steam summer sells: DOS for 31,99 while the game is not even released.

I bought the early access 39,99.

Fuck you larian, as much as you just fucked me.

WTF.

How does this even make any sense? Is this common - for games on Steam to go on sale before release?

I'm not too savvy with Steam stuff. Does anyone know if this would be Larian's decision or simply Steam taking a hit on their own cut of the profits to make some short-term cash? Would Larian be contractually obligated to feature in Steam sales in order to use their service? Why would Larian potentially undercut their imminent release sales revenue?

Yeah, I get that people who find bargains on sale are simply lucky, good on them... but a sale on a kickstartered, early-accessed game just before release...

Can anyone justify this?

Someone was complaining about this on the Steam forum, and I'll say the same thing here I said there: It's not like people got stuck with a pre-order price for a game they haven't played yet. Anyone who purchased this game during early access has had an opportunity to play it since then. I purchased mine back during the Christmas holidays and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that wasn't worth whatever would have been saved with a 20% discount today.

In other words, given the choice of 20% discount versus being able to play Divinity : OS for the past 6 months, I would easily choose the latter (and I did).

As for anyone who purchased the game in the last week or so, purchasing any game on Steam that close to the Summer/Winter sale periods before seeing what shows up is generally not a good idea.

well bargain should have been expected on steam... and if I remember right this was already mentionned before

So perhaps all early access games are worth less upon actual release? ;-)

You'd probably have to pay ME to alpha/beta test a game I so look forward to playing unspoilt at release (or as is usually the case sometime after release after a few patches).

Personally, I don't really mind much what Larian charges for the game, despite having kickstarted it for as lot more than $30. I would like them to make as much profit as ethically possible, so they can reinvest that money into making more and hopefully even better RPGs in the style I like. And they would obviously be in the best position to judge how to to that. However, *puts on armchair developer hat and adopts pompous tone* putting the game on sale now (just before release) is not something that I would personally do, despite a potential increase in profit, as it seems disrespectful to the contribution of backers and early accessers. I can certainly see how CromCrom, and no doubt others, could feel upset, even if it doesn't bother me personally.

Hmm, I'm contradicting myself here. So, is it actually disrespectful, even though I don't feel disrespected? Hmm, I need to think on this more *takes off pompous hat tone*

Cromcrom, shame on you for this.

Everybody knows that games will be cheaper after some time, why didn't you wait then?
You had your advantage to play the game earlier. Impatience has it's price. ;-)

On Steam this action is no new thing. Whatch Dogs or Thief had also a discount before release.

Its standard practice for early access games to go on sale before final release.

Endre, this looks different. Although this is indeed "before release", this is clearly a summer sale.

ANd it's not "games will be cheaper after some time,", the game has not even been released yet.

Bargains ARE expected on steam, this is not the issue.

I can't wait to hear:
"hey, people, we really wanted to thank you all beta testers for the incredible efforts you put into testing the game to try to make better this pile of unbalanced bugs. So here you go, we make a 20% bargain for steam summer sales, so that all of you beta early access can feel it deep in your ass. I really hope you will enjoy it :-)"

Yes, but what exactly is the issue? I'm trying to figure this out. The best I can come up with is a vague notion of disrespecting and devaluing the contribution of backers but I haven't been able to put that into a logical argument. I can't actually say why it is disrespectful or devaluing. Could you enlighten me?

Oh give me a break! Frigging children these days and their tantrums.

You paid for early access. There was no guarantee the price would not be put on sale. There was not agreement as such.

Take some damn responsibility for making a decision to purchase it.

Frigging entitlement generation. Sheesh!

Re: the edit.

To put it another way - How is a bargain now for some lucky others doing anything to your ass CromCrom?

(sigh) It's interesting how, time and time again, these discussions tend to remain largely civil right up until certain people in this community make their way into them.

And, yes, that's aimed at you, Tanist.

Before the Steam Summer Sale Started, on the Steam forums, people were worried that if D:OS were to be released on the last day, sales would suffer because people had already spent their money during the sale.

That's a reasonable point, and I think this day 1 sale is a very clever solution. You get the attention of the sale start, when people have peak money, and then it goes back down afterwards.

As to the argument "I paid for early access..." well yes, but Early Access is pretty much over - the game is coming out in 11 days.

The fact I paid for EA is not the issue. The issue is I paid 39.99 for a game that receives a bargain even before it is released. So what is the real value of this game ? Did I really have to pay MORE for the "privilege" of beta testing the game. You know, how really honest devs do, making the game quite cheap at first, and increasing the value as more features and polish gets added...
This is the contrary. You pay a strong price for testing an unpolished and unfinished beta, and pay cheaper for an almost done game ? Many people here should actually have been paid for the incredible efforts they put into testing the game (not talking about me here), not the contrary.

Obviously, some of us are more ass sensitive than others...

Games going on sale before they release is a pretty common problem, to the point where it's hard to label it as a problem anymore. Wildstar, Elder Scrolls Online, all recent examples. And this is very common with Steam games, where they're usually trying to entice people with pre-order discounts so they don't buy elsewhere.

Some games used to go on sale a month or two after release and people still complained about feeling cheated. It seems like there is no winning when it comes to buyers remorse.

Opinions on all that aside, the fact is you personally have had the game now for months, right? Do you feel like you got $8 worth of fun out of it? Given the opportunity of having the game all this time or waiting until now with the sale price to play it for the first time, would you have really chosen the latter? I wouldn't have, but that's just me.

Well to be honest, I paid three times as much during the Kickstarter campaign and I do not regret a single cent! I have been part of a wonderful community here, I felt like Larians take us seriously and that our opinions and wishes reallt count! And I have already played the hell out of the game (60+ hours) and I have yet to discover much more when the game releases!

Now, I can vaguely understand some people being a little bit disappointed that the game is now marginally cheaper - but come on guys! It is how much off? Just 9 $? I mean, what can you buy for 9 $? The last time I was in the US, it was something like two coffees to go or one frozen yoghurt? People who bought D:OS for full price apparently can pay that price without being left starving - otherwise they would have waited until some kind of a sale anyway. So, don't be greedy and do not begrudge some less fortunate people this 20% discount!

"Obviously, some of us are more ass sensitive than others..."

Indeed, but should we be clenching or not? [insert joke about tight-asses here] I'm still unsure what the argument against this sale is.

Why does purchasing the game during early access entitle us to expect that the game will not sell for less than we paid for it until post release? And at what point would a price reduction become appropriate - and why would it become appropriate?

If part of the argument is that supporting a company & development of its game by purchasing early access should be respected, then why would we no longer want to support the company but actively detract from their profit-making capacity and potential to make more of the product we desire?

They basically got a bunch of people to look for bugs, then decided to screw those people over by making the game cheaper for people who did not actually help them out.

Games these days use early access players and such to hunt for bugs to improve games before release to save money/time on finding the bugs themselves, because the more bugs does not mean a worse game, it means less income as people don't recommend to others/reviews are lower.

Considering the saved game wipes and limited access to the game from early purchase really offers no benefit to people who actually help improve the game, so for people who fail to realise this, commenting "well sucks to be you" is about as helpful as a blind crossing guard.

And offering a sale on something before it is released means it's not on sale, it just means a bunch of people paid too much to help the game company out. I guess Larian studios don't like people being repeat customers.

O my god , alas, no. Those must have been the most frustrating 8 bucks (euros, actually) I ever spent, navigating between false promises (cycles, editor in december almost 100% sure, "Spring is coming"...), shallow features (spells = skills, drag and drop crafting, crates opening in lieu of proper gathering, failure or success system), bugs (countless), unbalances (game is unbalancable), to the point I can't go past Arhu anymore, because just the prospect of "navigating" through Cyseal bores the shit out of me.


I wouldn't even have bought the game, but that's just me.

I would feel cheated for a bargain one or two months after release. So the frustration when the game is not even released yet ^^.

What I say is being a dedicated fanboy = having your ass fucked.

Next time I will do like others smarter than me do. Buy the game when it's worth 5 euros. I am sure devs really love these people, because if they sold ONLY 5 euros games, they would be dead by now. I will love to make this gift to Larian, anyways.

This is a good question. I think that the real value of the game is for all intents and purposes unrelated to the monetary value assigned to it, which is much more determined by the market and what Larian can get for it.

Rather, the real value of the game is relative to each individual.

Larian may have been mindful of backers' sensibilities by not discounting the game below the $25 that backers could get it for, I dunno (maybe they simply considered that a 20% discount was optimal for sales or maybe that was partly dictated by Steam). But it would seem they feel early access 'backers' are fair game.

Perhaps they have reasoned that anyone willing to purchase early access finds inherent value in that access, and that this value is now no longer there as the game is being released. In other words, why would anyone buy early access if they didn't think it (early access to the game) had additional value beyond that at release? If it didn't have additional value to you you'd just wait until release or a sale, unless you wanted to specifically support the company and development of the game? And if you wanted to support the company and development of the game, why would you begrudge them discounting the game for a few bucks to maximise their means to do so, for this game and future ones?

You could ask that every time it goes on sale, or when the price drops after a few years, or when it gets bundled a few years after that, or when it is given away as a pre-order bonus for Divinity 7 in a decade...



Most people who bought the Early Access version knew, or should have known, what Early Access is. They had the opportunity to significantly effect the development of the game, not just look for bugs, and make suggestions and give feedback which would be much harder for Larian to act on after release. Some people place value on this. If you do not, then do not buy Early Access games until they are released.

I've certainly paid more than $9 for games I've played less than the alpha/beta, and were less fun.

CromCrom!! wait til release! I bet you one apple pie you will be happy with the game ^_^

First post in this thread.

Civil? Your judgement (or lack there of) is quite astounding.

/boggle

Are you new to the alpha/beta process? Didn't they make it clear when you bought the game that it was "early access" which meant the game would be unfinished, buggy, crashing, etc... ?

Maybe... since you dislike alpha/beta games, you should have held on to your money and then... when it went on sale today, you could have got it cheaper?

Seems like you wanted to play the game early. Seems like you agreed that 39.99 was worth it.

It seems... that you are now trying to renegotiate after the fact.

It seems to me... you are being dishonest.

And what is the better way to respond to his frustration? Insulting him? Or a more calm and reasoned approach? My judgement says it's the latter, and I wish yours had done the same. He is clearly upset. I'm not sure what your excuse was. Is this how you intend to respond to everyone with a complaint? Because I suspect there are going to be more once launch happens (it's inevitable).

He is clearly acting like an emotional idiot. I could give a crap how he "feels" when he acts like a little brat. If he wants to be treated with respect, he can act in a manner that deserves it.

Now stop derailing the thread with your narcissistic need to make this all about you.

That's a two-way street, no? If you come at him acting like you've blown a gasket, how should people respond to you?

Anyway, take the advice or leave it. Up to you.

?

Woah its $8, your life is ruined because its $8. Go cry a river.

So much drama over such insignificant things. As pointed by others you got to play long before release and had the chance to have an effect on development and it was only $8......seriously, if you really feel the need to act like this over $8 I think you have far bigger problems in your life than video-games that need to be solved before you buy another game.

Doesn't understand the point of Kickstarter.

This kind of frustration, seems to just be part of the whole BETA is part of purchase transition. 15 years ago to be part of BETA's, ALPHAS...was not a normal thing by any means. You were selected by a small minority to have the chance to be a part of them.

Now days the devs(in most gaming circles) have opened the walls to all..the industry as a whole has taken to the mass beta idea, this has all evolved into the Kickstarter era. As this is a new venture in economic/social terms there will be hiccups as the system is created right before our very eyes.

I think this similar to the music industry...we now have groups(bands) of people changing the way music is produced/managed..in smaller circles. These are like your indie titles in gaming terms. All the while the big industry keeps on pumping out pop music, akin to Your EA's and such, pumping out mediocre games/ or over the top games at 60$+.

So where does this leave us, well to be frank..we must be careful how we spend our hard earned cash. We read into things and decide whether or not to take a chance with a company, trusting in them to deliver. I have been burnt on Kickstarters, this not being one of those I'll happily say.

I think it's the PAYING to be a Beta tester that's the real difference. Honestly I still haven't got my head around that one.

Yep, there was a time that if you had beta experience with multiple releases of games and other software that you could even put it on your resume as an experienced QA position. Though, back then alpha/beta testing was more than just playing a game. You filled out numerous bug reports, applied various play scenarios requested by the developers and consistently communicated with them as an employee would.

These days, Alpha/Beta tester simply means random person who plays the game for an early peek. There is no requirement for report filing or any interaction with the developers because most of the data is being collected passively through their client logging applications.

Right like I stated, these are the growing pains of trying a new system. For me it's not paying for BETA, it's paying to get into the game earlier than the rest of the public. In some cases if you try to you can have a lot of involvement, even in just theory crafting about a games future. For some that alone is why they get involved into Early access/BETAS what-have-you.

The 'paying for BETA' is just the entrance fee, but I don't think you are actually 'paying for BETA' as much as you are just paying 'early' for a product, the BETA is just now a part of things. The problem here is that you pay full price for an un-finished product...so when expectations are made by the consumer, consumers with low patience, or that have been burnt before will alarm fire-bells over every little thing.

You're not. You're paying for the full game, but can play the beta now. It's not like you're paying to beta test and then paying again for the full game. There's no price difference between the beta and full version, so you aren't penalized for waiting for the full version.

Fucked out of $8. Life is cruel.

lol

The OP is a literal baby.

you have to be some self righteous, entitled prick to get angry over this. I bought a game on ps3, a week later it was free on PSN. did I bitch and moan...yes for like a second before I shrugged and continued playing the game. why. because when I bought the game I was prepared to pay that price. if $8 is enough to make you bitch and moan. you probably shouldn't be buying games. you sound like the kind of person that would pay $5 for a game. get lets say 5 hours of content and then bitch and moan that the game didn't have enough for the price you paid.

Something else to consider, Cromcrom, is that this Steam Summer Sale discount was always going to happen. But because the launch was delayed repeatedly, and by many months, it just happens to be occurring right when the launch is finally happening.

If Divinity : OS had hit its original release date towards the beginning of the year and then went on sale ~6 months later in late June, would this discussion even be taking place? If anything this sale price would be quite normal.

Sure, with the way things turned out the timing is odd and even unfortunate, but the launch delays were unfortunate as well, and the one date that wasn't going to change in all of this was Steam's Summer Sale. I suspect the developers also wish there had been several months between it and their launch, but this is just how the timing worked out.

Again for those who read, I don't care about 8 euros, or the summer sale, or kickstarter, or whatever.
What upsets me is that Larian didn't have the decency to wait a little bit after the release to propose a discount. They discounted BEFORE the release.
I know being gay is kindof trendy those days, and people should really rejoice when they get fucked. I guess I am too old fashioned, because I don't like it. Calling me baby or prick or whatever won't change anything, good sweet boys...

This is rather good food for thought Crom, we can all feel crapped about things at times, but it is just a game/8euros. Plenty of crappy things happening in the world much more worth your passion.

I still haven't heard an argument as to WHY the sale constitutes a lack of decency, nor have you addressed any of my questions or counterarguments Cromcrom.

You can insist on your point of view and continue being senselessly rude all you like, but unless you can explain why it is we should feel outraged at this sale you are unlikely to do any good.

Help me out, can you finish the following sentence? It is unjust for Larian to put Original Sin on sale now because...

Don't just make unjustified value judgements like 'because it is unfair' or 'lacks decency'. Explain WHY it is unfair or lacking in decency. We may still disagree but at least others may then sympathise and understand your point of view, because right now it looks like it's based upon nothing but emotion.

Re read my posts, you will find your answer. Unless you don't want to understand.
As for sympathy, or understanding my point of view, well, I don't really really care, as I am talking about morality, an old fashioned value thats not really worth anything in this lying Larian world. All about business and making money, are we not ?
And tell me, what is wrong with emotions anyways ?

here is another thing you can bother your head about for about 1day 17hours 44min (as of the time of me writing this): https://www.g2a.com/weeklysale

get over it. the value of gaming software deteriorates over time faster than you can say "i love Larian for all its coolness" even if a respective software has not even been released yet.

btw: i dont think Larian initiated that weekly sale price at g2a.

ah Cromcrom, logn time no troll ^^



you'd gotta be joking !! Larian a business oriented company?! I suggest you have a look at Swen's blog

While I think businesses tend to make decisions they NEED to make when they NEED to make them.. I'll finish that sentence for you...


It is unjust for Larian to put Original Sin on sale now because... I paid the full price and have not even seen the full game.

C'mon now.. you have to feel a little bit like a sucker for paying more than you needed to to have the full game on Day 1 of availability.

I want games like this to be made again. So I was happy to plunk down the money to help make that happen. But you have to realize that not everyone will feel that way. You have to know it is REASONABLE for them to feel that way.

I had re-read all your posts immediately before my last post. Sorry, I still don't see any reasons given to support your claim that it's unfair. Nor any response to the counterargument that early access itself has value beyond the base price of the game.

Of course I want to understand, otherwise why would I be asking you to explain your argument?



Nothing necessarily. I'm a big believer in the informative power of emotions. Emotions are a window into the soul (so to speak) and are a great guide in life. However, I also believe that an argument must be founded in reason. If I can't articulate my emotional response to something then I consider that response suspect. Initially I shared your view that the sale felt a bit off, yet thinking about it I couldn't come up with a good reason why and have since concluded that it's actually a good thing.

I now you missed me, so I made a little ranting comeback, just like you like them ;-)
But I am genuinely "mad" anyways...

Like ? Giving money to Larian so they can keep piling bugs ?

I didn't enjoy the EA. I still don't enjoy the game, which is tremendously frustrating for me. I bought the game based on lies (cycles, "next ultima", henchmen, editor...). So I feel cheated, even more since usually, it is common on Steam to see sales some times AFTER the game is released, so that the stupid asses like myself that pay the game full price from day one can enjoy it sooner than some that will not care as much about the game, and pay much less for a much more finished product. I know the rules, but by bargaining the game BEFORE release, Larian broke the common rules. And if you play with someone that breaks the rules, thay you can feel cheated, and feel it is unfair, which I do. Some of us have stronger sense of justice than others, get over it.

How does that follow? You paid full price and will receive the full game. Additionally you received early access to the game, which I assume you consider was worth purchasing. Otherwise why did you? Anyone previously purchasing the game did actually get early access to the game, which has a value that people purchasing now won't be getting. You'd probably be kicking yourself if you bought it for full price the day before it went on sale, but why would you be buying Early Access at that time anyway?

Buy Early Access at full price = Get early access and eventually full game.

Buy game now on sale = Almost no early access and eventually full game.

See?



I think it is reasonable to FEEL like it is unfair, sales by nature kinda are hey. However I don't think that it actually is unfair in this case, as Early Access purchasers did get something of additional value for that $8.

I believe that saying fuck you to Larian is unfair and ridiculous.

Err, like early access to the game? Are you being intentionally facetious?

Cromcrom, it sounds like your actual beef is not with the sale but with the product. I can appreciate and respect that view. However that is a separate and different argument to make.

Perhaps if you explained these rules to me I might develop a greater sense of justice. I take ethics and justice very seriously, so would be indebted to you if you could explain my immorality here.

You are not being immoral. Larian is.
I really wish I could be like you, keep smiling while being fucked, but again, I can't.
However, it is a feeling, a sense. You have it or not, there is nothing to explain.
NVM.

It is also pretty common before release. Lots of SEA title have gone on sale; some have even been in very cheap bundles before release.



Ok, in the name of justice, how long after release should Larian have waited before putting the game on sale? Let's call that time X.
If someone buys the game on the release day, how long after that should Larian wait before puyting it on sale? Let's call that time Y. Presumablly Y is less than or equal to X.
Now to be fair to the person who buys the game on day Y-1, how long should Larian wait before putting the game on sale?


To follow up on Gyson excellent point, do you care if Larian committed to the sale before the release was delayed? Should your sense of fairness trump signed contracts (if that is the case)?


Given the huge increase in number of player with the sale, do you think the game would have done just as well if it didn't get any exposure until the summer sale was over and most people had spent their entertainment budget?

Do you not figure the game needs to do well in order for Larian to continue to support the editor, which will make it easier for you to change all the stuff you don't like about the game? Shouldn't enlightened self interest at least consider the results of the sale, and not just whether you think it is fair to you personally, or not?

I think the 'rules' aren't clear, and that's the cause of the problem.

If you want to argue that all Steam Early Access (SEA) games should always be cheaper than at release, I would agree that this is in the best interests of the consumer (at least short term). However this in itself is not a justification for why it should be cheaper, just what benefits the consumer more. I don't think it's necessarily fair either, as surely SEA has some value to its customers beyond the base game, else why buy it? And SEA purchasers are under no obligation to provide feedback to the developers either, though it is not unreasonable to feel deserving of some recompense in the form of a discount on the game if they do. So what are the expectations of SEA customers?

It seems the real issue here is transparency of the cost structure for the game during development to release.

I would argue that developers should be able to set any price point they wish (according to what they feel their game is worth and what the market will allow them to get), but must make clear if (and how) the price will vary over the course of the early access period and what the final cost of the game will be at release. Further, customers should be made aware that the game may go on sale prior to release. So consumers would then have the information available to make an informed decision regarding their purchase and set their expectations accordingly.

One or two month after release feels pretty good. NOT ten days BEFORE.

No signed contracts indeed. So many lies they would be bankrupt now.



Like I should care ? As much as they care about there early supporters, that is, really not much.

What editor ? The one that is announced on EA since the beginning, that is mostly why I bought EA, that was "almost certainly" due in december 2013, and is still not there ? That rubbish will probably be so bugged, just like the rest of the game, that modders will never know if it's a "feature" or a "bug". Gimme a break. Right now, and until I use it, the editor is just another Larian lie.

What I see is that, again by cheating, Larian will keep stealing money to keep removing promises. What is the next fucked deal and broken promise ? AI ?
Will they hope to cheat the game reviewers by having fast reviews on cyseal only, and leave the rest of the buggy game for the players to enjoy ? Sounds leggit to me, in a good Larian way. Nonetheless, I pray for some honest reviews to say that the only thing that saves this game is the coop and the chat, and the F5 key, (hoping it won't be corrupt whenever the game crashes).

Real honesty would have been to price EA like 30 box, and make the full game like 35 or 39, like some really honest Indie studios (that probably more sorely need money than Larian) do. But lol, they did the exact contrary, make EA 39, and the almost finished game 31. Lol ^^

And this sale is the only one for years to come. Of course, they just couldn't wait for the next one, and make it proper. They had to grab money, couldn't help it...

But really, thank you Larian, a lot of great lessons learned. Never trust game devs, never support a game with EA or backing, always wait for deals to buy games the cheapest possible (latest lesson). Especially from Larian.

Thanks folks


Nothing to add. To the point. Clarity and honesty. I second that, really.

The fundamental issue here is that Cromcrom believes his purchase, by virtue of being a per-release "Early Access" buy, included an implicit agreement that there would be no lower price before release. Assuming terms of sale that are not specifically stated is foolish.

Really it's a good life lesson to learn at the eight dollar level. It could be much worse. "I assumed the property I bought went all the way back to the tree line." "I assumed the car was running and in good shape when I wrote the check" "I assumed you picked them up" and so on.

You're entitled to a copy of the game. If you wanted a price guarantee you should have looked for on offer with that bullet point.

I tell people all the time: "do not pre-order games until a few days before release". Why? For this very reason right here. Despite what someone said earlier in the thread, games often do go on sale before release(or day of).

Amazon, BestBuy, Fry's, NewEgg, GoG, Steam...you name it. For years and years and years I've been waiting til the week of launch day to pre-order. It's either cheaper or you now have numerous options for a pre-order bonus rather than just the one when it was ordered months earlier.

Now that I've typed this and you've read it, you cannot say you weren't warned about this for future games.

Stop pre-ordering months in advance, problem solved.

^bargeral

True, though to be fair Cromcrom is looking for pricing to be fair, not just how to protect himself from unfair pricing.









*Edit response to bargeral's post

shug.

Caveat emptor. You get the deal you get. It has no bearing on deals others get.

Anecdote ahead: My roommate bought a new car. It was nice and I was young so I went and bought one too. I had no business buying a car since I was broke. So when the salesman pulled the "I need to talk to the manager" trick I kept coming back with, it's close, but I can't quite swing that. The net net was my car cost me forty bucks a month less than my roommates: 2,400 on a five year loan. Same car, same model, same dealer etc. Just a cheaper car because, through no particular intent on my part, I had negotiated a better deal. My roommate was not entitled to renegotiate.

You get the deal you agreed to. No more no less.

It's a sticky wicket. I agree that restricting international sales and region locking to control prices is wrong. I agree that the guy buying bubble gum standing in the same line as me should pay the same price as me. But I just don't see the moral high ground here. Cromcrom bought a product at one price, then it went on sale. Happens all the time, and there's always some old guy at the register waving yesterdays receipt and today's sales flyer at the cashier. He might get a refund, but only as a path of least resistance. And he'll walk out chest held high thinking he's won some great moral victory, but really he's just a self-entitled whiny bully.

Edit to add: the guy at the register is a "self-entitled whiny bully". Cromcrom has a point. I'm just not sure I agree. But I don't see him as a whiny bully. More just venting.

I don't know why people are still senselessly bitching about this. It doesn't make sense, and this topic doesn't belong at the top of the forums. CromCrom is just being a whiny ass bitch who saw that her dog-food had red dye #43 in it. Just give it up, it doesn't matter. What does matter is the game getting finished, released, and it arriving at people's doorsteps. That's what I care about the most, is actually getting my shit. I'm... oh wait, I keep forgetting that I'm not 18 anymore. I'm 21, I paid $600 for this game. It sucked in the beginning, the alpha was terrible. I thought the game was going to suck. It didn't, during the beta the game just getting better and better. I'm so happy that I was able to see that transition because it was just... joyous for me. I could care less that this game went for sale 'before' release. So what? Isn't that what 'pre-orders' at gamestop do? $5 off your $60 game if you 'pre-order' now. Nobody has a damn issue with that.

Now lets get into the meat of this whole 'paying for beta' thing. Because, that's totally not what it is, especially since you don't HAVE ANY OBLIGATION TO REPORT ANYTHING WHEN YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME. How the fuck are you paying to be a beta tester if you don't actually have to do anything in the beta? Makes no sense when people say shit like that.

I'm still waiting for the editor, I wanted it since alpha, but I still haven't gotten it. Am I disappointed? No. That's because I can learn to keep my pants on and sit the fuck down and wait and not complain about some shit pointless that doesn't even matter.

I spent $206 backing this game. I have been incredible pleased with the KS Updates, Mac & PC Versions, the drastic changes from Alpha to now.

I have zero regrets and await the full release so my save games are viable.

I have heavily backed other projects and been horrible let down. D:OS and the Name of the Wind Playing Cards are the only products I have been happy with, both in terms of communication during development, and of the product.

I no longer back things on KS after being burned too often, but I cannot wait for June 30th. Sure some of the systems in the game could be even more in-depth and complex, but in this day and age name a single other game released in 10 years with anywhere near the amount of depth that this game has - I for one cannot!