Larian Studios

Playstyle Direction

Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Playstyle Direction - 14/07/19 10:43 AM

So, I wonder if this game's playstyle is going to feel more similar to IE Baldur's Gate or to NWN (as in terms of "gaming dimension", if focused on the Hero or the Hero & his party). What do you think?
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Playstyle Direction - 14/07/19 07:04 PM

I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.
Posted By: Lemernis

Re: Playstyle Direction - 14/07/19 09:19 PM

In terms of gameplay closer to BG series, versus NWN. In terms of the graphics vice versa.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Playstyle Direction - 14/07/19 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


BG however is a single-player only game, this one, like NWN, will feature multiplayer. I personally hope they emphasise the Hero dimension, rather than the Group dimension.
Posted By: Lemernis

Re: Playstyle Direction - 14/07/19 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


BG however is a single-player only game, this one, like NWN, will feature multiplayer. I personally hope they emphasise the Hero dimension, rather than the Group dimension.


BG does have a multiplayer mode, actually.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


For years I heard that NWN1 was better then NWN2, and rescently got the mobile version of NWN1 and it sucks compared to NWN2. No party, can't pick your gods, ect..., why anyone thought NWN1 was better then the incredible NWN2. I was so disappointed.
Posted By: Artagel

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 03:51 AM

Why would they design it to be like NWN, but call it BG3? Why not just acquire the NWN name instead?

If you are talking art design, that is the big question right now. The 2d background and sprites was good for 1998. Unlikely they wouldn't try something new for 2019. It's anyone's guess what 3d style it ends up looking like.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 07:46 AM

NWN2 is actually a better game than NWN1, NWN2s engine is just realy not very good, the graphics are all over the place (while NWN1s graphcis sucked equally) and modding was easier in NWN1.
In many cases its Old good new bad.

Also Dark Answem BG had multiplayer just like Icewind dale, but yes it wasnt the focus. In NWN it was the focus.
Which kind of explains why NWNs campaign was largley hated, but NWN also had a very big community that keeps making content.

the focus of the game willl obviously be simmilar to BG, party focused rather than Individual character focused.
However, i hope they can capture NWNs multiplayer magic since its one of the coolest things to ever come out of CRPGs. NWN kind of beat MMOs at their own game at times, as it is much closer to what MMOs wanted to be when they were first created vs what MMOs turned into
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by Artagel
Why would they design it to be like NWN, but call it BG3? Why not just acquire the NWN name instead?

If you are talking art design, that is the big question right now. The 2d background and sprites was good for 1998. Unlikely they wouldn't try something new for 2019. It's anyone's guess what 3d style it ends up looking like.


I'm talking about general direction, not entire design, FFS.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


For years I heard that NWN1 was better then NWN2, and rescently got the mobile version of NWN1 and it sucks compared to NWN2. No party, can't pick your gods, ect..., why anyone thought NWN1 was better then the incredible NWN2. I was so disappointed.


Says you. Hordes of the Underdark and several custom campaigns, or premium modules, vastly outclass all of NWN2 bar Mask of the Betrayer.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 12:05 PM

Its a bit unfair to say the good expansion of NWN1 outclasses NWN2.... besides the good expansion of that game.
Each game had a good expansion.
And judging games based on mods is, eh.

Id say NWN1 has better modding tools and a more active community.
But in terms of party based gameplay, NWN2 wins. So id say NWN1 for multiplayer, NWN2 for singleplayer.

Especialy since NWN2 has the entierty of BG1, IWD1 and Pool of Radience as Modules
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Its a bit unfair to say the good expansion of NWN1 outclasses NWN2.... besides the good expansion of that game.
Each game had a good expansion.
And judging games based on mods is, eh.

Id say NWN1 has better modding tools and a more active community.
But in terms of party based gameplay, NWN2 wins. So id say NWN1 for multiplayer, NWN2 for singleplayer.

Especialy since NWN2 has the entierty of BG1, IWD1 and Pool of Radience as Modules


Disagree completely. NWN1 has amazing modules, some of which I'm playing right now, all good for Single Player (even solo), such as a Dance with Rogues, Almraiven, Blackguard, Ravenloft, Lost Caverns of Tsocajnth, and even the Tomb of Horrors!

Not to mention, NWN1 Premium modules have some gems such as Kingmaker, Wyvern Crown, or Pirates of the Sword Coast, all good in SP - and Infinite Dungeons.
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 09:58 PM

Despite the fact that both games share the same name, I think the gameplay is very different, and you cannot really compare.
One is an Action rpg that you can play in coop MP, the other is a Party-based Crpg that you can play coop online. ¿Can you compare Total war: Warhammer with Warhammer: Vermintide? Two games based in the same world but with a very different approach.
It is normal for people to like one more than the other. I´ve played both games in sp and mp (even the original NWN).

In my case, I´m into strategy games and party based RPGs (The more the merrier). I like to have a band, a party or a legion I can manage, level up manually or equip. So to me, it will always be better for me the games Xcom, IWD, Fire Emblem, Mordheim, Mount&Blade, blackguards, Drakensang, Mass effect than others that could be good, but I do not like the mechanics, like Dragons dogma, Gothic, Darksiders, etc.

Logically, to me NWN2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NWN1 in each and every aspect possible. The NWN OC is a borefest even in MP. Shadows and Hotu are better, fortunately. Persistant worlds are fun, but are made by modders. And the classes` balance... I just say there is a reason everybody is a weapon master at high levels.

Mask of the betrayer is one of the most compelling stories in a D&D game, besides bg and PST.
Storm of Zehir and the OC in NWN2 allow you more interaction with your companions and have some very interesting mini-game mechanics, like the party based MC, the merchant guild or the castle management that adds variety.
Posted By: loudent

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem

Says you. Hordes of the Underdark and several custom campaigns, or premium modules, vastly outclass all of NWN2 bar Mask of the Betrayer.


Um....so the *best* of them all was NWN2 MoTB? How does that support your "NWN1 was better than NWN3" narrative?

Keep in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight, My view on both NWN games is the toolset/API provided is what determines the best. Most SP stories are 'meh' at best for me
Posted By: loudent

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by _Vic_

The NWN OC is a borefest even in MP.


Fun fact the OC in the original game was never intended to be an OC. It was originally built to demonstrate the capabilities of the toolset but someone came by later and convinced them to build it into a full SP experience.

I've been playing NWN1 recently and it's been hard to come back from NWN2. I think for a pure melee experience it's playable (with the exception that my rouge companion likes to not disable traps). but with casters....oof that's just sucky.
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Playstyle Direction - 15/07/19 10:44 PM

That explains A LOT.

The pixie familiar is the best rogue companion in the game if you are a caster. Tomi and Dorna simply do not know how to do their jobs (Dorna, you are a f... cleric, use find traps!!!"). There are several hackpacks that address this issue, but the henchman´s AI is very messy. The game itself forces you to pick some levels of rogue in every build in SP to avoid frustration.
I personally prefer the summon undead and the animal companions and familiars instead of the henchmen (You do not really miss very much there besides in hotu and Daggerford). And trust me, for me it is a very BIG deal that I am tempted to forfeit a companion in an rpg game. I even finished Numenera with Rin and P:K with Tristian laugh Yeah, I am that big of a "M".

In most PW they avoid traps and locks, luckily. The rogues had very bad press because you always had to wait for them in MP: Wait for them to run in sneak, wait for them to craft their traps, wait for them to disarm the traps... And eventually they are going to multiclass to Weapon Master, like everybody, so...

Originally Posted by loudent

Keep in mind, I don't have a dog in this fight, My view on both NWN games is the toolset/API provided is what determines the best. Most SP stories are 'meh' at best for me


ED: If we compare toolsets, I think that NWN takes the cake (maybe the only plus the game has, the toolset and the mp). NWN2 Aurora toolset has some "inutilities" so hardcoded and so much headache-inducing workarounds to make that you may think Obsidian has stocks on pharmaceutical companies. If you compare that with the NWN toolset, or even the DoS2 (not the Dos1) toolset, the one that allows you to make quick fixes with the notepad if you misstep...



Posted By: loudent

Re: Playstyle Direction - 16/07/19 12:24 AM

[
Originally Posted by _Vic_


ED: If we compare toolsets, I think that NWN takes the cake (maybe the only plus the game has, the toolset and the mp). NWN2 Aurora toolset has some "inutilities" so hardcoded and so much headache-inducing workarounds to make that you may think Obsidian has stocks on pharmaceutical companies. If you compare that with the NWN toolset, or even the DoS2 (not the Dos1) toolset, the one that allows you to make quick fixes with the notepad if you misstep...


I respectfully disagree. NWN1 had way more stuff hard coded or simply not doable. I spent. years in the NWN1 toolset and years in the NWN2 toolset and I'd take NWN2 any day. The only _arguable_ point in terms of modding is that in NWN1 the tile based area creation was much simper and quicker to put together.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Playstyle Direction - 21/07/19 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted by Artagel
Why would they design it to be like NWN, but call it BG3? Why not just acquire the NWN name instead?

If you are talking art design, that is the big question right now. The 2d background and sprites was good for 1998. Unlikely they wouldn't try something new for 2019. It's anyone's guess what 3d style it ends up looking like.


I'm talking about general direction, not entire design, FFS.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


For years I heard that NWN1 was better then NWN2, and rescently got the mobile version of NWN1 and it sucks compared to NWN2. No party, can't pick your gods, ect..., why anyone thought NWN1 was better then the incredible NWN2. I was so disappointed.


Says you. Hordes of the Underdark and several custom campaigns, or premium modules, vastly outclass all of NWN2 bar Mask of the Betrayer.


Storm of Zehir beats them all because gasp, you actually get to have a party of your own design, or even a party at all. Also better character creation, races, subraces, Gods and so on.
Posted By: theBlackDragon

Re: Playstyle Direction - 22/07/19 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
So, I wonder if this game's playstyle is going to feel more similar to IE Baldur's Gate or to NWN (as in terms of "gaming dimension", if focused on the Hero or the Hero & his party). What do you think?


Probably neither, since Swen has gone on record knocking multiple things that made the originals (and especially BG2) what they were. He doesn't appear to like the way D&D was adapted for the IE games (and by proxy, NWN), which, imho is rather an essential thing to "get" when you try to make a follow up.

Then there's the little issue that BG2 was one of those games that did very little innovation but had everything come together "just right", even people working on the originals were unable to recreate that magic on multiple occasions now, so I think one should adjust one's expectations accordingly when a studio with zero ties to the originals tackles such a project.

I have honestly no clue why, given the remarks Swen has made in multiple interviews, they decided to take on the creation of a BG3, other than "because they can" (probably should have wondered whether they should have, as well). For WotC it's pretty obvious: money, for Larian, well, I like to think they're still above that.

Imho they should have just gone with Baldur's Gate: The Whatevering, if they really wanted to tackle the setting and capitalize on the name, but *not* BG3 because from everything I've seen so far they appear to have no intention of actually making what people expect a BG3 to be. Which saddens me, honestly. It might turn out a good game in its own right, but if it doesn't live up to the legacy it will just get shelved with the likes of Fallout 3 (decent enough game, terrible Fallout)

And just for the record, do not take this the wrong way, I do like Larian and I've at least played (though not finished) I think all of the PC games they've put out (including The LED Wars) but I honestly have a very uneasy feeling about this project. I do believe that, at the very least, they've bitten off more than they can chew but of course I'd love to be proven wrong. Time will tell. But I think it would be good that people set their expectations accordingly.
Posted By: LostSoul

Re: Playstyle Direction - 22/07/19 08:38 PM

Hi all. I think the second last word is the truth."expectations".
If you expect a game based on dnd 5e, consistent with the lore of BG (as per Wotc), crpg, with due seriousness but with lighter moments I think we'll be reasonabley happy.

If you expect to feel about this game the same way you felt 20 years ago when you played BG, well that's unlikely. You have changed in the last 20 years as well. Some have stated is Must to real time with pause, or it must have this character etc etc otherwise they won't play the game! I don't think everyone will get what some have asked for.
Posted By: Dark_Ansem

Re: Playstyle Direction - 23/07/19 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted by Artagel
Why would they design it to be like NWN, but call it BG3? Why not just acquire the NWN name instead?

If you are talking art design, that is the big question right now. The 2d background and sprites was good for 1998. Unlikely they wouldn't try something new for 2019. It's anyone's guess what 3d style it ends up looking like.


I'm talking about general direction, not entire design, FFS.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by _Vic_
I really hope that the game stays as far as they could from NWN. The only party you have in NWN is when you play multiplayer. Your companion(s) have barely more personality, interaction and utility than your summoned skeleton.

If I wanted that I will search for Skyrim 2 (TES VII), not BG3.


For years I heard that NWN1 was better then NWN2, and rescently got the mobile version of NWN1 and it sucks compared to NWN2. No party, can't pick your gods, ect..., why anyone thought NWN1 was better then the incredible NWN2. I was so disappointed.


Says you. Hordes of the Underdark and several custom campaigns, or premium modules, vastly outclass all of NWN2 bar Mask of the Betrayer.


Storm of Zehir beats them all because gasp, you actually get to have a party of your own design, or even a party at all. Also better character creation, races, subraces, Gods and so on.


Bleah, a soulless party like Icewind dale.
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Playstyle Direction - 24/07/19 04:31 AM

At least in SoZ you can recruit your talkative henchmen after in the campaign. There is even a mod to recruit an entire party of companions.

I have to say that in IWD / IWD2 I use a mod that has generated companions with banters, background etc. If I want to try builds I modify them via EEKeep instead of creating new ones.
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