

Are you trying to equate the 2nd world war to this little piss-ant conflict in Iraq??
This will not even be a war dude, Bush will bomb, bomb, bomb and when the smoke has cleared and the only thing standing is a three-legged cockroach with a limp the Iraqis will surrender.
Bush is doing several things with this 'war'.
1) Trying to justify the US's MASSIVE military budget.
2) Get his sad ass another political term of office.
3) Exercising 100,000 bored soldiers.

You don't fight terrorism by declaring war on a country. It just doesn't work like that, trust me. This is an invasion.
The US are such a bunch of chickens anyway. The UK went down to the falkland islands with about 10 ships, and lost a few to a well armed opponent. All to save a few farmers and some penguins. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The terrorist attacks will increase after this, martial law, even a police state. I'm not even sure I want to live in this arrogant country anymore.

Womble,

Irritated

right on, womble. communisim is a great idea, on paper. it has the potential to go terribly wrong, though.

there have been times when a war is inevitable, and needed, to stop something or someone. however, this time it is not the case.
i found this on the internet at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com:



At http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0112/04/se.04.html is a transcript of President Bush's comments regarding the day of the attacks on the World Trade Towers.

Towards the bottom of the transcript is the following quote. (Note: Some readers are reporting that the version of the CNN transcriopt they see in some parts of the country has been edited to remove the following comment. George Orwell would be proud!)

QUESTION: One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country, and another thing is that how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack?

BUSH: Well... (APPLAUSE)

Thank you, Jordan (ph).

Well, Jordan (ph), you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my chief of staff, Andy Card -- actually I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on, and I use to fly myself, and I said, "There's one terrible pilot." And I said, "It must have been a horrible accident."

But I was whisked off there -- I didn't have much time to think about it, and I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my chief who was sitting over here walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower. America's under attack."

There is a problem with the above statement. There was no live video coverage of the first plane hitting the tower. There couldn't be. Video of that first plane hitting the tower did not surface until AFTER the second plane had hit.

Bush is lying through his teeth here.

Even though Bush is not a very good pilot (he was taken off of flight status for failure to take a medical exam which included a drug test), it would be silly to assume that a passenger jet hitting the WTC in clear weather was pilot error. The only other known impact between an aircraft and a New York skyscraper was when a military airplane crashed into the Empire State Building in a heavy fog. Because of that incident, there are mandatory altitude minimums over the island. If Bush really did see an airplane on TV hitting the World Trade Towers, then he saw that the aircraft was under control at the time.

And, it must be remembered that even after andy informed Bush of the second impact, and by his own admission Bush knew we were being attacked, he continued to read to the classroom full of children.

Just think about that for a while.

Confirmation of Bush's comments is also at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html and http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,612354,00.html

i can't remember where now, but i once read or saw something that tied in all recent events into one big bush lie. he knew about the world trade centers, but he let it happen to get america all riled up so he could move into afganistan. we wanted afganistan for their heroin. you are all aware the cia controls the drug trade? now bush is going after the oil in iraq.
i will try to find it again.

the main reason i am opposed to this war is because it's not about saddam. he just wants control of the oil.

Thanks for the supporting reply Faile. Note that you are one of the americans I've met(virtually) that I do not shower with the same derisory scorn as the rest. I'll check out those sites later, rather amusing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Well, let's see. Bush seinior was the head of the CIA before becoming vice president and then president and he got to keep all the hard drives from the white house when he left office. Jeb promised Bush Jr that he would give him Florida and lo and behold there was some confusion over ballots and who exactly was registered, but only in counties that traditionally vote democratic. Am I missing something here? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shhh.gif" alt="" />

They better leave Jeb out of this though.
He isn't to bright. He already called the king of Spain "the president of Spain". And that while Spain is one of the few countries who's suporting Bush in this Iraq thing. What a mistakea to makea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

womble- thank you.

hypatia- you are definitaly on the right track, don't forget everything about how america trained the taliban, though! and the bush family's closness with the bin ladens...

speaking of that osama guy, what ever happened with him? hmmm?? do we ever hear osama stuff anymore?
oops, it seems we forgot about him.

here's another good one to read:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/index.html

nice info, but it seems the war has a [color:"green"] green [/color] light now. Bush is going to war even if Saddam decides to leave after all... which he won't do

it's sick, isn't it

very, but expected though

That was pretty cool. Sad that human nature hasn't evolved much in 2000 years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
Seems like America has been looking for enemies for a long time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

yup, and now they got HEAPS

hey, wars are good for the economy right?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

well, the stocks made profit the last few days.. very weird

Ah, the ferengi maxim! Alive and well... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

This is unfortunately true. Also the amount of scientific advancement to come out of the second world war was astonishng.
If you look at humans from a purely scientific point of view i.e. like an ant colony, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> frequent conflict is also a good population control.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

now if we could only get all the useless, stupid, moronic fatheads of the world to enlist...

Most of them do don't they? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I guess so

yup! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
my ex-boyfriend actually joined the army 3 months before 9-11. i bet he regrets big time now. last i heard he was in Afghanistan

I'd say I feel for him (your ex) but I'd be lying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Everbody makes a concious decision to join the army. Just as one man makes the inhuman decision to kill another man. No armies=no problem, all you would have then is politicians i.e. bunch of idiots standing around shouting at each other while everyone else actually does some work!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

i'd like to see bush and saddam in a hair pulling fight!

Or maybe a farting competition! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Then I'd put my money on Saddam!

ROFL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

ROFL²

I can see it now, Bush steps down from the podium, shaking his fist, saying "godammit, he always gets me with the friday night kebab special!!".

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />-eyes watering with the effort of restraining laughter in the workplace. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

LOL, nice one.. kebab.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmmmmm, kebab. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" />

indeed, I could chuck one down right now, with garlic sauce... LOTS

yes, i realise war doesn't change peoples' minds, thoughts or hearts.

my signature is referring to stopping the spread of such things.

yeah, these things still exist, but not nearly to the degree they used to exist.

and once i develop a record for a close relationship, i'll let you know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

and womble, i disagree about communism being fairer. in capitialism you get what you earn. granted sometimes you can get screwed, but no earthly system is perfect.

and yes, on paper communism looks great. but the world isn't a hypothetical place. communism is idealistic, where as capitialism is realistic.

You still here?

Socialism is about the distribution of wealth to everyone, even those who don't deserve it. Its however my opinion that I'd rather have a lot of people with a little bit of money they don't deserve than one incredibly rich gimp with all the money he doesn't deserve-and everybody else starves. With all respect, you've got your head where the sun don't shine.

How many people has christianity killed anyway?

Simply because an ideal is ruined by a bunch of idiots does not mean you should give up on it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Viper: Chilli on my 'bab please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

hee- look what i found:

Socialism: You have two cows. Give one cow to your neighbor.
Communism: You have two cows. Give both cows to the government, and they may give you some of the milk.
Fascism: You have two cows. You give all the milk to the government, and the government sells it.
Bureaucracy: You have two cows. The government takes both of them, shoots one, milks the other, then pours the milk down the drain.
Nazism: You have two cows. The government shoots you and takes both cows.
Anarchism: You have two cows. Keep both of the cows, shoot the government agent and steal another cow.
Capitalism: You have two cows. Sell one cow and buy a bull.
Totalitarianism: Your have 2 cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.
Surrealism: You have two giraffes. The government makes you take harmonica lessons.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

*Sniggers to self* -mooooooo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Right, I'm off home to play. More exiting topical debate tomorrow.....

sorry, i don't believe in even distribution...

i believe if you want something you go out and earn it. alot of people who are rich are rich because they earned it. take bill gates for example, he's rich because he earned it.

granted there are some people who get rich without earning it, such as the lottery which is something i don't like and don't think we should have it. or others use dishonest methods to attain wealth.

but like i said, all earthly systems have their flaws and cracks that people can slip through, even communism.

a lot of people have been killed by religious zealots claiming to be christians, but they really weren't.



let him get off his lazy butt and get his own cow...

i'm all for helping people, but i'm not one for condoning laziness. if my neighbour is in need because he's a lazy bum, then i would have a hard time lending him a hand. but if he's genuinely down on his luck, then i would help him gladly.



makes the most sense to me. that way you can have even more cows and have more to help other people with.

i think that people should always help out others who have less, but they should have that freedom to choose whether they do or not. they shouldn't be forced into being charitable.

isn't it ironic that this discussion is in a thread titled "more beautiful"....

i seem to be a political debate magnet.

happens no matter what i post or what forum i post on...

hey you started it

Bill Gates-*sighs* what a C**T!
Agreed though, he earned most of his wealth and I'm sure he's very happy screwing people over for a new OS every 6 months. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />
With wealth comes power AND responsibility, the capitalist system does not make people return the results of their good fortune to the state. Taxes are virtually even for every pay bracket.

If it were for people like you I would never have had an education. Fortanately I was one of the last poeple (mid nineties) to qualify for a student grant in the UK. I see the amount of debt people have to pay for the right to an education now and frankly, it stinks.
I had several friends who weren't so lucky however. They went through 3 years of college on loans of over 10,000 pounds per year. What is the point of getting a job when you could get just as much cash doing nothing. (UK student loans have a stipulation which requires you to be employed to start repaying)

I can thank the fact that I am sitting here in this chair with a (good) job to a policy implemented by a socialist government in the UK of the '70s. A policy that was torn apart and slowly destroyed over the next 15 years by a conservative government. A government that helped drag the boom-bust economy back into being and wiped out the economic stability of a country for a quick fix.

One thing, I agree on the religious zealot point. The name of many a belief has been perverted to commit the worst imaginable atrocities, even that of the muselim faith.

The cow thing was obviously written by a capitalist. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Should be "One man has 100 cows and taxes the crap out of everyone else for milk"

Some people can achieve great things with more state help. I would have been stuck in my back-ass white trash home town now if I hadn't had a break. Think about that before you tell someone to 'get off his lazy ass'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

i didn't call you lazy, womble. i simply pointed out that there are lazy people.

and when someone makes it it would be nice if they gave back to others who needed a hand, but like i said they shouldn't be forced into doing something. it should be volunary.

i'm not a big fan of the way the college system is set up in the US right now, either but, but to be honest, i don't think that has anything to do with our discussion on capitialism verse communism or socialism.

there are some capitialistic countries that do provide a collegiate education without burdening them with thousands of dollars in student loans.

That's the trouble though, nobody ever voluntarily gives money back to the system. The educational system point is a litle OT but is was a general point about what can happen when the state helps someone i.e. under a socialistic type of system.
My country's universities are full of rich, upper/middle class kids now, the difference is rather disgusting.

I know you didn't call me lazy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have heard it (especially as a student) from a lot cretins though. (conservatives and liberals) Some people have no idea what goes on in a poor person's life. Some breaks NEVER come to people in poor areas and there are a lot of talented people there. A capitalist system is shooting itself in the foot because it ignores 4/5 of its population and the talent therein. When a person is not given an incentive to work of course they will become lazy. 'Community programs' do not pay well.

There are well supported educational programs in most european countries. A lot of these countries also have left-wing governments. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Womble, how would you call the German Government - left-wing? If so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />, our education system is going down rapidly. German schools are in the lower middle-field of the PISA studies - they've been cut down on money for several years now: Teachers too old, a totally old-fashioned civil-servant-system, closing school libraries, forcing parents to buy additional school lecture for their children. Universities are too old and technically not up-to-date, over-crowded and here again a totally oldfashioned stupid civil-servant-system. We have a rather high population of foreigners, but special classes for teaching these kids a proper German were cut down, too. NO teachers in teaching them their mother tongue, so they remain wanderers between the cultures.
Students and pupils in Germany are the oldest to go out to life, the education system is really a disgrace. If I think of it, I get really angry. I know, Germany has a lot of economic problems dealing with Reunion and trade problems, unemployment rate is very high. But to cut down education is to cut down future.
I don't know if I can call this capitalism, the right and left wing have been doing a real good job in depriving kids of their future.
If you want to look where the good education is: Scandinavia.
Kiya

aye
For education you have to be in Canada, Scandinavia and (strange but true <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) Belgium.
For years now those countries been on top of a list the UN publishes every year.
They check everything: quality of the schools, classes you can atend, quality of the lessons, environment and everything for the students, ...

Thanks for the info Kiya. This is what an international forum is all about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Sorry your educational system sucks as much as the one in the UK.

OT - I may get slammed for this comment but I'll say it anyway. Why should a country provide education for (note-illegal) immigrants? The UK has such a large problem with an immigration influx since the serb-croat war and the opening of the channel tunnel. I guess better help should have been given to their countries but it isn't right that they should be given preference over the country's rightful citizens. I don't really know why I made the comment but it just bugs me.

I have a legal visa for the US but I do regard myself as fortunate. (sort of)

Oh, Womble, I'm talking about 2nd/3rd generation kids of foreigners! The parents were lured into Germany in the 60es and 70es, cause Germany wanted their Trade Wonder (Wirtschaftswunder), grmbl. But after some years all integration programs were cut down. And these kids can't speak a proper German, cause they have their mother-tongue at home, they live in separate communities - yes, I hate to admit it: Acceptance of some countries is VERY low here. So, these kids have their own language, a mix out of German and mother tongue, called Kanaka, angry kids, desillusioned kids, no-future-kids...
Some of them are then sent off to their original countries, they go to school there for a few years, return and can't speak their or German language properly: No good education, low grades in the final report, no qualification for a job. Womble, it's a total disgrace. I don't want to name the specific home countries, please understand - but I'm very ashamed of what's happening.
No integration programs, none at all now.
Kiya

And worst of all, by both wings in our countries. You know my job, don't you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />? I have to deal with this every day now.

that is the trouble, that a lot of people don't give back to the community when they make it. but part of being free and living in a free world is having that option.

there are some people who make it big and acquire mass amounts of money that do give back to the community.

darrel green, a cornerback for the washington redskins for twenty years has his own foundation that is designed to help underpivilged people.

durwood merril, a baseball umpire, has established his own charitable organisation which helps poor families.

then there's the boys and girls club of america which gets alot of help from various other athletes and famous people.

i have a very big idea what goes on in a poor person's life. that's how i was raised, and right now as an adult i am just barely able to stay above the poverty line.

That sucks Kiya. Sounds like the government simply brought these people into the country for the cash and then left them to rot. These (in my country the Pakistanis) people tend to be very isolationist and form their own communities. As in the US you do not want to be a white guy walking down these streets!
Anyway, the point is that the kids are subjected to their mother tounge most of the time and forced to speak it to communicate with their parents. Simply no chance to practice. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Mickey - glad to hear there are some charitable people out there. A lot of communities are still totally in need of some money though. Sorry to hear about your lack of cash, sucks. (beats me why your'e republican then <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Free world?? Dream world more like. Can I wear my 'peace' t-shirt and not get arrested then?

you might have people rag on you but you won't get arrested.

are you in the UK or in maine?

i may not have much cash but i do what i can to help others out.

a girl at work shakes her head when i do though. she worries way too much about me.

I work in Boston now but I am from england. I believe maine is MN. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

What about the story I heard of a guy getting arrested in a NY mall? Apparently all he was doing was wearing a peace t-shirt..... Maybe he was 'diturbing the peace'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

That's good of you to give cash. There used to be a guy who would hang around the Harvard square 7-11 who I would give change to. No big deal to me what he spends it on.... booze, whatever. I'm sure I would drink myself into oblivion if my life was that crappy too... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

well, i would have to know the rest of the story before i could make a statement.

he probably was doing soemthing to get aressted.

MN is minnesota. ME is maine.

what would you know about minnesota? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

who can tell what a person will know... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
i've picked up a few things in my 22 years in this state. can i move now?

Well, just to pour more fuel on this fire, I'd say a lot of you are confused as to the difference between a system of government and an economic system.

Correct me if i am wrong, but:

>>>>and yes, on paper communism looks great. but the world isn't a hypothetical place. communism is idealistic, where as capitialism is realistic.<<<<

uh, communism is a system of government, while capitalism is an economic system. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

The U.S. is not a "Capitalist" it is a Republic (tho some have referred to it incorrectly as a Democracy), whith an economic system based on capitalism (tho there are plenty of exceptions to that - think social security and medicare).

You could compare communism and democracy, that would work. However, it is correct to say that the world is not a hypothetical place, nor is it an ideal place, and so neither actually exist as a system of state government anywhere in the world. Most countries that label themselves "communist" are closer to dictatorships, and most that label themselves "democracies" are usually republics of one kind or another, and all are usually an amalgam of several different types of government. pure forms of government only work on paper, no matter what they are.

Challenge this statement: Systems of government are mostly formed by those who have gained power in order to maintain it, and are thus fairly flexible in order to deal with changing sources of power. To label one country or another as having a specific form of government is to greatly oversimplify how that country came to be, and its evolution over time.

cheers

S_T

if you don't know how to drive you can join me in virginia. no one here knows how to drive.

well, no one who is native to this place does.

NO!! please stay <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

nobody can drive here either. especially in winter.

ok then. I'm tired

me too.

this places shuts down even with just a little bit of snow. we had half an inch this year at one point and they delayed schools for two hours...

are you serious?!?! we get two feet and they don't do a thing. well, except plow. but everybody goes about their normal business.

same here in Belgium... if it snows <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

yeah, that's the way it was back home in new york. if we got three feet of snow overnight they wouldn't delay school unless they had problems getting the busses running.

Very good points S_T, allthough everybody (myself included unfortunately) seems to have gone a little <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />now. I often wonder if the UK is a republic or not as the queen has no power now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Ah, the bombs are flying, people are dying.....

anybody want to move into a cave somewhere deep in canada with me?

Still searching for gold? Didn't catch a leprechaun?

hiding from the world....
and yeah, that stuff too.

Just do it like the "vanishing leprechaun" (look here if you don't know what I mean: http://www-physics.mps.ohio-state.edu/~trey/lep/main.html )

Canada's too bloody cold Faile! (especially in a nuclear winter) How about a nice island somewhere in the pacific?

I'm GO for ICELAND <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Do they have good beer there Viper? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I don't know but the country itself is B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L-L <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" />

Probably IceBeer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

But at least you have "Country roads" - to take you home. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

to the place he belongs, even. mountain mama, and all that.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <--- says it all

pushes seth towards his inbox

Almost heaven, West Virginia,
Blue Ridge Mountains, Shenandoah River.
Life is old here, older than the trees,
Younger than the mountains, blowing like a breeze.

......
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I wanna go to the USA <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

i just got home from a school walkout, protest and march against the war. there were thousands of people marching with me. i was proud to be there, i was proud of everyone who was there and showed support, but i am also disgusted. i am disgusted that so many people can voice their opinion, and be so completly ignored by the man who is supposed to represent our country and our ideals.
the UN predicts 500,000 civilian deaths, 2,000,000 people left homeless, 10,000,000 without enough to eat, 18,000,000 without clean water, and over 1,000,000 children at risk of death by malnutrition in iraq.

does this sound like liberation? to me, it sounds like murder. bush is the terrorist.

How did Bush win the elections again?

I just hope that more americans are like you, not blindly following that guy that rules the country for 4 years, The day Bush became president I told everyone to expect a second Gulfwar and I'm kinda right ain't I.

America would have been better of with AL Gore..

he didn't win. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />

here are some funny things to look at:

http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bushonwar.jpg
http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bush_binoculars.jpg
http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bush_nostradamus.jpg
http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bush_chimp.jpg
http://winstars.free.fr/english/images/bush/bush_jackdaniels.jpg

ROFL, haven't seen some of them and they're damn good and true

http://www.whitehouse.org/initiatives/posters/index.asp

ROFLMFAO

LOL those are good too, dragh. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Faile you are so damn cool. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Love the Ghandi quote too.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohh.gif" alt="" /> why, thank you womble! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shame.gif" alt="" />

Saw the marches on the news too. Civil disorder rules. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

check this out! i'm the one right underneath the word "saddam" on the big cardboard sign, and thats my boyfriend on my right.
http://www.hongpong.com/lib/protest-320/images/03200023.jpg

look at the top of the picture rofl ow look there are a bunch poeple on the road would i wonder why, well i have another snack.

i can only see your back though

yeah, well, it's still me.

Can't see you very well there faile. Shitty weather for a march. I wish I didn't have to work so I could've gone down Mass. Ave. in Boston holding up traffic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

yeah, it was all cold and rainy.
heres another good photo- the photographer said there was about a block of people behind him, too.
http://stu.aii.edu/~jto361/nice-crowd.jpg

I think I recognised your nose...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

From the back? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/exclamation.gif" alt="" />

It's stcking out a little. A pink spot on a black background.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh yeah, now I see. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

there are more than a few thousand people living in america. there are over 250 million americans.

the few thousand people you walked with does not represent the entire country. bush isn't going to war on his own with no support from america. there are tons of people who support bush's war.

as for these numbers released by the UN, they are merely speculation and guesses. you can't predict the number of war casulaties anymore than you can predict what the score of the Superbowl will be. you can state what you think it will be, but it is, after all, simply a guess. So far they have a done a good job at keeping casualties down, and i expect them to continue.

America is NOT the judge of the world, they have no right to attack Iraq. Bush is a warfreak, who fell on his head on his birth and kept bouncing.

Clinton was a sexmaniac
Bush a warmaniac

Can't you americans choose a NORMAL president?

America isn't attacking Iraq, the UN is which include more than america. Yes we americans make up the larger portion. I don't agree with his reasons for the war but I do agree with the war. Terrorism needs to be stopped(yes I know it won't be but it'll hamper it a lot). Take the specs someone stated then look at specs of how many un people will be killed/hurt/whatrever by Sadam and his people over the next few years. If they had specs on that maybe those someone posted wouldn't look so bad.

Why is it the minority that always cries out that they aren't being represented? hmmm...

most people here believe the war is neccessary because of television of september 11th and other such things. If the new reporters and such are lying to us shouldn't you be angry at them not those blindly following our leader(blindly??? hmmm guess I didn't see the sept 11th thing on tv or other such events)

Truelly I'm for the idea of stopping terrorism, if that what this war will do or not I have no clue I'm just a peon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll let smarter and more important people decide what should be done and if it'll help. Hopefully not influenced by oil or green in any way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"yellow"]phal [/color] you do know that bush is only doing this or the oil, don't you?

Like I said I don't agree with his reason... A matter of fact I totally disagree with his last war, wasn't it just a cival war we interferred with(beecause of oil)? At least this time he rode upon a good reason <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> to get his war fix.

your right about that.
only i dont understand a couple of things:
in england : 80% of the ppl are [color:"orange"] against [/color] the war. Still england helpes america.
Besides that, the war is going on without the permission of the UN.
quite a well organized democraty are we living in....

80% against wow, sounds like a problem in england with their government.
UN against? I heard england and others were supporting so I thought it was a UN thingy...sorry I haven't had that much time to watch news since it started.
Is the UN really against it? Or just against his reasons? I have no clue who lives in bagdad, so can't judge wether it is right to target the city itself or not. If Sadam and his followers are the primary people then their methods are ok if not then... Like I said I believe in the war but not neccessarily the reasons he has or the methods he is using. I'd have to study up on all the intelligence reports to determine that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

its not that the UN is against it.
they just havent given permission yet.
yes it indeed is a problem in england.
some other stats:
of what 1 heard:
15 americans and 15 enlish ppl have died (more or less)
and only 1 iraq guy (and that was even a citizen)
quite a well organized war if i can tell <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> I heard that this morning rumors of helicopter accident killed most of them. They forgot to put gas in it or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> though they can't confirm or deny whether it was under attack at time. I doubt though after all that bombing we killed no iraq people yet, just haven't got confirmation and you know the military about confirmation before reporting...

edited: Gas thing was meant as joke not part of rumor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

your right there.
but admit it : the helicopter accident was stupid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

In this matter almost no governement is beeing fair to its own poeple, cus the poeple don't want A war cus lot's of poeple in iraq will suffer, I have the impression some poeple see every iraqi as a terrorist this is so wrong. The governements of those countries handle in profit of their country cus defeated Iraq will do good to our ecenomics the oil etc.. If money comes to it, war always happens even if the mayority is against.

And I tought those planes where done by Afgahni terrorist not Iraqis, this is a other matter concerning Iraq's weaponory, and I guess they have a lot, a huge lot more than some Sumut rockets and that's going to hurt, both Iraqis and Americans. Iraq is no Afghanistan that can be easily beaten. Remember Vietnam?

Yep it was <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />, I wonder what happened, anything new since this morning? I have been at work so... Machinery does wear down over time so it could of simply been its time, or pilotes error(how often do they get to test it in a real situation?) I was in NG so I guess I can use that as a comparison very well, but our vehicles were in poor shape and we were a front line tpye of company(though I wasn't a grunt, I was THE commo guy). During the two week summer thing we had at least 6 vehicles each time not make it(consider that we was a "front line" machinic unit...)

drag: good point, I didn't mean to point the sept 11th thing at them just using it as a "terrosist" thing. I feel we need a war against terrorists and Sadam is one of the big ones, though we shouldn't stop there. Terroists in general are hard to make awar against because they are all over not in one specific spot and any BIG terroist group like Sadam's is a nice target.

I don't see iraqians(errr whatever they are called) as all being terrorists, If 90% of people living in bagdad are innocent bystanders then I'm against his methods but if they aren't... I just really don't know the intelligence on that matter, I trust other people to take care of that. I'm just too lazy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />, one resason I don't vote is because I don't have the time or inkling to follow who did what and such so I don't vote. I'm too busy living my own life to study what cliton's sexual(err non-sexual according to him) relations are <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

you study Clinton?

Well I tought of Clinton as a horny man, I think of Bush as a idiot. So naturally I like Clinton more.

if a bomb falls on holland im going over there and punch bush and saddam in theri faces <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Eh... ppl
Saddam himself has proven that Bush was right about invading Iraq.
The rockets he had fired upon that English camp prove that he was holding back information and weapons of massdistruction.
Even if it waren't scuds, they are still weapons that should have been destroyed after the gulfwar.

I'm worried that if the alied forces get closer and closer to Saddam we'll get to see an example of more discusting weapons (chemical ones) of massdistruction. Other weapons Saddam didn't told the jokers of the UN about.

The war has started, and even though Bush does it for the wrong reasons, complaining about it now and protesting against it is like pulling the tail of a mad bull and asking if it could run the other way, please.

Now that it started I hope it ends soon. And that ppl in Iraq will finaly be free.

It's so funny to see ppl protesting and talking about the ppl in Iraq who will die. While they never raised their voices when Saddam was slaughtering 1000's of ppl.
Less ppl will die in this war than if they would have let Saddam go on.
Just like in the gulfwar, ppl in Iraq will turn against Saddam as soon as they are free of his control.

It's fun, eh? Protesting against everything. Becouse your neighbour does it, becouse it's cool, becouse it's in...
Just remember that you can protest here, while in a country like Iraq you would have been sloughtered... if you are lucky.

Has America, Brittain destroyed all there weapon after the Gulfwar?
America is as dangerous as Iraq, let's say the USA and Europe get into fighting eachother, who will have the most firepower and weapons of mass destruction.

Why would Saddam destroy all those weapons, if they do they would have been easy pray, not only for the USA.

But who will succeed Saddam if he's done/killed whatever. What happens the $$$ and oil etc.

Who sais the USA wouldn't screw up again?

WAR is not the answer, you don't have to war to get rid of Saddam, It's merely one person. He can hide as much as he wants but who is afraid of a hiding chickenshit? I agree Saddam should go but this could have been done more peacefull a long time ago.

ok. listen. i am protesting this war because it is hypocritical, they are fighting for the wrong reasons and lying to everyone about why they are attacking.

yes, saddam killed alot of people, and he is a bad man. but, he killed these people back when america was allied with iraq, and giving them 3-4 billion dollars a year as a gift. if we thought he was so evil, than we would have done something then.
yes, saddam has weapons of mass destruction. so remind me again, what are we dropping on iraq right now? if iraq doesn't get bombs, then neither should we. or anyone. period.
bush is only invading because 1- he wants iraq's oil. 2- iraq is the first step in conrolling the middle east.

it's not about liberating iraq. it's not about saddam.

by the way, it's illegal to attack when you have not been attacked yourself. america has not been attacked.

dragh and faile are right.

and besides that:
i dont see the logic in bush ideas:

he thinks that war is neccecearly to get peace :S
strange guy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

- the USA and the UK waren't supposed to destoy their weapons after the gulfwar. Saddam was.
- war isn't the answer. It's the beginning (hopefully).
You don't have to go to war to get rit of Saddam? You think he was going to leave quietly and frendly? You think he would do that after he been laughing in the face of the UN for the last 12 years? You think for a moment that he would give up his life of luxery and doing whatever he pleases?
You think for a moment that he cares about what you and I think? You think he cares about what happens to the ppl of Iraq?
... wishfull thinking...

do you really think bush cares?

@faile,
You're right ofcourse.
But do you think Saddam would leave?

And America hasn't been attacked? How soon you forget about 9/11... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

ppl... There is no good in this.
so instead of increasing it and making it harder on ourselves... why not go for the easyest solution and try to give the ppl of Iraq a world they can live in once Saddam is gone and once this war is over?

if one country should disarm, all other should do the same, Iraq has the right to defend itself. Control over Iraq that is what it's all about Iraq may not seem rich but it's worth a lot. And the Iraqis should get rid of Saddam themselfes if they really want to have a better life, war is for sure not going to make their lives better.

Sure he does.
He cares about the $$$ he makes. And about the $$$ he ows to the chemical and weapon companies who made him president of the USA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

um, that was osama bin laden. he's in afghanistan. there is absolutely no link between 9-11 and iraq.

who the [nocando] is alice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

Ah... And how should they get rit of Saddam? They have rocks and stones. He has special forces and VX gas.

War made or lives better! A lot even.

ah... *grin*

The girl livin' nextdoor.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/freak.gif" alt="" />

I don't care if Sadam cares for us... I care for legitimacy: And the USA and their allies have started war without the UN-Mandate = illegal. We stoop down to his criminal level.

The USA is trying to certify this war by pointing out the Cease-Fire agreement from 1991 (or 1993)has been broken by Iraq.

As for Iraq weapons according to what I found: Old Scuds (USA estimation 12-40), old Al-Samoud-II-rockets (50 destroyed by UNO, estimated 20 left to be ready), old Russ. T 72 tanks, old Mirage F1 planes and a few MIG's.

I hope, the UN will NOT make this murder legal. It's a crime what happens there and shall remain a crime.
Kiya

Uhm Iraq does have weapons you know, the even produce the ak-47 kids in Iraq have A weapon.

Do you really think that war made our life better? what if Hitler never started a war? wouldn't be our lives even better? It could have made your life better, but ask your grand parents how much war made their lives better, the only good thing about those wars were that we learnt a lesson and technology has advanced in increased rate.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> Seth <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
You speak for me - except I don't think Bush is money grubbing (sorry just my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />).

Oops and now I prepare to be in very big trouble - covers head and ducks!

and dont forget who supported irak long time ago: america.
the weapons were they are fighting with are partly american weapons....

It's nice to have a queen by my side. Even if I don't believe in monarchy... and even if she ducks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

It's just that too many of my friends have opposing opinions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't want to hurt our friendship.

-The ak-47 was produced in countries who ware part of the Warshaw-pact. The only country still producing it is Bulgaria.

-A war isn't pleasant for the ppl in it. But some of us wouldn't have even been here if WWII never happened.
Medical science advanged at an incredible speed in WWII.
Things you take for granted, like peniciline ( and so antibiotics) would maybe not have been discovered fi.
And without the Marshall plan, Europe wouldn't have been what it is today.
It wasn't nice on our grandparents. But all you posting here are benefitting from things that have been discovered/invented becouse of WWII.

grmbl, my queen betraied me..? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Don't attack them. Just state clearly what you think. The ones who give you a hard time on that aren't freinds and don't respect your opinion.

- I do understand/know what our freinds are posting here. And they are right too, you know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But it's only a little part of the whole truth.
I just try to show them the whole picture.
Let him who is without sin... -know what I mean? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

see... that's what I ment.
Noooo jvb. You're supposed to be loyal. So you betrayed her!

i aint mad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

evryone must have an own opionion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i clearly pun an ";)" in my post

-You already missed something there. Saddam already used weapons that he isn't supposed to have. He violated UN resolutions, making this war legal.

-It wasn't a cease-fire agreement. It was an agreement about Iraq destroying all weapons of massdistruction and respecting human rights.
Saddam violated both.

-The airplanes you mentioned tell you why Russia and France are against the war. They provided those plains. And have more economical intrests in Iraq.

That's why it's sad that you said: "We stoop down to his criminal level."
Don't identify yourself with the UN and other politicians, kiya. You'll always get hurt, get lied to,...

Saddam is just one of the many who show us how powerless and what a joke the UN really is.
*grin* Not even the members of the UN care about it. As Bush and his allies have shown us.

I know jvb. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am still sitting back and biting my lip so I don't say anything unless absoulutely necessary. For one thing, the war is a fact and only history will show whether it was right or wrong. Someone said if the Iraqi people wanted to be free why didn't they free themselves? Really? If you knew your children would be killed how hard would you fight? Even the husbands of Saddam's daughters weren't safe.

but you can not look me straight in to my eyes and say that bush hasn't made "dirty hands"..

Er, english? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

An opinion is good.
If it's based on own, personal judgement. And providing you have all the facts.
But not if it's based on propaganda and lies.
It's better to look around and be a bit nosy not to much or it may get cut off) than to just accept all you been told.

srry.
litteraly translated it means "white hands"
but i dont know if it has the same meaning.
it means that bush himself isn't all good to.
he had to get his hands dirrty as well.
maybe not so much as sadam, i agree, but still.

It doesn't means the same.
White hands/witte handjes is used for financial crimes/corruption.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

whoops.
i meant the english translation.
witte handjes was wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
vieze hande better seth?

I know I have a different opinion of Bush than most & I won't say that his hands are completely 'clean'; most politicians have to 'roll in the mud' occasionally. Sad, but true. However, I don't think he would send our soldiers over to fight and die without a very good reason. We had enough oil and as long as we left things alone, we would have continued to have the oil. And I'm sorry I don't think that we went to Iraq primarily to free the people. I think that Bush knows for a fact that Saddam was supplying weapons and chemicals to groups like Osama's and that it was just a matter of time before Britian and American saw another 9/11. I think the countries that were holding back in the UN didn't feel that they themselves were immediate targets. The US had a big red X painted on her and it was just a matter of time.

Mind you DQueene...

I do expect a lot more trouble after the war.
Not only about the oil fields.
In Iraq lives a complex variety of... eh... ppl.
Some of the muslims there have a more differend believe.
They belong to the same "group" as the ones who live in Iran. Iran has always been supporting them in fighting against Saddam and Saddam has killed many of those.
So I expect troubles there... (I think kiya maybe can back me up on that)

There are also the nomads who lived in what once was a huge swamp and that saddam turned into a dessert to destroy their habbitat.

And ofcourse... "the Koerden" (is it really Kurds in English?) Saddam wasn't the only one slaughtering them. The Turkish have done the same.
And from the latest news I heared, Turkey is kinda invading Iraq too to try to control "the Koerden" there, becouse they are afraid that once that "the Koerden" in Iraq are free, they will probably come help their brothers who get slaughtered in Turkey.
The USA and the European Community already have warned Turkey to stop that.
But I doubt if they will listen.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> (-specially as there are a couple of oil wells in that area too. I'm sure Turkey wouldn't mind getting control of those)

I have to tell you the same I tried to tell kiya.
Don't ever believe politicians start a thing like that becouse they care about you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
There's always more involved.
Actually... the USA doesn't has more than enough oil.
Specially now that Bush plans to destroy the Alaskian national wildlife parks to drill for oil have been shot down.
The USA had to use parts of their "oil stock" more than once over the last ten years.
And I'm sure you've heared about the power problems in fi Ca. Although that seems to be fixed now.
I also don't think Bush knows.
He has to go on what intelligence services tell him.
And it isn't the first time that they decieve a president of the USA, eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
But yes... in this case, you can fairly asume that Saddam was still supporting terrorists.
But you don't have a big red X painted on you!
If you start thinking like that you'll see a Saddam adept behind every tree/bush <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />.
That "protecting ourselves" thingy is just one of the many lies in the proganda war.
Don't believe everything you been told.
But Bush being born in your backyard <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> I understand why you tend to feel this way.
And the spirit of Suthern Americans... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I know I wouldn't have gone into that type of situation unless there were some very compelling reasons - just the idea of trying to match our western philosophies to the beliefs they have in that country would be mind challenging.

I know that a lot of what the world hears is propaganda, thats why we have that old saying about "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see". And even that has to be modified now to be what you see in real life. I don't walk around all paranoid; however, I do realize how easy it would be to do certain things. Recently there was a big sale on duct tape and plastic sheeting here in the US - it was sad, but funny at the same time. What did they really expect to accomplish with plastic and duct tape??

We don't have to take our believes overthere. They already have their own.
And those are mixed and messed up more than enough already.

The thing to do for the allied forces is to get rit of Saddam. Turn control over to the UN (*grin*) and get the hell outta there.

Let's not even start about believes in a comflict that's already messed up politically and military.

I meant in just trying to understand what motivates them, not forcing our ideas on them. I'd much rather let the UN handle it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse.

That's just what I ment, and often said before.
The UN handled it the last 12 years.
And every single day Saddam laught in their faces.

Like so many of those international organisations, the UN was created becouse a bunch of politician needed to find a job becouse a couple of their nephews couldn't get a decent job.
You get a lot of bla bla. But so far the UN has failed in about everything it ever got involved in.

Well they certainly didn't support their own policies which basically made them ineffective.

Yes.
The world never was ready for something like the UN.
You see that on a smaller scale constantly in Europe.
They wanna be the EC. But the differences of intrests of all countries is just to big.
Spain is getting a lot of crap from the EC becouse of the last environment disasters with that tanker.
It was very simple to every one who uses his/her brain.
The tanker was in trouble and was losing oil. So Spanish politicians who cared mored about the famous Spanish beaches than the environment got it toed to open sea.
Ofcourse it went down like a brick there. But only a relatively small amount of the oil reached the Spanish beaches. That it killed millions of sea creatures and birds... why should they care... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
And believe it or not... partly why Spain is supporting Bush in the Iraq thing is a childish revenge on the crap they're getting from the rest of the EC becouse of that environmental disaster.
Neat, eh. - I vote for a kindergarden to run the EC, next (forced) elections.

Just to throw a zinger in here - and with all this going on people wonder why if there are aliens advanced enough to build spaceships they don't come visit our wonderful planet openly... Duh, we can't even communicate with our fellow human beings if their skins the 'wrong' color or their eyes are shaped differently. Just imagine an aliens welcome!

If they're smart enough to build spaceships...
they're probably smart enough to stay away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

History repeats itself?

dqueene I tought you should have known this but the american oilproduction is nat that plentyfull anymore, it's getting drained cus it's used too much, Iraq has oil enough, and they don't use it as much, their oil gets exported for the greater half, if bush has that oil, if he has iraq and other surrounding countries in his power guess who's gonna get the $$$ of the oilexport?

american soldiers have died enough needlessly, the vietnam war what was that about, communism I don't think communism is such a bad thing, it is much more stable and realable than democratism.

WWI and II were wars american soldiers did die for a good reason, hitler planned genocide on everything he didn't like, Jews, queer poeple that shoul have been stopped. But vietnam was not about the librity of them poeple but only about destroying communism.

most russian aren't that happy without communism, idd they like the freedom, but they did also like the governement watching over everyperson, giving him food, and work.

Here we get money when we don't, in old russia if you hadn't a job they gave you one.

I am not a patriot, i don't like the idea of countries I believe in one united world no differences on nation, class, race etc... but as many poeple are hungered for might this won't happen in my lifetime, everyone is still selfish.

Those country do hate america cus america stands for everything they don't have. They can't go to america cus they will 'steal' jobs, bring it to them? as almost no governements seems to have the slightest will to do this peacefully it won't happen, poeple die, have their homes destroyed etc.

Do you really think poeple have their homes destroyed their children killed for what america has to offer? are you williing to share your wealth with them iraqis after the war? only when you are going to help the person who lives there to have the life you have, maybe then this would be justified.

Who would suffer more and who would get the most out of this war? Iraqis will suffer the most we will have a lot cheaper oil. iraqis get destruction and death, have to rebuild the little they have and be as far as the were before the war only now saddam isn't there. is that worth it?

*grin* Ofcourse.
ppl are still as stupid as they ware back then.
-Goering was a master in propaganda and disinformation.
That's why Hitler gave him that job.

dqueene- don't duck. state your opinion and stand by it. no civil person will be mad at you for an opinion.

now, if america gets to be police, and go around liberating people, do you think we will invade china next? china persecuted one of the most peaceful religions that exsits, and exiled the dahli lama. so will we liberate china? nope. why? because there is nothing for us to gain.



i am trying to show you the whole truth, seth. did you know that 75% of all the radio stations in america are owned by one huge coorporation? it's called clear channel. you cannot trust what you hear or see on the coorporate news. they are always protecting their interests. i balance what i hear from the tv, and what i hear and read from the independant alternative news sources. and the truth is, bush is lying to our faces. again, i am most definitely not opposed to getting saddam. if that was what the war is really about, then i would be ok with it. the bottom line is, saddam is just a conveinent excuse!

Nope. They won't invade China. China is to powerful and has nuclear weapons. Bush only attacks more easy targets.
But maybe he can start a new "cold war" period.

Saddam is an excuse. And a good one. Couse he's doing the same. One is no better than the other.
But if the result is that after this Iraq's ppl can expect a better future I don't mind "using Bush" to reach that goal.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not so sure it's really about only the oil in Iraq. It's more likely about stability in the region to maintain oil flow, among many other things like:

-supporting the current power structure in the US
-Dividing the EU to make it weaker (have seen little news on this, but it makes sense from a US economic and political standpoint)
-Removing a potential threat to our only real "friend" in the region: Israel.
-rebuilding a weakened economy in the US by increasing defense spending (it's worked many times before)
-Literally a "crusade" by bush, there is evidence he wanted to do this a LONG time before he ever became president; sometime after he attended a religious revival meeting in the '80's and became a "born again Christian" (he was an alcoholic and drug user before that).

Note that I don't have any direct evidence to support the above, except about the bush born-again-christian thing, and notes from him to his aides that sound like those of a crusader, rather than a president. Additionally, there is evidence that Bush's political strategy is entirely devised by his primary adviser, Karl Rove (do a search on the name on google; SCARY!!).

However, as far as dictators go, I won't be sorry to see Saddam take a hike. I just hope it stops there, and we can gain some semblance of reconstuction going with the UN and begin repairing the damage done to relations around the world.

It is hard to believe that Bush knew about (or some say, even planned!) the 9/11 attacks. One's mind just does not want to go there. However, an interesting piece of history (was on the History Channel about a month ago) is the fact that before the U.S. was bombed at pearl harbor, Germany launched a massive U-boat attack against the entire eastern seaboard on North America in an attempt to stop supplies reaching the UK. The British had picked up the subs leaving port, and at that time had full access to de-crypted german communications, so they knew at all times where most of the subs were. they reported the sub postions to both the U.S. and Canada. The Canadians quickly responded with their navy and drove the U-boats out of their territorial waters. However, the U.S. chose to completely ignore the intelligence info supplied by the British. Dozens (hundreds?) of US ships were sunk by U-boats in the resulting raids (unkown number of dead), and yet the US navy was officially told NOT to pursue the U-boats. Interviews with the U-boat captains after the war all recounted their surprise at so easily being able to strike U.S. shipping; even being able to freely travel directly into New York harbor with no resistance.
After some time, the navy decided to scapegoat one admiral for the apparent "blunder" and finally go after the U-boats. But the public outrage at the time over losing so many U.S. ships to the germans was instrumental in Washinton building support to enter the war. Some analysts say that this was probably a direct attempt by hawks in the US govnmt to gain support for going to war.

Refer back to the quote from Goering I posted earlier. I think this is probably a more common tactic than one might at first believe.

Do I believe that Bush had anything to do with 9/11 directly? Logical or not, I just can't force myself to believe that our own president would be involved in something like that, or i would go mad. I have already decided to leave this country as it is.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien.gif" alt="" />

...

The better question is: will China use Iraq as justification to invade Taiwan?

As far as a better world for Iraqis... anyone happen to know how the afghanis are doing now that we "helped" them?

SETH:


hmm. And their messed up national identity and belief systems have NOTHING to do with interference from the US, Britain, USSR, etc.? right? oh, of coooouurrse not. We took our beliefs "over there" a long time ago. Problem is, they just don't fit!



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> Yup, that's just what irresponsible children do, make a mess and let someone else clean it up. BTW, the UN is already drafting resolutions to say that the "victor" in the war (gee, wonder who that will be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />) will be responsible for cleaning up aftewards. Smart move, IMO.

I have much more to say to you about the UN, too, like posting a two page list of the accomplishments of the UN over the last 20 years, but it will take me some time to compile it (I'll post a brief version tommorrow). Your earlier comments about the uselessness of the UN show that you really don't know that much about it. I suppose you like the idea of the US as a "benign" dictator for the whole world, eh?

about pearl harbor- president FDR knew about pearl harbor and allowed it to happen, even held back intellegence from his commanders, because he couldn't get support to enter WWII. once we were bombed by japan, we easily got the go ahead. more info here. it's extremly interesting, even if you think it's a crock of sh*t, read it all the way through.

FAILE:
now, if america gets to be police, and go around liberating people, do you think we will invade china next? china persecuted one of the most peaceful religions that exsits, and exiled the dahli lama. so will we liberate china? nope. why? because there is nothing for us to gain.<<<

minor correction: China invaded Tibet and exhiled the DL from there. The question has been asked for decades as to why no-one has tried to put significant pressure on china to liberate Tibet. BTW, the same argument China used to "annex" tibet is now being used by them for Taiwan.

>>>Don't attack them. Just state clearly what you think. The ones who give you a hard time on that aren't freinds and don't respect your opinion.<<<

aww, have fun. Flame on! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> It's not that hard to still respect someone for who they are and trash what they say at the same time. We all say stupid stuff. I say, feel free to add some fire to your opinion, so long as the discussion topic is still furthered in some meaningful way. A part of how some folks express themselves is with fire and brimstone.


>>>Let him who is without sin... -know what I mean? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /><<<

yup. and .. "living in glass houses" too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />


>>>>i am trying to show you the whole truth, seth. did you know that 75% of all the radio stations in america are owned by one huge coorporation? it's called clear channel. you cannot trust what you hear or see on the coorporate news. they are always protecting their interests. <<<

Good point. It is now just as usefull to mistrust the media as it is those that use it for their own ends. Geee, can you say "ORWELL"?? it would be very usefull if you posted some links documenting this.

i'm sure i would have been protesting back then, but in 1988, when saddam gassed the kurds, (yes, it's really kurds in english <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) i was only 8 years old. biggest worry i had was if my mom was going to bring home the right cereal this time.

and i kind of take offense at the assumption i protest because it's "in". thats simply not true. perhaps for some it is, but i truly feel that this war is being fought for the wrong reasons (meaning it's not being fought for the iraqi's liberation) and i think most of the people protesting feel the same as i do.
too many people are taken in by what the government and the mass media tell you.
http://www.indymedia.org
i strongly urge you to take a look at this site. down the column on the left side of the page you will find a link for whatever country or state you are in.

toejam- thats what i meant about china/tibet. sorry if i said it all jumbled. did you want links about clear channel? i'll look, post as soon as i find.

-- that was easy. also looks like i got my stat wrong- this says it's 60%, not 75%. still, it's too much. http://www.clearchannelsucks.org/
here's more:
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=4808
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_clearc.html

Damn, sorry to put so many posts up at once, but at least it makes them easier to find <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

hey seth, maybe you should think about why you mentioned that joining peace protests was the "in" thing to do to begin with. hhhhmmmmm? why isn't joining pro-war rallys the "in" thing to do in your mind? Freudian slip, perhaps?

I think your a closet peacnik <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

No prob. there are just a lot of folks participating that might not have known about the China/tibet thing.

yeah, links to articles on clear channel, and others discussing the corporate takeover of american media in the last 10 years would be good.

edit: nevermind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

note that we all just learned something new from reviewing the original source of info: 60%, not 75%. a small distinction, perhaps, but important, nonetheless

toe- see edited post above
edit: we need to stop posting at the same time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

kewl.

Say... is that offer to join you in a Canadian cave still open? I always enjoyed my visits to the great white north. Beauty, eh.

offer stands. although maybe i will take whoever-it-was's suggestion and change it too a deserted tropical island.

I think if we could find connections between Karl Rove and Clear Channel, that would be VERY interesting. Maybe even worthy of a post on Slashdot.

There are over 2000 islands around French Polynesia. I wonder if the French would pay us to go to one? I'm game if they are!

hell yeah. what country/state are you in, anyway?

check your PM.

got it.
seriously, how could anybody exile this guy?

he is the sweetest and most adorable guy ever. i just want to hug him.

Wow, this is getting as bad as the Royal Dragons lair. Whats this thread about anyway? (Im lazy)

big debate about the war and stuff.

-eh... 1988?
That was just a test. Between 1988 and now ppl had 15 years to protest.
He's been doing it ever since. But our oil flow wasn't involved so media here didn't cared. Ppl here never complained. It ware only Kurds who got slaughtered and used as test objects for new weapons and toys for Saddam's son.
Same in Turkey. Why is no one protesting against that? Maybe becouse they act freindly towards the USA?
Maybe becouse they aplyed to become a member of the EC?
It's disgusting... the Turkish have been slaughtering Kurds constantly, just like Saddam did in Iraq. Now a guy who has been convicted of religious and racist crimes not so long ago is in charce of the country. They even created special elections for that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> Very nice indeed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
How the EC even dares to consider the membership of a country like that just proves that the EC doesn't care about human rights too.
Turkey already invaded Iraq too btw. To keep control of the Kurds and hide the crimes they committed. And that there are a few oil wells in the area that Turkey wants control of is a nice bonus. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> Talk about sticking your brother a knife in the back...we got the perfect example here.
-Every war has been faught becouse of the wrong reasons.
Politicians/leaders/... always had other motives than they claimed.
Except for WWII maybe. More and more studies show that Hitler really was insane. He blamed the jews for what happened to his family and Germany losing WWI. But that a whole world went to war over the insane ideas of one madman makes it even more scary.
-Internet is massmedia too, you know.
Don't believe everything you see/read/hear on the net.
Media is made by ppl. So personal opinions are involved.
No mather how much they claim to be neutral, you always put a little of yourself in a story.
And not only that. Massmedia needs to sell... and some ppl working there are no better than other ppl. So they write/broadcast what other ppl wanna hear to become popular. In the USA there's a media war going on between a few networks about who can show news from Iraq more fast than the others. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> So I wouldn't trust to much of the "news" you get from those networks.
And another note on that. Even the ones who do mean well also have to get their "news" somewhere.
And where do they have to get their info? Right. From the same ppl we're protesting against. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
So it's all very relative.

Hehe! Thanks faile. With posts that big Im not getting involved <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

LOL!

Yes, I actually had the priviledge of meeting him when I was a student at UC Santa Barbara. Very down-to-earth fellow, but somehow his words tended to make you listen to what he had to say. Very sad situation Tibet is in.

no kidding. Seth's last post had far too much cheese for me to digest at one sitting. I'm worn out by it, so I will sleep and catch up with ya all later.

cheers

I do hope the war is over soon.
It may not become another world war, which will end the world as we know it...
chemical weapons, anyone...
Mind you, i do not say that we all will die then, i just say that there are going to be big changed.

And if bush wins (and he will..) i wont look up supprisedly if hwe starts to think that he should be leader of the world "in order to achieve world pease"....
he makes me sad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

not only you jvb, he makes everybody sad, except his bankaccount and his oil-mates

wow, i'm jealous. i want to meet the dalai lama so bad! i'd love to have a chat with him.

story about a very naive individual- i have a friend who lived in thailand for about nine years, and is a buddhist. she is currently attending aveda, a hair styling/cosmetic/massage school, so naturally there are a few girls who are a little slow on the uptake. one of the girls found out my friend was a buddhist, and in an effort to be friendly and curious, asked my friend what percentage buddhist she was.

% buddhist? LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

As Promised, here is a list of sites that document the many successes the United Nations has contributed to the world over the last half century. It really would be a two page document to list them here, so I have just posted some links that begin to document them for me. Note, I didn't even cover the thousands of important scientific publications that have come out of UNESCO. If you really believe the UN is just a shadow agency, then you have been brainwashed by the conservative media in your locale.

enjoy:

http://edie.cprost.sfu.ca/gcnet/ISS4-17d.html (quick summary)
http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/SAP/accompl.html
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2001/dsgsm131.doc.htm
http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/dag/symposium_docs/tabb.pdf
http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/un/whyunmat.html
http://www.clw.org/pub/clw/un/unsucess.html
http://www.unfoundation.org/un/un_facts.asp (find out where the funding comes from)

oh, and for Faile: here is a link to the efforts the UN has sponsred to help alleviate the suffering in Tibet:

http://www.savetibet.org/About/AboutList.cfm?c=12

cheers

I guess that post with those links was ment for me, eh?
-But first, I don't believe the conservative (or other) media in my area. I already said so in a former post.

And now you could post a couple of dozens links about what they didn't acomplish. These days they only publish things when it makes them look good. The world of science is ruled by money too, you know.
Scientific research needs a lot of $$$. So big companies sponsor research in their feild. But... when research shows that those companies are in the wrong the results never get published. And the researchers have to keep it hush hush or they'll get cut off.
Only recently scientists from all over the world complained about that. That it was almost impossible to do objective research. You get to see only what they want you to see.
Example:
With the trials against cigaret companies in the USA those been a bit more in the media again. When researchers first discovered how bad smoking is... theose companies had all results destroyed and even published some advertising movies about how healthy and good smoking is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
A couple of those companies been convicted a few times already. Let's take one located in Illinois.
On a last conviction it had to pay 10.1 billion $. Half of that money is supposed to go to smokers that ware "mislead by ads. saying that light sigarets waren't bad for your health". The other half is going to the state.
But what does the state do with that money? It invests it in... the sigaret companies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Becouse they're good for the economy of the state.
-If they ever get the money.

As for that list you posted... would you mind having a look at those websites again? They often kinda prove they're just propaganda too and... eh... make your post a bit contradictive.

Let's just take that quick summary to keep it simple:

[*]Maintaining peace and security - eh...where?
[*]Making peace - um... same question as above. Useally the UN only can go in to pick up the peaces.
[*]Promoting democracy, development, human rights, self-determination and independence, investment in developing countries - Aparently only in countries that are already considered to be democratic.
[*]Protecting the environment - Very big <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" /> on this one. All they can try to do now is try to restore environment.
[*]Preventing nuclear proliferation - Wonder how they feel about that in N-Korea and Pakistan (just to name a few). Or the USA... Bush backed out of that one for his star wars program.
[*]Strengthening international law - again, where? A lot of countries, including the USA, won't even recognise that internatial court they established in Holland.
[*]Handing down judicial settlements of major international disputes. - This is a joke. Right? (-again, they only go in to pick up the pieces. One of the biggest scandals (that even forced a goverment to resign): In former Yoegoslavia a whole village got slaughtered while they ware supposed to be under protection of the UN)
[*]Ending apartheid in South Africa - Claiming credit for that is typical. It's appaling. Credit for that should go to the ppl who really fought for their freedom there.
[*]Providing humanitarian aid to victims of conflict, food to victims of emergencies - If the UN would be competent enough to solve those conflicts they wouldn't have to provide aid later on. Most aid doesn't make it to where it should be anyway. And most aid comes from induvial countries.
[*]Aiding Palestinian refugees - Only on tv. That they even dare to put this up. That they never ware able to get anywhere in that conflict just shows how incompetent they are.
[*]Focusing on African development - Should we go ask Africans, who are still getting more poor every day about this?
[*]Promoting women's rights - They should promote a little harder than. Wonder how women in a lot of muslim and other Asian and African countries feel about this...
[*]Providing safe drinking water - ah, That must be why the biggest part of the children in the world have no safe drinking water yet.
[*]Eradicating smallpox - And keeping it alive in labs for biological warfare. - It even showed up again in western countries not so long ago.
[*]Pressing for universal immunization - Making us immune to misery?
[*]Reducing child mortality rates - by 1? Again, a lot more is done by individual countries and organisations.
[*]Fighting parasitic diseases - Same as for smallpox.

And so on. Some of the things on that list are to appalling to comment on. Some things are more or less twice inthere, just with differend words. And others are the result of another topic in the list.
Making a better world is never achieved by an organisation who's biggest worry is how to keep itself alive.
It's achieved by ppl and organisations who really go out there and don't apear in front of the cameras constantly becouse they're actually doing something.
The UN gets most of their money from "industrial countries". And a golden rule is: never bite the hand that feeds you. Most countries hardly pay anymore anyway. Or a lot less than what they're supposed to.

where exactly are you from again? i'd like to know who *your* leader is...

no one said we were the judge of the world, but pardon us for not sitting idley by like the french and the germans while this evil dictator kills thousands and thousands of his own citizens.

hey, that sounds like another evil dictator from germany named .

people wanna talk about how america isn't getting support from anyone? that's a load of BS. we now have over 40 countries on our side and recent polls indicate that roughly 80% of americans are supporting bush.

so what if countries like france don't support us? we have plenty of them that do. they didn't do jack to help liberate themselves when invaded, so it doesn't surprise me they don't want to help anyone else be liberated.

and all this talk about how the iraqis don't want want us to invade and kick saddam out? explain the following scene to me then:

a marine saw a one of those giant posters of saddam and he went over and started to rip it down. some of the iraqi people saw him and you know what they did to the marine? they helped him tear that junk down.

the war is on, and no amount of complaining is going to change that. i'm tired of people who live in free countries complaining about how we're trying to help free another country.

freedom is not free. freedom was paid for in and will continue to be paid for in . Not everyone in this world lives in freedom. The Iraqis don't, so when I hear a bunch of people who live in free countries who have the basic freedoms a lot of other countries don't, complaining about how we're going after saddam i shake my head sadly.

the world is not a utopia. they are bad guys out there. you can't talk them away, you can't debate them away and you can't rationalise them away.

i loved when bush told saddam he had three options, to get out, to surrender or to die.

This could have been solved in the first Gulf war, but you americans didn't help the iraqis then why should we believe this about libirating them then?

don't believe it. it's bullsh*t. bush will remove saddam, and institute a dictator of his choosing, who will be in debt to america and will probably have an american politician pulling his strings, so that bush can make sure nothing stands in his way.



80% of the people polled. you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say.



hmm. i just finished watching a show on the history channel about the french resistance against the nazis.

what i'm sick of is people yelling at protestors for not being around when saddam was gassing and murdering. well, you protest your own government when you disagree with what they are doing. american protesters against saddam would mean nothing.



thanks for agreeing with me, seth. thats exactly the point i was making about clear channel. that's why you should put more faith in non-profit media.

oh we didn't?

didn't we fight too didn't our soldiers die, didn't we belgians stop the german army from reaching northern france trough Belgium? you are so dumb thinking you americans came and help them stupid Europeans who let them be taken over by the germans. They helped a lot and we are greatfull but we were not sitting there watching them germans occupie us without resisting, My greatgrandfather was in the resisitance when we had been occupied after we battled the off for a long time, but the gestapo got to him. It was not America alone who won that war.

your damn right dragh!

@faile,
I put no faith in no media. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And protesting against Saddam wouldn't help... just like protesting against this war didn't help.

Bush will try to instal his own dictator. But I doubt if it would work. There are to many "groups" involved. The leaders of the Sjiieten are saying that they wanna let Bush and Saddam fight it out and then take over the country themselves. Also Turkey wants to control at least part of Iraq. And groups like Ansar Al Islam (radical, extreem muslim group) surely won't let Americans or their adepts rule the country. And I kinda expect Iran wanting to try to get control of some parts too. And western countries like France will want to protect their economical intrests there (Why you think France didn't wanna go to war... not becouse they care about Iraqi civillians that might get killed... where do you think the Iraqi air force got mirages?).
It's gonna be one big mess. With lots of different groups trying to take control.

@mickey,
Parts of your post is offensive to almost all Europeans here.
My grandfathers both been in the resistance against the nazi's. One of them was captured, tortured and send to a destruction camp. He survived and got a whole box of medals, for bravery, courage,... But he died before I was 1 year old. Ppl say he was a broken man when he returned from the camp. They also say he waited to die till he had seen his first grandson (me) couse that's what he been fighting for. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
Also, you forget all those other countries who fought against the nazi's. The British (who had to suffer the "blitz" for years) Australians, Polish (who got famous for attacking nazi pantzers on horses),... the list is very long.

And to get the facts right. There's a very big chance the USA would never have been here in WWII. If Japan hadn't attacked the USA and involved the USA in WWII. Before Pearl Harbor, the USA was only watching...

that's right, make sure your cover your ass, then spout opninons that parrot the conservative media view anyway. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


1. so why didn't you? too lazy to even post links? Or is it like I think, that you really know so little about it that you can't.
2. I didn't post very many links to actual UN publications (of which there are thousands), only to areas that summarize UN accomplishments (of which you seemed to think there weren't any).
3. You do not imply that the list of accomplishments is invalid, and in fact, state that these make the UN "look good"; so how exactly does your statement disagree with mine?
4. I could post links about what you "haven't accomplished" as well. Kinda pointless tho, yes? do we judge based on what someone has accomplished, or what they have not?



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> Oh, so now you are an expert on scientific research, eh? What's your field of expertise, rapid deployment of utter nonsense? I happen to have a master's degree in Integrative Biology from UC Berkeley, as such, I know scientists, and you're no scientist. The "world of science" to use your own simplification, is about a lot more than just money. If it wasn't, you'd probably be choking on industrial fumes, and scraping toxic waste from your front doorstep. Unless you yourself live in a complete dictatorship, I think you might want to reconsider your blanket statement that unpopular scientific studies are never published. It is actually the exception, rather than the rule, that real scientists don't publish their results becuase of fear of a lack of funding. Do you have no public funding of the sciences where you are from? Your argument here does not hold water. Moreover, it actually supplies significant argument for the exact opposite: The purpose of neutral organizations like the UN is to assist in research and publication of data that might be considered VERY unpopular in many circles.



Oh? show me where this occured? I'd like to see the results of debate amongst the scientific community about this, really. Do you have a link to this?

again, this only supports my argument FOR the UN. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />



*sigh* aside from the fact that i don't see what this has to do with research at the UN, again, if you weren't so brainwashed by the media, you could have tracked down any one of the thousands of PUBLISHED studies documenting the dangers of smoking since the 1950's. Believing that tobacco companies had "all results destroyed" is giving them a bit too much credit. The results they quashed were from their OWN INTERNAL RESEARCH STUDIES, not independent studies conducted by universities and other agencies. why do you think the surgeon general started putting warning labels on cig packages in the 70's? just on a whim? My point is, independent research can overcome political and economic bias, which is exactly why I support the UN!!! You are making my arguments for me!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />



put your money where your mouth is: define exactly the problems you have with the sources of the material, and why you believe them to be propoganda. I wouldn't have posted them if I thought them to be without basis in fact.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> Look, I agree that money and politics CAN have an unbalanced effect on what research can be done. But, isn't that the point to sponsoring independent research to begin with?? How could you create an organization that would be more balanced than the UN to sponsor independent research???

I don't see the point.
You convinient leave things out,
you exaggerate, change my words to your convinience,...

I don't post links simply becouse, yes, I'm to lazy, I don't care enough about it. A topic like the UN isn't worth it.
You'll never change my mind. Simply becouse I don't look at links and papers but at what I see around me. Not at what organisations say about themselves. But at what's going on in reality.
Like what's going on right now. I don't recall the UN supporting the war against Iraq...

I don't even have to get insulting about it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

[color:"yellow"] seth [/color] thats because they arent <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

oh, so you live in iraq? and are a member of the un? wow, i wish i lived there and didn't have to read the newspapers for my information.

or did you mean what you see in your country, where you get to formulate an opinion based on what you see and hear from other people... who must get their information somewhere... maybe from newspapers and tv?

i must admit that faile has a god point there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

a god point?? jvb, you give me too much credit... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

There is just so much crap in your post here, that I had to get some toilet paper to remove the overflow from my screen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />
It would just be too boring to me to deal with most of your unsubstantiated drivel, so I will just attack those points that at least have SOME logic too them:

general comments: If you had even bothered to read any of the links past the general summary (which I kinda figured YOU wouldn't <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), you would have the answers to many of the complaints you made, like where exactly the UN is involved in maintaining peace and security (East Timor, for example). This is my biggest criticism of your post: You didn't even bother to look at details involved in supplying the list of accomplishments, you just rolled over them with your own, unsupported, biased, OPINIONS!!! I am fast losing respect for you, my friend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />



Uh, I'd say the UN can't do its job without support from all participating countries, and the people that represent them. If the folks in the US would get off their ass and actually write letters to their representatives in support of the goals of the UN, perhaps taming nuclear proliferation would be an easier goal to achieve. However, most of them are just like you, too lazy to actually care to find out what the UN does, and why their goals actually support what most people say they really want in the world. As it is, why don't you do some research yourself and ask yourself the same question: Has the UN been invloved in helping to prevent nuclear proliferation, or not? Show us what you find out (don't just roll out your opinion).



*sigh* Ask yourself this question: was the UN involved in putting together the meeting in Kyoto? Then ask: How many other meetings has the UN sponsored in support of sustainable development? Who else is trying to sponsor global support for sustainable development? As to the second part of your statement: Is the environment completely destroyed? Why isn't it? Are rhino's extinct? Not yet, at least. Why aren't they? You seem to ill educated on these topics to even make a comment, and yet you are ready to condemn the ONLY global organization that works to provide answers to these questions, and provide support to stop illegal trading.



Fool. it less to do with competency, or goals, or missions, than it has simply to do with resources. I guess you didn't bother to read the link i posted on the UN's budget. The UN does not have the resources necessary to prevent a major conflict occurring between two antagonists in and of itself. If you would research the conflict in East Timor, you would see a good example of how the UN was too undermanned to prevent that conflict; and the "supporting" countries were too busy in other areas (or unwilling) to provide for logistical support until it was too late. If there were really full support for the goals of the UN, it would have prevented that massacre from taking place. Most aid HAS to come from supporting countries, as the UN IS NOT A COUNRTY, duhhhh. the UN helps to organize relief efforts, and supply personel to do so. "Most aid does'nt make it where it should be anyway". Sounds like a gross overgeneralization born of ignorance to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />. Care to document that for us?

At this point, I am beginning to wonder what you think the UN actually is? It's not a country with population hundreds of million strong with it's own economy and GNP, you know. It was put together by those who believed in the goals it stands for (or at least SAID they did), and it is a tragedy that folks like yourself have abandoned those goals in favor of what? cynicism? Political directions come and go, when the hawks die down in the U.S., there will again be interest in supporting the goals of the UN in the U.S. However, if we all let the grand idea of the UN die for no good reason, when the pendulum swings back towards support, what will we do then? Start another UN? doubt it. Grand ideas like the UN don't gain support easily. Just like democracies are not born easily.

Why don't you post a message stating the goals of the United Nations, just so I know you at least understand what you are criticizing!

huh? sounds like you are running away <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />. why don't you explain what things i left out, exaggerated, or changed???



Isn't that the whole point of this debate? I think you are too lazy to research the facts for yourself, and you go and prove my point for me! The UN a topic not worth discussion?? hmmm. I don't think many would agree with you on this one. I suppose global warming, nuclear proliferation, peace, freedom, and survival itself are also not topics worth discussing, eh <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" />


Well, you are either extremely nearsighted, or live in a VERY small place, then!


who's reality would that be?
hmmm. That's kinda the reason why I decided to start this little debate, eh? the UN didn't "support" the extermination of thousands of people in E. Timor either. Will not supporting the UN change that?



bah, if you think this is flame, you are more nearsighted than i thought. Don't backpeddle because I insult you, fire back, man! I have provided information to further the debate, along with some mud <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />. Please, do the same!

Hey, it's mickey! oh wooommmmbllle... you still around?



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> Why, so you can write a request to GW to have him blown up with cruise missiles?

I'm gonna give Womble a chance to respond to the rest.

cheers

Maintaining peace and security --> there still war
Making peace --> peace? i tought it was war?? I'm puzzeled they made peace and still they are fighting???
Strengthening international law --> which is broken, shouldn't there come some sanctions?
Orienting economic policy toward social need --> LOL
protecting the ozon --> still a hol in the ozon
Establishing "children as a zone of peace" --> oh so those children with their ak-47 or Galil are just playing

promoting ******** --> we don't need words but actions.

here's something i found very amusing and entertaining:

http://www.oddcast.com/vhost/bush/host.php?id=1

it's called dress 'm up dubya

And to get the facts right??? Uh, the USA was doing FAR more than just "watching" before we actually started sending regular troops over there. Guess you forgot about the 50 desroyers and cruisers we gave to Britain before we got "involved", or perhaps you forgot about the entire Lend-Lease act altogether, eh?

http://www.oddcast.com/vhost/bush/index.php?id=1099391796961910500

*sigh* not only did you ignore the rest of the links, but you even ignored my rebuttal, so here it is again:

"general comments: If you had even bothered to read any of the links past the general summary (which I kinda figured YOU wouldn't ), you would have the answers to many of the complaints you made, like where exactly the UN is involved in maintaining peace and security (East Timor, for example). This is my biggest criticism of your post: You didn't even bother to look at details involved in supplying the list of accomplishments, you just rolled over them with your own, unsupported, biased, OPINIONS!!! "

If your post is an attempt at support for Seth, making fun of my own position i would say "it's as feeble as the UN" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

The us supplied brittian, and that was it if it didn't happen in pearl harbor, The US wouldn't have fought.

Patriotism is naïvity

There is NO peace if there is still beeing fought, no matter the country.

So can I make a summary of my own:
- made peace ( I did make that some poeple didn't get beaten)
- promoted human rights ( supporting organization, posting on these forums war isn't right)

that list globalizes local things they have done.

You know this is what this thread started out as...

Isn't it really sad that a discussion of something beautiful had to change into a discussion of war? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

hmmm. I wasn't born yet, so i can't say for sure what would have happened. It's possible. and most these days in the US agree that it was a travesty the US did not get involved sooner.



Agreed, but it is still a very powerfull political tool.



Technically, this is of course, true. Not sure what you meant by it?

I menat the list stated made peace, wich they only did partially.

hmmm the more i think about it, the more i see it as a natural progression; along the lines of "how can there be light with no darkness to define it".

On the other hand, I would really like to see the original topic discussed further as well (perhaps as a new topic post?). There just isn't enough love to counter the darkness it seems to me sometimes. We could all agree to keep it on that topic, and not let it drift too far.

Fair enough, but it doesn't invalidate the value of the UN, does it?

Yes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> Very sad! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> And not beautiful at all.

I'm not going to let people who dwell on negativity ruin my love for life. And I'm not going to debate it either. I'll just keep working on the things that I have half a chance of improving, and let the negativists deal with their mudslinging faaaaaaaaaaaaaar away from me. They seem to be very happy doing so, and I am content to let them think that they are helping the situation.

Now that's some good creativity! good catch <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

gotta admit, that's a nice hat you picked out for him! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so nice, in fact...

here's what micheal moore has to say about this:

Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com

in the words of Dave King: "fighting for peace is like f**king for virginity"

um, makes a good sound bite, but the analogy doesn't logically play out in my mind... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> You can have peace after fighting, but can you have virginity after f**king? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

I think too much <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

why?? it only stresses your brain. no thinking is better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Oh? How's that working out for you then? I might try it if you can tell me how it has improved your life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

it hasn't, but it hasn't made it worse even <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

@Toejam,
Flooding the board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> with personal opinions and (wrong) info doesn't impress me at all.
But like I said. I just can't care enough about it to go on forever about it.
All these posts are useless. Reality is simply very different from the ideal you seem to have.
No matter how much you praise the UN. Ppl can still see what's really happening.
You can posts hundreds of posts about how wonderful the UN is. And maybe some ppl who believe everything they see would believe you.
But most ppl would just get bored. (like me, I didn't even bother to read all you posted couse it's the same idealistic stuff over and over again). And they would still see that things are very different in reality.
While you ware typing all that Iraq experienced how much influence the UN has on the USA and other countries.
And we seen that so often... The UN is saying this, the UN is saying that... but in reality countries/politicians just go on with what they are doing.
So you can post 1000's of times overhere how much you love the UN. It doesn't change a thing.
They can't even get along. How could an organisation that's so devided work efectively?

Fanatism is never good. It stops you from being critical and closes your eyes for the truth.

I don't have to live in Iraq to see what's going on there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Do you?
Media seems to provide us with more than enough info(?) from there.

Yes. I like to listen to ppl. You would be surprised about the differend views you get from one newspaper item.
So I guess my opinion is based on what I hear from different ppl, what I hear and see in different media and on my own judgement of things.
It doesn't hurt to listen to ppl who think differently than you before you form an opinion you know. And others might agree with you but becouse of different reasons. If you always read the same, watch the same, you're influenced.
I prefer to look at things from different sides before I create my opinion about it. I try to take everything in consideration. I'm rarely completely for or against something.
Like now... we both agree on this war being illegal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But I also try to see what it can lead to. Maybe a better life for the ppl there. Although I don't see that happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />
And I also try to look at things from a political point of view. The country I live in is a member of the UN, yes.
It's one of the leading countries against the war. But we've got elections comming up so I fear for most politicians it's just a popularity thing. (The politicians who are expected to lose much votes in the comming elections are now yelling the hardest against the war.)
And also it's politically not so smart for a tiny country to keep on flaming at one of their biggest trade/economic partners.
Do you see what I mean? There's often a lot more to an opinion or ppl stating something.
I try to find out what their motives are, what they get out of something they say. Becouse often (all the time? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />) they have they're own reasons why they say something. What they say and what they think is often very different.
Ppl get decieved often enough.

Like you, I'm against the war. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But it started anyway. And instead of protesting against it, what doesn't help anymore, I rather try to think of what will happen there.
And based on what I seen and heared so far, we can expect a big mess there. I think we already should starting protesting against the local wars that will start there.
The best thing that could happen to Iraq (in my opinion) is that it gets devided into different smaller countries. But I don't see that happen without war too. Becouse the leaders of all the different groups will probably try to get control of all the wealth in Iraq. And I also don't see any of those leaders caring more about human rights than Saddam does.
In all those years ppl still haven't learned to live together. And war is something that's part of every culture and even seems native to human nature.
No matter how you and I feel about it. This won't be the last war we'll see.

I agree, it won't be the last war, we've seen - but I won't give up that there will be a possibility one day to settle controversal interests between countries in a peaceful debating way. The UN was founded in this spirit (preserving peace)- it has gone astray, yes. But as long as we have no other international instrument for peace I consider the UN a good first step towards world peace.
Kiya

did you totally just not get what i was saying? talk about your "selective understanding".



he's saying fighting in the name of peace is like f'ing in the name of virginity, it makes no sense.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> opppps I made his a fav and got 120+ emails hehe. wihs I had internet conection at home <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> a lot of reading for one go... where should I start? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I just hate to think what Iraq is going to be like after the war with how hard bush is hitting it. Will we have to leave troops behind to keep the peace??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> Oh now my head hurts, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" /> I better stop thinking about it and just let it happen.

I hear ya, kiya. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
But I rather see a new organisation handle war/peace problems.
A new organisation that only handles world peace and human rights for instance. Nothing more.
And that has enough ppl in the field to make sure things happen.
Not like now, when they just say "tsk tsk, you shouldn't do that, you bad person, you" and then stand by and watch/wait till the conflict is over. That's just why nobody listens. They have no authority and no respect left.
There are to many conflicts in the UN internally. It's about to many things: trade, human rights, economics, war/peace, environment,...
Conflicts are bound to happen. Members will vote against a war becouse they have the economic intrests in the back of their heads (under preasure from the politicians or the homefront). Or, and that's even worse, members will vote for a war becouse they have economic intrests in mind.
I rather see a group/organisation that doesn't have to answer to no one. But ofcourse, becouse of the members being human that's dangerous too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

All that happened in the last years just made things worse.
The world has never been so devided. And it gets more divided every day. Countries fall apart into smaller countries. The muslim and western worlds are drifting further apart. The USA and Europe are drifting apart.
Worldpeace will always be an illusion...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

No chance for world peace? No I just can't believe it I want the star trek way of life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

World peace will only come after an almost world wide anillation IMHO. If only ten humans left alive the world will be at peace <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We can always pray that humans will evolve in time and throw aside our difference but... I'm deffinately not going to be alive to see it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Who said they're fighting in the name of peace?
I'm sure the ones who started the fight had other things in mind than peace.
What does make sense than?
Let it all go on, wait and see what will happen... while people die without any reason constantly?
To some that maybe may be peace. But it's not my kinda peace. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" />

I'm afraid you couldn't be more right.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Open letter of the author Paulo Coelho (The Alchimist) to the White House:



Thank you, great leader George W. Bush
March 18, 2003
By Paulo Coelho
Thank you for showing everyone what a danger Saddam Hussein represents.

Many of us might otherwise have forgotten that he used chemical weapons against his own people, against the Kurds and against the Iranians. Hussein is a bloodthirsty dictator and one of the clearest expressions of evil in today's world.

But this is not my only reason for thanking you. During the first two months of 2003, you have shown the world a great many other important things and, therefore, deserve my gratitude. So, remembering a poem I learned as a child, I want to say thank you.

Thank you for showing everyone that the Turkish people and their parliament are not for sale, not even for 26 billion dollars.

Thank you for revealing to the world the gulf that exists between the decisions made by those in power and the wishes of the people. Thank you for making it clear that neither José María Aznar nor Tony Blair give the slightest weight to or show the slightest respect for the votes they received. Aznar is perfectly capable of ignoring the fact that 90% of Spaniards are against the war, and Blair is unmoved by the largest public demonstration to take place in England in the last thirty years.

Thank you for making it necessary for Tony Blair to go to the British parliament with a fabricated dossier written by a student ten years ago, and present this as 'damning evidence collected by the British Secret Service.

Thank you for allowing Colin Powell to make a complete fool of himself by showing the UN Security Council photos which, one week later, were publicly challenged by Hans Blix, the chief weapons inspector in Iraq.

Thank you for adopting your current position and thus ensuring that, at the plenary session, the French foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin's anti-war speech was greeted with applause - something, as far as I know, that has only happened once before in the history of the UN, following a speech by Nelson Mandela.

Thank you too, because, after all your efforts to promote war, the normally divided Arab nations were, for the first time, at their meeting in Cairo during the last week in February, unanimous in their condemnation of any invasion.

Thank you for your rhetoric stating that 'the UN now has a chance to demonstrate its relevance', a statement which made even the most reluctant countries take up a position opposing any attack on Iraq.

Thank you for your foreign policy which provoked the British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, into declaring that in the 21st century, 'a war can have a moral justification', thus causing him to lose all credibility.

Thank you for trying to divide a Europe that is currently struggling for unification; this was a warning that will not go unheeded.

Thank you for having achieved something that very few have so far managed to do in this century: the bringing together of millions of people on all continents to fight for the same idea, even though that idea is opposed to yours.

Thank you for making us feel once more that though our words may not be heard, they are at least spoken - this will make us stronger in the future.

Thank you for ignoring us, for marginalising all those who oppose your decision, because the future of the Earth belongs to the excluded.

Thank you, because, without you, we would not have realized our own ability to mobilize. It may serve no purpose this time, but it will doubtless be useful later on.

Now that there seems no way of silencing the drums of war, I would like to say, as an ancient European king said to an invader: 'May your morning be a beautiful one, may the sun shine on your soldiers' armors, for in the afternoon, I will defeat you.'

Thank you for allowing us - an army of anonymous people filling the streets in an attempt to stop a process that is already underway - to know what it feels like to be powerless and to learn to grapple with that feeling and transform it. So, enjoy your morning and whatever glory it may yet bring you.

Thank you for not listening to us and not taking us seriously, but know that we are listening to you and that we will not forget your words.

Thank you, great leader George W. Bush.

Thank you very much.

Paulo Coelho

Thank you very much, Anthea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

And for all who don't know Coelho: Latinamerican author (Rio de Janeiro), wote many bestsellers, about finding yourself, finding peace and striving for your higher self.

The Alchimist. A fable about following your dream
The Valkyries. An encounter with the angels
Veronica decides to die
By the river Piedra I sat down and wept
Pilgrimage. a contemporary quest for Ancient Wisdom = this one is my favourite

exsqueeze me? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> who exactly is the one espousing personal opinions here? I have backed my posts with relevant information that you can read for yourself. What have you backed yours with? If it didn't impress you, why are you still here?


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Well, at least half of them are (yours) so far.


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" /> One, i never said the UN was wonderfull and perfect, I merely pointed out that it had significant accomplishments and was not irrelevant (to which I AT LEAST, posted some relevant supporting information). How do people see what's "really" happening? explain that to me please! You have not demonstrated anything to indicate that you yourself see what's "really happening.



again, I never said it was wonderfull, just relevant. Moreover, it is the only organization we have to work with at this point. do you have an alternative in mind? let's hear it!


*sigh* this goes back to my previous post about your behavior in this "debate": you fail to respond directly to ANY of the evidence that I have presented on the topic so far, and I have really not even begun to post any serious evidence yet (just a few summary statements and some relevant documents). It is folks who have attitudes like yours (they get bored if they have to read more than one sentence), <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> that is causing the lack of understanding of the real issues behind what's going on in the world.



???


not true at all. perhaps you forgot the 1st gulf war?


Actually, the remarkable thing is how much the UN HAS accomplished even with the divisions that one would naturally expect considering the over 190 member countries.



Gee, couldn't agree with you more there! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> But who is the one who has stopped being critical, you or me?

SETH TO FAILE:

>>>Like now... we both agree on this war being illegal. <<<

Gee seth, why is it that you think this war is illegal? Is it because it is proceeding without UN sanction and all that implies? Please, be specific here.

Phalzyr:
>>Oh now my head hurts, I better stop thinking about it and just let it happen. <<

NO!! don't stop thinking or using your head. There is simply too much at stake.

really.

as said many times before the UN hadn't given the green light for this war.

as said before the UN does nothing while their rules are broken.

sad is right. Sad for you if you think that abandoning the UN will result is something better being formed. You might want to take a look at how hard it was to form the original UN. You promote a new organization that will have independent powers; uh, hate to break it to you, but that is what the UN is supposed to be right now. Why isn't it? because countries like the (current) US fear all international organizations that might limit their ability to extend their own interests wherever they want. Look at the world court, for example. Of all the nations in the world that supported the idea (over 85 and counting) >Edit: make that 120 and counting<, only the US and Australia are against it at this point in time. Here is a little blurb about the court from the UN's website:

>>>In July 1998 in Rome, 120 Member States of the United Nations adopted a treaty to establish -
for the first time in the history of the world - a permanent international criminal court. This treaty entered into force on 1 July 2002, sixty days after sixty States have become parties to the Statute through ratification or accession.

"The long-held dream of a permanent International Criminal Court is nearing reality," United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said recently. "Our hope is that, by punishing the guilty, the ICC will bring some comfort to the surviving victims and to the communities that have been targeted. More important, we hope it will deter future war criminals, and bring nearer the day when no ruler, no State, no junta and no army anywhere will be able to abuse human rights with impunity." <<

The US has been working double time to bribe or extort countries into not accepting extradition for US citizens from the World Court. How can an international peacekeeping or justice organization work if the most powerfull exempt themselves from the rules? Why on earth would you believe that forming a new organization would be successfull, when the US is constantly trying to tear down what already exists?

With the way politics swing in the US, there may be an anti-hawk backlash in the US in the next elections (or at least somewhere in the near future, I hope). when that happens, if we have abandoned our commitment to peace that the UN represents, and the UN is disbanded, what will happen then? Where will the rule of law exist?

Is the whole world except the US wrong is supporting the UN, seth (over 190 countries, remember)? The only hope we have to keep the world from drifting further apart IS the UN. BTW, that is WHY IT WAS FORMED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

this shows the true role of the UN nowadays...

UN does nothing where? UN does nothing while the US breaks the rules, or when IRAQ breaks the rules?

the UN passed the toughest economic and military sanctions ever seen in the history of the world against Iraq. Inspections have resulted in the estimated destruction of over 90% of Iraq's long range and WMD capabilities (based on the reports of the UN weapon inspections team - I can find the link to the published reports, if you wish). the US has not publically published or related ANY direct evidence to the contrary (if you think otherwise - show me where i can see this evidence for myself). Besides that, the UN has very well established rules on when force can be used to resolve disputes, and Iraq had not yet reached the point where they the use of force against them could be legally authorized based on those rules.

I have no love for Hussein, or any tyranical dictator, for that matter. But what is at stake here is the very rule of law itself. Would you say in your own country that you could violate your own laws at any time just because they incovenience you, or you don't agree with them?

the real question is, will the UN now begin drafting resolutions imposing sanctions against the US for breaking the rules?

The bigger question is: with the direction the US is currently going in policy-wise, what will arise to balance against US interests? If you aren't going to support the UN, what are you going to support? terrorism?

I won't concede this point. Where has the UN actually violated its own rules? The only thing that has gone astray are the countries that violate the rules they swore to when they became members of the UN to begin with. The white house has defined "rogue nations" as those who violate international law. So now, is the US a rogue nation, too?

What, to sponsor endless debates? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, the US government is responsible for this war - and yes, the US government is a rogue government IMO and per US definition. I won't say the US nation is one, not with all those demonstrations going on.

When I wrote the UN has gone astray, I meant their members cowardice, not to condemn in public the US government's illegal war action = starting a war and violating International law in spite of having signed the UN regulations.
Kiya

@ toejam, what else? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

I have heard rumors of several resolution proposals being passed around behind the scenes at the UN, condemin the US for violating UN protocol, but have yet to find any published versions, yet. In the meantime, it's too bad we can't sponsor resolutions against ourselves, or I would like to submit this from Oregon State University:

Proposed Resolution

Against US War on Iraq
for the

OSU Faculty Senate

January 9, 2003 meeting

As put forward by the OSU Faculty for Peace and Justice

Brought to the floor as new business by OSU Senator John Selker representing the College of Agriculture

Preamble:

1) For there to be a just and peaceful world, it is essential that certain fundamental principles be upheld.

2) Paramount among those principles is that societies and the governments acting on their behalf should act to the fullest extent possible to honor and preserve the sanctity of life.

3) Also fundamental is the principle that war, and its consequent threat to the lives of innocent human beings and profound damage to ecosystems, should always be a last resort, employed only as absolutely necessary.

4) Also fundamental is that governments should uphold the rule of law, and should act consistently with international law, and with agreements and accords between and among nations developed to maintain order, peace and justice.

5) Further it is a historical role of institutions of higher education to serve as places of free and open intellectual exploration, to provide a venue for discussion and communication of topics of public debate.

6) These principles are of utmost relevance to Oregon State University given its dedication to: the centrality of intellectual basis in deciding the course of human affairs; the stimulation of inquiry; openness; social responsibility; and its responsibility to contribute to the well-being of society.

7) These principles are therefore also of utmost relevance to our Faculty Senate and our responsibility to share governance of this institution.

8) When a majority of our body agrees that actions of our government pose serious and grave threats to the preceding fundamental principles and to the well-being of society,

9) And when the silence of individuals and institutions will be construed as approval of these government actions,

10) And when our collective voice may contribute to respect for and adherence to the preceding fundamental principles,

11) Then it becomes our responsibility to contribute to the public dialogue by actively speaking our views.

From this basis, we conclude that

12) Whereas The United States (US) government has made clear preparation to take military action against Iraq;

13) Whereas Iraq has not been known through disclosed documents to have committed aggression against the US or other countries which might justifies a response of war;

14) Whereas The US government has presented no credible evidence that Iraq has intentions of harming the citizens of this country or that Iraq presents a threat to the US;

15) Whereas The United Nations (UN) Security Council, in unanimously adopting resolution 1441 enforcing the return of weapons inspectors to Iraq, asserts in Article 14 that the Security Council alone has the authority to determine what, if any, action to take regarding current or future Iraqi violations of their resolutions;

16) Whereas The UN Charter declares unequivocally in Articles 41 and 42 that the UN Security Council alone has the power to authorize the use of military force against any nation in noncompliance of its resolutions;

17) Whereas A pre-emptive war waged by our government without UN authorization would be contrary to the above mentioned fundamental principles;

18) Whereas The vast majority of the international community has not lent its support for war against Iraq;

19) Whereas Diplomatic solutions have not appear to have been exhausted, and therefore the fundamental intellectual responsibility of the US leadership to provide justification of war showing proof that all other means have failed has not been satisfied;

20) Whereas Through such a war OSU faculty, staff and students will have their careers, work and educations interrupted and lives put in jeopardy,

21) Whereas The lives of many innocent Iraqi civilians, who have already suffered enormously under Saddam Hussein's rule and UN sanctions; will be injured and killed;

22) Whereas The high cost of this war’s cost may further deepen the US economic crisis which continues to damage OSU;

23) Whereas A war with Iraq would threaten to further destabilize the Middle East, possibly leading to wider regional war and increased support for groups dedicated to terrorism, endangering the citizens of the US as well as the OSU community as they perform their work both within and outside the US;

24) Be it Resolved That the OSU faculty senate opposes the US engagement in war in Iraq at this time.

I'd sign that with my signature.
Kiya

I am following this discussion with profound interest. I also think that Toejam's outstanding argument for his case is one of the best I've seen.
As for Mickey... I am astounded that such ridiculous comments could come from a sopposedly intelligent person. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

Kiya-did those weapons inspections find ANY functioning long range weapons with biological/chemical/mass destruction capabilities? I'm curious...

Saddam is nothing, he has not DONE anything since the gulf/oil war to warrant this total invasion. I am going to laugh my ass off when the US forces waltz into Baghdad and find no weapons of mass destruction.(whatever the hell that means) I hope the UN will prosecute the Bush for his total arrogance.

Oh and Mickey, I saw at least 3 or 4 thousand people protesting the war in Boston. Take that and multiply that across all the cities in the US and add in all the people who have to work, such as myself who think that this war is totally wrong but don't have the time to protest and you have a LOT of people. I saw that CNN poll too, and I can tell you where to stick it. It bollocks.

The UK. I have known that Tony Blair has his nose so far up Bush's ass for a long time. This is totally embarrasing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> At least the population is not fooled by this crap. Comparing the 2 countries the UK has so much more of a right to free speech than the US.

Know why I really really object to this war? Its pathetic, its the biggest kid in the playground picking on the others and giving the teacher the finger. I wish Bush has been drafted in vietnam. Then we could have avoided all this crap.
If the US has such a problem with Saddam, WHY DID YOU PUT HIM THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE???? Who's next? This will never be over as far as I can see.

Another point as to how pathetic this war is. How many US/British troops have been killed by each other? I'm not surprised the US/UK wants to send its forces to a war. They're INCOMPETENT!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif" alt="" /> They need practice!

Ranting Womble signing off, sipping a very nice french Vodka. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

so let me understand this, it's okay to slander america and its citizens but no one else?



yeah, i admit some of what i said could have been worded better but i was in a bit of an aggravated mood to come on here and see anti-america comments. i apologise if i offended you.

and, yes the US was watching up to that point, but most of europe was getting its butt kicked up till that point. i'm not saying americans saved everyone else's , i'm just saying that america was the straw that broke the camel's back.

anyways, to get to what i wanted to post.

Iraq's leadership is crumbling into dust and it's people being liberated.

Despite constant assertions by the anti-war crowd that Saddam did not have banned weapons - he has been documented as using them against our forces last night and today. So far, they have only been SCUDs - hopefully the conflict will be over before he gets a chance to finally reveal where he's been hiding all of that Anthrax, Saren gas, and the nuclear campaign that Iraqi defectors have been warning about for over a year.

The coalition against Saddam's regime has grown to over 40 nations - despite claims from detractors that we were acting alone. More and more are coming aboard as they begin to see that Saddam really is THAT crazy.

Iraqi civilians that have alredy been liberated have been practically humping our soldiers in the streets. They have vehemently displayed their hatred for Saddam (despite the fact that he won 100% of their votes in a recent "election") and are obviously excited about the enventual liberation of the entire country.

The U.S. led coalition has set amazing precedents in noble attempts to limit not only civilian casualties but even Iraqi military casualties! We've spent enormous amounts of time and money making sure that soldiers in Iraq are aware that they do not have to die for Saddam. One of the biggest logistical concerns of our military in this conflict has not been the destruction of the Iraqi people, but rather the protection of their civilians from their own government and the safe surrender of the fighting forces.

Why then, are there still people who are against this operation?

Is it because they feel that Hans Blix and his teams should have been given more time? Despite the fact that most naysayers still don't realize that Blix and his people were NOT there to find banned weapons - people still think that he should have been given more time. Blix himself also recently expressed no regret or outrage that Saddam had chosen war over simply handing over his weapons.

People are now saying (as was predicted by the more thoughtful of journalists) that Saddam is now somehow justified in using the weapons that he was not supposed to have. How does this work? Are these people trying to say that it is better for Saddam to actually use these weapons on people than to simply give them up peacefully? Do people really believe that if Saddam were willing to go to war with the most powerful military coalition ever devised simply because he wants to keep his weapons that he would somehow have been open to letting U.N. inspectors find them? Anyone willing to risk their lives, their country, and their people's lives would certainly not let a few inspectors stumble across a few weapons. Let's step back into a reality for a bit.

So what is it? Again, I'm at a loss. Is it because of the loss of life? Well, I've already pointed out that this campaign is more "life-friendly" than any campaign devised of it's size in history. Also, it's a fact that Saddam is responsible for YEARLY more of his own people as were killed in the ENTIRE Gulf War 1. Imagine that - Saddam kills more Iraqis in ONE YEAR every year than a U.S. led coalition did in outright war 12 years ago in which Iraqi casualties were NOT such a big concern. In liberating Iraq, we are saving lives - so that can't be the reasoning.

So? Why are people still against it? Well, in actuality - most people support it. In recent polls, the vast majority of peoples support the U.S. President in his actions and agree that the U.N. had failed miserably. To add insult to injury, more and more countries are signing up daily to become a part of what is now the beginning of freedom and new life for the Iraqi people.

Why are people still against it? I really can't say - other than to say that these people are REALLY against Bush and are simply using this war as an extension of him to . To those people I would like to offer this thought: You may our President - you may even us. I hope you realize, however, that we are bringing to the Iraqi people the gift of freedom and a new life away from a terrible dictator whom they've lived under in fear for about 30 years. You can go ahead and Bush and the U.S. - but, please - look at what you're REALLY against here.

The regime is shutting down and soon the Iraqis will be free. Be happy for them, if nothing else.

A little better, Although I still think you live in CNN heaven.

Oh Bush will liberate the world for us and freedom will be for all! OOOOOOOOO! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Jesus......H........Christ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I ask again, why is this man more revered than a King?? Bringing 'freedom' to the world has always been one of the dictums of a conquerer..

Who's next then eh? I reckon we mayaswell move onto Iran sice all the troops are there.......

Mickey, I don't know how the media in the USA function at the moment:

Have you seen all those demonstrations in Arab countries? Some have been killed by the police, trying to keep down riots. I call it Bush-War, ok? This Bush-War will cause a very deep gap between the Arab world and the Western one - Bush is shattering everything that has to do with peace and coming together.

How come, the battle is raging in some Iraq cities, the harbour one in particular? No, Mickey, this Allied invasion humiliates the Arab heart and pride - how will Bush mend that? With money? Do you call this liberation?Don't tell me you really believe this bombardement on Bagdad is only going to hit military buildings? I heard a report of a German novelist living in Bagdad at the moment and her reports were terrible: Civilian quarters are being attacked, specially around the University quarters were she lives. the hospitals are in bad shape because of the Embargo, civilians are trying to rescue their buried people with bare hands - no heavy gear cause of the Embargo. Is this liberation?
The Bagdad population is without protection there are nearly no bunkers, they stay in their houses and hope they are not hit. Have you seen all those destructions on TV??? Liberation for death?

Young Iraqi here in Germany are signing up to become Iraq soldiers, they will be merely cannon fodder

What about the huge demonstration in San Francisco (20000 IIRC) and 1200 were arrested by Amerian police

IMO you may use examples out of Nazism and 2nd World War, I didn't live at that time, so I feel no offense in your words, have no responsibility to what happened at that time. I live now: And now I feel responsibility and speak up.
Kiya

I'm not mad at you Mickey, but I'm mad about the US desinformation policy - your mass media are "controlled" by the Government, reducing themselves to a megaphone for mislead patriotism - and this in a country where free press was so important.. Where is Woodward??

This Bush-War causes death not only in Iraq but all over the world, there where demonstrators are being killed - civilians - Bush has a lot of blood on his hands. And he will isolate the USA, this is sad. You are a grand nation - but I'm very sorry, a great deal of your population is sadly mislead and desinformed.

MICKEY:

>>soon the Iraqis will be free<<

or dead. Current food rations estimated by the UN indicate that most Iraqi's have only 2 days supply of food currently. I haven't seen any indications that relief will arrive in time.

I suppose being dead is one way to be free, tho.

Why drop bombs at all? They are innacurate. If Bush really wanted to capture and bring to justice Saddam then he should have the guts to send in troops to hunt for him. Not blow Bagdad to smithereens and search through the pieces to see what's left. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" />

Yes, and no humanitary help from outside, no Red Cross = the people are dying there - dying.
Kiya

Godammit, this whole situation pisses me off..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

i'm not dead yet.

No, Faile, you're not dead <giving you a hug>. There are a lot more people like you - very brave, demonstrating, keep it up - for the sake of yourself and for a more differenciated view others have about your country, hm?
Kiya

@Womble: I don't know about weapons - I only know the report SCUD's had hit Kuwait was a false report - propaganda. And those surrendered Iraqi soldiers on the road with a white flag - propaganda. Ripped apart by journalists/army specialists: Having a neat white flag properly on a stake and running on the road towards American was a frame (correct word? fraud?)

sighs

i'll be honest, i've been arguing with people about this war for a long time now and i am tired.

i'm not quite sure how my thread on love turned into this. whatever your arguements for or against the war are, it doesn't matter anymore.

all the anti-war protests in the world no matter where they're held or how many people attend them will change the fact the war has started.

some people argue that bush is only doing this for the oil and others argue that he's doing it to get saddam out of power and to liberate the iraqi citizens.

this can be argued up hill and down, inside and out until we're all blue in the face but all of it is mere speculation just like the numbers the UN is releasing about how many people will wind up .

we will only know for sure when the war is finally over. anything anyone says at this point is all recycled.

no one can really say anything new, we're just rewording the old stuff and package it as a new diatribe. which is why i am not replying to anyone's post in particular.

as for me, i am going to devote my time and energy into supporting and praying for the troops who are fighting for the right reasons, which is to liberate iraq from an evil dictator who kills more of his own people every year than all the iraqi's that died in the first gulf war. that is, in my opinion, the right thing to do now.

And if you have prayers left, Mickey: Maybe one or two for the suffering Iraqi civilians?
Kiya
I'm an aethist, I don't pray... I'm not sarcastic now about prayers, ok?

@mickey,


>>and, yes the US was watching up to that point<<

uh, doing a lot more than watching, actually. Remember the Lend-Lease act? The funny thing is, american's attitudes towards this war were mostly shaped by the same machine that shaped them in WWII, it's just much more efficient now.

>>, but most of europe was getting its butt kicked up till that point. i'm not saying americans saved everyone else's , i'm just saying that america was the straw that broke the camel's back.<<

and your point? gee, the french made major contributions during the US war for independence; I don't see them attempting to use it as justification these days.

>>Iraq's leadership is crumbling into dust and it's people being liberated.<<

uh, hmmm. so far americans have been met with resistance all along the way. relatively few of the Iraqi defense forces have actually surrendered, and the Fedyeen (sp?) are now beginning coordinated attacks on US rear positions and supply lines. Sound like the leadership has crumbled to you?

>>Despite constant assertions by the anti-war crowd that Saddam did not have banned weapons - he has been documented as using them against our forces last night and today. So far, they have only been SCUDs <<

It's not just the anti-war crowd that are asserting this, but the UN inspectors themselves. In fact, it is only the US and UK governments that are asserting anything else. I got news fer ya, the missiles used so far against the US were NOT PRORSCRIBED BY UN RESOLUTION - those missiles are short range ballistic missiles, rather than the long range ones actually proscribed by resolution. Moreover, Iraq was busily destroying medium range missiles at the request of the UN before the US decided to invade. And... think this one over brainiac ... if the missiles fired at the US are "weapons of mass destruction" then so is my slingshot! We have done more damage to our troops and allies retalliating against these "Weapons of Mass Destruction" than the weapons themselves have done! (we managed to shoot down a british jet with the weapons we use to defend against these so called "major threats")

>>- hopefully the conflict will be over before he gets a chance to finally reveal where he's been hiding all of that Anthrax, Saren gas, and the nuclear campaign that Iraqi defectors have been warning about for over a year.<<

I have to agree that I also hope the same. I also hope for your own sanity that they at least find SOME real evidence of any of the WMD's you list, as there hasn't been any publically released so far. What will you do if, after all is said and done, no significant weapons from your list are actually found. What will you believe then?


>>The coalition against Saddam's regime has grown to over 40 nations - despite claims from detractors that we were acting alone. More and more are coming aboard as they begin to see that Saddam really is THAT crazy.<<<

uh, exsqueeze me, but only 3 nations have pledged troops, and the bulk of the forces still are represented by the US (over 85%). this is a far cry from the 1st gulf war. Moreover, if you look at how the US got those "40 nations" to sign on in "support" you will find that most climbed on after being offered very magnanamous grants, or were privately extorted by the US adminstration. VERY FEW are offering anything but their name in support.

>>>Iraqi civilians that have alredy been liberated have been practically humping our soldiers in the streets. They have vehemently displayed their hatred for Saddam (despite the fact that he won 100% of their votes in a recent "election") and are obviously excited about the enventual liberation of the entire country. <<<

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> uh, even the primary US media hasn't shown this to be the case. What the hell is your source for this info?

>>The U.S. led coalition has set amazing precedents in noble attempts to limit not only civilian casualties but even Iraqi military casualties! We've spent enormous amounts of time and money making sure that soldiers in Iraq are aware that they do not have to die for Saddam. One of the biggest logistical concerns of our military in this conflict has not been the destruction of the Iraqi people, but rather the protection of their civilians from their own government and the safe surrender of the fighting forces.<<

Gees, I haven't heard anyone parrot the conservative media spin on this so well since Nixon times. One, war propaganda to attempt coercion into surrender is nothing new. It's been done since before WWII. Why? because it's CHEAPER to do it that way than waste ammo. Here is a direct quote from one of the soldiers on the front line who I watched being interviewed last night:

reporter to soldier: I have heard it is difficult to tell the civilians from the combatants (here). What orders have you been given if it looks like a civilian might be hostile?

soldier: I have a green light to shoot any potential threats.

reporter: even if it looks like a civilian.

soldier: yes.

even so, the collateral damage from the war directly probably will not be the largest source of civilian casualties. It is more likely to be from starvation as no aid workers can get Iraqi civilians at this point, and their food supply is running out.

>>Why then, are there still people who are against this operation?

Is it because they feel that Hans Blix and his teams should have been given more time? Despite the fact that most naysayers still don't realize that Blix and his people were NOT there to find banned weapons - people still think that he should have been given more time. Blix himself also recently expressed no regret or outrage that Saddam had chosen war over simply handing over his weapons.<<

NO! the reason so many are against this war is that they see the repercussions of going against the rule of law. How on earth is an illegal war without international sanction going to curb terrorism? Terrorists don't have "countries" they mostly exists as loose knit groups. getting rid of saddam may reduce (I say may, as there really isn't any evidence that he has sponsored terrorism against the US since 1990), one potential threat, while giving impetus to dozens or even hundreds more. Where will it end? With only the US left and all other countries bombed back to the stone age?

Just because Blix is upset that Saddam did not surrender (what is your evidence of this, BTW) does not make what the US did any less upsetting.

>>People are now saying (as was predicted by the more thoughtful of journalists)___Which Journalists would these be? Rush Limbaugh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> ___ that Saddam is now somehow justified in using the weapons that he was not supposed to have. How does this work? Are these people trying to say that it is better for Saddam to actually use these weapons on people than to simply give them up peacefully? <<<

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> No, you moron! I guess you missed the whole cold war, huh? What they were saying is that it was extremely unlikely that Saddam would use WMD with the threat of destruction of his regime hanging over his head. Now that there is no longer an implied threat (we invaded), what has he got to loose? Aside from this, the discussion was purely hypothetical as there was no evidence presented to indicate he even had them to use.

>>>Do people really believe that if Saddam were willing to go to war with the most powerful military coalition ever devised simply because he wants to keep his weapons that he would somehow have been open to letting U.N. inspectors find them? Anyone willing to risk their lives, their country, and their people's lives would certainly not let a few inspectors stumble across a few weapons. Let's step back into a reality for a bit.<<<

Indeed, let's get back to reality. One: Saddam did not declare war on the US. If he were willing to go to war, wouldn't he want to fire the first shot?
He doesn't care about his weapons, he cares about keeping power. that's it.
UN inspectors did not complain (the UNMOVIC team) that they did not have full access. They simply were not finding any WMD's. If all of these weapons existed, and the americans knew where they were, why didn't they tell the inspections team?

>>So what is it? Again, I'm at a loss. <<

no surprise here. You need some strong glasses to see past your propaganda driven world.

>> Is it because of the loss of life? Well, I've already pointed out that this campaign is more "life-friendly" than any campaign devised of it's size in history. Also, it's a fact that Saddam is responsible for YEARLY more of his own people as were killed in the ENTIRE Gulf War 1. Imagine that - Saddam kills more Iraqis in ONE YEAR every year than a U.S. led coalition did in outright war 12 years ago in which Iraqi casualties were NOT such a big concern. In liberating Iraq, we are saving lives - so that can't be the reasoning.

So? Why are people still against it? <<

As i mentioned before, they are afraid of losing legitimacy, of losing the rule of law, of actually INCREASING the terrorist threat against the US. You obviously have nothing to fear because you blindly ignore the real danger here.

>> Well, in actuality - most people support it. In recent polls, the vast majority of peoples support the U.S. President in his actions and agree that the U.N. had failed miserably. <<

those two do not go together. check your stats.

>>To add insult to injury, more and more countries are signing up daily to become a part of what is now the beginning of freedom and new life for the Iraqi people.<<

what the hell does that mean? are you signing up to be a part of a new life for the Iraqi's? why don't you ask the afghanis what they thought of our "help".

>>Why are people still against it? I really can't say - other than to say that these people are REALLY against Bush and are simply using this war as an extension of him to . To those people I would like to offer this thought: You may our President - you may even us. I hope you realize, however, that we are bringing to the Iraqi people the gift of freedom and a new life away from a terrible dictator whom they've lived under in fear for about 30 years. You can go ahead and Bush and the U.S. - but, please - look at what you're REALLY against here.<<<

*sigh* all of this is just regurgitation of your previous missive, no reason to respond further

>>The regime is shutting down and soon the Iraqis will be free. Be happy for them, if nothing else. <<

I certainly will, for the ones that survive, that is. What i won't be happy about is what happens to the rule of law in the world because of this. I won't be happy when china uses this as an excuse to invade Taiwan, or N. Korea uses it as an excuse to launch a pre-emptive strike on S. Korea. I won't be happy about those who are called "cowards" and unpatriotic because they believe that this war is not a good thing for the US, nore the rest of the world.

Will you be happy about these things, I wonder?

Have to disagree with you on this point. Am I incorrect in saying that Bush has sent over 250,000 ground troops in at this point? The idea with the bombs is to remove command and support centers, and to soften up armor and troops before moving in with ground forces, in order to minimize american (and allied) losses. Standard military proceedure since WWI. As far as anyone can tell so far (there are plenty of witnesses on scene, tho I have to say I am not one of them), 90% or more of the bombing strikes have been against government buildings directly. This is not carpet bombing in any sense of the word. At least technology has allowed for SOME control in modern warfare. Iraq has reported several hundred injured, but only 1 or 2 civilians dead in Baghdad so far (EDIT: that changed big time on sun/mon. it's now up to around 200 +, so say the Iraqis). I have to say, considering that one would think that Iraq would pump up civilian casualty stats, this is pretty remarkable. However, it also seems to have completely failed to remove any significant communication or leadership infrastructure as well. In the end, it will for sure come down to ground skirmishes in Baghdad.

@MICKEY:
sighs

>>i'll be honest, i've been arguing with people about this war for a long time now and i am tired.<<

aren't we all.

>>i'm not quite sure how my thread on love turned into this. whatever your arguements for or against the war are, it doesn't matter anymore.<<

technically, if you look back, it was simply because you couldn't post the "i" in girl, which lead to a discussion of censorship, which let, naturally, to a discussion about censorship in the current conflict. Amazing as it may seem, if you could have posted that "i" from where you were, it never would have gone this direction. Interesting, huh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And, yes, it matters EVEN MORE now what the arguments are, as we as a country will have to decide what road we take from here. There is no sitting on the fence any longer. If you think the repercussions from our current actions will end with the war, you are seriously deluding yourself.

>>all the anti-war protests in the world no matter where they're held or how many people attend them will change the fact the war has started.<<

Nope, but maybe it will make an impact on those who are thinking about the next one.

>>some people argue that bush is only doing this for the oil and others argue that he's doing it to get saddam out of power and to liberate the iraqi citizens.

this can be argued up hill and down, inside and out until we're all blue in the face but all of it is mere speculation just like the numbers the UN is releasing about how many people will wind up .<<

no, it's not all just speculation. I know it is hard, and tiring, and difficult, but as Molder would say: "The truth is out there!" Believe that and look for it yourself. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance!


>>we will only know for sure when the war is finally over. anything anyone says at this point is all recycled.<<

again, I doubt this, there are still things just now being released about things that happened during world war 2.

>>no one can really say anything new, we're just rewording the old stuff and package it as a new diatribe. which is why i am not replying to anyone's post in particular.<<

repackaging = rethinking; at least for me, the more I see, the more i become interested in getting to the bottom of things. What you are saying sounds like you have given up on your own search.

>>as for me, i am going to devote my time and energy into supporting and praying for the troops who are fighting for the right reasons, which is to liberate iraq from an evil dictator who kills more of his own people every year than all the iraqi's that died in the first gulf war. that is, in my opinion, the right thing to do now. <<

fine and dandy. Prayers couldn't hurt. but when you have the energy again, you have resources at your disposal should you become curious as to why others believe as they do, or maybe why you even believe what you believe...

cheers

KIYA:
>>The Bagdad population is without protection there are nearly no bunkers, they stay in their houses and hope they are not hit. Have you seen all those destructions on TV??? Liberation for death?<<

I saw interviews with Iraqi families that said they would not use the existing bunkers because of what happened in the '91 conflict when the US tageted and destroyed a civilian bunker, thinking it was a military one. so it doesn't even matter if there are enough bunkers. the interviews i have seen remind me of interviews with Londoners during the blitz in WWII. they are so used to being bombed they just go on with their regular business, and hope for the best.

>>Young Iraqi here in Germany are signing up to become Iraq soldiers, they will be merely cannon fodder<<
yup, but at least it shows they believe in the sovereignty of their country, as I am sure they are not going to "support saddam"


>>your mass media are "controlled" by the Government, reducing themselves to a megaphone for mislead patriotism - and this in a country where free press was so important.. Where is Woodward??<<

Eh, it's nowhere near complete control. They can't control the Associated Press (AP), nor many independent press organizations. I read articles from the AP and others all the time that make me question what's going on. for example, in yesterday's New York times, there was prominent article on how the CIA itself was blowing the whistle on Bush's supposed links between Iraq and terrorism:

"The forged documents were not created by the CIA or any other U.S. government agency, and CIA officials were always suspicious of the documents, American intelligence officials said. But the information still ended up being used in public by Bush."

so there ya go, still some free press here. It's not all doom and gloom, but a lot of the popular media seem to be pressured to tow the "Bush" line, for whatever reasons. It is a positive sign that even the CIA is becoming wary of Bush.

sounds good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> what brand would that be? I like lemon absolut that has been sitting in the freezer for a week, myself!

that's very nice of you, can i get one too?

I think Faile was refering to Womble's new sig: "bring our yer dead" is from the Monty Python movie "the holy grail".

Well, the number of posts i am making in this thread by myself tells me that the rest of you have gone beddy-bye (sleep), so I'll catch ya all on the flip side.

i was referencing monty python, but i like hugs better. *hugs kiya back* i didn't realize the post above were about dying people, or i would have been clearer. i'm sick. i can't think right. my head is all stuffy.

and holy crap, toe, that was a long post earlier. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

FAILE:

and holy crap, toe, that was a long post earlier. <<<

heh. I call 'em like I see 'em.

cheers

Well, the German novellist living in Bagdad said something different - maybe both is right: Not enough, not enough sheltered and maybe a death cage.



Good to hear - I saw an interview with the editor of the Sun and other newspapers (forgot their names) and their arrogance and war propaganda made me sick. Is it true: Iraq war prisoners are shown clearly whereas American war prisoners are shown with hidden faces? Geneva Convention valid only for US?
Threats to move US soldiers out of Germany over to Poland - so Germany, suffering from economic problems, would get hurt more? Not that I would mind that, I'm quoting this only as one example for the arrogance I've heard.
Kiya

KIYA:

Geneva Convention valid only for US? <<<

It would appear so, we conveniently officially label the prisoners at guantanomo bay, Cuba "not prisoners of war", just so we don't have to follow the rules. This is definetly something I wish the popular media would cover a bit more when they talk about american POW's. Before the war with Iraq got going, they used to actually cover this issue, now that it has started tho, all of those prisoners at guantanomo seem to have been forgotten.

Yes not only the arrogance bothers me, but the constant labeling of "protesters" as anti-american really bothers me as well. More than bothers; makes me very angry, in fact.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/memad.gif" alt="" />


oh and BTW, do you have links to the news sources you trust, and the popular ones in Germany? I'm always curious at to the different spins on things. I used to listen to the BBC a lot before I moved to the desert (no carrier here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/down.gif" alt="" /> )

here is a link to one proposed UN resolution condeming the war in iraq:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/24/sprj.irq.arab.league/index.html

interesting comments from George Sr. to his son before the war:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605441,00.html

I just had to post this, from the official white house (.org <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) website. Now THIS is a headline:

"Complete Text of President Bush's Orgasmic Rebel Yell Heralding the Launch of Operation Godless Iraqazoid Smackdown "

link:

http://www.whitehouse.org/news/2003/031903.asp

Hilarious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Errrr, I still reckon the 10% of bombs that miss is 10% too much. Bagdad appears to be quiet now though. You could actually hear the dissapiontment in the CNN reporter's voices. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't civillians work in government buildings too??

Still aint right.

PS. the Vodka was a rather nice bottle of Grey Goose...

but we do all know that the official whitehouse site is .gov, right?
but i like the .org site better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

well, yeah, i do that too. but since i was talking about the troops i only mentioned them. been praying for them for a long time.



stupid mall computer...

I think this has been a very good discussion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
I'm also glad to find out that I'm not the only one who disagrees with what is happening in the world today. Horay for mall computers.

Whats interesting is that I originally came to the forum for game info. (provided more than adequately by Dragon+Kiya) Now I'm hooked on writing here. Finished divdiv ages ago.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

me 2 womble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
i stopped playing ages ago to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
i didn't even play it anymore on the old forum <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Yes you are, you'll be stone dead in a minute. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

i'm about to stop playing it without having beat it yet...

Don't like it much?

oh i like the game and all, just the technical difficulties and such get to me.

Ah, pity. Its a really cool game when it works. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

yes, you're right, any civilian causualties are too much. I just meant that at least it isn't WWII style carpet bombing.

Grey Goose? I'll have to try that. Best straight, on the rocks, what?

well, sounds like this is winding down, so I will just post a couple of final links for those who might like to continue investigating the UN and related issues:

about the UN and its history:

http://www.un.org/News/facts/

good place for open debate on politics and war, etc:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/home/index.jsp

Cheers, all.

i feel happy.
(i wish there was some way to type how he said that. i think it's one of the best lines in the film.)

Just before he gets clubbed in the head. If only it were so easy to get rid of annoying relatives. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
I personally liked the black knight.

'Come back 'ere, I'll bite yer legs off!'

Toe-the grey goose was a present from a friend of mine. I'm sure you can find it easily though. Very nice straight up.
I see the british killed 2 more of their own soldiers today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, the bombing isn't carpet-style a.k.a. 'good old' bomber Harris. How many german cities did he level?

The news here function like this:
During peace: As bad as you can find no good news to be found
During war: as good as you can find bury the bad unless it is too obvious.

Of course I always knew this so take that in stride, I haven't been watching the news a lot but just enough to get the gist(sp?). I have yet to hear anything of civilians being killed, a lot of emphasize on the quality of our bombs being so accurate they could hit a nat, etc. I listend to more than CNN to but pretty much the same, going on and on about Saddam trying to use disinformation agaisnt us(The river seen), and not answering question during answer sessions. (not that I know of...)

Pesonally I thought the video of the iraqian civilian takign a shoe to Sadam's poster as soldiers tore it down, was <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> and staged (I mean he even posed/smiled at the camera). They used this event as (all iraqians hate sadam vibe) and keep on showing it over and ... errr.

I was watching an interview this morning with some shaven-headed army tool spokesman on CNN. He was asked about the USA bombing civillians in Bagdad, in particular blowing up the market there. His reply was comical, stating that the Iraqi repuplican guard had done it to blame it on the US. Also there were some before and after shots of bombs blowing up supposed warehouses, military camps etc. which looked like any old building to me.

New evidence of WMD. In an Iraqi hospital was searched to reveal chemical warfare suits, nerve gas antidote and some other crap. Er, where are the missiles guys?

The Iraqis have so far shot 10 missiles into Kuwait, none of wich were scuds and were probably the ones the weapons inspectors were going to destroy. None were loaded with anything othere than conventional warheads either. All shot down by patriots.

So far the US has fired 200 cruise missiles at Bagdad, most of which hit thier supposed targets. And there are no civilian casualties?? Come on....

This is highly interesting, although I admit I did not read every single post there is. I was wondering however about one thing. Is there ANYONE in here, and I mean any single person that fits the bill please say "aye", that does *not* wish this war to end as swiftly and as bloodlessly as can be? And if there is, mind you specifying why this is? I am not on an accussing mode or anything, and my question is merely a philosophical one.

well, since i never wanted this war in the first place, of course i want to be over!

of course i want this over with.

i don't like war any more than a liberal but i feel sometimes it's necessary.

LOL- read this!! funny for everybody!

how to survive a terrorist attack

hehe, that IS funny

I want this war to go on as long as possible, I just love seeing people killed... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Not really... Anyway I wanted to reitterate on the no good news during peace thing I said for Kiya, there are three exceptions to this rule.
A. Nothing else to report on so need to filll time frame...
B. Follow up of the really bad news(i.e. quick statement)
C. Seems to be a miracle...(their words not mine)

As far as news of this war goes I wathed 2+ hours yesterday and doubt if I watch any more till it is over this reporting is far worse than even last war. I got almost no information from CNN or the other channel I watched. I want hard facts not day to day life during the war of blow joe... I did however here about iraqian civilians being killed though but in a way you want like Kiya. Out of the 2+ hours this took up ummm ohhh 10 seconds(that what I meant by buried). On top of that they came off like this:

some reporter: "Our bomb are sooo precise we hit all our targets perfectly...Some Iraqians(hint of sarcasm) say that some civilians were killed but we have no reports from our people..." then later "Sadam's regiem is putting civilians in the middle of the battles on purpose...Idiot(no they didn't say this word but the way they stated it might as well) Iraqian civilians are just wandering around the streets in the towns that are being attacked when they should staying indoors."

Kiya does this give you a hint of our news style over here? At least last war they gave hard facts frequents enough for us occassional listeners to gather how many of us/them were hurt bombs used etc, but this one seems to be <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> stories about this one individual or telling what the troops are planning on doing(taking this bridge or just took this town(nice enough to show picture but not say where until much after fact. Picture helped me a lot not...Prob locals would recognize it easily though <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ...)

>>Kiya does this give you a hint of our news style over here?>>

Yep, it does <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> I prefer German regional TV - they have their reporters nearby - but I read between the lines, too. There are quite a few journalists who have spent many years in the Arab world and written books. BTW the rainbow press over here scolded a lot in the beginning, about Germany isolating itself, disturbing the German/American relations etc. since so many young people are demonstrating daily over here, refusing to go to school - they've changed their tone.

I fear the Vietnam trauma (in the US) could be added by the Iraq trauma... if we all will be informed about all details.

The only thing I can repeat over and over again: Being born somewhere is an accident of birth, nothing else. Developing own virtues, self-responbility, is far more important than being proud/ashamed of having this/that nationality.
Kiya

Kiya - "The only thing I can repeat over and over again: Being born somewhere is an accident of birth, nothing else. Developing own virtues, self-responbility, is far more important than being proud/ashamed of having this/that nationality."

Couldn't agree more... Have your own ideas about who you are and what goes on in the world, don't be a sheep. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

[sighs] I hear from other american people that they are given no news. So, in a very brief report, the news are as follows: 50 american dead, most of them outside Vasorra city. 350 Iraqis dead, most of them women and children, another 2000 wounded. Iraqi communications centre bombed today at greek time 2.30 approximately (third attack) by tomahawk missiles in Bagdad. Bagdad hospital bombed this afternoon. Muslim nations announced Jyhad, muslims are gathering forces from every country. Turkey-Iraq front breached by parachooters, sorry don't know the time. I am currently listening to the news, and I will let you know when something important comes up (relatively).

Holy crap! You serious??

Well of course you are, pretty sick joke otherwise. So, a holy war has started?
Great. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Yeah, the US news is totally blocking this. This is exactly the same as vietnam. Truly unbelieveable. I guess the truth will come out after the war is over, Bush will fail to get re-elected and go back to being a drunk where he belongs.

Just in case, Faile, get the boat ready for tropical island paridise! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe not with the way things are run here, I mean he has money... Even though I don't folow election much I was definately against him... If I had voted maybe he would of lost <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />.

Really? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for that news, keep it coming if you have the time to do so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I guess that depends on how gullable the average american is and..... oh crap! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, he'll probably serve 3 terms, after which he'll proclaim himself grand emperor of the universe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

thats if the war is even over by the elections. i heard the green party (which i associate myself with) isn't even putting out a presedential candidate this time. either a) they don't want to lose their funding, or 2) they're too afraid bush will get re-elected so they don't want to "steal" any democratic votes. this will truly be an election of the lesser of two evils.

meet me in california, i'll have a boat stocked and we'll aim for hawaii first. they still have one or two uninhabited islands. i think they used to put the lepers on one.

Definately! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> I've got to get a solar-powered laptop though.

sweet! we can keep in touch with everyone here. if we can get on the internet on a deserted island, of course. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

That problem solves itself.
With you two there it isn't a deserted island anymore...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

If there's anyone left to keep in touch with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well...becouse of all the toxic, biochemical and nuclear weapons the human race might be extinct...
But maybe mutated insects would answer your call...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Or 2-headed fish.... Should be interesting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

Guys [and gels] I am relaying the new news around, and it's not pretty... I don't know exact times, but today the "allies" bombed the market in Bagdad during the holy prayer hours... 51 people dead. Sadam is sending out the Fendakin. The first hijacking happened tonight, on an airplane of the turkish airlines going from Constantinopole to Ankara, with 195 people in it, and they say although unofficially yet that it's heading here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" /> to Athens for fuel and then it will go to Germany. I don't know the complications of this. That's all for today, I will let you know about anything new.

Highjacker has apparently personal motives (19-20 yrs old), his mother and sisters/brothers are held somewhere hostage = translation from Greek TV/Turk. TV. Not verified or confirmed. He gave up afterwards.
Kiya

sigh.... i don't think a smilie (or un-smilie) exists for the way i fell about this.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

Victory of the Loud Little Handful
by Mark Twain

The loud little handful - as usual - will shout for the war. The pulpit will - warily and cautiously - object... at first. The great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say, earnestly and indignantly, "It is unjust and dishonorable, and there is no necessity for it."

Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded, but it will not last long; those others will outshout them, and presently the antiwar audiences will thin out and lose popularity.

Before long, you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speech strangled by hordes of furious men...

Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.

Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger" (1910)

Wilfred Owen, 1893-1918.

Dulce et Decorum est


Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! -- An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. --
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, --
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

"It is good to die for your country".......

Post deleted by Barta

WTF are u doing posting here, being new, and saying, 'yes, I am here!"???? welcome to the forum, but why?

Sorry it's a mistake !!!

okay, I was just wondering, and welcome to the forum. its okay. I just thought it was strange.

Thanks i don't do it again

welcome to the forum barta, i hope you like it here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

Hello JVB,
Yes i like this forum, it's very huge and i don't understand everything.
I hope Riftrunner is going out soon.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/riftrunner.gif" alt="" /> comes out in Q4 of this year. we all wish it were sooner. and yes, this forum is huge, like 2 1/2 different languages and a whole bunch of other things.

Hello
I used to send posts on the french forum of Divine Divinity, since 5 months.
I came here to have some informations about Riftrunner.
I think that this forum is very interesting, but it's not easy to talk in english !

nice pic Barta! yes, I have trouble speaking in French, I can speak it, but just very crudely, same with German and Italian.

Well, Lews, but you can spam fluently <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

aye Kiya, but I wish I didn't, I am tryin' to stop. I hope someone knows that.

Do you wanna take lessons...? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

yes. and in case u think I'm joking I'm not, I need lessons, I just get people mad at me, now I can't due the Define Infinity thing, becuase of some Spam I did when I was all drugged up from 30 or so shots!!! NEED HELP! WILL TAKE LESSON!

hello what is more beautiful?

Ok Lews... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> - What would you reply when I type the following:

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />

well, my natural instink would be to but becuase I'm workin on this, I'd say 'whats so funny ,thats just useless spam, so stop (i should know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />)'

then if someone said this to you...
it being your first visit to the forum, how would you feel?

oh, uh, good point. I guess I wouldn't feel to good about it that someone said that to me, and I'd feel a grudge against them for a bit.

man all you gotta do is think of that every time you make a reply

....and it'll all be good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Not even close <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

You just don't reply, Lews!



On to lesson two?
If you have nothing to say: don't post! If you can't answer a question: don't post! If you just wanna have fun and talk nonsense: don't post! And if you still need to share nonsense, if you really can't help it, if the urge is really really huuuuuuge... Don't post!

Can you do that?

I'll try.

good, let's hope so.

posts like 'ok' and 'i agree' don't add stuff, sometimes they occur, but try to clarify your reasons for agreeing with sth

not entirely true..
he can have chatting about nothing etc.

BUT DO THIS VIA PM.

On lesson 3
When you have something to say in class raise your right hand, and wait till he says it's your turn, before you answer Mr. Kej.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Don't listen to Seth, that rule only applies to himself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

*right hand up in the sky...air... something...*

Sure boss, yes boss, whatever you say boss...

*behind back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />*

I agree

Heyyy Soul <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
How you been?
I guess you're almost done by now, eh?
Sorry about the weather. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />
Hope everything is going well.

*gg* You're evil Soul and so dry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . Just the elf like we know him and like we want him .

hey Polgara, don't like your new Ava, the old one was better

Tell that to her "yaoi tik" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

I miss Polgara too already *snif* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

hey seth, you are back 2.
where have you been? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Who says I'm back.
... still finding myself... or trying too.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi jvb.

@Polgara, I have to agree with Viper. You getting naughty with that new avator? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

you mean you still havent found yourself? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Well, there isn't much to look for... is there?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/silly.gif" alt="" />

-besides, nobody else could find me after Dragon left.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

i dont know, but i hope there is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
But why had you left?

That was obvious... no?
Ask Viper, faile,...
everyone else seems to know anyway.

i may have known, but i dont remember.
you could pm me.. please?

Pol was nice but having day in day out the same ava gets boring and besides that those both (pointing on her ava) are so cute *snif* . What can be more beautiful then two people loving each other (getting on topic again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) .

Greetings
Pol who's in her romantic phase again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />