Larian Studios

Poll on what combat system you want in BG3

Posted By: Brent2410

Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 04:04 PM

https://strawpoll.com/s4561xkh
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 04:32 PM

Isn't any poll here going to be automatically heavily biased since this forum is overwhelmingly home to D:OS1/2 fans?
Posted By: Ellionious

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 08:07 PM

Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.
Posted By: Slagathor

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 08:21 PM

I just like the option to pause the game when I need to re-direct orders (difficult battle).
But I also love it when I can just "let go" and watch my party wreak havoc on their own (easy battle).

"Look at Minsc go...awesome! Yes cleave that ogre in half.
Oh great buffs Jaheira. Edwin magic artillery gooooooo ! fricking rules!
Viconia, perfectly timed heal...bravo!"

etc.

The sitting back and relaxing and enjoying the show is very amusing to me.
The tactical difficult bossfights where you have to pause and think and plan are great too.
I simply love both.

BG2 was perfect in that way imho.
With improved AI this shouldn't be a problem.

p.s.: I also love setting up ai-formations, tactics, ways to react, etc

p.s 2.: hi everyone !
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 09:02 PM

Yeah I agree. That character actions are strictly sequential in TB just really grates on me. I love being able to have two (or more) of the characters move and/or attack simultaneously. I especially love this in boss battles where you can very quickly clear up the boss's minions and then everyone in your party simultaneously swarms/blasts the boss. Very satisfying. smile
Posted By: Kroked

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 07/06/19 10:29 PM

BG2 was not real time. It was turn based on a clock, and you could set it to pause on every turn. So I can't really check either box.

I would prefer BG2 combat, as opposed to real time. D&D is a game of dice and statistics. When you turn it into a twitch based hack and slash, its not D&D anymore.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 08/06/19 12:44 AM

It's Psudo Turn based, but if you didn't know about the auto pause action in the settings then it played like real time. Even then it felt like real time in 6 second bursts. Personally I prefer the Divinity model, but with an action, bonus action, and movement all being separate. That's how tabletop plays, and I want something as close to actual D&D as possible. It's highly likely we'll get a creation mode, so I look at BG3 and see a nice opportunity to play tabletop with friends who's schedule or location doesn't allow them to meet up in person for an actual session.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 08/06/19 02:45 AM

Well I really hate the D:OS games' TB system so I hope it won't be anything even remotely like that.

Also, this is supposed to be a cRPG, not a tabletop simulator. There already exists a tabletop simulator for D&D.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 08/06/19 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kroked
BG2 was not real time. It was turn based on a clock, and you could set it to pause on every turn. So I can't really check either box.

I would prefer BG2 combat, as opposed to real time. D&D is a game of dice and statistics. When you turn it into a twitch based hack and slash, its not D&D anymore.


Yes the BG games were not real time. They were real time with pause. I don't think anyone is looking for this game to be RT. It's about expecting it to be RTwP, just like the first two games in the series.
Posted By: cyseal

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 08/06/19 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


But, this poll doesn't mean anything. Not enough votes.
Only way to get meaningful result is to get all Steam players to vote.
The best is developers make the gameplay what they've imagined.
Posted By: Delicieuxz

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


Even still, the support for TB combat is going to be over-inflated because Larian forums are filled with fans of their D:OS games, which are TB games.

Also, since D:OS2 is a recent excellent title, many Larian fans (many of whom might not have played BG) are going to want TB just because it's all they know and they don't want to try something different. At least on the Steam BG3 forums, there is a degree of D:OS2 fans who clearly are not happy that Larian are making anything other than D:OS3, and since they aren't getting D:OS3 right away but are getting BG3, they would like to co-opt BG3 and have it be a reskinned D:OS2. I think those elements of the audience need to be resisted because they are not looking for Baldur's Gate 3 to be Baldur's Gate 3.

Just like it would be selfish and arrogant for Baldur's Gate fans to start demanding D:OS3 use RTwP combat, spiting the fans of the D:OS series, it is also the same when D:OS fans (which I am one of) do the same thing when it comes to BG3. The whole point of announcing Baldur's Gate 3 is to tap into what Baldur's Gate is and means to people, its own legacy and not some other series', and I think it's hard to see how swapping RTwP for TB wouldn't be a bit of a betrayal (and I've already seen that there are those who would call it more than a bit of one). Baldur's Gate 3 is a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity, or even rarer, and so it would be tragic if it was squandered for the sake of fanservice to a different series.


I love D:OS and its combat system is fun in those games. But, RTwP is also a ton of fun. Both these systems have their places. Baldur's Gate is an iconic RTwP game, and without RTwP it wouldn't really be Baldur's Gate anymore, and with TB combat it would be a semi-clone of D:OS.

Plus, there's Wasteland 3 coming up, and that will have TB combat. So, people who are somehow needing a TB combat game will have their big-title TB combat fix in the same timeframe as when BG3 will release.

Also, Larian will undoubtedly make D:OS3 at some point, maybe after BG3. It would be good for them to expand their skills and do something fresh between D:OS games, which will also keep the TB combat fresher for when they make D:OS3. Making BG3 RTwP will mean that there is larger appeal for another TB game when D:OS3 releases.


The fans who've been loving Baldur's Gate since its release, who've kept its popularity alive, and those who have been waiting for a Baldur's Gate sequel for 2 decades don't deserve a D:OS clone and reskin. I imagine there would be justified anger if Baldur's Gate 3 was not faithful to Baldur's Gate - and RTwP combat is a key aspect of Baldur's Gate's identity.

I'm sure that Larian would like to stretch their creative legs and enjoy doing something different than what they did for their previous two games, themselves, and that they likely would love to show how good they can do RTwP just as they have shown how well they can do TB. Larian have demonstrated their studio to have a high level of skill and creativity, bristling with ideas, and I fully believe there is room in Larian's current and developing expertise to be more than a one-trick pony. Baldur's Gate 3 is a big chance for them to show it once again.


Looking at all aspects, and there are many more than I've mentioned in this post, it would be stupefying to me if Baldur's Gate 3 didn't have RTwP combat. BG has a rich identity, and that RTwP is iconic to it, and I think that anything else wouldn't be the Baldur's Gate that makes the news of BG3 amazing and wonderful for BG's fans. It would be another game - maybe a very good game, but another game all the same, and probably one that should be billed as its own thing and not presented as Baldur's Gate 3.


Larian is a fantastic developer, and D:OS is a fantastic series. I'm sure and certainly hope it will continue to be one when D:OS3 is made. Right now, though Larian are making Baldur's Gate, not D:OS, and I'm looking very forward to a new Baldur's Gate game, and then a new D:OS game afterwards, and not another D:OS game masquerading as a Baldur's Gate game. Let each have their place, and not over-indulge one at the expense of the other.
Posted By: Seelenernter

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Delicieuxz
Originally Posted by Ellionious
Doesn't look that way. RT is winning.


... I'm looking very forward to a new Baldur's Gate game, and then a new D:OS game afterwards, and not another D:OS game masquerading as a Baldur's Gate game. Let each have their place, and not over-indulge one at the expense of the other.


This, exactly this!

Problem is the TB crowd became as toxic as the self-proclaimed pro-powergaming RT crowd over the years. Tolerance (and even the awareness about it to begin with) is something rare these days.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 01:53 PM

I completely agree with the last two posters. @Delicieuxz's post is especially welcome to me given that it is from a D:OS fan. As a passionate fan of the first two BG games, I too hope fans of the D:OS games won't demand that Larian turn BG3 into a D:OS clone.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 07:48 PM

I want turn based. I'm not looking for a "D:OS clone" - I just want something that is true to how D&D is actually played. Calling any turn based fantasy game a D:OS clone is as bad as calling every ARPG a Diablo clone or every FPS a Goldeneye clone. There's room for more than one game in each genre. XCOM and D:OS are the only games that really come to mind when I think of turn based top downs - and I can't think of a single turn based top down that uses D&D core rules. As a fan of all three, D:OS, BG, and D&D, I want something that comes as close to actual D&D as possible, because it's never been done before. If I want RTwP, I have an absolute metric ton of wonderful games to choose from. If I want actual D&D in a video game, I have no good options. Sequels aren't limited to the genre of their predecessors, they should evolve into a better game - just look at the step Risk of Rain recently took.

I'm still going to buy and play it either way, for sure - Larian already has my money. But I really just want actual D&D in a video game for the first time ever.
Posted By: Delicieuxz

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Brent2410

I'm still going to buy and play it either way, for sure - Larian already has my money. But I really just want actual D&D in a video game for the first time ever.


I think D&D done in RTwP with full D&D rounds happening in the background is actual D&D. In the same sense, having game AI isn't perfectly identical to having a human DM. The same is true for various other aspects of any D&D video game.

That said, TB-only D&D has been done in a video game before, and you can currently buy it on sale at GoG for 75% off:

The Temple of Elemental Evil

If you get it, there's a community patch that people recommend. There's a link to it in the GoG forum.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 09/06/19 08:58 PM

I'll give it a shot for $1.50. I'm not familiar with 3.5, played 2 AD&D until 5e came out. The plethora of 5 and 1 star reviews has me concerned, but it looks decent. Still doesn't scratch the itch of having a building tool to create a campaign and host a session... or even multiplayer to play with friends.
Posted By: Labeled

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 11/06/19 08:28 AM

So with the game being based on 5e, I feel like realtime will take all feeling of d&d out of it for me at least. This partially comes from having played 5e, and watched a lot of 5e content.

In combat, it is divided into rounds(6sec), in 1 round everyone takes a turn, order determined by your initiative roll.
During combat you get a MOVE action, up to your speed so depending on race or other variables 30+Ft
you also get to take an ACTION such as ATTACK, or something else such as DODGE or READY.
You also get a BONUS ACTION, this can come from Class features, spells or other abilities, they let you take an additional action.
along side that you also get a REACTION, certain special abilities, spells or situations can grant you a reaction, Attack of Opportunity for example would be a reaction.(this usually doesn't come into play until you're a higher level)

With real time, you lose a lot of nuance of the 5e rules, as a cleric you have to take more than 1 round to be able to move and cast a heal on a party member for example with real time, when the rules actually allow you to move and cast in your turn. In my experience with BG the enemy will still be attacking when I could have had the time to move and heal in a turn based environment.

Now I understand that people just want their classic BG experience, and that is fine, I'm sure they could do both with their engine, but If it is really based on 5e, it would be a shame to miss out on a lot of the combat rules. If you need to keep pausing to take advantage of the rules or to line up your magic, why not just have it turn based anyway?

I didn't play BG back in the day, I only just started playing before larians announcement. I often get frustrated wishing it was turn based like 2e it was based on. I'm only playing through with 4 characters, I can't imagine having to manage 6 characters pausing all the time when the game could have just been turn based in the first place. Now a way around this is with AI scripts, which is a weird thing to me. However it explains to me why people want RTwP, they don't actually have to control that many companions that way.
Posted By: Aver

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 11/06/19 06:12 PM

Quote
With real time, you lose a lot of nuance of the 5e rules, as a cleric you have to take more than 1 round to be able to move and cast a heal on a party member for example with real time, when the rules actually allow you to move and cast in your turn. In my experience with BG the enemy will still be attacking when I could have had the time to move and heal in a turn based environment.

Now I understand that people just want their classic BG experience, and that is fine, I'm sure they could do both with their engine, but If it is really based on 5e, it would be a shame to miss out on a lot of the combat rules. If you need to keep pausing to take advantage of the rules or to line up your magic, why not just have it turn based anyway?


You can move and cast heal in the same round. BG1 and BG2 still track turns, so within one turn you can cast one spell and until the end of the turn you won't be able to cast another one, but you can move as much as you want before end of the turn.

While some classes have interesting things to do every turn, like clerics, druids or sorcerers, there are classes that are less engaging, for example Warlock often keeps casting Eldritch Blast until his target is dead, because they have very limited amount of spells. The same with warrior, often for the most of combat he just keeps hitting his target with a sword until the target is dead. It's not fun to keep doing it over and over and over again in a video game, so I like that in BG you just order a warrior to attack an enemy and he will keep hitting it until it dies or you change that order. No need for micromanagement of each basic attack.

Also BG1 and BG2 is known for combat encounters with many opponents. Like storming Gnoll Fortress and murdering dozens of Gnolls in one battle. On top of that you have 6 companions and you can summon monsters, skeletons etc. All that leads to situation where encounters with 30+ combatants are common. If I had to wait for all 20 gnolls to do their turn and then wait for my summoned pack of dogs to finish their turn before I order my warrior to hit a gnoll with a sword and then my warlock to cast Eldrich Blast etc. and then wait again for all those freaking gnolls to do their turn again, then I would never finish BG1.

One could say that the solution is to make encounters small, so you don't have to wait for 20 gnolls/gibberlings/kobolds to finish their turn first, but I would say "OVER MY DEAD BODY!" It was great to slash your way through army of gnolls after you leveled up enough. Heroic fantasy at its best. Combat was intense, fast and yet still tactical. I have many great memories about making the last stand in some choke point against overwhelming number of enemies and I hope to make new ones in BG3.

Also enemies in BG don't scale up, so if I visit a lower level location with my experienced party, I still might encounter a pack of kobolds. In RTwP it takes to 10 seconds to clear them and continue my adventure. In turn based I would have to wait for each of them to do their turn and I would waste 5 minutes for a combat where my enemy don't even have a chance to really hit me.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 11/06/19 09:47 PM

Also, I just don't get the sense of achievement and satisfaction from killing a big bad enemy (a dragon, for example) in TB as I do in RTwP. In TB, after inflicting damage little by little over many turns across many rounds I finally inflict that last little bit of damage with one of my characters that causes the big bad enemy to fall, rather than feeling accomplishment, all I feel is a sense of relief that the stupid battle is finally over.

Furthermore, one of the most common complaints I have seen about RTwP combat is that it is too "chaotic." Yet for me, this is a complaint I just cannot understand, because for me combat SHOULD be chaotic. I want combat to be messy and confusing and chaotic, because that is what makes it real and evokes tension in me and gets my blood pumping. TB combat is far too clean and neat and orderly and "perfect." I feel like I'm just going through the motions, following a predetermined and set algorithem for exactly what I need to "optimally" do to win the battle.
Posted By: 4verse

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 09:40 AM

i took the liberty to post the poll in the steam forums.

also imo there is no definitive answer RTwP vs TB

but i am very apprehensive of larian being shit stormed by one or the other zealot group (see the steam forums already)

if possible larian should implement both systems, otherwise ...
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 10:04 AM

Definitely going with turn-based here.

Not only it's my opinion that it's an inherently superior system to rtwp and one of the very few things that stopped BG2 from approaching perfection.
I'm also far less confident in Larian's ability to deliver a good rtwp in general.

That said, neither option would be a deal breaker for me, as far as well implemented.
I'm far more concerned about how Larian will handle itemization frankly. Will they go the BG2 road (one of the best games ever made in that sense) or stick to their randomized loot system used in both the D:OS games, which was frankly garbage and the greatest flaw in the game?
Posted By: 0Muttley0

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 10:21 AM

Is there not a way to put a forum based poll in the OP as opposed to one hosted elsewhere. I have voted, but when I went later to check results, it gave me the option to vote again(I didn't). I would have concerns about how accurate it is.

For me I'll just be happy with a BG game at all. But, truth be told for me personally I struggle playing RTwP when in multiplayer. A turn based system like
Divinity: OS 1&2 is perfect for me. I think I may have read somewhere on the forums concerns in it breaking gameplay for players elsewhere. I don't see this as an issue as if you aren't in combat you don't get affected by it and carry on unimpeded.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 12:50 PM

To be honest, I don't know how to make a poll in forum. I do know that you can't vote twice in a strawpoll, though.
Posted By: ZeroFerox

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 01:29 PM

This Poll is crap. Change IP and you can vote again. All serious Surveys indicates that its a 50:50. Larian CANT win this except they implement BOTH combat systems like Pillars of Eternity 2 did with their 5.0 Update and let the user decide which one they want to use.
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 01:36 PM

Anyone willing to go and change his own IP just to cheat on this poll has some serious issues and desperately needs to find better ways to spend his time, frankly.
Posted By: aerendhil

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 03:22 PM

One of my favored D&D game is "Temple of Elemental Evil" because of the turn-based gameplay.
So I vote TB , not RTWP (and not because of D:OS , which I enjoyed only moderatly)

I always found RTWP to be quite unclear, even as a BG fan.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 03:46 PM

I don't see how someone can be a BG fan and not have liked the BG combat system. That combat system is integral to why those games were so awesome and to the way they felt and played.

The more I learn about Larian's plans for this game, the more pessimistic and disillusioned I am becoming. First they talked about cutting back on misses in combat and possibly even dropping the to-hit mechanism. Now they're talking about easier and faster leveling, and getting rid of spell slots. I feel this is going to be just another D:OS game pretending to be a D&D/BG game, complete with the very boring and superficial D:OS combat system.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 07:39 PM

I don't think this poll, or any other poll, is of much value because I'm sure Larian had already decided the game was going to be TB a long time ago. I think they are waiting on revealing this in the hope that in the meantime the RTwP fans will get hyped up and invested in the game such that when TB is revealed they will simply accept it.
Posted By: Try2Handing

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I don't think this poll, or any other poll, is of much value because I'm sure Larian had already decided the game was going to be TB a long time ago.

Basically the reason why I've been hesitating to post any sort of "suggestions" or "ideas" on here. God knows we made tons of suggestions back in the DOS2 days before DOS2DE came out, and even before that, when patches for DOS2 were still being rolled out constantly, and what happened to all those suggestions? As a hardcore BG fan who's been playing/modding the games for years, I do have my own thoughts I'd like to share, but to be honest, I'm not sure how receptive the crew at Larian are toward all the suggestions we make on here. I'm sure they *read* most, if not all, what we post, but, well. For now I'm content with lurking and reading others' posts.


Posted By: loudent

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 12/06/19 08:20 PM

Real time with pause options is really the best of most worlds since you can set auto pause at the start of a characters turn and such.

This also opens up the possibility of MP since you just disable pausing
Posted By: Delicieuxz

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 12:27 AM

Somebody is spamming the RTwP or TB poll right now with votes for TB. There was a 3:1 ratio in favour of RTwP 20 minutes ago, and now every time I refresh the poll page like 15 seconds apart there are another 2 votes for TB.

Someone is using IP spoofing to manipulate the poll in favour of TB. That's sad.
Posted By: Delicieuxz

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 01:35 AM

So, that was interesting. Within an hour, the poll on RTwP or TB has gone from looking like this (mock-up):

[Linked Image]

To looking like this:

[Linked Image]


When I was hitting the refresh button on my browser, the TB votes were going up incrementally with each refresh. I think both sides were being spammed. But the votes for TB were obviously being manipulated.


Edit: Yup, they were being spammed: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086...37/?tscn=1560378420#c1639788130269478732

Considering that poster is pretending RTwP was being spammed and TB wasn't (TB went up a lot more between the times I checked), I think they're the spammer of TB.
Posted By: Thrall

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 04:15 AM

The pseudo real-time combat mechanic in BG is just awful. Larian should stick to what they do best.
IMO, the best ever combat for RPG is Fallout 1/2.
Posted By: Doomlord

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 04:29 AM

I liked Neverwinter 2 combat. You can pause, or not. The flow of the combat was to my liking it moved as fast as you wanted. Original sin 1 really turned me off with the turn based being so slow.
Posted By: Stahl33

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 06:12 AM

RTwP allows misses more effectively than TB in my opinion! Which is more to the D&D rules where misses are quite common in the earlier levels.

You can fire off a few initial spells, and instead of having to do something every turn, you can just watch it happen for a bit... Easy fights are easy without needing to pause.

TB slows the game quite a bit, and if it is a game without cooldowns or without a lot of special attacks (ie. a lot of white attacks), then RTwP is much better. You can allow some party members just do their thing under their AI direction without having to worry. TB slows all that down.

The focus should be on the role play, not the combat and RTwP allows that focus to be where it should be..... IMO lol
Posted By: DerricktheCleric

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 13/06/19 11:07 PM

I'm pretty disappointed the Poll only has one or the other, and not a voting option for both. In fact, I'm pretty disappointed in general how much support I see for one option or the other, with no mention of simply showing general demand/support for Larian providing both options. Especially since some of the "arguments" for one or the other option turn extremely vicious, condescending, or insulting.

Larian is an excellent studio with a good track record of not rushing games or cutting corners, I think its extremely fair to hope that they consider themselves financially and developmentally capable of providing both options, it strikes me as incredibly stupid that we as their community aren't making it abundantly clear we absolutely want both, and are accepting of the additional development time/cost that may incur (though I have difficulty thinking it would be some sort of insane difference, as RTwP is fundamentally TB, but with less direct control).

While I respect that previous BG entries have been RTwP, it has some serious issues in terms of making certain classes/playstyles pretty much unplayable. The base D&D rules these games are built on have no allowance for "Well your Wizard cast fireball on Target X, but at the same time that he was casting, Target X ran into melee range of your front line, you just fireballed your front line and there's nothing you can do about it!", or the alternative "You cast Fireball at Square X, all the enemies moved while you were casting, you just fireballed an empty field!". This goes for pretty much any AOE in the previous games.

At the same time, I understand that some people find being stuck with TB for every single fight in games that are admittedly MUCH more combat heavy than the tabletops they are based off of, especially combats with large numbers of unthreatening minions that require little to no strategy to annihilate, can begin to feel very grindy/boring.

So, what is the solution for dealing with the potential drawbacks of either system? HAVE BOTH FOR THE LOVE OF BAAL! Every single person who posts a long-winded, patronizing, argumentative post about why it should be one or the other, without at least starting their rant with "If Its not going to be both, which is the best option, I want it to be...." looks like a complete nincompoop to me. Best case scenario, you try and actually enjoy both systems, allowing you an entire additional playthrough of the game that feels unique from your previous runs. Worst case scenario, you hate one so much you never even try it, but other people buy the game wanting the system you don't, game makes more money, maybe gets additional lifespan/support/content/expansions, you get more game out of your game on the backs of people you disagree with (and insult freely). BOTH WAYS YOU WIN.

TL;DR: PLEASE GOD STOP ARGUING FOR ONE OR THE OTHER WITHOUT AT LEAST MENTIONING "BOTH" IS BY FAR THE BEST POSSIBLE OPTION FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.
Posted By: Try2Handing

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 14/06/19 04:36 AM

Quote
Every single person who posts a long-winded, patronizing, argumentative post about why it should be one or the other, without at least starting their rant with "If Its not going to be both, which is the best option...."

I think I know why people don't do that. "Instead of arguing which is better, I'll be content with saying both would be best". If everyone is content with saying the OBVIOUS, which is "both would be best", WHAT ELSE is there to talk about??? The point of these "discussions" is to make a point that can be argued for and against, so that people can share different points of view, so that they have something to think about and talk about. It promotes thinking, reasoning, understanding others, and in this case, writing too, if someone cares enough to pay attention to what they're typing. If everyone just says, "yeah both would be best", then there's just.... nothing. Nothing to think about. Nothing further to say. It's a completely empty conversation. So to answer your question, it's because the "both would be best" stance is so obvious and mind-numbing that most don't bother to mention it.

The fact that people's arguments start becoming obnoxious is a different matter. The fact that people can't resist acting like arrogant and ignorant 8-year-olds doesn't mean "debating" is bad. It's not the debating. It's because people are people.

With your post, you're essentially asking questions like "Why do people fight?", "Why do wars exist?", "Why is human such an evil race and this world such a rotten place?", and screaming "STOP MAKING WARS AND JUST LIVE PEACEFULLY TOGETHER, HUMANS!" at random people. There's nothing wrong with asking yourself such questions, but, you know, they rarely lead you anywhere. You just realize that you can't change people. The best you can do is strive to be a better person yourself. That's about it.

Not that I have any problem with your post. I don't participate in any of the recent discussions regarding BG3, so I couldn't care less what people say. I just couldn't resist, sorry.

That said, I agree that having EVERYTHING as options so ANYONE can choose whatever they want is DEFINITELY the BEST outcome. (See, this is why I'm not participating in all these discussions.)

PS: It's "BHAAL", btw.
Posted By: DerricktheCleric

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 14/06/19 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Try2Handing
[quote]The point of these "discussions" is to make a point that can be argued for and against, so that people can share different points of view, so that they have something to think about and talk about. It promotes thinking, reasoning, understanding others, and in this case, writing too.


While I appreciate that impressively optimistic take on this whole thing, I have to disagree. The point of overtly failing to point out the obvious solution, or in this case leave the best vote-able choice off of the poll, is not to promote discussion and growth, its to bait a fight for fun. Going hard into one side or the other without admitting that Both is the obvious solution is like throwing a mannequin into an intersection to watch the resulting crash. Its inciting drama and argument for no good reason.

This is in no way comparable to disagreements/fights over situations with no clear cut answer. Wars for example are generally over a lack of resources, they come into existence for measurable concrete underlying causes, and a failure or inability to find an alternative to conflict.

This situation is literally nothing like that. There's a simple, attainable, obvious solution. Also, the point of this forum is (at least I hope it is) to communicate with the Developers. While I appreciate your high-minded ideals of scholarly debate, the discussion of RTwP vs. TB could be had anywhere, it could even be had on these very forums, it just 100% does not have to be couched in terms of what this upcoming game should be. Argue the merits of either all you want, just do it on a general level, don't try to force it onto the actual game, when the game could just be both! Why are we wasting time communicating our ability to have pointless, infantile arguments, when we could simply all communicate that we would like the clearly most rewarding and objectively best outcome here, and anything less is just plain unacceptable?

If I walked into a room where two people were purchasing an RC Plane and one person was arguing that the landing gear should be cut off and destroyed because they only care about the plane flying, while the other was arguing that the wings should be cut off and destroyed because they only cared about it being able to roll down a landing strip, I wouldn't stop and appreciate the beauty of their scholarly discourse. I would call them both idiots, and let them know that if they just stop arguing, they already have something that gives both of them what they want.

Admittedly, all of this assumes that Larian studios possesses the necessary expertise and developing budget to provide a game capable of both RTwP and TB combat as options at the same time. I'm making that assumption because the two systems simply aren't that dissimilar, other studios with fewer resources have done it to excellent effect (see PoE 2), and I'm pretty sure the 19 years worth of improvements to game engines and developer expertise should make it a low bar to hurdle. Now if Larian's developers come out and say "Sorry but it would cost an extra $250M to have two combat systems, we're going with just one" then my assumptions will have been wrong, but I will be very surprised if that's the obstacle blocking this game from being awesome for both sides of the aisle.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 06:08 AM

I think I would rather have just one of them done to perfection over both of them done pretty good. I would prefer TB - But if it comes down to it, I would rather have a fully fleshed out RTwP with no TB system if having both made it seem like corners were cut. I just want it to be good, either way, really. I'm already a bit worried about when Swen mentioned something like, 'In D&D you miss a lot if the dice are bad. That doesn't work well in video games.'

If the video game is based on D&D, then it works exactly how it's supposed to. TB or RTwP debate worries me much less than his statement. Tweak around the edges how you like, but at least leave a setting in game to give the option to have core rules complete with random dice rolls. What's the point of even getting the license from WOTC if you're not going to make a game with D&D rules?
Posted By: DerricktheCleric

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by Brent2410
What's the point of even getting the license from WOTC if you're not going to make a game with D&D rules?


Following my own advice and starting this with "Please do both, both is just better than either alone", I do have to point out that RTwP is going to ruin it for you if you're concerned about following the core rules. D&D is a turn based game. The moment you switch to RTwP, you have to massively change a whole slew of things to make the game work. Its the core mechanic of combat, you change it, you have to rewrite the whole thing from the ground up. I love the BG series, but they play absolutely nothing like a tabletop in any measurable way. Most of what's good/fun/rewarding about strategic thought and party planning in tabletops is utterly absent in RTwP games, as there's no feasible way to pull it off due to the overlapping chaos of actions.

Take hit rates for example, if its RTwP they're going to get adjusted away from the core ruleset, there's no two ways about that. One of the things hit rates in a TB system assume is enemy actions being split up by friendly actions. Your ranger gets hit by 3 of the 6 enemies you are facing, but then turn 4 your Cleric comes up and can throw out a heal, so you're doing okay. In RTwP, all 6 enemies act at the same time. If all 6 hit your ranger, boom, ranger dead, no opportunity for counterplay of any kind. Time to save scum or write off the Ranger, all while your Cleric has a full complement of healing spells available you simply weren't given the opportunity to use. How do you offset this in RTwP? You bottom out enemy hit rates to spread the damage, and up Player hit rates so they can chew through multiple enemies faster before a stroke of bad luck still causes those 6 simultaneous hits.

Pathfinder Kingmaker is a rather depressing direct example of this exact thing. I love, love, loooooooove the Pathfinder ruleset with all my heart. I was so excited to hear a PC game based on it was being released. Then they did it RTwP, no TB option. The result? A game with a veneer of Pathfinder lore and gameplay that is literally NOTHING like Pathfinder, at all, in any way. It was hideously disappointing to say the least. To be fair, it might have been a fun game if I hadn't wanted it to be Pathfinder, but because I bought Pathfinder Kingmaker hoping for a Pathfinder game, and got a generic RTwP "select all and autoattack" snoozefest, it was just a huge letdown.

Anyway, I digress, I really just wanted to say, if you want a game that keeps the actual D&D ruleset, I would suggest advocating hard for it having both RTwP and TB, because the TB option makes it much more likely they'll actually use the mechanics of the source material.
Posted By: dlux

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 12:54 PM

This is Baldur's Gate. It should obviously be RTwP-based.

I can also imagine that real-time (without pause?) would be intense and a real blast in multiplayer. smile
Posted By: Phi 42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 01:00 PM

Two things I want to chime in on:

1. RTwP will necessarily wreck the rules

this is mostly due to initiative concerns. There was a game (with many other flaws) Called "Drakensang: The Dark Eye" (NOT Drakensang Online) that had accurate initiative and turn based combat in a RTwP game. When there were more enemies the turns became a bit longer, but all in all it was still very fluid and kept the order of actions correct at the same time. The only "flaw" was, that all actions had to be locked in at the start of the combat, and movement was obviously a bit skewed because run speed did not align at all with the duration of a round of combat. But for the base game (DSA in german TBE in English) the part about locking in all actions for the round was actually true to the rules.

Point is: RTwP can be pulled off in a Manner that does not necessarily destroy all other rules. The movement issue would be funny, D&D allows a nice amount of movement per Combat round.

2. AI for companions

I liked the gambit system of FF12. 'nuff said.

okay, not 'nuff said, here a little bit of explanation: FF12 had the usual ATB thing from Final fantasy going on, but they did remove the option of putting in all commands by hand, instead giving you some scant few slots of "Gambit" that you could fill with a trigger (ally below x%, leaders target enemy, highest magic power foe, etc.) and an action (cast heal, use item, attack, use special skill, etc.) and the AI always did the first thing whose trigger and action were available on the list.

It was a bit clunky, the limit on actions was always an issue as you needed to swap around the ailments you clear for some zones. And I'd like some more triggers (e.g. Friend has skill available for combo and is not occupied by healing) and ifs and essentially run my party entirely on some selfmade(!) programming. I know that is not everyones cup of tea, but it is mine.

ah one third thing: I lean more to the turn based approach myself.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 01:15 PM

All of my favourite RPGs have RTWP Fallout New Vegas, Dragon Age Origins and Pathfinder Kingmaker. Larian already made RTWP games so I hope they continue BGs tradition.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 02:05 PM

No it is not true at all that RTwP "wreck" D&D rules. Core rules were not changed for combat in the original BG games. In that RTwP system you still had rounds and turns and weapon speed and casting time. All that happened was that time was running continuously unless and until you, the player, decided to stop it rather than the game forcing it to stop for you. Also, rather than assigning orders strictly sequentially to your characters, you can give out orders all at once and then watch as those orders got resolved over time.

P:K also follows this same system and is very much true to Pathfinder rules. It is EVERYTHING like Pathfinder.

This argument that if the pnp version of a game is TB then the computer version of the game should also be TB is a completely fake and ridiculous argument that has no logic to it whatsoever. Personally I think it is a way for people who want every damn RPG to be TB to make such a demand without also appearing to be selfish.
Posted By: Halfling Rogue

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by dlux
This is Baldur's Gate. It should obviously be RTwP-based.

I can also imagine that real-time (without pause?) would be intense and a real blast in multiplayer. smile


^
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
No it is not true at all that RTwP "wreck" D&D rules. Core rules were not changed for combat in the original BG games. In that RTwP system you still had rounds and turns and weapon speed and casting time. All that happened was that time was running continuously unless and until you, the player, decided to stop it rather than the game forcing it to stop for you. Also, rather than assigning orders strictly sequentially to your characters, you can give out orders all at once and then watch as those orders got resolved over time.

P:K also follows this same system and is very much true to Pathfinder rules. It is EVERYTHING like Pathfinder.

This argument that if the pnp version of a game is TB then the computer version of the game should also be TB is a completely fake and ridiculous argument that has no logic to it whatsoever. Personally I think it is a way for people who want every damn RPG to be TB to make such a demand without also appearing to be selfish.


You're objectively wrong when it comes to Pathfinder. Its half-assed aborted implementation of flanking, for example, is a direct result of the Real Time with Pause system.

As P:K also demonstrates, action types in a Real-Time with Pause system become very difficult to understand, particularly when it comes to movement. What the hell is a 5ft Step in a RTwP game, for example? The concept of rounds/turns becomes completely lost in the system.
Then you have other issues like UI text spam because of the speed of the action. Just go into P:K, throw out an entangle at a group of enemies and watch your screen get filled with barely readable overlapping text "Saving throw Failed!" in the middle of all the chaos. Hell, just try the turn-based mod for P:K, suddenly combat is actually readable and enjoyable.
Posted By: Phi 42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 02:38 PM

Thanks Kanisatha, that sparked a thought in me.

In P&P Combat is where you lean back, wait for your turn (and maybe chat with your friends - depending on your personal play style) while glorifying all hit and dmg rolls and especially the crits while imagining just how awesome those blows all land and maybe describing to each other how and where exactly you want to cut the Enemy up, or just how nonchalant you look while decapitating hordes of lesser beings with each swing of your sword.

this can not be recreated in a single player game. some of the tactical stuff yes, but all the cheering for a crit or random explanation of where you want to hit the enemy are almost impossible to put into any game that is less than full SAO style VR.

Or in other words: Combat with automatic rolls that are not announced by a genuinely happy (or dejected) player is inherently less interesting than P&P combat.

usually the only goal of such combat is to survive and make sure the enemy is no longer willing to mess with the characters (make enemies with weak agency to fight to the death flee!) and just rolling that out is... boring. I'ts why i like automation in my single player combat, after i created my AI in my likeness (only better) i can sit back and enjoy watching the fight and continue on with the things where my agency really lies: exploring a bit, looting every nook and cranny (or not, if i were ever given incentive for not doing that like the D:OS cities.) and solving my own problems (the quest)

If the goal of the combat directly aligns with my own goal (normally named enemies) i am much more willing to play that whole combat subgame, but that is it. I am not that much of a combat kinda guy and I'd prefer it if combat was not the first, last and only otion in too many cases or the main way to gain experience.
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 02:57 PM

You're just giving another reason for BG3 to be Turn-Based, since a big focus of it will be the campaign playable in co-op with your friends.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Phi 42
Thanks Kanisatha, that sparked a thought in me.

In P&P Combat is where you lean back, wait for your turn (and maybe chat with your friends - depending on your personal play style) while glorifying all hit and dmg rolls and especially the crits while imagining just how awesome those blows all land and maybe describing to each other how and where exactly you want to cut the Enemy up, or just how nonchalant you look while decapitating hordes of lesser beings with each swing of your sword.

this can not be recreated in a single player game. some of the tactical stuff yes, but all the cheering for a crit or random explanation of where you want to hit the enemy are almost impossible to put into any game that is less than full SAO style VR.

Or in other words: Combat with automatic rolls that are not announced by a genuinely happy (or dejected) player is inherently less interesting than P&P combat.

usually the only goal of such combat is to survive and make sure the enemy is no longer willing to mess with the characters (make enemies with weak agency to fight to the death flee!) and just rolling that out is... boring. I'ts why i like automation in my single player combat, after i created my AI in my likeness (only better) i can sit back and enjoy watching the fight and continue on with the things where my agency really lies: exploring a bit, looting every nook and cranny (or not, if i were ever given incentive for not doing that like the D:OS cities.) and solving my own problems (the quest)

If the goal of the combat directly aligns with my own goal (normally named enemies) i am much more willing to play that whole combat subgame, but that is it. I am not that much of a combat kinda guy and I'd prefer it if combat was not the first, last and only otion in too many cases or the main way to gain experience.

Well put. And I think this is precisely where the dividing line is between TB and RTwP. The reason tabletop games are ALL TB (not just D&D and Pathfinder but also Monopoly and Scrabble etc.) is because when you have a group of people around a table playing a game, it HAS to be TB. There is no other possible mechanic. And if you then take that game to the computer medium and retain having a group of people playing it (co-op/multiplayer), it would continue to make sense to have the game be TB. But the moment that game on the computer medium becomes a single-player game, TB no longer makes any sense and in fact becomes EXTREMELY boring, tedious, annoying and frustrating.

So I think this debate is less about TB v. RTwP and more about co-op v. single-player. And because of the D:OS games, the co-op preferring gamers now take it for granted that RPGs should be all about co-op play and if someone (stupidly) wants to play the game single-player they can, but the game should be built and optimized for co-op play. This is where my reference to selfishness comes in. The people who are interested only in co-op play are being selfishly dismissive of the single-player side of the game.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
You're just giving another reason for BG3 to be Turn-Based, since a big focus of it will be the campaign playable in co-op with your friends.

Why? If the game is being sold as both single-player and co-op, then both those are equal. Why should the people wanting co-op play be entitled to a superior gaming experience?
Posted By: Halfling Rogue

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 03:09 PM

[quote=Phi 42] Two things I want to chime in on:

1. RTwP will necessarily wreck the rules

this is mostly due to initiative concerns. There was a game (with many other flaws) Called "Drakensang: The Dark Eye" (NOT Drakensang Online) that had accurate initiative and turn based combat in a RTwP game. When there were more enemies the turns became a bit longer, but all in all it was still very fluid and kept the order of actions correct at the same time. The only "flaw" was, that all actions had to be locked in at the start of the combat, and movement was obviously a bit skewed because run speed did not align at all with the duration of a round of combat. But for the base game (DSA in german TBE in English) the part about locking in all actions for the round was actually true to the rules.

Point is: RTwP can be pulled off in a Manner that does not necessarily destroy all other rules. The movement issue would be funny, D&D allows a nice amount of movement per Combat round.

2. AI for companions

I liked the gambit system of FF12. 'nuff said.

okay, not 'nuff said, here a little bit of explanation: FF12 had the usual ATB thing from Final fantasy going on, but they did remove the option of putting in all commands by hand, instead giving you some scant few slots of "Gambit" that you could fill with a trigger (ally below x%, leaders target enemy, highest magic power foe, etc.) and an action (cast heal, use item, attack, use special skill, etc.) and the AI always did the first thing whose trigger and action were available on the list.

It was a bit clunky, the limit on actions was always an issue as you needed to swap around the ailments you clear for some zones. And I'd like some more triggers (e.g. Friend has skill available for combo and is not occupied by healing) and ifs and essentially run my party entirely on some selfmade(!) programming. I know that is not everyones cup of tea, but it is mine.

ah one third thing: I lean more to the turn based approach myself.
[/quote]



1). Have you read Players Handbook? it states that its just a guide to be followed losely and that you should certanly change the rules to what you like ( making the game your own) And if you are a true DnD fan that actually played it with pen and paper, you should know that this is probably the most important rule in Players Handbook and of pen and paper.

EDIT : Why is my "Quote" looking wrong?
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 03:48 PM

I've never played a cRPG in co-op in my life and even selfish people should prefer turn-based - it's more tactical, easier to read, easier to follow, can be faster than RTwP, and most importantly allows for straight porting of P&P rules.

The "I like automation" isn't even an argument. Party AI systems can be implemented in turn-based games if you like just watching people do stuff instead of actually playing out the encounters.

Seems like the people who defend RTwP simply like to breeze past combat encounters as fast as possible, and as such prefer the system because it doesn't force them to interact with the combat mechanics. Your average joe can breeze through BG1, 2, IWD, and PoE on core rules without really knowing what the fuck is going on mechanics wise.

Personally, none of the defining features of Baldur's Gate II were the real-time with pause system, so I'd welcome a change to a system that allows more depth, better pacing and faithful recreation of the ruleset.
Posted By: Phi 42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by Halfling Rogue

Originally Posted by Phi 42

Two things I want to chime in on:

1. RTwP will necessarily wreck the rules

this is mostly due to initiative concerns. There was a game (with many other flaws) Called "Drakensang: The Dark Eye" (NOT Drakensang Online) that had accurate initiative and turn based combat in a RTwP game. When there were more enemies the turns became a bit longer, but all in all it was still very fluid and kept the order of actions correct at the same time. The only "flaw" was, that all actions had to be locked in at the start of the combat, and movement was obviously a bit skewed because run speed did not align at all with the duration of a round of combat. But for the base game (DSA in german TBE in English) the part about locking in all actions for the round was actually true to the rules.

Point is: RTwP can be pulled off in a Manner that does not necessarily destroy all other rules. The movement issue would be funny, D&D allows a nice amount of movement per Combat round.

2. AI for companions

I liked the gambit system of FF12. 'nuff said.

okay, not 'nuff said, here a little bit of explanation: FF12 had the usual ATB thing from Final fantasy going on, but they did remove the option of putting in all commands by hand, instead giving you some scant few slots of "Gambit" that you could fill with a trigger (ally below x%, leaders target enemy, highest magic power foe, etc.) and an action (cast heal, use item, attack, use special skill, etc.) and the AI always did the first thing whose trigger and action were available on the list.

It was a bit clunky, the limit on actions was always an issue as you needed to swap around the ailments you clear for some zones. And I'd like some more triggers (e.g. Friend has skill available for combo and is not occupied by healing) and ifs and essentially run my party entirely on some selfmade(!) programming. I know that is not everyones cup of tea, but it is mine.

ah one third thing: I lean more to the turn based approach myself.




1). Have you read Players Handbook? it states that its just a guide to be followed losely and that you should certanly change the rules to what you like ( making the game your own) And if you are a true DnD fan that actually played it with pen and paper, you should know that this is probably the most important rule in Players Handbook and of pen and paper.

EDIT : Why is my "Quote" looking wrong?


D&D is not my main system, so i have personally only skimmed over the rules. mostly character creation and advancement, DM and Party were nice enough to explain the rest to me. It is all very intuitive and/or i have seen most of the rules before somewhere.
It is nice to know that the Players Handbook explicitly states that. We mostly use D&D if we want to be very creative with the setting and don't want to deal with iffy specific lore formatted into rules, because the D&D rules support that type of playing really well. I ran multiple campaigns as the DM and as a player, my most important tidbit of wisdom is, that everyone at the table should have fun. Modifying the base rules might help some to achieve that, so always nice to see the rule written out.

your "Quote" might look wrong because of spacing. try putting all [/quote] tags in their own line maybe? Not that it matters too much.
Posted By: Phi 42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
I've never played a cRPG in co-op in my life and even selfish people should prefer turn-based - it's more tactical, easier to read, easier to follow, can be faster than RTwP, and most importantly allows for straight porting of P&P rules.

Dont tell me what I prefer. yes, yes, yes, CAN be faster. Ok. should use a hexgrid then I guess.
Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
The "I like automation" isn't even an argument.

You are correct, it is not. It is not even meant to be. Just wanted to say that automation is a nice thing for some people, maybe just me.
Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
Party AI systems can be implemented in turn-based games if you like just watching people do stuff instead of actually playing out the encounters.

Yes, my agency is rarely in the fighting part of games.
Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
Seems like the people who defend RTwP simply like to breeze past combat encounters as fast as possible, and as such prefer the system because it doesn't force them to interact with the combat mechanics. Your average joe can breeze through BG1, 2, IWD, and PoE on core rules without really knowing what the fuck is going on mechanics wise.

again: Yes, my agency is rarely in the fighting part of games. also I have had enough players at the table incapable of understanding what the fuck was going on mechanics wise. Great players most of them.
Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
Personally, none of the defining features of Baldur's Gate II were the real-time with pause system,

true. combat mechanics make beat em ups and spectacle fighter games great (maybe some others) for a story driven RPG the fighting system should not be a liability to the story. It can even be great in and of itself, but its role is to challenge you mechanically while the game challenges you morally with its quests.
Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
so I'd welcome a change to a system that allows more depth, better pacing and faithful recreation of the ruleset.

as i just said, i don't think the depth of a cRPG is defined by how you go about clobbering the enemy mechanically. when Swen said that part about missing a lot being frustrating - imagine it in a turn based combat. it is infuriating enough to make you savescum. I have had players at the table totally frustrated by missing twice in a row with 80% + hit chance (iirc the worst streak was 5 misses at 90% hit chance, one being critical and losing the weapon, losing horribly to an objectively weaker foe in the process) in RTwP the high miss chance is mitigated by the fact that everything is moving so quickly. that is an argument. an actual argument why it might be TB (it wouldn't have been a problem elsewise) and what is tangibly better about RTwP. this doesn't mean I am on board for RTwP > TB. I'm not. I hated it in DA and SCL. it's just a counterpoint. quote from a totally diffent discussion: "If a counterpoint exists then the original point can't unilaterally disprove the argument." (Mekronid) and my counterpoint is exactly regarding to "keep true to the rules" because TB is very tempting for savescumming, which is totally not the rules. how about every targeting effect pauses the game until the effect is resolved for the movement vs. AoE discussion. Why always talk problems and not solutions?
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 10:46 PM

I don't see how TB vs RTwP is any more or less savescummy... make it so you can't save during combat in both. That's how almost every other game is.
Posted By: Phi 42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Brent2410
I don't see how TB vs RTwP is any more or less savescummy... make it so you can't save during combat in both. That's how almost every other game is.

well... okay, got me there. if you can't save mid combat you can't savescum combat.
But if you can save mid combat then RTwP has so many things going on and pausing on reload is such a pain that scumming is mostly not worthwhile. in TB you can make every attack of your team hit or even crit when you can save (though critting is also a drag to pull off each time, hitting is not. depending on the loading time a bit here)
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 11:26 PM

Well, we seem to disagree on a fundamental level.
I don't find it excusable for RPGs to have poor combat, and sadly the big majority of them do. Coincidentally, the only ones that don't, use turn-based systems. Now, you might think that's a coincidence, but I don't think so.

"TB is very tempting for save scumming"
What does combat system have to do with the save system? Most games don't allow saving in combat at all. Other games that do allow it implement a rolling seed system that mitigates save scumming (see new XCOM games).

"when Swen said that part about missing a lot being frustrating - imagine it in a turn based combat. it is infuriating enough to make you savescum. I have had players at the table totally frustrated by missing twice in a row with 80% + hit chance (iirc the worst streak was 5 misses at 90% hit chance, one being critical and losing the weapon, losing horribly to an objectively weaker foe in the process) in RTwP the high miss chance is mitigated by the fact that everything is moving so quickly."
I don't think your example of the tabletop experience is very relevant without knowing classes, party level, buffs, creature being fought. I can have my players fight a dragon at 5th level and they'll miss every attack - that doesn't mean turn based is worse because they're missing, it just means my encounter is shit or they're terrible at the game.

It's true that RtWP might mitigate the "miss" situation by masking it through the quick pace of combat, but it does nothing to address it. This leads to players not even realizing they're missing, which in turn promotes designers creating encounters that don't even require any brain to get past to save players the frustration (like most of BG2). Again that goes back to my earlier point - players who defend RtWP don't actually care about the combat and just want to skip it and all mechanics. Are these the people that should be deciding the combat system of a game? If they just want to skip it, there's combat-system independent ways of doing so (difficulty settings). If a game has a combat system its normal difficulty should force players to interact with its systems to solve problems - and that's exactly why Turn-Based is the preferred choice, its slower pace of information allows for much more organized and premeditated encounters that make players use strategy to overcome them. It's why the Original Sin games aren't RtWP, it's why ToEE isn't RtWP.

If you don't like the possibility of missing you can just reduce the difficulty, there's nothing wrong with that. Alternatively, you can get better at the game - either by yourself or simply asking for help online if you're having trouble. It's a rewarding process!
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 15/06/19 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
Well, we seem to disagree on a fundamental level.
I don't find it excusable for RPGs to have poor combat, and sadly the big majority of them do. Coincidentally, the only ones that don't, use turn-based systems. Now, you might think that's a coincidence, but I don't think so.

No, it's called subjective opinion. There's nothing objective about your selection of which games have good combat. I'm sure all those games you think have good combat I see as having crappy combat. For example, the D:OS games have the worst combat system I have ever seen in a video game. ToEE's combat system is pretty shitty too.
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 12:18 AM

You can objectively assess the quality of a game's combat using multiple criteria.

But as I said, we disagree on a fundamental level. Again, at risk of repeating myself, it goes back to my point - you don't particularly care about the combat, you want to effectively skip and get it over with. I don't.

Since the disagreement is on a fundamental level and the interests are diametrically opposed, the discussion is pointless. Doesn't mean one is right or wrong, we just have underlying differences when it comes to what a role-playing game should provide.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum

But as I said, we disagree on a fundamental level. Again, at risk of repeating myself, it goes back to my point - you don't particularly care about the combat, you want to effectively skip and get it over with. I don't.

Please refrain from trying to tell me what I want. Only I get to say what I want.
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 01:00 AM

Yeah I thought you were the other dude. My bad.
Posted By: Bukke

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 11:38 AM

I think that under ideal circumstances both options would be available at the start of the game, similarly to how you choose the difficulty setting in most games.
Pillars of Eternity 2 initially only had a RTwP option but later on added an option to play the game in turn based mode. I haven't played it myself so I don't know how successful the conversion of the entire combat system turned out to be, but it seems like it'd be the best course of action if Larian wants an option for both groups of players who prefer the different types of combat.

Considering that BG3 still is in development I'd dare say this is the best point of time to add both options to the game. This way they can balance and adjust the combat encounters appropriately every time they are added to the game rather than having to go back at a later date (as was the case with POE2) and start all over with applying the second combat system to every encounter that already had been added to the game.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 02:12 PM

Yeah I agree. And as such I strongly disagree with the view that they should pick one or the other and do it well and not do both poorly. That is a completely false choice. It is entirely possible to do both very well. Larian is not some small startup studio and this is a AAA game with a AAA budget. They also don't have to spend time and money creating the rules-set or the setting, because these are already created for them. So building, from the ground up, parallel combat systems using RTwP and TB is eminently feasible and realistic, where neither mode ends up being "secondary" to the other in terms of game's systems and content.
Posted By: Iuris Tantum

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 16/06/19 05:19 PM

You have to compromise the ruleset further to accomodate RTwP playability. Just look at Kingmaker.
They'd be dealing with two combat systems to design and balance, which isn't exactly easy and raises questions like should rule parity between the two be a thing. If they were to opt for rule parity, then the Turn-Based option would come out crippled inevitably by the concessions that have to be made in favour of RTwP.
You have examples of games that attempted both modes and were complete clown fests, like Arcanum and the Might & Magic series.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 17/06/19 09:53 AM

Where's the option both/either?
Posted By: kyubajin

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 18/06/19 08:50 PM

Tactical turn-based all the way. It's the key differentiating system that made DOS 1&2 the masterpieces they are.
Posted By: salobard42

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 19/06/19 09:23 PM

I would love to see turn based but doubt it will be a thing since Larian in the other titles never seems to do turn based. But there is some hope since Pillars of Eternity 2 not long ago got a turn based options maybe Larian can do something similar.
Posted By: Stahl33

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 20/06/19 12:30 AM

Anyone seeing any developer comments on this forum?
Even just to say "Hi, We are listening?"?
Posted By: vometia

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 20/06/19 04:28 AM

The developers are seen on the modding forums periodically. I have no idea how much attention they're paying to this particular one.
Posted By: V4skunk

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 02:41 PM

Most of the polls have RTwP winning at around 60%.
TB people are the most vocal and seem like the majority on forums, this is not true!
When we have a poll on these Larian forums that can easily be cheated to vote multiple times and RTwP is still winning says quite a lot about what is more popular.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 02:58 PM

maybe because RTWP people are also those with 2 or 3 posts who recently popped up to push their agenda.
Realy makes you think....
Posted By: vometia

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
maybe because RTWP people are also those with 2 or 3 posts who recently popped up to push their agenda.

Guilty as charged.
Posted By: cyseal

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 06:33 PM

Guys and gals, this poll doesn't have any meaning at all. 1000 votes sample is not enough to prove anything.
If given the chance that 1 million- 2 million steam players could vote, then sample estimation could have some validation.

Let developers do the best what they can with Divinity Original Sin 2 gameplay which is already proven to be great.
Posted By: Brent2410

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by cyseal
Guys and gals, this poll doesn't have any meaning at all. 1000 votes sample is not enough to prove anything.
If given the chance that 1 million- 2 million steam players could vote, then sample estimation could have some validation.

It wasn't meant to mean anything. I honestly just posted it because I was curious at every ones preferences. Also, @cyseal @cyseal shiver me timbers and slither me eels.
Posted By: Artagel

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Iuris Tantum
You have to compromise the ruleset further to accomodate RTwP playability. Just look at Kingmaker.
They'd be dealing with two combat systems to design and balance, which isn't exactly easy and raises questions like should rule parity between the two be a thing. If they were to opt for rule parity, then the Turn-Based option would come out crippled inevitably by the concessions that have to be made in favour of RTwP.
You have examples of games that attempted both modes and were complete clown fests, like Arcanum and the Might & Magic series.


And what about PoE2? I've not played through much of it in either style, but it seems to work well enough from what I see online. I could see some people dismayed a bit because both the presentation of TB and the graphics in general of PoE2 aren't at the level of D:OS2, but you have to remember Larian will be able to put much more into both those areas for BG3. Without any official info released yet it's hard to picture, but I don't see why anyone wouldn't have confidence in studios this size figuring it out.

Originally Posted by vometia
The developers are seen on the modding forums periodically. I have no idea how much attention they're paying to this particular one.


Well, if you haven't gotten the request already, this is me formally requesting you or another Mod to, ummm... ask them.

Originally Posted by Sordak
maybe because RTWP people are also those with 2 or 3 posts who recently popped up to push their agenda.


Yes, because we should just stay at any one of the OTHER official BG3 forums and spread our nonsense there...
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 23/06/19 09:22 PM

PoE, you mean the game that implemented turn based combat later on because one of the higher ups actually thought it worked better.
PoE is basically a continuation of the ideas of the infinity engine.
It didnt do nearly as well as games with some originality, and i think as far as RTWP games go, Kingmaker is the better pick. There just seems to be more passion behind it.

And yeah, just seems curious. Ever since the announcement, there was a lot of screeching on almost all forums, including 4chan when it came to the combat system and the writing.
Im getting kind of annoyed by it.
For the record, i think were getting something thats neither RTWP or Turn Based.
From what Sven said, im almost certain were getting a real time action combat system with some squad controlls, something like a western dragons dogma.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 10/07/19 08:41 AM

Where do you get that impression from?
Posted By: Blade238

Re: Poll on what combat system you want in BG3 - 11/07/19 03:56 PM

I actually preferred PoE2's way of doing it and allowing for both systems being in place.

That being said, I almost always RP a rogue, or DW, or DPS class in any RPG. Unfortunately, many TB games don't lend themselves to a high attack speed, DPS character. If they can balance it in such a way that this is possible, then I'd almost always go for a TB game (being a F1/2 addict).

If that isn't possible, then RTwP is my go to and currently is in PoE2 due to TB not allowing any attack speed class.
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