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Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1?

Posted By: SorcererVictor

Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 10:26 AM

Necromancy in all old school RPG's are great. Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, hordes of summons(...) 5e already nerfed a lot necromancers. You no longer has spells like wail of the banshee. Finger of death no longer OHKills the enemy. And high tier magic has his usage far more limited BUT be a necro on 5e still possible

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Animate%20Dead

Both, neverwinter nights 1 and neverwinter nights 2 had a only one summon limit BUT the most popular mods fixes this problems. Spell fixes ( https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/script/spell-fixes-and-improvements ) makes the spells including animate dead more pnp like and warlock reworked makes warlock more pnp like ( https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/warlock-reworked-102g ) fixing the most nerfed class on TT adaptations ever.

PF:KM already gave a lot of freedom to the players. The new pathfinder will also include a option to become a lich and there are rumors that Witches and Sorcerers will also be able to become Vampires(not confirmed)

At moment, i an playing Gothic 2 with the returning addon. Summons on base gothic 2 are too powerful BUT instead of hard capping the summons, they have a cost in mana to maintain, not only to summon.You can also learn demoniac language to read powerful grimoires like necronomicon and learn a skill who allows you to use your own lifeforce instead of only mana to maintain your army of undeads/demons.
Posted By: Erwin Smith

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 02:09 PM

I would like to create a Necromancer with an Imp familiar
Magic that deals with death, summon skeletons, resurrect dead enemies to fight by your side etc.. I miss that class in recent RPG games frown
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Erwin Smith
I would like to create a Necromancer with an Imp familiar
Magic that deals with death, summon skeletons, resurrect dead enemies to fight by your side etc.. I miss that class in recent RPG games frown


Only Chain Pact Warlocks can get Imp Familiars in 5e. Necromancers will have to settle for a fiendish rat.
Posted By: Maxxgold

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by Erwin Smith
I would like to create a Necromancer with an Imp familiar
Magic that deals with death, summon skeletons, resurrect dead enemies to fight by your side etc.. I miss that class in recent RPG games frown


Only Chain Pact Warlocks can get Imp Familiars in 5e. Necromancers will have to settle for a fiendish rat.



What about a fiendish hamster? smile
Posted By: CyberianK

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 02:58 PM

In 5e P&P they are very strong because you can run around with multiples zombies or skeletons put into full plates and equipped with Greatswords (usually they might not be proficient depending on DM decision). Plus also use them as suicide bombers and combined with other spell schools.
A Level 6 Wizard of Necromancer school can run around with 8 Zombies if freshly raised (4 spell uses with Recovery) or 14 if built up and renewed over multiples days.
For a level 11 Wizard these numbers are already 42 and 62 when all spell slots 3+ are just used for Animate dead. That makes it clear there have to be limits in the game or the spell handled totally different.

Also its a bit strange how the environment is supposed to react when a guy walks around the city being followed by 16 Zombies.
As a DM I can make that happen but its tough in a game.
That said my players would never do it anyway.

In a group its often a bit lame having followers or long term summons as you kind of steal the role of the fighters in the group was especially the case with OP druids or even Summoner special classes in 3rd edition. In a game its easily OP when the disadvantages of said spells like you would have as a necromancer are not fully employed by the system.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 04/03/20 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by CyberianK
(...)

In a group its often a bit lame having followers or long term summons as you kind of steal the role of the fighters in the group was especially the case with OP druids or even Summoner special classes in 3rd edition. In a game its easily OP when the disadvantages of said spells like you would have as a necromancer are not fully employed by the system.


In P&P, i generally simplify the rules. Example, if i have 30 skeletons, and each one has 50% of chance to hit(need to roll 10), i assume that 15 oi then hit and they dealt average damage. To not spend minutes calculating each one... As for stealing the roles of fighters, what if the group has no fighters?

PS : Necros on 3.5e had OHK spells like Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee and could have far more powerful creatures than zombies and skeletons...

IMO on computer games, the games with the best necromnacers are :
- Arcanum
- Pathfinder Kingmaker
- Diablo 2
- Might & Magic VIII
- Mount & Blade - Phantasy Calradia mod
- Gothic 2 - Returning addon
- BG1/2 (non EE)

This is what a necromancer able to cast circle 3 spells can do on g2-returning. Except by the dark mist(circle 6 - in scroll), i only casted circle 3 spells.

Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 05/03/20 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by CyberianK
(...)

In a group its often a bit lame having followers or long term summons as you kind of steal the role of the fighters in the group was especially the case with OP druids or even Summoner special classes in 3rd edition. In a game its easily OP when the disadvantages of said spells like you would have as a necromancer are not fully employed by the system.


In P&P, i generally simplify the rules. Example, if i have 30 skeletons, and each one has 50% of chance to hit(need to roll 10), i assume that 15 oi then hit and they dealt average damage. To not spend minutes calculating each one... As for stealing the roles of fighters, what if the group has no fighters?

PS : Necros on 3.5e had OHK spells like Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee and could have far more powerful creatures than zombies and skeletons...

IMO on computer games, the games with the best necromnacers are :
- Arcanum
- Pathfinder Kingmaker
- Diablo 2
- Might & Magic VIII
- Mount & Blade - Phantasy Calradia mod
- Gothic 2 - Returning addon
- BG1/2 (non EE)

This is what a necromancer able to cast circle 3 spells can do on g2-returning. Except by the dark mist(circle 6 - in scroll), i only casted circle 3 spells.



A Thassalion Gluttony (Necromamcy) Wizard Lich will blow all the other Necromamcers way when Wrath of the Righteous comes out.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 05/03/20 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Maxxgold
Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by Erwin Smith
I would like to create a Necromancer with an Imp familiar
Magic that deals with death, summon skeletons, resurrect dead enemies to fight by your side etc.. I miss that class in recent RPG games frown


Only Chain Pact Warlocks can get Imp Familiars in 5e. Necromancers will have to settle for a fiendish rat.



What about a fiendish hamster? smile


Maybe
Posted By: Ignatius

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 06/03/20 07:13 AM

Isn't the follower count limited to two though? Does that include summoned creatures? Otherwise, their are no artificial limitations on summoning in 5e besides the Concentration mechanic.
Posted By: CyberianK

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 06/03/20 08:39 AM

Animate Dead (Zombie/Skeleton) or Create Undead (Ghoul) do not count as followers and theres no limit mentioned anywhere except the number of spell slots available.
Also the spell specifically mentions maintaining control over 4/3 undead per slot so limit can't be 2.

Numbers get pretty insane at higher levels that said the value of 100 zombies is limited for a lvl 13+ wizard.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Animate%20Dead#content
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard:necromancy

As for higher level summons, Animate Object is pretty powerful but its only temporary and you can have only one as its concentration (summon monster is concentration as well now):
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Animate%20Objects#content
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 06/03/20 09:00 AM

well they better have this in then

for whta tis worth WotR s gonna have you turn into a lich and raise Boss enemies as pawns, shits gonna be pretty cool
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 09/03/20 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
well they better have this in then

for whta tis worth WotR s gonna have you turn into a lich and raise Boss enemies as pawns, shits gonna be pretty cool



OMG... That is so epic. Any source of that?

And sorry for the time needed to answer. Din't saw my own thread and lost my thread...
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 09/03/20 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Sordak
well they better have this in then

for whta tis worth WotR s gonna have you turn into a lich and raise Boss enemies as pawns, shits gonna be pretty cool



OMG... That is so epic. Any source of that?

And sorry for the time needed to answer. Din't saw my own thread and lost my thread...



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2749839

The kick starter is running out of time so I suggest pledging ASAP.

Bonus more intel on the Angel Mythic Path. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2779637

Also for Mythic Paths there a Gold Dragon (improved Bab, your a Dragon, you can summon Dragons), Aeon (lay judgements on folks, time travel to change the past, compared to a mix of Judge Dread and Merlin), Azata (7th Level Spell casting, a Havok Dragon Companion, kind of a Celestial CG Nature Bard), Swarm-That-Walks (your literally a Swarm of Hungry Vengeful locults that spread by eating their enemies, can eat their way into enemies to control them, and other creepy awesome scary shit), Demon (You take on Aspects of Demons when you rage, you summon demons, can turn into different demons, do you control your rage or give into it, increasing chance of losing control when you rage the longer you rage), Legendary Mortal (kind of a secret what these get).
Posted By: Nyanko

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 09/03/20 11:57 PM

DOS2 already has the necromancer with summons, like the bone spider. So yeah, they might restrict the number of summons though cause it might be difficult to handle at high level and slow combat considerably.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 10/03/20 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nyanko
DOS2 already has the necromancer with summons, like the bone spider. So yeah, they might restrict the number of summons though cause it might be difficult to handle at high level and slow combat considerably.


Concurrent turns, make all of then act in a single round. But i din't liked much necromancy on dos2. Not only by the fact that you can only have one summon, the cooldown and the progression being only bigger numbers are huge flaws for me.

On gothic 2 - returning (russian addon), you have the following creatures to summon as a necromancer(Xardas apprentice). Water mages and Fire magicians has different summons
Circle 1 - Weak skeleton
Circle 2 - Zombie - Slow, deal little damage but very resistant
Circle 3 - Skeleton warrior with weapon proficiency and armor
Circle 4 - Demon - At start, only a lesser demon but giving demon essences allow you to create even archdevils
Circle 5 - Army of darkness. It raises 3 skeleton warriors and one skeleton magician with the circle 3 spell Spear of Darkness
Circle 6 - No summoning spells on circle 6 but black mist is one of the best AOE spells...

Note that to summon the demon, you need to learn demonology and preferentially demonic language too.

Pathfinder Kingmaker has a similar progression. Summon monster IX can summon Thanadaemons and summon monster I can summon only weak monsters...

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2749839

The kick starter is running out of time so I suggest pledging ASAP.

Bonus more intel on the Angel Mythic Path. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2779637

Also for Mythic Paths there a Gold Dragon (improved Bab, your a Dragon, you can summon Dragons), Aeon (lay judgements on folks, time travel to change the past, compared to a mix of Judge Dread and Merlin), Azata (7th Level Spell casting, a Havok Dragon Companion, kind of a Celestial CG Nature Bard), Swarm-That-Walks (your literally a Swarm of Hungry Vengeful locults that spread by eating their enemies, can eat their way into enemies to control them, and other creepy awesome scary shit), Demon (You take on Aspects of Demons when you rage, you summon demons, can turn into different demons, do you control your rage or give into it, increasing chance of losing control when you rage the longer you rage), Legendary Mortal (kind of a secret what these get).


OMG... That is so epic. kingmaker already has one of the best necromancies ever. It would be so amazing. If has corpse only skills and vampirism it will gonna be perfect...

Thanks a lot for your answer.
Posted By: Omegaphallic

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 10/03/20 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko
DOS2 already has the necromancer with summons, like the bone spider. So yeah, they might restrict the number of summons though cause it might be difficult to handle at high level and slow combat considerably.


Concurrent turns, make all of then act in a single round. But i din't liked much necromancy on dos2. Not only by the fact that you can only have one summon, the cooldown and the progression being only bigger numbers are huge flaws for me.

On gothic 2 - returning (russian addon), you have the following creatures to summon as a necromancer(Xardas apprentice). Water mages and Fire magicians has different summons
Circle 1 - Weak skeleton
Circle 2 - Zombie - Slow, deal little damage but very resistant
Circle 3 - Skeleton warrior with weapon proficiency and armor
Circle 4 - Demon - At start, only a lesser demon but giving demon essences allow you to create even archdevils
Circle 5 - Army of darkness. It raises 3 skeleton warriors and one skeleton magician with the circle 3 spell Spear of Darkness
Circle 6 - No summoning spells on circle 6 but black mist is one of the best AOE spells...

Note that to summon the demon, you need to learn demonology and preferentially demonic language too.

Pathfinder Kingmaker has a similar progression. Summon monster IX can summon Thanadaemons and summon monster I can summon only weak monsters...

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2749839

The kick starter is running out of time so I suggest pledging ASAP.

Bonus more intel on the Angel Mythic Path. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2779637

Also for Mythic Paths there a Gold Dragon (improved Bab, your a Dragon, you can summon Dragons), Aeon (lay judgements on folks, time travel to change the past, compared to a mix of Judge Dread and Merlin), Azata (7th Level Spell casting, a Havok Dragon Companion, kind of a Celestial CG Nature Bard), Swarm-That-Walks (your literally a Swarm of Hungry Vengeful locults that spread by eating their enemies, can eat their way into enemies to control them, and other creepy awesome scary shit), Demon (You take on Aspects of Demons when you rage, you summon demons, can turn into different demons, do you control your rage or give into it, increasing chance of losing control when you rage the longer you rage), Legendary Mortal (kind of a secret what these get).


OMG... That is so epic. kingmaker already has one of the best necromancies ever. It would be so amazing. If has corpse only skills and vampirism it will gonna be perfect...

Thanks a lot for your answer.


Your welcome!

Did you say Vampires? Will 5 different Dhampirs plus alternate traits and feats and an Dhampir Archetype do?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2761121

Plus you can build your Lich a whole bunch of ways. Gluttony Wizard Lich (two bonus Necromancy Spells slots per level), Death Knight Style Lich (Lich Cavalier), Unholy Lich (Negative Energy Channeling Death Cleric Lich), Irony Lich (Lich Paladin), Hagbound Lich (Witch Archetype that turns you into a Hag by level 20, plus being a Lich), Dirge Singer Lich (Necromatic Bard Archetype basically), Undead Sorcerer Lich, Blight Druid Lich.

Or go the other way with a Gluttony or Necromancer Wizard Angel, still a very powerful Necromancer with 10th level spells and cleric magic. Okay Lich is a better fit.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will necromancy be GREAT on BG3? Like on BG2/1? - 10/03/20 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Nyanko
DOS2 already has the necromancer with summons, like the bone spider. So yeah, they might restrict the number of summons though cause it might be difficult to handle at high level and slow combat considerably.


Concurrent turns, make all of then act in a single round. But i din't liked much necromancy on dos2. Not only by the fact that you can only have one summon, the cooldown and the progression being only bigger numbers are huge flaws for me.

On gothic 2 - returning (russian addon), you have the following creatures to summon as a necromancer(Xardas apprentice). Water mages and Fire magicians has different summons
Circle 1 - Weak skeleton
Circle 2 - Zombie - Slow, deal little damage but very resistant
Circle 3 - Skeleton warrior with weapon proficiency and armor
Circle 4 - Demon - At start, only a lesser demon but giving demon essences allow you to create even archdevils
Circle 5 - Army of darkness. It raises 3 skeleton warriors and one skeleton magician with the circle 3 spell Spear of Darkness
Circle 6 - No summoning spells on circle 6 but black mist is one of the best AOE spells...

Note that to summon the demon, you need to learn demonology and preferentially demonic language too.

Pathfinder Kingmaker has a similar progression. Summon monster IX can summon Thanadaemons and summon monster I can summon only weak monsters...

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by Omegaphallic

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2749839

The kick starter is running out of time so I suggest pledging ASAP.

Bonus more intel on the Angel Mythic Path. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2779637

Also for Mythic Paths there a Gold Dragon (improved Bab, your a Dragon, you can summon Dragons), Aeon (lay judgements on folks, time travel to change the past, compared to a mix of Judge Dread and Merlin), Azata (7th Level Spell casting, a Havok Dragon Companion, kind of a Celestial CG Nature Bard), Swarm-That-Walks (your literally a Swarm of Hungry Vengeful locults that spread by eating their enemies, can eat their way into enemies to control them, and other creepy awesome scary shit), Demon (You take on Aspects of Demons when you rage, you summon demons, can turn into different demons, do you control your rage or give into it, increasing chance of losing control when you rage the longer you rage), Legendary Mortal (kind of a secret what these get).


OMG... That is so epic. kingmaker already has one of the best necromancies ever. It would be so amazing. If has corpse only skills and vampirism it will gonna be perfect...

Thanks a lot for your answer.


Your welcome!

Did you say Vampires? Will 5 different Dhampirs plus alternate traits and feats and an Dhampir Archetype do?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/2761121

Plus you can build your Lich a whole bunch of ways. Gluttony Wizard Lich (two bonus Necromancy Spells slots per level), Death Knight Style Lich (Lich Cavalier), Unholy Lich (Negative Energy Channeling Death Cleric Lich), Irony Lich (Lich Paladin), Hagbound Lich (Witch Archetype that turns you into a Hag by level 20, plus being a Lich), Dirge Singer Lich (Necromatic Bard Archetype basically), Undead Sorcerer Lich, Blight Druid Lich.

Or go the other way with a Gluttony or Necromancer Wizard Angel, still a very powerful Necromancer with 10th level spells and cleric magic. Okay Lich is a better fit.


That is ultra amazing. I have heard that you can also become a DEMON LORD... I wonder what type of enemies would you face, Spawn of Rovagug was the hardest boss that i fought in a RtWP CRPG. KLAUTH for nwn1 is a piece of cake compared to the spawn of rovagug. I had to fight him 3 times to learn details about him and create 2 custom mercenaries only to try to deal with him and barely won with only my MC and 2 companions alive...
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