Larian Studios

Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3

Posted By: korotama

Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 01:02 PM

Excerpt from IGN's interview with Swen Vincke:
https://sea.ign.com/baldurs-gate-ii...sia-and-the-complexity-of-baldurs-gate-3
Quote
IGN: Larian is making Baldur's Gate 3 now and Baldur's Gate is such a beloved franchise. How are you going to live up with the fans' expectations?

Swen: I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. What we're doing is we're making our type of Dungeons & Dragons with a lot of love for what came before and with also putting our own stamp on it.


I am sorry that Swen feels that way about BG fans. Permit me to speak freely about "fan expectations": This board has already discussed whether there is a significant overlap between D&D fans and longtime BG players so I am not going to steer the thread in that direction. What bugs me is that Swen and the dev team seem to be putting so much emphasis on innovation and translating 5E rules into a video game that I'm no longer certain if we will be getting a tabletop simulator or a role-playing game. To what extent a video game can capture the unpredictability and creativity of a D&D game master is beyond me.

For what it's worth, many great RPGs had poor or broken launches (which to my knowledge includes BG) but ultimately their saving grace was a skillful concoction of storytelling, writing and character development. Can we all agree that is what makes the difference between a game that will get shelved after one playthrough and one that is often revisited and has a vibrant modding community years after release? Being deeply immersed in a fictional setting is literally the only thing I expect of a
role-playing game
. As far as I'm concerned, Larian can screw up and cut corners on everything else. Thank you.

If you believe fan expectations are soaring through the roof, be a sweetheart and let me know how. There have been brainstorming sessions on here but trying to portray them as unreasonable fan expectations is a little underhanded in my view. I don't recall ever saying things like "I refuse to buy this game if you do not heed my suggestions" with the exception of one thread which coincidentally had to do with writing which I strongly believe is essential for an RPG and more important than any other component.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
There have been brainstorming sessions on here but trying to portray them as unreasonable fan expectations is a little underhanded in my view.

Swen was not referring to the entirety of speculation. The question was specifically about the highest expectations (living up to mild interest for a D&D game isn't a very high bar).
Would you claim no expectations are unreasonable? Or mutually exclusive with other expectations?
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by korotama
There have been brainstorming sessions on here but trying to portray them as unreasonable fan expectations is a little underhanded in my view.

Swen was not referring to the entirety of speculation. The question was specifically about the highest expectations (living up to mild interest for a D&D game isn't a very high bar).
Would you claim no expectations are unreasonable? Or mutually exclusive with other expectations?

No, I certainly would not claim no expectations are unreasonable although it is a very broad term, Raze. I think Swen means well but going on a war footing with fans whose ideas he disagrees with is poor form for a renowned company. I am certain that even those with supposedly unreasonable expectations care about the series and will end up buying BG3. The important thing is that everyone's views be acknowledged whether it's the guy threatening to set himself on fire if combat isn't RTWP or the forum user who wants tons of recruitable characters. I hope Swen does not see us as haters because creating rifts in the community will hurt everyone in the long run. That said, if you would release some gameplay footage or new trailers much of that speculation would probably be put to rest.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 02:58 PM

I certainly agree with Swen in my perspective. It's not either that some expectations are "too high", they are also very varied. Gather a group of 20 active discord users in the #BG3 channel, and they'll all have different opinions on whether it should be turn based, RTWP or some hybrid. They'll have mixed opinions on whether flying should be a level 3 spell, or a level 1. And then the discussion usually proceeds in a fashion as if they're the designers and trying to convince one another which is the best solution, and thus they build up a personal romantization of what is 'the ultimate BG3', even if subconsciously. Because when it lands, and it is not what they had personally settled through their countless discussions, that's against what they've made up their mind about wanting, and so it goes against their expectation.

There are only two things I am certain about with Baldur's Gate 3. It will be an amazing game, but it will also have a minority, but still a handful of reviews and forum threads about how it's not what it's "supposed to be" in the mind of the reader.

What I believe is rather the more underlying message from Swen is that there's no way all expectations can be met, you can't fill a bucket but empty it at the same time. There are binary expectations, where you can't meet both because they are direct opposites. There are considerations to be made between what makes gameplay fun (and work) contrary to the 5e ruleset it's inspired by, not followed as a Bible as some fans expect. There are people out there that expects a 5e interactive D&D campaign with a Baldur's Gate 3 stamp on it. Those are the expectations that should be curbed to some extent, because while 5e is absolutely fantastic as tabletop with friends over a late, long night, there are aspects that simply won't work as well in a video game medium, or will require considerable creative liberations to make it work. But if you do that, again, it'll upset some expectations.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer

There are only two things I am certain about with Baldur's Gate 3. It will be an amazing game...

Would you care to elaborate how you have arrived at this certainty? I only have one trailer, some concept art and a few gameplay/setting tidbits to go on.

Originally Posted by The Composer

What I believe is rather the more underlying message from Swen is that there's no way all expectations can be met, you can't fill a bucket but empty it at the same time.

Oh, I get it. He speaks in code.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 03:48 PM

This is a very uncharitable interpretation.Or more to the point a very charitabel interpretation of fan expactations.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Sven obviously means that people love Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 and thus their expectations are so ridiculuosly high that they cannot possibly be met by any developer.

And they are, even this board cannot decide on what it wants.
Does it want innovation? Does it want Obsidian style full use of the infinity engine?
Ive seen people taking offense at Sven saying THAC0 is a bad system (it is).

You simply cannot please the highest fan expectations if they are mutually exclusive.
And thats why they arent trying to, they are trying to make a good game. At least thasws my charitable interpretation of the last interview.

I dont wanna play larian defense force here, but come on, you cant act as if fans are easy to please
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
This is a very uncharitable interpretation.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Sven obviously means that people love Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 and thus their expectations are so ridiculuosly high that they cannot possibly be met by any developer.

Okay, let's agree this is all a matter of interpretation. In that case I hope Swen will revisit the things he said in this interview and clarify his stance towards BG fans because these days some devs think not having microtransactions are ridiculously high expectations on the consumer's part.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by Sordak
This is a very uncharitable interpretation.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, Sven obviously means that people love Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 and thus their expectations are so ridiculuosly high that they cannot possibly be met by any developer.

Okay, let's agree this is all a matter of interpretation. In that case I hope Swen will revisit the things he said in this interview and clarify his stance towards BG fans because these days some devs think not having microtransactions are ridiculously high expectations on the consumer's part.



I might be mistaken, but it reads to me as if you feel personally targetted and expect/want a form of apology from Swen. I'd strongly disagree. You should at least clarify why it'd warrant an apology, preferably in an objective, rational presentation of your argument. With that said, I'd like to mention that pretty much every game development project faces the challenge of meeting and pleasing expectations. Swen is just open and honest about what his stance is on the matter. I think that's way better, than being fed hyperbolic false truths No Man's Sky style.

There's no particular targetted expectation or person in the statement, rather a general indication that we should invividually question ourselves and our expectations, if they're actually fair and reasonable or not. It sounds like you and I have similar expectations or wishes, so I don't think you fit the bill of 'unreasonable expectations' regardless.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:17 PM

I think in the abstract Swen is correct about unreasonable fan expectations. But I don't have any sympathy for him or his position re. expectations because he was the one who chose to make a game specifically titled "Baldur's Gate 3". The moment that "3" got added to the title, one has to expect extremely high fan expectations including even unreasonable expectations. The correct way this should have been done, imo, is for the project to have been titled "Baldur's Gate: subtitle". They are trying to have their cake and eat it too, and that will not turn out well.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
[quote=korotama]

I might be mistaken, but it reads to me as if you feel personally targetted and expect/want a form of apology from Swen. I'd strongly disagree. You should at least clarify why it'd warrant an apology, preferably in an objective, rational presentation of your argument. With that said, I'd like to mention that pretty much every game development project faces the challenge of meeting and pleasing expectations. Swen is just open and honest about what his stance is on the matter. I think that's way better, than being fed hyperbolic false truths No Man's Sky style.

There's no particular targetted expectation or person in the statement, rather a general indication that we should invividually question ourselves and our expectations, if they're actually fair and reasonable or not. It sounds like you and I have similar expectations or wishes, so I don't think you fit the bill of 'unreasonable expectations' regardless.

Dude, a clarification is not an apology. It doesn't have to begin with I'm sorry or please forgive me, oh exalted fans! I'd like to know what he meant by the supposedly high expectations because he was referring to BG fans as per IGN's question after all.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha

[...] a game specifically titled "Baldur's Gate 3". The moment that "3" got added to the title, one has to expect extremely high fan expectations including even unreasonable expectations. [...]


Which is precisely the context of the answer this thread is about. Some expectations are so unreasonable, they're impossible to meet. So any sane developer would naturally focus on making a game they believe is fun and good, instead of stressing about trying to do the impossible. That's all there is to it, no ill meaning or 'at war' with anyone. It's a simple, rational reply from a developer's point of view. So if you read the quote again.

Originally Posted by Swen

I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. What we're doing is we're making our type of Dungeons & Dragons with a lot of love for what came before and with also putting our own stamp on it.


Then it should (hopefully) make a bit more sense. They're making a D&D style game in their vision and under their design philosophies, and has enough confidence and trust in that to believe it'll be a great adventure for the majority of us.

To draw some out of context but relevant comparisons, I'm making a mod for DOS2 that acts like an expansion. I've gotten emails from a select few players out in the world, having their own interpretations and expectations from what ever material I've put out there, sharing their own requests and ideas which I appreciate very much. Their interest flatters me, even though some of what they've mentioned in their mails just is way out of scope and beyond reasonable expectation. Now, my point is that this is for a simple large mod-project. There's already expectations I know I'll never meet. There's not a hair of doubt on my body that there are similar, probably a lot more well thought out feedback that Larian have gotten about Baldur's Gate 3, that might even be some really great ideas, but are way out of scope or not align with the game development they're going for. So that's what I base my perspective on, is what I'm trying to convey. My experiences tell me that Larian is certainly very aware of the various debates out there, and that not all of them are even remotely within reasonable scope.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:45 PM

But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.


Sounds like a pre-determined subjective expectation that is impossible to meet.

Originally Posted by korotama

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.


I don't think we have any verifiable reasons to make prejudice judgements like that.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.


Swen said in every single interview that he does not care about BG1+2 that he is making his own thing, he can safely ignore the BG fans since D&D has grown so much that he doesn't require them to make profit. Why ist that so hard to understand?
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 05:00 PM

Oh man, he never said that.
im not gonna beat you over the head with it, since aperently pointing this out is verboten here, so let me phrase it this way then: Sven obviously cares because he IS a baldurs gate fan.
He said so in several interviews now.

But as for him not caring about what the fans want? I dont think he does, but id like it if he did.
Why? Because Obsidian did that, beamdog did that, and it didnt work.

People need to start realizing that they like the thing they always liked for a reason, because its that thing. you cannot simply replicate it and get the same result.
You cannot recapture the magic of old, you can only try to create something new.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 05:32 PM

I can say with absolute certainty that he never mentioned BG as one of his favourite games he always prefered system-driven games and his favourite RPG is Ultima 7.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Oh man, he never said that.
im not gonna beat you over the head with it, since aperently pointing this out is verboten here, so let me phrase it this way then: Sven obviously cares because he IS a baldurs gate fan.
He said so in several interviews now.

But as for him not caring about what the fans want? I dont think he does, but id like it if he did.
Why? Because Obsidian did that, beamdog did that, and it didnt work.

People need to start realizing that they like the thing they always liked for a reason, because its that thing. you cannot simply replicate it and get the same result.
You cannot recapture the magic of old, you can only try to create something new.


Exactly. I think the high expectations the he knows he can't meet are the 2e RTwP isometic 2D fans who want BG3 to be an extension of BG1&2, but Sven has to balance that minority of BG fans with the much larger D&D 5e/Forgotten Realms fans that will make or break BG3s success.

You've got certain demographics that will be eyeing BG3, Baldur Gate 1 & 2 that are open to TB and other changes from BG1&2, BG 1&2 fans that want it to be functionally a large expansion pack for BG1&2, fans that play D&D, fans that watch D&D streaming and/or read FR novels, Larian Studios fans, and people who can be converted by their friends on Stadia. Most of these groups Larian is confident they can please, but they already know that BG traditionalists are going to be pised. It's not going to 2e rules, it's not going to use 2d graphics, it's not going to be RTwP, it's over a hundred years since BG ToB in game time, and it's going to use a host of systems that they are not familiar with. BUT this game will sell to the majority of BG fans, it will sell well to D&D fans, it will sell well be FR fans, it will sell great with Larian Studios fans, and it will sell well with Stadia users, so the loss of BG traditionalists of various types is acceptable in business terms, unfortunate, but acceptable. Larian Studios are making the game they like and they like turn-based and very tactical and very flexible in options. And big, this is going to be freaking huge.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.


Swen said in every single interview that he does not care about BG1+2 that he is making his own thing, he can safely ignore the BG fans since D&D has grown so much that he doesn't require them to make profit. Why ist that so hard to understand?

Originally Posted by Hawke
I can say with absolute certainty that he never mentioned BG as one of his favourite games he always prefered system-driven games and his favourite RPG is Ultima 7.


If that is the case, would you even recommend BG3 to series veterans? Wiki says the series has sold some 5 million copies, if he wants to ignore that share of the gaming market that's his choice I guess.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 06:08 PM

Who knows BG3 could be an Action game for all we know at the moment.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 06:16 PM

you cannot chase the past
look at all the other CRPGs that tried to chase it, it doesnt work
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
you cannot chase the past
look at all the other CRPGs that tried to chase it, it doesnt work

Though I liked Pillars of Eternity the more recent indie RPGs undoubtedly tried to play it safe but I suppose we are talking about the same thing. Swen is absolutely on the right track when he says creative risks need to be taken but if it's going to be so far removed from the predecessors then yeah maybe it should have been a spin-off instead of a mainline sequel.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.


Swen said in every single interview that he does not care about BG1+2 that he is making his own thing, he can safely ignore the BG fans since D&D has grown so much that he doesn't require them to make profit. Why ist that so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand. I understand it perfectly well. The lack of understanding is not on my side.

As you say, Swen has said he doesn't care about BG1&2, and he can safely ignore the fans of the older BG games. So then, given all of this, why call the game BG3? And don't tell me WotC made him do it. There is zero evidence to support that, and in that recent interview Swen himself says he chased after making a BG3 game specifically.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
People need to start realizing that they like the thing they always liked for a reason, because its that thing. you cannot simply replicate it and get the same result.
You cannot recapture the magic of old, you can only try to create something new.

Finally a post of yours that makes sense to me and with which I agree. They want to create something new, and that's great. So why not call it something new as well? Why call it BG3?
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 16/11/19 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
But then why did they choose to (mis)title the game BG3? If making a D&D game in their own style and vision is what they want to do, that's great. Go make that game. But that game is NOT a game called BG3.

Agreed... Baldur's Gate is a well-established albeit old franchise and messing with the brand alienates fans. I'm not mentally ill for wanting a little clarification.


Swen said in every single interview that he does not care about BG1+2 that he is making his own thing, he can safely ignore the BG fans since D&D has grown so much that he doesn't require them to make profit. Why ist that so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand. I understand it perfectly well. The lack of understanding is not on my side.

As you say, Swen has said he doesn't care about BG1&2, and he can safely ignore the fans of the older BG games. So then, given all of this, why call the game BG3? And don't tell me WotC made him do it. There is zero evidence to support that, and in that recent interview Swen himself says he chased after making a BG3 game specifically.

Do you want a reason? it's very simple: MONEY CASH DINEROS
BG3 is just a job to earn a lot of money with the big D&D community, It's why most companies do license product because they sell well.
I am perfectly fine with that but I have no illusions that this is about more than money.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 17/11/19 04:05 PM

Quote

Do you want a reason? it's very simple: MONEY CASH DINEROS
BG3 is just a job to earn a lot of money with the big D&D community, It's why most companies do license product because they sell well.
I am perfectly fine with that but I have no illusions that this is about more than money.


Such cynism. They wouldn't need to take creative risks if it was just about the money. Everything I have read about Sven and Larian Studios tells me it's not about the money, it's about creative freedom to make the sort of games they like. Money is of course part of the means to that ends, but money is not the ends, just the eans.

They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.

Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 17/11/19 04:09 PM

Ok, then @Hawke we agree, except for that you are fine with it whereas I am not.

Essentially, Larian is saying: We don't care about BG1&2 and their legacy; we also don't care about making the fans of those original BG games happy; but, we're going to call our game BG3, even though it is completely unrelated to and very different from the original BG games, just to see if we can con you fans of those original games into buying our game.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 17/11/19 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.

You're of course free to hold to your rosy view of Larian, and I'll hold to mine.

But you are dead wrong about the name Baldur's Gate. Yes it is just a city in that setting, but in the context of videogames it is the legal title of a videogame IP franchise. So a game titled "Baldur's Gate 3" is by definition linked to games titled "Baldur's Game 1" and "Baldur's Gate 2", whereas it is NOT linked to games titled "Icewind Dale" or "Neverwinter Nights" even though those games are also D&D Forgotten Realms games because those games are not part of the "Baldur's Gate" IP franchise. So this discussion has ZERO to do with a game being a D&D game or a Forgotten Realms game. It is about placing this game within the "Baldur's Gate" franchise.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 17/11/19 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

Such cynism. They wouldn't need to take creative risks if it was just about the money. Everything I have read about Sven and Larian Studios tells me it's not about the money, it's about creative freedom to make the sort of games they like. Money is of course part of the means to that ends, but money is not the ends, just the eans.

They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.


I respect their creative aspirations towards D&D and the Forgotten Realms but as others have pointed out you can't call it BG3 and act as if the millions of fans who have played the previous games are trying to stonewall your efforts at making a sequel out of pure spite. If the devs had truly wanted a clean break and an opportunity to play with the FR setting without any strings attached they could have spared themselves a lot of trouble by calling their game something else. Heck, maybe not BG3 but Baldur's Gate: Mindflayer Scourge or something in that vein. They can still change the name if they like. I know dealing with fans isn't easy but I'm absolutely certain they knew full well taking over Bioware et al.'s legacy would carry a lot of baggage. If they think series veterans are disrupting the creative process I am 100% in favor of a name change for the sake of the game's quality. Perhaps it would make their job easier.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 17/11/19 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.

You're of course free to hold to your rosy view of Larian, and I'll hold to mine.

But you are dead wrong about the name Baldur's Gate. Yes it is just a city in that setting, but in the context of videogames it is the legal title of a videogame IP franchise. So a game titled "Baldur's Gate 3" is by definition linked to games titled "Baldur's Game 1" and "Baldur's Gate 2", whereas it is NOT linked to games titled "Icewind Dale" or "Neverwinter Nights" even though those games are also D&D Forgotten Realms games because those games are not part of the "Baldur's Gate" IP franchise. So this discussion has ZERO to do with a game being a D&D game or a Forgotten Realms game. It is about placing this game within the "Baldur's Gate" franchise.


Not only are they linked by name but the storyline itself revolves around the Bhaalspawn exclusively. Even Beamdog stuck to the beaten path with Siege of Dragonspear (parts of which I thoroughly enjoyed). We will never know what the original tentative Baldur's Gate 3 would have looked like because it was canceled (I don't put too much stock in the design docs because it's no guarantee they would have stuck with the proposed setting). The only way I can see BG3 moving on from the Bhaalspawn saga is if it pays sufficient homage to 1 and 2 and draws on the events from those games in order to introduce a new setting and new characters.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.

You're of course free to hold to your rosy view of Larian, and I'll hold to mine.

But you are dead wrong about the name Baldur's Gate. Yes it is just a city in that setting, but in the context of videogames it is the legal title of a videogame IP franchise. So a game titled "Baldur's Gate 3" is by definition linked to games titled "Baldur's Game 1" and "Baldur's Gate 2", whereas it is NOT linked to games titled "Icewind Dale" or "Neverwinter Nights" even though those games are also D&D Forgotten Realms games because those games are not part of the "Baldur's Gate" IP franchise. So this discussion has ZERO to do with a game being a D&D game or a Forgotten Realms game. It is about placing this game within the "Baldur's Gate" franchise.


The Forgotten Realms IS the IP, it IS the Setting, it IS the Franchise, it's like saying Andoria is a seperate franchise to Vulcan and Trill. It's not thr first BG named gane that wasn't about the Bhaal Spawn even. Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance has that honour.

Look I agree they shouldn't have called it BG3, if only to save us from headaches, but WotC likely told them to.

We know it won't use 2e rules, it's the much better 5e rules, we know its not about Bhaal Spawn (although Bhaal is likely in it), we know it's well over a hundred years later, and so far it sounds extremely likely to be TB.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
They went for BG3 and the Forgotten Realms (and some folks here seem to forget that BG is just a city in the Forgotten Realms, not the setting itself, the Forgotten Realms is the brand), because they are huge fans of D&D, BG, and the Forgotten Realms, they didn't need this IP, they have their own hugely profitable IP, they WANTED this IP for the love of it.

You're of course free to hold to your rosy view of Larian, and I'll hold to mine.

But you are dead wrong about the name Baldur's Gate. Yes it is just a city in that setting, but in the context of videogames it is the legal title of a videogame IP franchise. So a game titled "Baldur's Gate 3" is by definition linked to games titled "Baldur's Game 1" and "Baldur's Gate 2", whereas it is NOT linked to games titled "Icewind Dale" or "Neverwinter Nights" even though those games are also D&D Forgotten Realms games because those games are not part of the "Baldur's Gate" IP franchise. So this discussion has ZERO to do with a game being a D&D game or a Forgotten Realms game. It is about placing this game within the "Baldur's Gate" franchise.


The Forgotten Realms IS the IP, it IS the Setting, it IS the Franchise, it's like saying Andoria is a seperate franchise to Vulcan and Trill. It's not thr first BG named gane that wasn't about the Bhaal Spawn even. Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance has that honour.

Look I agree they shouldn't have called it BG3, if only to save us from headaches, but WotC likely told them to.

We know it won't use 2e rules, it's the much better 5e rules, we know its not about Bhaal Spawn (although Bhaal is likely in it), we know it's well over a hundred years later, and so far it sounds extremely likely to be TB.

No "Baldur's Gate" is the IP. That's why when Atari owned that IP (yes they did own it) WotC - which owned the D&D and FR licenses could go to someone else to make some other D&D game, but could not make a BG game without Atari's agreement. That's also why WotC fought a bitter legal war with Atari for years before finally regaining the BG, IwD, and NwN licenses back from Atari a few years ago. FR is the setting, yes, but each individual videogame made within D&D/FR is its own separate IP for videogame-making purposes.

At least we agree that BG3 was a bad choice of title, though I don't accept the "WotC made us do it" line. From all of Swen's interviews it is clear he wants to make a game with the "BG3" title. "Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here, and had they done that we wouldn't even be having this debate because I for one would not even be in this forum right now talking about the game. The only reason I am involved in discussing the game, and also why I become impassioned about issues relating to the game, is precisely because it is being called BG3. If it were BG: blah blah, I wouldn't care about the game at all and would ignore the game as a game not for me, much like I did with BG:DA.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 09:55 PM

Are you seriously talking about ethics about video games?
Gamings are comsumer goods they serve no peurpose except making money, the sooner you accept that the better.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Are you seriously talking about ethics about video games?
Gamings are comsumer goods they serve no peurpose except making money, the sooner you accept that the better.

There is a lot of truth to that statement of yours. I know someone who forked over $60 for Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order the other day. I'm not sure what features it boasts but according to HowLongToBeat the average playthrough clocks in at 15 hours. I would rather blow my brains out than let some middling developer fleece me like a sheep. Then again, perhaps my expectations are unreasonably high *cough*. The current economy has taught me valuable lessons.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by Hawke
Are you seriously talking about ethics about video games?
Gamings are comsumer goods they serve no peurpose except making money, the sooner you accept that the better.

There is a lot of truth to that statement of yours. I know someone who forked over $60 for Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order the other day. I'm not sure what features it boasts but according to HowLongToBeat the average playthrough clocks in at 15 hours. I would rather blow my brains out than let some middling developer fleece me like a sheep. Then again, perhaps my expectations are unreasonably high *cough*. The current economy has taught me valuable lessons.


If you really rate games by how much time they waste then I feel truly sorry for you.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 18/11/19 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by Hawke
Are you seriously talking about ethics about video games?
Gamings are comsumer goods they serve no peurpose except making money, the sooner you accept that the better.

There is a lot of truth to that statement of yours. I know someone who forked over $60 for Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order the other day. I'm not sure what features it boasts but according to HowLongToBeat the average playthrough clocks in at 15 hours. I would rather blow my brains out than let some middling developer fleece me like a sheep. Then again, perhaps my expectations are unreasonably high *cough*. The current economy has taught me valuable lessons.


If you really rate games by how much time they waste then I feel truly sorry for you.

Length does not have to correlate with quality or entertainment value but I like a lot of bang for my buck. Games like Baldur's Gate, Dark Souls etc. take a while to finish and you can replay them over and over again because of the variety in builds, equipment, skills and so forth. I humbly suggest you save your pity for your degenerate homeland.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I don't accept the "WotC made us do it" line. From all of Swen's interviews it is clear he wants to make a game with the "BG3" title.

Multiple people / companies approached WotC about making BG3. When they wanted to make BG3, they called Swen to see if he was still interested in doing so. If they wanted BG: Subtitle, that could easily have been a condition.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here

I don't recall any ethics debates over Fallout 3's name, etc. Lots of game / movie / book series have used numbers without being a direct continuation of previous entries.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
If it were BG: blah blah, I wouldn't care about the game at all and would ignore the game as a game not for me, much like I did with BG:DA.

If nothing at all about the game could possibly interest you by any other name, doesn't that prove it was a good choice of name?
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 01:27 PM

WOTC clearly wanted this to be a numbered sequal so its gonna be one.
I dont realy see how ti beeing a numbered sequal actually detracts from the series, especialy since we know nothing about it.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
WOTC clearly wanted this to be a numbered sequal so its gonna be one.
I dont realy see how ti beeing a numbered sequal actually detracts from the series, especialy since we know nothing about it.


That's the trick, isn't it? To not unfairly prejudge and make up your mind on information that's unavailable. It's almost as if there's certain expectations that are impossible to meet. crazy
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Sordak
WOTC clearly wanted this to be a numbered sequal so its gonna be one.
I dont realy see how ti beeing a numbered sequal actually detracts from the series, especialy since we know nothing about it.


That's the trick, isn't it? To not unfairly prejudge and make up your mind on information that's unavailable. It's almost as if there's certain expectations that are impossible to meet. crazy

No, this discussion is based on known information, as in Swen has explicitly said he is making a new game as he wants to make it without any regard for how the first two games were done. That's the whole point of this entire thread.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by kanisatha
I don't accept the "WotC made us do it" line. From all of Swen's interviews it is clear he wants to make a game with the "BG3" title.

Multiple people / companies approached WotC about making BG3. When they wanted to make BG3, they called Swen to see if he was still interested in doing so. If they wanted BG: Subtitle, that could easily have been a condition.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here

I don't recall any ethics debates over Fallout 3's name, etc. Lots of game / movie / book series have used numbers without being a direct continuation of previous entries.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
If it were BG: blah blah, I wouldn't care about the game at all and would ignore the game as a game not for me, much like I did with BG:DA.

If nothing at all about the game could possibly interest you by any other name, doesn't that prove it was a good choice of name?

Yes a VERY good choice ... if your goal is to falsely lure people to your game.

Also, Fallout 3 was made by the same company that made Fallout 1 and 2, and that company never said they were making Fallout 3 as a game that completely ignored the legacy of the first two games. Furthermore, nothing I've said has anything to do with BG not being a "direct continuation" of the first two games. Nobody expects any version of BG3 to be a direct continuation of the first two games because that story is over. I am speaking of BG3 being made in the same spirit as the first two games, i.e. new story, new characters, new timeline, but where someone who played the first two games would find the third game to be familiar in how it plays. So you are creating a strawman here.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 03:20 PM


Originally Posted by Raze

Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here

I don't recall any ethics debates over Fallout 3's name, etc. Lots of game / movie / book series have used numbers without being a direct continuation of previous entries.



So, what are you saying then? I'd still argue the same point as Raze. Plenty of franchises have continuations in their title, when the first story is even completely finished. All of this sounds like a personal opinion/expectation, and you want everyone to have the same opinion as you.

It's a '3' because it adds more to that universe, bringing in more stories to the fold. I really don't see why, what or where your upset is coming from.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Raze

Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here

I don't recall any ethics debates over Fallout 3's name, etc. Lots of game / movie / book series have used numbers without being a direct continuation of previous entries.


Of all the franchises Raze could have picked he went with Fallout. laugh
I would have taken Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest for example instead as both drive his point home more closely.
In all seriousness, Fallout's fandom are slightly divided in that one side of the aisle believes 1, 2 and New Vegas are true Fallouts and superior to 3 and 4 in terms of writing and exploration whereas the other is more likely to have been introduced to the series via 3. I would not recommend that Baldur's Gate go down this path.

The reason some people are upset on here is because there have been statements to the effect that fan expectations are "soaring through to the roof" (made without due clarification), that Swen wants to do his own thing yada yada and because next to nothing has been shown of BG3 since.. uh, June? If WoTC is trying to pull a bait-and-switch here with a product called BG3 that has absolutely nothing to do with the previous games (by the way ToB was supposed to be BG3 if I'm not mistaken so there you have it, three mainline titles that revolve around Bhaal and the Bhaalspawn) I think I have the right to know as a prospective customer. It is also my duty to let everyone know what is going on in that case. If it's meant to be a clean break then do a reboot and call it Baldur's Gate instead. This isn't about making a direct sequel to the Bhaalspawn story but whether the legacy of the previous games will be honored as far as lore, history, writing etc.

Originally Posted by The Composer

So, what are you saying then? I'd still argue the same point as Raze. Plenty of franchises have continuations in their title, when the first story is even completely finished. All of this sounds like a personal opinion/expectation, and you want everyone to have the same opinion as you.

It's a '3' because it adds more to that universe, bringing in more stories to the fold. I really don't see why, what or where your upset is coming from.


Alright, can I take you word at face value? Are you affiliated with Larian in any official capacity?
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer

Originally Posted by Raze

Originally Posted by kanisatha
"Baldur's Gate: subtitle" would have been the ethically proper way to go here

I don't recall any ethics debates over Fallout 3's name, etc. Lots of game / movie / book series have used numbers without being a direct continuation of previous entries.



So, what are you saying then? I'd still argue the same point as Raze. Plenty of franchises have continuations in their title, when the first story is even completely finished. All of this sounds like a personal opinion/expectation, and you want everyone to have the same opinion as you.

It's a '3' because it adds more to that universe, bringing in more stories to the fold. I really don't see why, what or where your upset is coming from.

Classic strawman.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 04:28 PM

My main stance here is that it seems like a waste of breath to overthink or worry about something that we simply don't know yet and get upset about that. There are of course scenarios and exceptions where that can be tangibly warranted (see SW: Rise of Skywalker concerns based on fans disappointment from Last Jedi and Disney's management of Star Wars as a whole), so that worry can stem from past experiences. The only way I can see this thread becoming relevant is if solely based on Swen's statement, of which this thread furthers to back up. People have expectations, and they make forum threads overbuilding themselves with what they personally want and expect from gameplay, story directions, titling of games, relevance to past games, etc. And there's much of it, hence "Impossible to meet expectations that are soaring through the roof".

Because, as you said, we haven't seen much of anything since the initial teaser. So there's not much to reasonably build expectations by, other than knowing something is in the works and we all hope it'll be good.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 04:43 PM

Okay, Mr. Nordmann, are you a spokesman for Larian? If not, I don't see any way this is going to be defused unless the man who recently assumed a belligerent stance towards fans the series owes its success to confirms your version is exactly what he meant. There are quite a few things attributable to PR-speak: 1) insincerity, 2) feigning ignorance, 3) whataboutism.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 04:44 PM

How is it a straw man tactic, @Kanisatha? Assuming we work under the same definitions, to pull a straw man in an argument, I would take your argument and distort it in a misrepresentable way to manipulate it into working in the favor of my argument. Do we agree on that?

If so, going back to calling my post 'classic strawman', at which point have I taken someone's argument and distorted it in a misrepresentable way? Or are you perhaps trolling?

@Korotama - No, I'm not. I'm asking you to clarify and back up your thread as OP, because I'm a discussion participant that fundamentally disagrees with you, and want you to clarify and back up your argument, as you originally demand Swen to. I've provided you with replies on what I believe and more importantly, why I believe you're in the wrong. Now it is your turn to either further build on your opinion to help me understand what you try to say, or go into personal arguments as individuals. I personally think only one of those possibilities are in any way productive.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
Or are you perhaps trolling?


I understand your plight. I'm going to give you a quick rundown:
1) Baldur's Gate 3 is announced
2) Fans rejoice
3) Larian gets to make it
4) Cinematic trailer is released
5) Interviews revealing some game mechanics and design choices are given
6) Fans make threads speculating about possible features and begging for new info
7) Swen implies fans are being unreasonable and that he's striking out on his own
We are here -> 8) Requests for clarification go unanswered

I may have got the exact sequence of events wrong but I assure you I am acting in good faith and want to help "spread the words" as Swen puts it in that interview. If I don't know whether series veterans like me will enjoy BG3 how is asking for such a favor fair to me as a fan?
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
How is it a straw man tactic, @Kanisatha? Assuming we work under the same definitions, to pull a straw man in an argument, I would take your argument and distort it in a misrepresentable way to manipulate it into working in the favor of my argument. Do we agree on that?

If so, going back to calling my post 'classic strawman', at which point have I taken someone's argument and distorted it in a misrepresentable way? Or are you perhaps trolling?

Here is verbatim what you said: "Plenty of franchises have continuations in their title, when the first story is even completely finished ...." "It's a '3' because it adds more to that universe, bringing in more stories to the fold."

Nothing in here has anything whatsoever to do with what I am saying. So yes, you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying to satisfy your counter-argument. Hence, strawman.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 06:07 PM

@ Korotama - Please read again with extra focus on the bit where that question is directed at Kanisatha in regards to his comment on my post being a straw man tactic. I am not calling you a troll.

I am fully aware of your stance, I just happen to disagree with it. I disagree with that there is a need for clarification, and believe that you've read too much into something that isn't there and decided to have opinions on it. Which is fine, but so is me disagreeing with it.

So, to strongly emphasize on the following being my personal interpretation and opinion on things:

I fear that 'veteran fans' will place their personal wishes and expectaitons in place up front of actually knowing what to expect. They will speculate and try to articulate their ideas, which also is fine. A select few will turn those wishes into demands, which is where I believe Swen's comment comes into place. If you've ever published anything at all on the internet, whether it be a YouTube video, a forum thread, a game, a short story, you can't please everyone. There will always be someone that doesn't like it, or disagrees with you, etc. Swen, like any creative human being out there, particularly experience, will know that 'veteran fans' are more prone to hype themselves up and raise their own individual ceilings of expectations so high, that as a developer, those are impossible to meet. So the smartest course of action is to not strive to please those, and rather make your own thing from what you believe will work best, and hope that it is enjoyed by most people. That's all this comment expresses in my opinion. It's not an attack on fans, it's not "striking out", it's just a reply to a question from an interviewer expressing what is a common stance for any creative production out there, particularly if having a pre-existing fan-base.

I think that this thread is pointless, and only serves to prove said comment that you wish for a clarification on, as it has now gone into speculation and ideas that goes ahead of itself, based on things we don't know yet. I also think that because of that, all this is, is a disservice to yourself and to cause yourself a headache where there's no real cause to do so. It's a non-issue that's blown up from what I can tell.

Literally all we know at this point, is that Mindflayers will be in focus, and Larian is working in conjunction with WoTC to make it. We don't know much more other than a few comments through interviews, and that Larian is doing what they believe is the right choice for the game and with their flavor on it.

So the TL;DR is that I think it's way too early to speculate and make expectations at all, at least on things we simply don't know yet. Doing so, in my opinion, is just a disservice to one self. Some people take this (arguably bad) habit and gets way ahead of themselves and sometimes end up in a negative mindset prematurely to having any reason to be so, and I believe that's what Swen means, that certain fans fall into this trap and potentially ruin their experience before there's even anything to experience.

Quote
If I don't know whether series veterans like me will enjoy BG3 how is asking for such a favor fair to me as a fan?


Absolutely. We're all curious if we're going to enjoy BG3. So far, Mindflayer fans can be excited. We don't know too much else beyond that. That's why we're eagerly awaiting more info. Though, no one can ever tell you if you're going to enjoy something in advance. So even if Swen were to drop by and leave you a comment to clarify, I'm not sure if it would actually clarify anything, and he certainly wouldn't be able to tell you whether or not if you as a veteran fan of the series will enjoy BG3. In fact, I'd rather be concerned if anyone did promise that.




-----------------

@Kanisatha - I'm inclined to disagree. In order to misrepresent what you say, I have to in some fashion repeat what you've said, or quote snippets of it to serve my argument. I'd like to ask you in specific quotes of how, where and when I've done any straw man'ing against you. On that subject, let me actually quote a post from you.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by Sordak
WOTC clearly wanted this to be a numbered sequal so its gonna be one.
I dont realy see how ti beeing a numbered sequal actually detracts from the series, especialy since we know nothing about it.


That's the trick, isn't it? To not unfairly prejudge and make up your mind on information that's unavailable. It's almost as if there's certain expectations that are impossible to meet. crazy

No, this discussion is based on known information, as in Swen has explicitly said he is making a new game as he wants to make it without any regard for how the first two games were done. That's the whole point of this entire thread.


Now, I've taken the liberty to make the part I wish to comment on from you in bold. You're (from what I understand), saying that "Swen has explicitly said he is making a new game as he wants to make it without any regard for how the first two games were done", yet in the very article cited in OP's post, Swen says this:

Quote
I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. What we're doing is we're making our type of Dungeons & Dragons with a lot of love for what came before and with also putting our own stamp on it.


Is he not saying the exact opposite there, in comparison to what you're claiming he said? Is this not hyperbolic, or perhaps a bit of a strawman? To further elaborate on this:

Quote
Well, the team who made previous Baldur's Gate games have spread around but we talked to a whole lot of them. We chatted with them about how to do it. We also talked to the people of Wizards of the Coast obviously since they're the owner of Dungeons & Dragons. So we came up with something that I think it's good. We'll see.


If they do not care about previous installments of the series, why would they talk with previous developers about how they made the previous games. It would almost sound like as if they're interested in trying to do their best in giving the game as best service and attention as they can? At least I think so.

So, please tell me.

1) How is it strawman? Use quotes. Point out specifics for me and help me understand, please.
2) Can you please share a reference to where Swen have explicitly said he is making a new game as he wants to make it without any regard for how the first two games were done? Preferably with a link to your source.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 06:09 PM

Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 06:49 PM

Fallout's a strange one. FO3 was panned before it was even released; and even today, the virtually identical NV is touted as its polar opposite in terms of "Teh Narrative" etc. When some people pointed out it was basically the same, it was "yeah, but Obsidian were forced to do it Bethsoft's way" and now The Outer Worlds has, erm, landed (which is awesome, btw) it seems that given the choice, Obsidian have made a game that feels just like a Bethsoft one. er anyway. I guess I my point if there is one is to not get too hung up on the execution. To look at it another way, as I've frequently stated, I am Not A Fan™ of isometric turn-based, for example, but absolutely had a blast with DOS and DOS2. Ultimately it didn't matter that much, it's the game as a complete package that counts IMHO.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 19/11/19 06:49 PM

@Kanisatha

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by The Composer
How is it a straw man tactic, @Kanisatha? Assuming we work under the same definitions, to pull a straw man in an argument, I would take your argument and distort it in a misrepresentable way to manipulate it into working in the favor of my argument. Do we agree on that?

If so, going back to calling my post 'classic strawman', at which point have I taken someone's argument and distorted it in a misrepresentable way? Or are you perhaps trolling?

Here is verbatim what you said: "Plenty of franchises have continuations in their title, when the first story is even completely finished ...." "It's a '3' because it adds more to that universe, bringing in more stories to the fold."

Nothing in here has anything whatsoever to do with what I am saying. So yes, you are deliberately misrepresenting what I am saying to satisfy your counter-argument. Hence, strawman.


I just noticed/realized, it's actually kind of funny even. How can I deliberately misrepresent what you're saying, if what I'm saying has nothing whatsoever to do with what you're saying? Even if we'd ignore that kind of funny flaw in what I'm sure was just a comedic miswording, I do that all the time too, I still fail to see how it's misrepresenting anything. I can't really see any point in the quote of my post, where I'm even trying to represent anything you've said. And if I haven't tried to represent it, it's technically impossible to misrepresent it. Which is why I asked for some specific quotes and explanations in my earlier post, to help me see exactly how you think I've deliberately misrepresented you. If anything, the initial post you suggested was straw man, is more a comment in agreement of what Raze said.

For real though, are you trolling?
Posted By: Delicieuxz

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained


I have no problems with Baldur's Gate III being titled as such and carrying on the series. In fact, it gets me very excited. I think it's a good way to go - providing it's actually Baldur's Gate III and not a D:OS reskin.

However, regarding Torment: Tides of Numenera, the Steam store rating was at Mixed for a a very long time after its release and the game had disappointing sales, showing that people did have some complaints. In fact, there were a lot of complaints. I backed Tides of Numenera on Kickstarter and followed its development and release. People anticipating an indirect sequel to PS:T were very disappointed with it and the criticisms were many. The Steam score for Tides of Numenera only recently passed 70% turning it into a Mostly Positive rating recently.

By the way, one of the big things Tides of Numenera changed that people didn't like is the combat from RTwP to TB. Stuff like that which is fundamental to a series' identity and is responsible for its success and popularity shouldn't be changed - or, otherwise, if it is, the new game should be made its own thing and not a part of the same series.

Torment: Tides of Numenera isn't a direct continuation of PS:T and InXile didn't have the Planescape license and so the game couldn't be in the same universe or have the same lore. It's use of "Torment" in the title isn't really to carry on the brand and it isn't a part of the same series as PS:T. But, it was considered by InXile to be a sort of spiritual successor to PS:T (clearly, InXile meant regarding the philosophical and surreal aspects and not the combat) and that was meant to be conveyed by including "Torment" in the title.

Tides of Numenera is a pretty different game than PS:T and I can see why it didn't satisfy a lot of PS:T's fans, leading to poor reviews and low sales. But, I think that it's a fantastic game on its own and I wish there'd be a sequel to it (though I suspect that's unlikely) or that we'd get more games from the Numenera realm. Maybe it just shouldn't have been billed as a spiritual successor to PS:T and then it would have performed better in sales.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by The Composer
For real though, are you trolling?

Aren't there forum rules against claiming someone is trolling? Anyway, it certainly crosses a line with me so I'm done with you.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by The Composer
For real though, are you trolling?

Aren't there forum rules against claiming someone is trolling?


There's not.

Also, I'm not claiming anything. I'm asking you. Wait... Aren't you doing a classic straw man right now?
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Aren't there forum rules against claiming someone is trolling?

Not specifically, but it does seem to be a good time to remind everybody to keep things good-natured and friendly, thanks.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
and that company never said they were making Fallout 3 as a game that completely ignored the legacy of the first two games.

Also not the case for BG3, as pointed out above, with the rest of Swen's quote.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
So you are creating a strawman here.

Not knowing why you think '3' is unethical doesn't make it a strawman argument. I made a point about numbered series, in reference to a general phenomenon, to a comment about numbers vs subtitles. With no reason given there, and none previously that I recall (I didn't reread the earlier posts to check), I couldn't have misrepresented your argument if I had wanted to.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
Yes a VERY good choice ... if your goal is to falsely lure people to your game.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Aren't there forum rules against claiming someone is trolling? Anyway, it certainly crosses a line with me so I'm done with you.

No, and asking someone if they are trolling is not an accusation.
You've made worse implications in this topic than just questioning whether someone believes what they are posting, or not.




Originally Posted by korotama
The reason some people are upset on here is because there have been statements to the effect that fan expectations are "soaring through to the roof" (made without due clarification)

That was a factual answer to a question about the highest expectations, and nobody has argued that there are no unreasonable expectations, so I'm not sure why any clarification is required.


Originally Posted by korotama
This isn't about making a direct sequel to the Bhaalspawn story

I know. I didn't claim it was, though people have made that argument against using a 3 in the name elsewhere.


Originally Posted by korotama
but whether the legacy of the previous games will be honored as far as lore, history, writing etc.

That is much easier to show than tell, especially since everyone has their own opinion about what honouring / respecting the D&D setting and earlier games means.

There will be more information released about the game 'soon', and people will be able to judge that for themselves.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained

But that game was not carrying any title from a previous game. "Planescape: Torment" and "Torment: Tides of Numenera" are literally two completely separate titles. If T:ToN had instead been titled "Planescape: Torment II" (and assuming WotC allowed this), you can bet anything there would've been a firestorm of anger and protest.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained

But that game was not carrying any title from a previous game. "Planescape: Torment" and "Torment: Tides of Numenera" are literally two completely separate titles. If T:ToN had instead been titled "Planescape: Torment II" (and assuming WotC allowed this), you can bet anything there would've been a firestorm of anger and protest.

A firestorm of anger and protest?
lol, You are realising you are talking about an indie RPG?
Only a few nerds care about that or BG 3 being named Baldurs Gate 3.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained

But that game was not carrying any title from a previous game. "Planescape: Torment" and "Torment: Tides of Numenera" are literally two completely separate titles. If T:ToN had instead been titled "Planescape: Torment II" (and assuming WotC allowed this), you can bet anything there would've been a firestorm of anger and protest.

A firestorm of anger and protest?
lol, You are realising you are talking about an indie RPG?
Only a few nerds care about that or BG 3 being named Baldurs Gate 3.

Everything is relative. Yes the RPG gamer community is a niche group, but relative to the size of that group yes there would've been a lot of anger. Look at the reaction to something in Beamdog's BG1 expansion that some people got angry about. Their raw numbers were not that much, but from a sales perspective the fit that they threw was enough to damage the game's reception.
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Everything is relative. Yes the RPG gamer community is a niche group, but relative to the size of that group yes there would've been a lot of anger. Look at the reaction to something in Beamdog's BG1 expansion that some people got angry about. Their raw numbers were not that much, but from a sales perspective the fit that they threw was enough to damage the game's reception.

I'm surprised to hear that. It's pretty widely accepted that the contingent with forceful opinions often encountered on forums and social media is not just small in number but frequently unrepresentative and not influential. Yes, developers should listen to what they say, but that opinion also needs to be given the appropriate weight. Paying no need at all is potentially reckless but presuming too much importance even more so.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 07:36 PM

That is indubitably true. Neither kanisatha nor I claim to be speaking on behalf of millions of people but there are quite a few people lurking on these boards. I've actually done what Swen has asked of us which is to "spread the words" and got a few friends interested in BG3 (they are not series veterans, mind you). I think you will agree word of mouth is powerful stuff and can help make up for a limited advertising budget. However, making cryptic statements that portray fans in a negative light and then refusing to be more forthcoming about their meaning is a very perplexing decision from an ethical viewpoint. I've worked in businesses where calling the customer crazy for asking questions and withholding information from them out of spite is by far the worst offense that can be committed. Larian can do whatever they like with the game for all I care but perhaps they should refrain from calling upon the franchise fandom to help them promote it in that case. No one likes being used after all, am I right?
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 20/11/19 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Everything is relative. Yes the RPG gamer community is a niche group, but relative to the size of that group yes there would've been a lot of anger. Look at the reaction to something in Beamdog's BG1 expansion that some people got angry about. Their raw numbers were not that much, but from a sales perspective the fit that they threw was enough to damage the game's reception.

I'm surprised to hear that. It's pretty widely accepted that the contingent with forceful opinions often encountered on forums and social media is not just small in number but frequently unrepresentative and not influential. Yes, developers should listen to what they say, but that opinion also needs to be given the appropriate weight. Paying no need at all is potentially reckless but presuming too much importance even more so.

I was quite surprised too when it happened, and initially was sure the effort to damage the game would fail. But they were quite successful in review-bombing the game.

Obviously that's not what I am advocating here with BG3, but at the same time I very strongly believe it is just not right to reboot a franchise (in any media - movies, TV shows, videogames) by telling the fans of the previous entries in that franchise that you don't care about them or their views about what made those previous entries so special to them.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 21/11/19 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by korotama
However, making cryptic statements

The statements were not cryptic.
Are you seriously trying to imply that there are no fans with unreasonable expectations? Or with finite resources, all expectations can be met?
If you are not disputing the factual accuracy of the statement, what exactly is your problem with it?

Originally Posted by korotama
that portray fans in a negative light

Saying we can not do everything that everyone has suggested in no way portrays fans in a negative light.
Larian, as part of our design philosophy, has always started off with unrestricted designs/ideas, and after consideration, prototyping and/or work has been started, some things get scaled back to something more reasonable (and sometimes extra things get added).
Having unreasonable suggestions or expectations is not inherently negative, and obviously someone not familiar with the current design would only have finite resources as a constraint to have a very rough idea of what was reasonable in this case.

Originally Posted by korotama
and then refusing to be more forthcoming about their meaning is a very perplexing decision from an ethical viewpoint.

So all the other people posting in forums and asking questions without a lot of information currently being released is fine, but if the head of the company doesn't immediately react to your question in a forum he isn't actively participating in, that is somehow a personal affront and breach of ethics?

Originally Posted by korotama
I've worked in businesses where calling the customer crazy for asking questions and withholding information from them out of spite is by far the worst offense that can be committed.

That is an extremely uncharitable interpretation of events, and a bizarre assumption of motive, to the point I'm questioning if you are just trolling.



Originally Posted by kanisatha
telling the fans of the previous entries in that franchise that you don't care about them or their views about what made those previous entries so special to them.

This is also an extremely uncharitable interpretation of what was said, and completely ignores the rest of the quote, even after that was pointed out.

If Swen reads this topic, do you think he is likely to reply, or would any reasonable person conclude that with such apparently deliberate miss-characterisations of what he said, that no response would be sufficiency?
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 21/11/19 10:49 PM

Raze, I have no grudge against Mr. Vincke. The man does not interest me in the least. I just want someone who is officially affiliated with the developer to dispel the ambiguity for me. If the statement weren't cryptic, would I have made this thread in the first place? By the way, I see many of you may have missed one detail in particular: the interviewer asked Swen how he was going to meet the expectations that fans of the franchise had laid out for him. This isn't about my expectations or those of a vocal minority on this board! Instead of arguing semantics or trying to smear me as a troll, how hard would it be to follow up on the statement with a quick explanation? Could you please define unreasonable for me? Do you believe that word means anything at all without sufficient context?
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 03:53 AM

Raze is officially affiliated with Larian. The statement isn't cryptic. Swen answered how he was going to meet 'the expectations', and the simple fact is that you can never meet all expectations universally for anything in any field, genre or medium at the same time. Ever.

Originally Posted by korotama
Instead of arguing semantics [...]


This entire thread is based upon arguing semantics. There's a dozen ways to interpret "expectations are soaring through the roof". I'd say it's a simple, basic, common sense of a fact that it's just commenting on that there's a lot of hype for such a beloved franchise getting a sequel, and that there's no way every expectation in the world can be met a 100%. All they can do is their best, and thus they can't reasonably aim to meet every expectation that exists in a total sum.

It really is that simple.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by korotama
I just want someone who is officially affiliated with the developer to dispel the ambiguity for me.

I work for Larian. There is a small Larian employee forum badge under my name (though it's not really obvious that is what it is). EDIT: Forum mods and administrators' names are in different coloured text, as well (originally when the default template was updated that wasn't maintained, but that was fixed).

What ambiguity? As I originally replied:
Originally Posted by Raze
Swen was not referring to the entirety of speculation. The question was specifically about the highest expectations (living up to mild interest for a D&D game isn't a very high bar).
Would you claim no expectations are unreasonable? Or mutually exclusive with other expectations?



Originally Posted by korotama
If the statement weren't cryptic, would I have made this thread in the first place?

Hence my questioning whether you could be trolling (to be fair, miscommunication seemed more likely, other than the mischaracterisation of what was said and that presumption of motive for not answering your question).
You even replied that you "would not claim no expectations are unreasonable", yet conceding the factual accuracy of Swen's reply didn't make it any less 'cryptic'.


Originally Posted by korotama
the interviewer asked Swen how he was going to meet the expectations that fans of the franchise had laid out for him.

Again, the question was about the highest expectations. It is obviously not impossible to live up to some or many expectations, or partly live up to a lot of the expectations, or pretty much completely live up to the basic expectations.


Originally Posted by korotama
Could you please define unreasonable for me?

Define cryptic. Just about everyone else understood the reply, and I would bet most would consider it reasonable.


Originally Posted by korotama
Do you believe that word means anything at all without sufficient context?

Yes. There is a standard definition of the word that should be sufficient in the vast majority of cases.

An example, then: 500+ hours of content for the game. This was mentioned in the Steam forum, based on 100+ hours for D:OS 2, and mention somewhere of early design ideas to have separate regions for each of the races, which you would visit as part of the origin stories.
Even without knowing about the BG3 design (how the number of ways to solve quests, or dialog reactivity based on background or race, etc, compares to D:OS 2) would you consider 5X the amount of content, and 5X the time to do a full playthrough when testing patches, to be reasonable or unreasonable? Or do you need more context for what reasonable means?
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Raze
I work for Larian. There is a small Larian employee forum badge under my name (though it's not really obvious that is what it is)

It is rather easy to miss. Maybe I should make it bigger.

And feature more cheese.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 09:16 AM

My idea of cryptic after going through that interview is addressing the entire fanbase with general statements such as "Sometimes the weather is very good and other times it's very inclement" or "Dogs are man's best friend but some dogs I like better". If part of the interview deals with a game that is in development, I do not see how saying such things helps you promote your game as fans cannot draw any conclusions about it. For what it's worth, the "journalist" conducting the interview dropped the ball because they should have asked their interlocutor to expand upon those thoughts, although I suppose they were just going off a script so there wasn't much journalism involved. Also, to reiterate vometia's thoughts, I find that badge of yours cryptic as well since I could not tell it was the Larian logo until I zoomed way in. Why grayscale of all things?


Quote
Larian is making Baldur's Gate 3 now and Baldur's Gate is such a beloved franchise. How are you going to live up with the fans' expectations?

Swen: I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. For instance, some fans want there to be over 500 hours' worth of content for a single playthrough but our budget simply precludes us from making a game of that magnitude. Nevertheless, we very much appreciate their enthusiasm and efforts to introduce people who aren't big on either D&D or Baldur's Gate to the series and we acknowledge some of their concerns, which will certainly be reflected in BG3.


That's not a real quote of course. That is simply what I would have said if I had been the one addressing each and every fan of the series.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by korotama

Quote
Larian is making Baldur's Gate 3 now and Baldur's Gate is such a beloved franchise. How are you going to live up with the fans' expectations?

Swen: I don't think we can live up to the expectations. I think that's impossible. Those expectations are soaring through to the roof. For instance, some fans want there to be over 500 hours' worth of content for a single playthrough but our budget simply precludes us from making a game of that magnitude. Nevertheless, we very much appreciate their enthusiasm and efforts to introduce people who aren't big on either D&D or Baldur's Gate to the series and we acknowledge some of their concerns, which will certainly be reflected in BG3.


That's not a real quote of course. That is simply what I would have said if I had been the one addressing each and every fan of the series.



This boils down to subjectiveness. If that had been the real statement, you could just as well have another forum user argue that it sounds like he's hanging some fans out for dry, making fun of how ridiculous some user's expectations are. They could argue it would have been less of a professional handling of the question.


Originally Posted by korotama
My idea of cryptic after going through that interview is addressing the entire fanbase with general statements such as "Sometimes the weather is very good and other times it's very inclement" or "Dogs are man's best friend but some dogs I like better".


Those aren't cryptic. Those are general statements of status or subjective opinion. For example, I am a man, I don't like dogs, they're not considered my best friends by a long shot. Doesn't change the statement, as it's a commonly known saying; Recognizing that dogs are generally a very loveable household companion. My opinion doesn't change the truth of the statement, because it's a saying, not a fact.

How interviews go really isn't up for you to judge. Sure, it's ok to want "more details", but here's the thing: You have company procedure. Larian is generally reluctant to release very many details about their projects outside of official statements/releases of media that comes directly from them at their time and leisure. The extreme opposite of this, would be Murray's handling of interviews prior to No Man's Sky's launch, giving answers of features left and right that were within the ambition, but turning out to not be available at launch. Cue backlash.

This sounds like you simply want interviews to provide more "meat to the bone" for us as a player to learn more details about the game. That is possible to some extent to happen in an interview, within reason. If anything, the interview was lacking preparation or insight in asking the right questions, that would allow Swen to give more interesting answers. Which is a skill an experienced games journalist might develop over time, knowing how to ask questions in such a way to ask specifics without 'really' asking specifics. Then again, Baldur's Gate 3 is only in an announced status, there's no rule or reason to expect concrete details or more information yet. You may want it. I certainly want it. You may think, or argue it's been x-months since we heard something last and they should give us something more by now. That's fair. I feel impatient some mornings too, checking Google Alerts if there's anything new yet. It's also only a subjective opinion.

Interviews aren't beholden to any explicit rules to abide in order to meet whatever ambiguous expectations a player/reader might have to get out from it. They're simply a company/freelance journalist inquiring a subject of interest with what they believe might be interesting questions that may lead to interesting answers in order to get an interesting article to draw clicks and readers. That's basically every interview in existence.

We may judge an interview individually and decide whether or not it was a good interview. Ultimately, that will inevitably also be another personal opinion.


Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 02:13 PM

I think it is rather disgraceful that a Larian employee would go so far as to attack posters on this forum with whose views they disagree and even go to the extent of accusing them of trolling. A Larian employee especially should be open to and receptive of alternative points of view and criticism and make every effort to engage those posters in a constructive and positive way.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I think it is rather disgraceful that a Larian employee would go so far as to attack posters on this forum with whose views they disagree and even go to the extent of accusing them of trolling. A Larian employee especially should be open to and receptive of alternative points of view and criticism and make every effort to engage those posters in a constructive and positive way.


Would you say that you're open to and receptive of alternative points of view and criticism, and are you making every effort to engage with those posts in a constructive and positive way? Or are you unfairly disclaiming someone/thing as disgraceful and deem something to be an attack (when it's obviously not)?

Edit: Also, I still await your response to previous questions specifically directed for you, Kanisatha. Is it not disgraceful to accuse someone of doing something considered to be rude, but avoid giving constructive clarification when the accuracy of your accusation is challenged?
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I think it is rather disgraceful that a Larian employee would go so far as to attack posters on this forum with whose views they disagree and even go to the extent of accusing them of trolling.

I didn't attack anyone. Questioning if someone is trolling is not an accusation of trolling, nor is it an attack. I notice you completely skip the part where I said miscommunication was more likely, and the specific comment that that was in response to.

Are you going to claim the statement in question was accurate and an entirely reasonable assumption of motive? Even korotama did not try defending that statement.
Before getting offended on someone else's behalf, try justifying the statement in question, that it is unreasonable to possibly think maybe it was intended to provoke, and not an accurate statement of belief.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
A Larian employee especially should be open to and receptive of alternative points of view and criticism and make every effort to engage those posters in a constructive and positive way.

You mean like engaging in a topic, trying to give explanations, asking questions (even if they are mostly ignored, as The Composer pointed out), etc?
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by kanisatha
I think it is rather disgraceful that a Larian employee would go so far as to attack posters on this forum with whose views they disagree and even go to the extent of accusing them of trolling.

I didn't attack anyone. Questioning if someone is trolling is not an accusation of trolling, nor is it an attack. I notice you completely skip the part where I said miscommunication was more likely, and the specific comment that that was in response to.

Are you going to claim the statement in question was accurate and an entirely reasonable assumption of motive? Even korotama did not try defending that statement.
Before getting offended on someone else's behalf, try justifying the statement in question, that it is unreasonable to possibly think maybe it was intended to provoke, and not an accurate statement of belief.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
A Larian employee especially should be open to and receptive of alternative points of view and criticism and make every effort to engage those posters in a constructive and positive way.

You mean like engaging in a topic, trying to give explanations, asking questions (even if they are mostly ignored, as The Composer pointed out), etc?

The word trolling should never even come from an employee of the organization. So yes, I don't care how you try to spin it, but I consider it highly offensive, something I have never seen on the forum of any other game studio. But furthermore, again as someone from the inside, it is not your place to question what one person said in favor of what some other person said. You should be maintaining neutrality, and if anything only trying to find common ground among the different posters. And if you can't do that, then best to not insinuate yourself into the discussion at all. You were not engaging me or asking for explanations or anything of the sort. You were outright attacking me and impuning me because you didn't like what I had to say. Heck even this post of yous is just a series of passive-aggressive attacks.

And yes, I do stand by all of what I've said. I do question Larian's motives with respect to BG3 and do conider them to be throwing fans of the original BG games like me under the bus. I have every right to see things this way and to express those feelings as a result. The level of Larian fanboyism in this forum is unbelievable. Yes there is some of this in every studio forum, but nowhere have I experienced it being this pervasive and aggressive. Anyone who says even the slightest of negative things about Larian is immediately put upon by some sort of pro-Larian mob.

As for The Composer, I already posted that because they called me a troll they crossed a line for me and I won't be responding to them ever again.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I don't care how you try to spin it

So you can't actually address the point, then?

Originally Posted by kanisatha
and if anything only trying to find common ground among the different posters.

What is the common ground between someone who inaccurately paraphrases a statement and someone who points out the rest of the actual quote proves the paraphrase is inaccurate?
Have you done anything to find common ground?

Originally Posted by kanisatha
You were outright attacking me and impuning me because you didn't like what I had to say.

Are you really that fragile that you consider disagreement or questions an attack?

Originally Posted by kanisatha
And yes, I do stand by all of what I've said. I do question Larian's motives

So you claim rights for yourself that no one else deserves. Questioning your motives gets people shunned, but you can make far more serious implications and anyone who doesn't agree with you is fanboy. If I called that hypocrisy, would that be an attack, as well?
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 07:08 PM

Why should the word trolling not come from an employee.

i mean, you did say that accusation of trolling is against the ruels (apernetly), so who else would be able to make that call than an admin?
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak

i mean, you did say that accusation of trolling is against the ruels (apernetly), so who else would be able to make that call than an admin?


Asking if someone is trolling (or even flat out calling them a troll) isn't any written rule. It's preferred and encouraged to keep a good spirit and positive attitude and treat others in a decent manner. Unfortunately, not everyone handles debate and being disagreed with particularly well.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Anyone who says even the slightest of negative things about Larian is immediately put upon by some sort of pro-Larian mob.


This is how the world works:
If you accuse someone of something, it is your job to provide those accusations with undeniable proof or at the very minimum convincing arguments that takes the whole source accuration's context into account.

If someone provides you with factual, objectively undeniable proof and clarification as to why your accusation is false or holds thin ground, then there's no one else's but your problem if you refuse to evaluate those and be willing to reconsider your accusations. You don't get to start calling names, falsely trying to claim straw man claims or just flat out refuse to reply because your feelings are hurt.

Originally Posted by kanisatha

As for The Composer, I already posted that because they called me a troll they crossed a line for me and I won't be responding to them ever again.


And that's just childish, as well as uncharitably inaccurate, which is undeniable proof that you're simply unwilling to reason, debate or reconsider any opinion of your own after reviewing arguments and quotes that disproves all of the accusations and complaints stated by OP and yourself throughout this thread.


This thread needs to be closed.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 08:12 PM

Im aware of that.
I was referencing a post of his where he said that, which annoyed me because it can be used to shield oneself from criticism
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 22/11/19 08:50 PM


Kanisatha, nobody objects to you having concerns about the BG3 design; there is little information available currently.
Try making an effort to debate in good faith, and that would eliminate most of the replies you claim are attacks. For example:

Originally Posted by The Composer
If someone provides you with factual, objectively undeniable proof and clarification as to why your accusation is false or holds thin ground, then there's no one else's but your problem if you refuse to evaluate those and be willing to reconsider your accusations.

Either the accusation was just hyperbolic (in which case, concede that and state your case reasonably, as if trying to find common ground) or you actually believed it to be accurate (in which case address the rest of the quote or reconsider your accusation).
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by korotama
I just want someone who is officially affiliated with the developer to dispel the ambiguity for me.

I work for Larian. There is a small Larian employee forum badge under my name (though it's not really obvious that is what it is). EDIT: Forum mods and administrators' names are in different coloured text, as well (originally when the default template was updated that wasn't maintained, but that was fixed).

What ambiguity? As I originally replied:
Originally Posted by Raze
Swen was not referring to the entirety of speculation. The question was specifically about the highest expectations (living up to mild interest for a D&D game isn't a very high bar).
Would you claim no expectations are unreasonable? Or mutually exclusive with other expectations?



Originally Posted by korotama
If the statement weren't cryptic, would I have made this thread in the first place?

Hence my questioning whether you could be trolling (to be fair, miscommunication seemed more likely, other than the mischaracterisation of what was said and that presumption of motive for not answering your question).
You even replied that you "would not claim no expectations are unreasonable", yet conceding the factual accuracy of Swen's reply didn't make it any less 'cryptic'.


Originally Posted by korotama
the interviewer asked Swen how he was going to meet the expectations that fans of the franchise had laid out for him.

Again, the question was about the highest expectations. It is obviously not impossible to live up to some or many expectations, or partly live up to a lot of the expectations, or pretty much completely live up to the basic expectations.


Originally Posted by korotama
Could you please define unreasonable for me?

Define cryptic. Just about everyone else understood the reply, and I would bet most would consider it reasonable.


Originally Posted by korotama
Do you believe that word means anything at all without sufficient context?

Yes. There is a standard definition of the word that should be sufficient in the vast majority of cases.

An example, then: 500+ hours of content for the game. This was mentioned in the Steam forum, based on 100+ hours for D:OS 2, and mention somewhere of early design ideas to have separate regions for each of the races, which you would visit as part of the origin stories.
Even without knowing about the BG3 design (how the number of ways to solve quests, or dialog reactivity based on background or race, etc, compares to D:OS 2) would you consider 5X the amount of content, and 5X the time to do a full playthrough when testing patches, to be reasonable or unreasonable? Or do you need more context for what reasonable means?


From the way some of your earlier posts were phrased I was starting to suspect you worked for Larian. It fun to be right. As for the badge, I'm reading this on a smart phone so it's super tiny.

Anyways would you say any of my speculation has been unreasonable or unrealistic?

As for playthough length, that varies so much from person to person, but the average being +500 hours seems way to high. I just guessing from what Sven has said and others have said about DOS2 I'm expecting 100-200 hours, maybe 250 hours tops for slow pokes, although that seems like pushing it. I mean you'd have to really drag it out to get 500 hours in a single playthrough.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by Raze
I work for Larian. There is a small Larian employee forum badge under my name (though it's not really obvious that is what it is)

It is rather easy to miss. Maybe I should make it bigger.

And feature more cheese.


I think this is a good idea, a lot of folks read forums on their phones.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
From the way some of your earlier posts were phrased I was starting to suspect you worked for Larian. It fun to be right.

I was assuming it was common knowledge, or indicated by the username colour (and my email is public, if anyone checks my profile); I've added a custom title to be clearer.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Anyways would you say any of my speculation has been unreasonable or unrealistic?

Nice try biggrin but I couldn't give any hints even if i was closely following the development of BG3.

The aim for BG3 is to have a similar amount of content / gameplay time as D:OS 2.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer

How interviews go really isn't up for you to judge.


Oh really? I beg to differ, especially when the interview is a half-baked attempt to raise awareness about your product without actually providing new information about it and then asking fans to "spread the words". I find it no coincidence that people like kanisatha feel they are being thrown under the bus. That is exactly how I felt when I was making this thread. You raise an interesting point though: if you are reluctant to reveal features about your game for fear of being accused of false advertising down the road, why even agree to answer questions about it? The odds of misspeaking are high if you are under a gag order or NDA. It's safe to assume that tons of individuals are on the prowl for new tidbits on BG3 and then when there's finally a new interview all they get is corporate speak for sorry can't give you the latest scoop on the game yet, also some fans are being ridiculous - don't forget to subscribe, k bye thx!.

Now that we've all accused each other of trolling, I will up the ante by saying Mr. Vincke is trolling fans in these interviews. I've bought some of Larian's products so I am inclined to forgive and forget. As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

Originally Posted by The Composer

This thread needs to be closed.


Didn't want to double post so I'll edit this in. I haven't seen any threads locked on here but perhaps you know of a few examples. In any case, it can't be memory-holed as I have already taken steps to archive it. Perhaps people on other boards would have different things to say on the interview and the posts on this thread, eh? Maybe they would appreciate this sort of discussion too.
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 01:36 PM

I'm half tempted to lock the thread just for an hour or two just to troll everyone.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

That won't help. You and I both know that what will happen is the goalposts will be shifted. No matter how much we get to know about the game, and obviously eventually we will know everything about the game, critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

As far as I am concerned, if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games, then it is a fake and a fraud and an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.
Posted By: Waeress

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 23/11/19 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.

Please don't take it upon yourself to speak for "fans of the original games". It's not appreciated by all other fans of the original games.
I am one, and I don't agree with your view about what the game has to be like to live up to my expectations of a Baldur's Gate game.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
From the way some of your earlier posts were phrased I was starting to suspect you worked for Larian. It fun to be right.

I was assuming it was common knowledge, or indicated by the username colour (and my email is public, if anyone checks my profile); I've added a custom title to be clearer.

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Anyways would you say any of my speculation has been unreasonable or unrealistic?

Nice try biggrin but I couldn't give any hints even if i was closely following the development of BG3.

The aim for BG3 is to have a similar amount of content / gameplay time as D:OS 2.


Damn, I thought my question was subtle enough that it would get past your defences, but you saw right through it, damn. laugh
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Sordak
Id like to know the opinion of everyone on Torment: tides of numenera when it comes to "carrying the title"
Considering thats a completley different universe, different premise, different system and nobody seems to have complained

But that game was not carrying any title from a previous game. "Planescape: Torment" and "Torment: Tides of Numenera" are literally two completely separate titles. If T:ToN had instead been titled "Planescape: Torment II" (and assuming WotC allowed this), you can bet anything there would've been a firestorm of anger and protest.

A firestorm of anger and protest?
lol, You are realising you are talking about an indie RPG?
Only a few nerds care about that or BG 3 being named Baldurs Gate 3.


I would not call Larian Studios BG3 indie in the traditional sense, Stadia would not being using it as a centre piece in their advertizing if it was. Its AA at minium, maybe AAA even depempnding on who you ask.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by korotama
I beg to differ, especially when the interview is a half-baked attempt to raise awareness about your product without actually providing new information about it and then asking fans to "spread the words".

You mean the interview by a Malaysian game site about the new branch studio in Malaysia, where they asked about that studio, the work process, release platforms, advice for indie developers, D:OS 2, Fallen Heroes / DOS: 3 and BG3?


Originally Posted by korotama
if you are reluctant to reveal features about your game for fear of being accused of false advertising down the road, why even agree to answer questions about it?

If you can not accurately summarise what someone has said, or the interview in which it was said, nobody is going to take your speculation on motives seriously (even if it wasn't self evidently ridiculous).


Originally Posted by korotama
sorry can't give you the latest scoop on the game yet, also some fans are being ridiculous - don't forget to subscribe, k bye thx!

You admitted that what he said about some of the highest expectations being unreasonable is literally true, so why are you still complaining about that?

As a general rule, games are announced without a lot of detail. While some games are announced late in the development process, sometimes it can be years with only an occasional bit of news or screenshots, etc. Then information starts being released leading up to the game's release (or sometimes there are delays, engine changes, studio/publisher issues, projects cancelled, etc).
Why are you acting like this is somehow unique to BG3?


Originally Posted by korotama
new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

I doubt very many gaming sites outside Malaysian will be particularly interested in doing an interview about the studio there (it may come up in questions about workflow, etc). If there is an interview specifically about BG3, there should be more information about it. Every interview anyone asks for about other things, where they bring up BG3, is not going to get new information about the game.




Originally Posted by kanisatha
critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

Have you considered the possibility that other people can have opinions different than yours, or that criticism of how you present a position in no way implies that you can not have a position?

Originally Posted by kanisatha
if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games

Seriously? I guarantee it will not look like a 20 year old Infinity Engine game. I'm pretty sure there are a couple differences in 5e, as well.
Feelings are subjective, and everyone will judge for themselves how well it does in terms of the D&D / BG feel.

Originally Posted by kanisatha
And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.

Nobody has tried to shut you up. If you're determined not to be shut up, though, maybe you could answer some of the questions asked earlier that you avoided?
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 05:31 PM

How a game looks and feels and plays has nothing to do with technology per se. It is an obvious and superficial thing to say that technology has advanced in 20 years. Yes we all know this. We all also know that D&D editions have changed since the original BG games. These are trite observations.

The characteristics of the original BG games that govern how a game labeled "Baldur's Gate" looks and feels and plays are such things as: party-based; party size of six; isometric perspective; RTwP combat; single-player focused; a certain art style that is NOT cartoonish and garish; a certain writing style that is serious and somber and somewhat dark; a deep and rich main story, and this story is what the game is about and NOT combat; staying very faithful to D&D rules; staying very faithful to established canon Forgotten Realms lore; etc.

There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 06:41 PM

The trouble with sticking to a formula is that it can become formulaic. It's impossible to please everyone: whether it's a video game, a band doing a new album, a sequel to a film, TV series or anything else there will be lots of people complaining that it's variously "not being true to what made it great" and "being too samey and resting on its laurels".

I've previously used Obsidian being touted as an example of the people who produced the "true" Fallout games and New Vegas was an ARPG simply because Bethsoft foisted it on them. It didn't ring true at the time and lo and behold, their new offering plays pretty much exactly like NV. And then the Divinity series, which has variously been real-time isometric, third-person, strategy, TB isometric: people both inside and outside of Larian have their own preferences but overall they're still Divinity games. Which is really the point, or at least it is for me: if I like what a particular concept has to offer I'll take it in whichever form it's presented. Yeah, I have my particular preferences too, and I'll grumble if they're not met (I'm not a fan of isometric TB, for instance) but unless it's executed in a particularly disagreeable manner then it's not really a priority for me.

Edit: shouldn't write when I'm half-asleep.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 07:59 PM

i sitll dont understand wehre baldurs gate is "somber".
It zigzaggs around a lot.

i want to point this out because i dont realy understand why baldurs gates story gets brought up so much. I think it sticks out from the games of its time, but its not exactly hamlet.
Posted By: Kaspar

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 08:03 PM

I'm still betting on something that returns to the third-person style of Dragon Knight Saga, with some party management in the style of DA:I. To me, the Stadia tie-in/investment is a big factor, and in practice the Stadia box is a console. I suspect we'll see a style of game that is friendly for a 10-foot interface, and I'd bet against turn-based, too.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 24/11/19 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
How a game looks and feels and plays has nothing to do with technology per se. It is an obvious and superficial thing to say that technology has advanced in 20 years. Yes we all know this. We all also know that D&D editions have changed since the original BG games. These are trite observations.

The characteristics of the original BG games that govern how a game labeled "Baldur's Gate" looks and feels and plays are such things as: party-based; party size of six; isometric perspective; RTwP combat; single-player focused; a certain art style that is NOT cartoonish and garish; a certain writing style that is serious and somber and somewhat dark; a deep and rich main story, and this story is what the game is about and NOT combat; staying very faithful to D&D rules; staying very faithful to established canon Forgotten Realms lore; etc.

There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.


The Technology, Edition, and even timeline have advanced a great deal, to shrug that off as trite observation is disingenuous. The interplay of those three points, makes for a very different game.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.

You can not start with a bunch of subjective opinions and end up with an objective formula.
Not everyone has the same opinions about what the core elements of BG 1 and 2 are, or their relative importance.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by kanisatha
How a game looks and feels and plays has nothing to do with technology per se. It is an obvious and superficial thing to say that technology has advanced in 20 years. Yes we all know this. We all also know that D&D editions have changed since the original BG games. These are trite observations.

The characteristics of the original BG games that govern how a game labeled "Baldur's Gate" looks and feels and plays are such things as: party-based; party size of six; isometric perspective; RTwP combat; single-player focused; a certain art style that is NOT cartoonish and garish; a certain writing style that is serious and somber and somewhat dark; a deep and rich main story, and this story is what the game is about and NOT combat; staying very faithful to D&D rules; staying very faithful to established canon Forgotten Realms lore; etc.

There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.


The Technology, Edition, and even timeline have advanced a great deal, to shrug that off as trite observation is disingenuous. The interplay of those three points, makes for a very different game.

Seems you've misunderstood. I wasn't shrugging them off. I was saying those are things everyone knows and agrees on so there is nothing to debate there. Yes, those things will be different in a game being made today.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
The trouble with sticking to a formula is that it can become formulaic. It's impossible to please everyone: whether it's a video game, a band doing a new album, a sequel to a film, TV series or anything else there will be lots of people complaining that it's variously "not being true to what made it great" and "being too samey and resting on its laurels".

I've previously used Obsidian being touted as an example of the people who produced the "true" Fallout games and New Vegas was an ARPG simply because Bethsoft foisted it on them. It didn't ring true at the time and lo and behold, their new offering plays pretty much exactly like NV. And then the Divinity series, which has variously been real-time isometric, third-person, strategy, TB isometric: people both inside and outside of Larian have their own preferences but overall they're still Divinity games. Which is really the point, or at least it is for me: if I like what a particular concept has to offer I'll take it in whichever form it's presented. Yeah, I have my particular preferences too, and I'll grumble if they're not met (I'm not a fan of isometric TB, for instance) but unless it's executed in a particularly disagreeable manner then it's not really a priority for me.

Edit: shouldn't write when I'm half-asleep.

I actually agree with much of what you say here. That's what brings us right back to where all of this discussion started: the name of the game. To restate my point, if you're going to make a new game that significantly deviates from earlier games in a franchise, you should give it a new name, exactly like what Obsidian did by calling their game Fallout: New Vegas, and exactly how Larian itself did with its own franchise by calling their new game Divinity: Original Sin rather than Divinity 3. To have called Divinity: Original Sin Divinity 3 would have been false advertising, in my view.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by kanisatha
There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.

You can not start with a bunch of subjective opinions and end up with an objective formula.
Not everyone has the same opinions about what the core elements of BG 1 and 2 are, or their relative importance.

How is saying the Baldur's Gate games are isometric subjective opinion? It is an observable fact. In forum after forum, when fans of the BG games are asked to list the core characteristics of those games, there is remarkable consensus and consistency on what are those characteristics. The formula of the BG games is very much an observable fact. It is people's reactions to that formula that subjectively vary from person to person, including which characteristics might matter more to them than others and including that people's subjective preferences can change over time.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha

Seems you've misunderstood. I wasn't shrugging them off. I was saying those are things everyone knows and agrees on so there is nothing to debate there. Yes, those things will be different in a game being made today.


Not everyone knows and agrees on a single thing in the entire world. So you can't unfortunately speak on behalf of all other fans on anything. You have full valid rights to your own though.


Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by kanisatha
There is a certain very easily and objectively identifiable formula that makes the original BG games what they are, and as such if BG3 significantly deviates from that formula then logically it is not a BG game.

You can not start with a bunch of subjective opinions and end up with an objective formula.
Not everyone has the same opinions about what the core elements of BG 1 and 2 are, or their relative importance.

How is saying the Baldur's Gate games are isometric subjective opinion? It is an observable fact. In forum after forum, when fans of the BG games are asked to list the core characteristics of those games, there is remarkable consensus and consistency on what are those characteristics. The formula of the BG games is very much an observable fact. It is people's reactions to that formula that subjectively vary from person to person, including which characteristics might matter more to them than others and including that people's subjective preferences can change over time.


I agree. Games should feel and relate to its predecessors in how it feels to play. The details of that is ambiguous and it'd be wrong to say 'everyone thinks this', because I'm in no position to say such a thing. But it's certainly a fair expectation or hope to have, that BG3 won't stray so far away from earlier games that it becomes unrecognizable.

There is one problem with this though. We simply don't know yet. For me, it feels like a waste to pre-emptively get upset about something that isn't something to have opinions yet. How can we to any extent argue and discuss how Baldur's Gate 3 fit in or not in what ever ambiguous details one would focus on, when we don't know what Baldur's Gate 3 looks like gameplay wise yet? That seems a bit unreasonable towards the game's prospect, doesn't it?
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
I actually agree with much of what you say here. That's what brings us right back to where all of this discussion started: the name of the game. To restate my point, if you're going to make a new game that significantly deviates from earlier games in a franchise, you should give it a new name, exactly like what Obsidian did by calling their game Fallout: New Vegas, and exactly how Larian itself did with its own franchise by calling their new game Divinity: Original Sin rather than Divinity 3. To have called Divinity: Original Sin Divinity 3 would have been false advertising, in my view.

I sort of see the point, though IMHO games, sequels and pretty much everything should use names and drop the numbering scheme as implies so many things, many of which are contradictory. Is it a continuation, a rehash, in the spirit of, the next book rather than the next chapter (which is what I sort of meant by continuation)...? Giving it a name might help stop those preconceptions. I tend to adapt after that initial "but that's not what I was expecting" but I can rant about it in the meantime. Then again, no matter what it's called you will get people who will assume and then object forever, e.g. TES:IV Oblivion being lambasted for not being TES:III Morrowind Part II in spite of the fact that it never said it was going to be and the name didn't imply anything other than it being the next Elder Scrolls game.

I'm also thinking that Larian's numbering scheme is... well, it's its own thing. Divinity 2 is really Divinity 3 given that it was the third in the series, and also chronologically; and is it called Divinity 2 or Divinity II or Ego Draconis or Dragon Knight Saga? Then there's the also often overlooked Dragon Commander, which is also part of the franchise and arguably part of the series depending on how you define "series" and classify Dragon Commander, though chronologically it suddenly deviates. And Original Sin which is therefore sort of Divinity 5 except that it's positioned between DC and DD in terms of when it happened, so maybe Divinity -1, or Divinity 0 depending on one's opinion of such things. And let's not get started on Divinity Original Sin II which is not Divinity 2, it's Divinity 6, unless we're going by chronology with DD being the first so it's... I dunno, I've lost track. What it before or after BD? If it was before, maybe it really is Divinity 2, which would make Divinity 2 Divinity 4. My head hurts.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 25/11/19 05:26 PM

That run-down gave me a good giggle, Vometia! Thank you. It's funny because it's true.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 26/11/19 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by kanisatha
I actually agree with much of what you say here. That's what brings us right back to where all of this discussion started: the name of the game. To restate my point, if you're going to make a new game that significantly deviates from earlier games in a franchise, you should give it a new name, exactly like what Obsidian did by calling their game Fallout: New Vegas, and exactly how Larian itself did with its own franchise by calling their new game Divinity: Original Sin rather than Divinity 3. To have called Divinity: Original Sin Divinity 3 would have been false advertising, in my view.

I sort of see the point, though IMHO games, sequels and pretty much everything should use names and drop the numbering scheme as implies so many things, many of which are contradictory. Is it a continuation, a rehash, in the spirit of, the next book rather than the next chapter (which is what I sort of meant by continuation)...? Giving it a name might help stop those preconceptions. I tend to adapt after that initial "but that's not what I was expecting" but I can rant about it in the meantime. Then again, no matter what it's called you will get people who will assume and then object forever, e.g. TES:IV Oblivion being lambasted for not being TES:III Morrowind Part II in spite of the fact that it never said it was going to be and the name didn't imply anything other than it being the next Elder Scrolls game.

Yup, we're pretty much on the same page. I think numbering is ok, and even necessary, for certain types of games where the new game is just a new iteration of the previous games, for example Civilization. Maybe also Final Fantasy. Imagine trying to keep track of which game is which if FF did not have numbers? But for the classic RPG genre in particular, where making the (largely) same game again is generally avoided, numbering should therefore also be avoided, the only exception being for games that are literally direct sequels.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 27/11/19 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Raze

You mean the interview by a Malaysian game site about the new branch studio in Malaysia, where they asked about that studio, the work process, release platforms, advice for indie developers, D:OS 2, Fallen Heroes / DOS: 3 and BG3?

Precisely! As far as I could tell from the video clip, no one was holding a gun to Swen's head forcing him to speak on BG3. I am merely reacting to something he said that came across as disrespectful to me.

Originally Posted by Raze

If you can not accurately summarise what someone has said, or the interview in which it was said, nobody is going to take your speculation on motives seriously (even if it wasn't self evidently ridiculous).

Look, if you don't think there's anything wrong or iffy with the way his statement on fan expectations was worded then, by all means, carry on. Next time have Swen say "over 75% of our fans have an IQ score that is lower than 100". Heck, why not put it on a billboard so people driving by can marvel at the astute observation. It may very well be a factually correct statement but self-evidently pointing that out would make Larian a ridiculous company that is begging people to boycott its products.

Originally Posted by Raze

You admitted that what he said about some of the highest expectations being unreasonable is literally true, so why are you still complaining about that?

As a general rule, games are announced without a lot of detail. While some games are announced late in the development process, sometimes it can be years with only an occasional bit of news or screenshots, etc. Then information starts being released leading up to the game's release (or sometimes there are delays, engine changes, studio/publisher issues, projects cancelled, etc).
Why are you acting like this is somehow unique to BG3?

That sounds like an appeal to the majority. Am I to understand Larian wants to be more like EA, Activision, Blizzard and the lot? Unless I am mistaken you take pride in being an independent (self-made) studio. Regardless, it's not the lack of new info that is bothering me but the implication that fans are somehow disrupting the development process, which you assure us is not the case. I would like to believe you but because of the aforementioned dearth it's hard to get confirmation so I'll just have to wait and see.

Originally Posted by Raze

I doubt very many gaming sites outside Malaysian will be particularly interested in doing an interview about the studio there (it may come up in questions about workflow, etc). If there is an interview specifically about BG3, there should be more information about it. Every interview anyone asks for about other things, where they bring up BG3, is not going to get new information about the game.

Okay, that's a fair point. If you follow the original hyperlink you will see that IGN has tagged and headlined the article as being related to BG3. You could argue it's clickbait in a way.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 27/11/19 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by korotama
As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

That won't help. You and I both know that what will happen is the goalposts will be shifted. No matter how much we get to know about the game, and obviously eventually we will know everything about the game, critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

As far as I am concerned, if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games, then it is a fake and a fraud and an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.


I'm glad we're on the same page here. Personally, I believe you can hold true to the "feel and play" of the original games while taking creative risks. We're just here to remind people the franchise is already well-established and doesn't warrant a radical shift in direction or design. That is what struggling IPs are supposed to do. Also, for the sake of your health and well-being, prithee don't get too worked up or lose sleep over BG3's development. It's not worth it.
Posted By: Eldigan

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 27/11/19 06:52 PM

I'm more than happy for there to be another Baldur's Gate game, but given the statements from the team and their previous work I assume it'll be more like "Divinity : Forgotten Realms" with all that entails. I'll play it regardless, most likely, but it's not going to be satisfying to people who actually wanted something resembling Baldur's Gate.
Posted By: kanisatha

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 27/11/19 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by korotama
As Raze has pointed out, new information is coming soon so hopefully the next interview will not be a repeat of this one.

That won't help. You and I both know that what will happen is the goalposts will be shifted. No matter how much we get to know about the game, and obviously eventually we will know everything about the game, critics like us will be mob-attacked and told we are wrong, we don't know anything, our preferences don't matter, and we need to change our attitude and get with the conformity.

As far as I am concerned, if BG3 does not look and feel and play like the first two games, then it is a fake and a fraud and an insult to the fans of the original games. And I will keep on hammering this point no matter how many people in this forum try to shut me up.


I'm glad we're on the same page here. Personally, I believe you can hold true to the "feel and play" of the original games while taking creative risks. We're just here to remind people the franchise is already well-established and doesn't warrant a radical shift in direction or design. That is what struggling IPs are supposed to do. Also, for the sake of your health and well-being, prithee don't get too worked up or lose sleep over BG3's development. It's not worth it.

smile
Not really caring that much about BG3. I'm quite convinced it'll be a lousy D:OS-esque game pretending to be a BG game. If I'm right, no problem because right now I have a ton of awesome games available to (re)play, from already released games like PoE1 and 2, P:K, BG 1 and 2 EE, IwD EE, DA:I, TW3, Disco Elysium, etc., to games coming in the future such as Realms Beyond, Solasta, Black Geyser, Dark Eye: Book of Heroes, the second Pathfinder game, at least two new games from Obsidian, DA 4, the next Witcher game, Starfield from Bethesda, and on and on. So no shortage of great games for me to play. And if I'm wrong about BG3, I don't have any ego invested in any of these debates so I will happily admit I was wrong and go play the game. It's all a win-win as far as I am concerned.
Posted By: Doomlord

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 28/11/19 02:27 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2jvANh2aEc
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 28/11/19 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Look, if you don't think there's anything wrong or iffy with the way his statement on fan expectations was worded then, by all means, carry on.

If you have any conviction that there is something wrong with the statement, why do you feel the need to repeatedly mischaracterized it?


Originally Posted by korotama
That sounds like an appeal to the majority.

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

Originally Posted by korotama
Am I to understand Larian wants to be more like EA, Activision, Blizzard and the lot? Unless I am mistaken you take pride in being an independent (self-made) studio.

If the entire entertainment industry follows the same general pattern of releasing information leading up to release, pointing out that 3 specific companies do the same thing and somehow this means Larian wants to be more like those companies is ridiculous.

Divine Divinity, Beyond Divinity, Divinity 2, Dragon Commander, D:OS, D:OS 2.
Guess how information was released for each of those games.


Originally Posted by korotama
If you follow the original hyperlink you will see that IGN has tagged and headlined the article as being related to BG3.

It is, though more with the development process than the game itself. The answers to the BG3 questions was information about the design process and scope.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 28/11/19 04:48 PM

Marketing is not Evil.
Man im alos starved for information. I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.
But if game developing is taking its time, you cant release footage too early, if you do, people will get hyped, then it doesnt release and they forget about it.

Yeah tripple A studios do that, everyone does. The only people that dont do this is Kickstarter projects, because they cannot.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/11/19 03:19 AM


Originally Posted by Sordak
Man im alos starved for information.

I felt the same way about Beyond Divinity, but by the time Divinity 2 came around I had developed more of a zen attitude.

Originally Posted by Sordak
I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.

Under ideal circumstances waiting may have been better, but then it would not have been included in the Stadia announcement, and there were already rumours of the game's development and a previous leak (though a third hand source, so it didn't gain much traction at the time) that was starting to get more corroboration. I don't know how long it could have been delayed before there would be nothing left to announce.
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/11/19 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by Sordak
I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.

Under ideal circumstances waiting may have been better, but then it would not have been included in the Stadia announcement, and there were already rumours of the game's development and a previous leak (though a third hand source, so it didn't gain much traction at the time) that was starting to get more corroboration. I don't know how long it could have been delayed before there would be nothing left to announce.

Yeah, my feeling is that this is why they had to announce it when they did: because it was going to be announced for them. A friend of mine was asking about "is Larian doing a new Baldur's Gate?" before any announcement had been made and the games press were already gearing up to make a noise about it, apparently.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/11/19 02:04 PM

Ah yes the Leak from the Spanish site wasnt it?
I remember that beeing posted to 4chan.
Or was that the one where they dog into the site of the teaser and figured out it was BG3 from the filenames?
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/11/19 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Ah yes the Leak from the Spanish site wasnt it?
I remember that beeing posted to 4chan.
Or was that the one where they dog into the site of the teaser and figured out it was BG3 from the filenames?


Nope, the original leak 2018 came from a user on the RPG Codex. The Baldurs Gate File on the Larian website before E3 was also fist discovered there afaik.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Marketing is not Evil.
Man im alos starved for information. I admit, larian probably threw out the announcement a bit too fast.
But if game developing is taking its time, you cant release footage too early, if you do, people will get hyped, then it doesnt release and they forget about it.

Yeah tripple A studios do that, everyone does. The only people that dont do this is Kickstarter projects, because they cannot.


No, it's absolutely not evil, although it is a tool that speaks volumes of its wielder. I beg you to consider the following: If your marketing addresses a widely dispersed global audience, do you base it on the assumption that everyone has exactly the same definition of low, high, good, bad, small, big, short, long etc.? Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:40 PM

Marketing is supposed to instill interrest in the product and sell it.
So i think theyre doing pretty well on taht front
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Raze

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too. Obviously what is common sense to you may not be common sense to anyone else. Semantics aside, industry standards aren't exactly high as far as video game development but luckily there have been efforts by some stellar individuals to raise the bar. For instance, some developers keep a development diary letting fans know what features they can look forward to. It boils down to making development less of a black box and engaging your audience in a way that piques their interest.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.


It really isn't supposed to reveal information. It can reveal some new information, which surely could empower it's actual purpose, which is to obtain public interest and hopefully intent to buy said product. Though there is no rule or requirement for marketing to have to / suppose to reveal something new any time marketing takes place. Neither does showing more of what the viewer already know obfuscate anything.

Have you ever watched a movie trailer? If it reveals too much, isn't it then a bad trailer for basically showing you the movie beforehand? No, the trailer is to build up hype and interest. And often just simply to let potential audiences know that it's coming soon™.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
Marketing is supposed to instill interrest in the product and sell it.
So i think theyre doing pretty well on taht front

Yeah, they're knocking it out of the park. *cough*
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
Originally Posted by korotama
Marketing is supposed to reveal information about your product, not obfuscate it.

Have you ever watched a movie trailer? If it reveals too much, isn't it then a bad trailer for basically showing you the movie beforehand? No, the trailer is to build up hype and interest. And often just simply to let potential audiences know that it's coming soon™.


Yep. Det sjunde inseglet is one of my favorites and the trailer for it shows you a few scenes that take place right before the ending. It was released to critical claim and is considered by many to be a world classic.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
Originally Posted by Raze

Describing reality accurately is not an appeal to anything, except maybe common sense.

There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too. Obviously what is common sense to you may not be common sense to anyone else.


Common sense is the same common sense for everyone. That's where the 'common' bit comes in.

Originally Posted by korotama

For instance, some developers keep a development diary letting fans know what features they can look forward to. It boils down to making development less of a black box and engaging your audience in a way that piques their interest.


Larian has done this frequently with their games. In fact, they even posted 52 updates and 16 FAQ entries about it. So I'm not sure entirely what your argument is; Should Larian already have a full feature-creep list of everything planned for BG3, including a tidied out roadmap about the whole process this early in the process?

Even then, please refer to any single academic or legal source online that makes this a fact beyond opinion, that claims marketing should work a certain way in which you're implying (Of which, to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time understanding the logic of. Sorry!)

I'm personally extremely hyped about Halo Infinite, but I'm not pissing myself over not knowing everything about what that game entails. And that's a year away from release, way less time than BG3.


Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:07 PM

Yep, my argument is that Larian provide as much information to people like me as they humanly can if they are going to charge $60 for it. They don't have to spoil the story but even if they did, I'd still buy it if it was a home run. I had spoiled BG1 and 2 for myself and I still beat them and loved them.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:09 PM

You'll have to patiently wait like the rest of us.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by korotama
There is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Common Sense" too.

There is also a logical fallacy about inaccurately claiming something is a logical fallacy (speaking of semantics).
I wasn't actually relying on common sense to argue anything; I stated demonstrably true statements about reality. If I was using a logical fallacy, you would presumably be able to dispute the content of what I said (again, this is just semantics).


Originally Posted by korotama
Yep, my argument is that Larian provide as much information to people like me as they humanly can if they are going to charge $60 for it.

There will definitely be more information released about the game before it is available for purchase.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:23 PM

Thank you.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer


Even then, please refer to any single academic or legal source online that makes this a fact beyond opinion, that claims marketing should work a certain way in which you're implying (Of which, to be perfectly honest, I have a hard time understanding the logic of. Sorry!)



Will AMA's code of conduct suffice?
Link: http://www.dguth.journalism.ku.edu/AMA-Ethics.pdf
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 10:47 PM

Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 30/11/19 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by The Composer
Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)


Yeah, marketing is a philosophy in its own right so there are different codes of conduct and the legal framework regulating such activities depends on where you do business obviously. Perhaps Larian could shed some light on what guidelines they abide by. Hopefully the industry will begin moving in this direction soon. It never hurts to set an industry standard if you ask me.
Posted By: vometia

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 01/12/19 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by The Composer
Sure would. Nice find btw, is interesting to read.

After having read through, I remain confident however that there's nothing ethically wrong with Larian's marketing. (I can't claim legally, as I am not a legal expert, nor does the document constitute law)

I used to work for DEC. Their marketing is a large part of the reason everyone's response is likely to be "who?" Larian's marketing is not like theirs, thankfully.
Posted By: Buttercheese

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 01/12/19 03:42 PM

Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 03/12/19 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.


I agree 100%
Posted By: NineCoronas

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 06/12/19 05:51 PM

Swen's right, there will always be people with obscene expectations and will be impossible to please, and you should never try to please them all
Posted By: Hamster_Baller

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 09/12/19 06:05 PM

I find his candor refreshing. Typically, you have a dev either claiming they're purely living up to the past, while taking a dump on it, OR they use vague phrases like, "re-imagining" to justify warping the source material.

Videogames as a medium have now been around long enough generations of men have fond childhood memories of games. In this regard, for many men, novelty can never trump nostalgia. The first x is more impactful on a timeline than the Nth x experienced later, even if objectively the latter x is superior to the first experienced. Our brains form engrams which calibrate us to treat what we experience as a baseline, normal. So the biggest RPG fans are liable to find any new rpg game the least distinct.

That said, I'm sure their game will get love. Divinity 2 was beloved enough by fans to get funding pre-release. Part of the goodwill earned by the studio is not bsing. Instead of saying something like, "we need more money" in the Kickstarter pitch, the studio lead goes, ~"we could finish and release with what we have but we want to expand the content in the game and need more funding to do so".

Marketing's wrong. Avoiding concrete definitions in favor of nice-sounding evasions is not endearing to the masses. Just tell the truth, do good, and people will like you. In this regard, Larian has been doing well, having fun, and made fans for this positive corporate spirit.

Personally, I liked the Baldur's Gates games (and Icewind Dale and Planescape) but do not hold them up as the best rpgs which have ever come out (would place FNV and ME2 in that role). Barring some radical deviation from past trends, I'm sure Larian will deliver on a thoroughly enjoyable game worthy of the Baldur's Gate legacy smile
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 09/12/19 06:15 PM

[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.
Posted By: The Composer

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 09/12/19 08:18 PM

There's nothing mysterious about it. Just pointing out how much time the tiniest things in a development can take. I've spent 5 hours writing one dialogie with one companion for one act, and it's not even certain players would even ever touch that companion. Swen's saying that there's a very niche scenario where players will even get to experience what he's spent hours on considering, but even if mostly unseen, it still has to be made. #whyrpgstaketimetomake

It's like detailed terrain texturing and small clutter. You don't really think about it when it's there, but you notice it immediately if it's not. It's what I personally call the "unappreciated work", because few ever notices it. Such as that particular variation of a situation that ONLY occurs if you have two specific companions in your party. That's all there is to it, a little BG3 tease presumably with hints at attention to detail.
Posted By: Hawke

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 09/12/19 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0
that's my screenshot you stole there. wink
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 10/12/19 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hawke
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
[Linked Image]

Interesting tweet from Sven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0
that's my screenshot you stole there. wink


I prefer to think of it as salvage. 😁
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 28/12/19 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Haven't read the whole thread, so pardon me if it's been said already.

Anywho, as someone who's been an active part of the BG fandom for many years, I can just say that this fandom is a fickle bunch with some very very nasty and over-demanding people in it. I can perfectly understand Swen's pov and support it. Any person with a modicum of intelligence should be able to realise that BG left some biiiiig shoes to fill, so coming out as a dev and trying to set realistic standards is imo the right way to go. BG3 is made by entirely different people than the rest of the franchise, on a different continent in a different era of gaming. Of course it's gonna be a departure from the series. Anyone who expects/demands else is delusional.

The only demand fans can make, is that the game is gonna be entertaining. How that form of entertainment is gonna work out leaves to be expected. I for one am looking forward to what Larian can bring to the table.


Sorry for necroposting but your insight triggered a watershed moment in my view on video game development. I now realize corporations are my best friend and I should never cast doubt on their motives, intentions or actions lest I indulge the delusional facets of my personality. This snippet of old-school German wisdom is just what I needed. Cheers, mate!
Posted By: Buttercheese

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/12/19 09:53 AM

Sure dude, if that's the message you wanna take from my post. Four-ears model and all that jazz.
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/12/19 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Sure dude, if that's the message you wanna take from my post. Four-ears model and all that jazz.

I try not to read too much into a single post but sometimes mood swings get the better of me. I may have given you the straw man treatment for which I apologize. This board brings together people from all walks of life including hard-core douchebags like me (I have to live up to my reputation) who are reluctant to get on board the hype train before there is a showcase of basic gameplay. I was born and raised in a relatively high-trust society so normally I'd be inclined to take Larian's word for it when they say things like "we're making BG3 with a lot of love for what came before" (not a 100% accurate quote, mind you) but my personal experience with most for-profit companies both as a customer and an employee has been nothing short of a train wreck. Let's just say I'm not a fan of (neo)liberal economics and how it affects the average Joe's life whether it's home ownership, healthcare, wages, family or even morality. If you don't fight for your hard-won rights or privileges, you lose them, simple as that. If you have Marx on your shelf, you know what I'm talking about. Der Klassenkampf is not a thing of the past but woven into the fabric of human society.
Posted By: Buttercheese

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/12/19 07:57 PM

Apology accepted. Don't worry about it. I don't really come to a video game forum to discuss the deeper meanings of politics and social issues tho ^^'
Posted By: korotama

Re: Swen On Fan Expectations For Baldur's Gate 3 - 29/12/19 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Buttercheese
Apology accepted. Don't worry about it. I don't really come to a video game forum to discuss the deeper meanings of politics and social issues tho ^^'

That's okay. I was only filling you in on some of the things that led me to create this thread.
#it'sokaytobegerman
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