Larian Studios

Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy.

Posted By: SorcererVictor

Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 03:55 PM

Come on. We already have 5451684153498416987461*10²³ games copying the magic from WoW. We already have sword coast legends and DDO. We don't need another game with this boring mechanic that makes no sense.

According to a user on rpg codex "Fire bolt ability seemed like it was on some sort of timer in the demo. He used it before combat and then couldn’t use it when he needed it." https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...etric-folks.127856/page-477#post-6577730

And that is AWFUL. D&D should use a vancian magic system and spell slots. If i wanna spend all day casting eldricht blast or if i wanna use all of my cantrips, it should be my choice. Not the game artificially forcing me into a boring rotation. All masterpiece CRPG's has no cooldowns. Baldur's Gate 1/2? No cooldowns. NWN1/2? No cooldowns. Hell, even mmos, Ultima Online has no cooldowns and is by far the best MMO. Spells has a chance of failure impact karma, require reagents but has no artificial limitations. Runescape tried to copy the cooldown based system from wow and now everyone plays Old School Runescape who has no CDs.

I confess that i after declarations like "missing not work" and "spell slots are not intuitive" had no hope for BG3. But wishlisted the game when i saw the gameplay and all things that only a mage hand can do BUT if there are cooldowns or endless number inflation based progression, i will never purchase.
Posted By: Nobody_Special

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 03:59 PM

Firebolt is a cantrip and be used every round.
Posted By: Schuesseled

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 04:46 PM

I believe the weapon skills they've added in, pin down for example can't be used every round, but spells seem to work as they would in pen and paper with spell slots.
Posted By: Waeress

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 05:05 PM

Looking at the demo he couldn't use firebolt because he had just cast grease that turn. Not because he cast firebolt before the battle.
He said something that sounded like it was because he used it before battle, but firebolt wasn't greyed out until after he cast grease; and that makes much more sense. So I think he just didn't say the correct thing.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Schuesseled
I believe the weapon skills they've added in, pin down for example can't be used every round, but spells seem to work as they would in pen and paper with spell slots.


Less awful but the ideal would be no CDs...
Posted By: AnonySimon

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 06:01 PM

Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.



Do anything BUT cooldown; Put reagents, limits to 3 short rests in between a long rest or something similar but cooldowns are the WORST, most immersion breaking mechanic and should't exist.

PS : WLKs only regain spells up to circle 5 in a short rest.
Posted By: Cirolle

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by AnonySimon


I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.


If those were my choices, I would much prefer they came back after each fight. Standing around for 5 minutes in a computer games seems really annoying.
Although, if they allow us to cheese combat like in DOS2, then it becomes a bit pointless, since you could just go and kill one enemy, run away, go back into the fight and kill another etc etc.
Full Warlock cheese party for run.
Posted By: AnonySimon

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Normally, I would be entirely against cooldowns. But in D&D 5e, there are MANY abilities that are balanced by the fact that they are recovered not by long rests (sleeping for 8+ hours), but by short rests (1 hour).

I would not be against having short rest abilities (including the Warlock spell slots) recover after every combat (either automatically or with say a 1-5 minute real-time cooldown.

The Warlock in particular is balance around the whole short rest mechanic; Warlocks have almost NO spell slots, but make it up for being able to recover ALL their spell slots with a short rest. If they throw out the short rest as a mechanic, and force Warlock to only regain their spell slots with a long rest, it will severely harm the class.

And Warlock is not alone. There are many classes that have features that rely upon the short rest mechanic.

So if they get rid of the short rest mechanic and don't implement a cool down system of some sort, it will result in the 5 minute adventuring day; which in my opinion is worse than a cool down mechanic.



Do anything BUT cooldown; Put reagents, limits to 3 short rests in between a long rest or something similar but cooldowns are the WORST, most immersion breaking mechanic and should't exist.

PS : WLKs only regain spells up to circle 5 in a short rest.


If you are talking about the Warlock's Mystic Arcanum feature, those DO NOT use spell slots. The Warlock ONLY has spell slots upto 5th level spells, which it explicitly states that they "regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest" according to the Player's Handbook, pg 107.
Posted By: Doomlord

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 08:40 PM

Just keep it to the core rules, spell per day. All will be well.

-Doom
Posted By: Gmazca

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Doomlord
Just keep it to the core rules, spell per day. All will be well.

-Doom


The point is that core rules state that Warlocks replenish spell slots on short rest, not "per day." And as others have stated, there are other class specific abilities that are balanced around the short rest mechanic.

SorcererVictor offered the best solution imo. Let the party short rest a limited amount of times between long rests. This seems like an elegant solution to me. There could be a risk for random encounters during short rests to make it a bit riskier.
Posted By: Schuesseled

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 09:17 PM

They've confirmed in an article that there is not going to be a short rest feature. In the gameplay at one moment you can see gale has the arcane recovery ability on his toolbar which can be used outside of combat to restore spells and all characters have a regain health ability., presumably these have limited uses between rests (long).

It would seem likely the warlock has something similar to restore his spells, presumably usually more often than arcane recovery.
Posted By: Nobody_Special

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 09:22 PM

Towards the end of the gameplay reveal. The third or fourth question asked was about regaining spells. Swen said after a long rest.

@1:42:47

Posted By: Tuco

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 09:26 PM

Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Tuco
Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.


The problems with cooldowns :
1 - MAkes no sense. Except in few ocasions. Red Orchestra machine guns overheating and you needing to wait cooldown or change the barrel is the unique exception
2 - They homogenize the combat into the same rotation spam
3 - They make you focus more in your action bar and less in the action. You are trying to use the max DPS rotation instead of figuring out what spells are best for the situation
4 - They break my immersion
5 - People only accept this BS on RPG's. The new contra added CDs and everyone hates it(with reason)
6 - They slow down the gameplay
7 - They make character progression less impactful.

I don't see a single vantage of this mechanic.
Posted By: Maldurin

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 11:28 PM

I dont need CD,s in BG III but saying there is no point to them in General
is ridicolus. CD has obvious advantages such like beeing forced
to use a clever variation of Spells and not just bursting Everything
with spamming the highest dps Spell. They also punish you for
beeing careless when it comes to the use of Crowd Control
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 05/03/20 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
Aside for the fact that I find an aprioristic hate for cooldowns a bit ridiculous in principle (there's nothing about a "cooldown-based" system that is inherently worse), I'm not sure why this is even a question when it's D&D we are talking about.
D&D doesn't use cooldowns. It has item charges and limited numbers of uses per day.


The problems with cooldowns :
1 - MAkes no sense. Except in few ocasions. Red Orchestra machine guns overheating and you needing to wait cooldown or change the barrel is the unique exception
2 - They homogenize the combat into the same rotation spam
3 - They make you focus more in your action bar and less in the action. You are trying to use the max DPS rotation instead of figuring out what spells are best for the situation
4 - They break my immersion
5 - People only accept this BS on RPG's. The new contra added CDs and everyone hates it(with reason)
6 - They slow down the gameplay
7 - They make character progression less impactful.

I don't see a single vantage of this mechanic.

I find the almost entirety of your list a bunch of completely made-up, arbitrary and baseless claims,
Still, it doesn't really matter in the end, because D&D is simply not a cooldown-based system, so this puts an end to any irrational concern about it.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Maldurin
(...)
with spamming the highest dps Spell. They also punish you for (...)l


Did you played a SINGLE game without cooldowns? Not necessarily old school RPG's. On Dragon's Dogma, most MAgick Bow skills are situational. ricochet hunter for eg can be deadly on CQB vs living armor but useless in a open field VS a thunder dragon.


Originally Posted by Tuco
(...)
I find the almost entirety of your list a bunch of completely made-up, arbitrary and baseless claims,
Still, it doesn't really matter in the end, because D&D is simply not a cooldown-based system, so this puts an end to any irrational concern about it.


Are not baseless claims. All games praised by immersion like Gothic 1/2 has no CDs, all games praised by the combat like Dark Souls and Dragon's Dogma has no CDs. And despite D&D not having CDs, some D&D adaptaions like Dungeons & Dragons Online and Sword Coast LEgends has it. Only RPG games accept this BS mechanic. Contra: Rogue Corps flopped and one reason is the cooldowns on weapons.
Posted By: Doomlord

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 01:55 AM

I think cool downs in some game are fine, and Im ok with that. With that being said however, if its a Dungeons and Dragons game , excluding ( Neverwinter online and DDO ) they should always keep it faithful to the core rules, Like Bg 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 & 2.

Those were faithful as far as I could tell. So if its natural abilities, spells per days whatever it is , keep it true to the PH , DM guide and I think it will be ok.

-Doom
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Doomlord
I think cool downs in some game are fine, and Im ok with that. With that said however, if its a Dungeons and Dragons game , excluding ( Neverwinter online and DDO ) that should always keep it faithful to the core rules, Like Bg 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 & 2.

Those were faithful as far as I could tell. So if its natural abilities, spells per days what ever it is , keep it true to the PH , DM guide and I think will be ok.

-Doom


Except in the case of a machine gun overheating, i can't find a single case where CDs makes any sense.

PS : DDO, SCL and Neverwinter mmo aren't good games exactly because they felt more like a wow clone than a D&D adaptation...
Posted By: Doomlord

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I think cool downs in some game are fine, and Im ok with that. With that said however, if its a Dungeons and Dragons game , excluding ( Neverwinter online and DDO ) that should always keep it faithful to the core rules, Like Bg 1 & 2 Neverwinter nights 1 & 2.

Those were faithful as far as I could tell. So if its natural abilities, spells per days what ever it is , keep it true to the PH , DM guide and I think will be ok.

-Doom


Except in the case of a machine gun overheating, i can't find a single case where CDs makes any sense.

PS : DDO, SCL and Neverwinter mmo aren't good games exactly because they felt more like a wow clone than a D&D adaptation...



I've played DDO since 07, I take my breaks, its fun for what it is. Some times you just have to accept things for what they are, enjoy it or move on, But yea your right, If I want a trully d&d feeling game, I try a good old persuasion check on my kids and play some good ole fashion pnp.

My hope is BG3 will give me that depth and immersion only really a imagination can give. IMO

-Doom
Posted By: Maldurin

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 08:36 AM

Yes i did. Lets take Dark Souls III for an example, and man,
I love Dark Souls. Played all of them, including Demon Souls.
But what you literally do in pve as a mage/pyro/whatever is
spamming your strongest Spell. In 90% of pve situations there
is no need of changing the Spell.
DS 1 had a good system with very limited loads for spells,
but that Work only because your Enemy Encounter respawn
everytime you rest
Not talking about PvP, since BG is a pve Game.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 09:01 AM

"I have no idea what im talking about" -the post.

also
"Reductio ad warcraftum" shameless.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Maldurin
Yes i did. Lets take Dark Souls III for an example, and man,
I love Dark Souls. Played all of them, including Demon Souls.
But what you literally do in pve as a mage/pyro/whatever is
spamming your strongest Spell. In 90% of pve situations there
is no need of changing the Spell..


DS3 doesn't use spell slots. But on DS1/2, you save your soul spears to when it is necessary.

Lets pick the strongest dark magic spell on DS2 as an example. To learn Climax, you need to :
- Find 3 hidden locations
- Join a covenant
- Clear 3 caves
- Kill darklurker, the strongest boss vs dark in the game
- Have a high amount of INT and FHT
- And it takes 4 ATN slots
- Also costs ALL souls to deal considerable damage

If this spell comes to a wow clone, it will be just a spell that everyone learns at lv X, has no stat requirement and scales 100% with the player gear with 20 minute cooldown.


And here is a guy soloing Lantern king on PF:KM



He is using a lot of different spells.

-----------------------------------------------

The problem is that you are seeing a spell as the "best spell" in any situation... A"best spell" should't exist. What should exist is for eg, the best spell vs undead at CQB, the best spell vs flying monsters at long range who aren't resistant to fire, a most resource efficient spell vs trash mobs(...), or the best spell vs mobs "A" in situation "B" under "C" circumstances if you have "D" party members
Posted By: Waeress

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 05:50 PM

I just want to add again, in case my previous post was not read.

There were no cooldown on spells in the gameplay demo.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Waeress
I just want to add again, in case my previous post was not read.

There were no cooldown on spells in the gameplay demo.


Yep. I just an awsening people who believe that or you spam the same attack or you spam the same rotation and there are no other way.... Even with warlock in nwn2(with warlock reworked of course, the vanilla wlk is trash), i rarely repeat the same invocation more than couple of times... And warlocks on 3.5e was supposed to be a "spam" class
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 06/03/20 08:50 PM

You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...
Posted By: Cirolle

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...


Overwatch
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cirolle
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...


Overwatch


Not a RPG, Nor a immersiver gameplay experience.

Look to BioWare games. All games before DA:O had no CDs and was amazing. AFter BioWare started to add cooldowns to their game, a huge decline in their games quality. Not that Dragon Age Origins was perfect. Be able to use blood magic in front of templars and nothing happening makes zero sense. VTMB's blood magic can't be shown to kine without a masquarede breach. But the most recent games are the worst. Inquisition has all spells scaling with weapon damage DESPITE all lore on previous games and the fact that one of the first dialog options is that i don't need of a staff to be deadly. They also got rid of blood magic to put necromancy into the game and """"""necromancy""""" is the worst type of necromancy ever. Instead of being the master of life, death and undead, he is just a spiritualist that throw CC on cooldown...

I HATE this RPG's should be about living in a immersive fictional world.
Posted By: Sordak

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 08:28 AM

it doesnt even matter, the correlation fallacy that is, because its confirme dthere wont be cooldowns holy shit this entire thread is pointless
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sordak
it doesnt even matter, the correlation fallacy that is, because its confirme dthere wont be cooldowns holy shit this entire thread is pointless


Using examples of how cooldowns destroyed other games is not "correlation fallacy". The fact that only RPG gamers accept this BS bugs me. Contra Rogue Corps is being heavily criticized by having it. And forcing you to switch guns in a arbitrary and artificial way...
Posted By: Maximuuus

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 03:18 PM

CD is an old boring mecanics included in many RPG since the golden age of MMORPG (because MMORPG was what makes money this Time, that's why their influences are still so presents even in solo games).

Nothing like a role play experience or I guess D&D (and I won't talk about Baldur's Gate 1/2 because nearly no one cares about on them on this "Baldur's Gate" forum)
Posted By: Ugmaro

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Sordak
it doesnt even matter, the correlation fallacy that is, because its confirme dthere wont be cooldowns holy shit this entire thread is pointless


Using examples of how cooldowns destroyed other games is not "correlation fallacy". The fact that only RPG gamers accept this BS bugs me. Contra Rogue Corps is being heavily criticized by having it. And forcing you to switch guns in a arbitrary and artificial way...


I usually don't get involved when I don't care but holy shit man, you need to calm down.

Sordak never mentioned correlation fallacy, so don't talk about that.

SEVERAL people said they agree the cooldows shouldn't be in a D&D game or even said cooldowns aren't in the D&D universe and you kept on droning how it ruined some or another game. We get it, you hate them, that's fine. Stop being so angry at everyone, it's getting old.
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Sordak
it doesnt even matter, the correlation fallacy that is, because its confirme dthere wont be cooldowns holy shit this entire thread is pointless


Using examples of how cooldowns destroyed other games is not "correlation fallacy". The fact that only RPG gamers accept this BS bugs me. Contra Rogue Corps is being heavily criticized by having it. And forcing you to switch guns in a arbitrary and artificial way...


I usually don't get involved when I don't care but holy shit man, you need to calm down.

Sordak never mentioned correlation fallacy, so don't talk about that.

SEVERAL people said they agree the cooldows shouldn't be in a D&D game or even said cooldowns aren't in the D&D universe and you kept on droning how it ruined some or another game. We get it, you hate them, that's fine. Stop being so angry at everyone, it's getting old.


Yep. But DDO Neverwinter mmo and SCL had the """genial""" idea of putting it...
Posted By: Ugmaro

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Ugmaro


SEVERAL people said they agree the cooldows shouldn't be in a D&D game or even said cooldowns aren't in the D&D universe and you kept on droning how it ruined some or another game. We get it, you hate them, that's fine. Stop being so angry at everyone, it's getting old.


Yep. But DDO Neverwinter mmo and SCL had the """genial""" idea of putting it...


What does that have to do with what I said? At this point I'm wondering if you even read what people say
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Ugmaro


SEVERAL people said they agree the cooldows shouldn't be in a D&D game or even said cooldowns aren't in the D&D universe and you kept on droning how it ruined some or another game. We get it, you hate them, that's fine. Stop being so angry at everyone, it's getting old.


Yep. But DDO Neverwinter mmo and SCL had the """genial""" idea of putting it...


What does that have to do with what I said? At this point I'm wondering if you even read what people say


You din't even read the SECOND paragraph in other forum. Just assumed that i was only talking about CDs and din't talked about resistances/immunities, lack of sun damage from most vampires in modern games and comparing to how people mock twilight by the same reason and now "at this point i'm wondering if you even read what people say"...

I just pointed that this mechanic regardless that what people agree that a D&D game should be exists in most Larian games, exists on the recent D&D adaptation and a post made me wonder if this mechanic will gonna be in the final game.
Posted By: AnonySimon

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...


Skyrim (cool downs are desguised as a mana/stamina pool that recharges over time)

Immersive? Yes
Fast? Yes
Engaging? Yes
Interesting with this mechanic? Yes
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...


Skyrim (cool downs are desguised as a mana/stamina pool that recharges over time)

Immersive? Yes
Fast? Yes
Engaging? Yes
Interesting with this mechanic? Yes


This is not cooldown. Is just a resource management. BUT skyrim has cooldowns on shouts. I would prefer if was uses per day like high elf mana regen power...
Posted By: AnonySimon

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by Tuco
You are tying a lot of ridiculous assumptions to the notion that flawed systems you tried in the past were flawed exclusively BECAUSE of cooldowns.

Not to mention how you're ignoring that a lot of the problems you are listing can and DO appear even in games that make use of different systems.

Like Sordak pointed out, this reads like "I HAVE NO CLUE OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT: The Official Thread".
The entire thing is basically an exercise in practicing the "correlation fallacy".


Mention one. One system that is immersive, fast, engaging, interesting with this mechanic. Just one.

And is not a correlation falacy. You claim that systems with CDs can be good but never mentions a single example and when i show examples you clain to be "correlation fallacy".And Sodark, claims that 4e is a good D&D edition, if he says that this thread is "i have no clue of what i'm talking about", is because is a valid concern. The unique good thing that 4e brough is pathfinder. Probably for him, everyone who hates the fact that 4e is a wow clone has no clue about what is talking too...


Skyrim (cool downs are desguised as a mana/stamina pool that recharges over time)

Immersive? Yes
Fast? Yes
Engaging? Yes
Interesting with this mechanic? Yes


This is not cooldown. Is just a resource management. BUT skyrim has cooldowns on shouts. I would prefer if was uses per day like high elf mana regen power...


Sounds like either a No True Scottsman fallacy or a Moving The Goal Post fallacy to me.
Posted By: Ugmaro

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor


You din't even read the SECOND paragraph in other forum. Just assumed that i was only talking about CDs and din't talked about resistances/immunities, lack of sun damage from most vampires in modern games and comparing to how people mock twilight by the same reason and now "at this point i'm wondering if you even read what people say"...


The only thing you said in your original thread is that you don't want it to be cooldown based, which was dispelled very early on. Everything after that you seemed angry about cooldowns and not talking about what was said in any other forum (which I didn't read, coz I didn't want to, nor was I responding to it - you only used that one as proof that there might be cooldowns anyway).
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by AnonySimon
Sounds like either a No True Scottsman fallacy or a Moving The Goal Post fallacy to me.


No, you are defining everything as cooldown. Hell, if mana is cooldown, than anytthing has cooldown. Including ammo in FPS games... Using that definition, even the vancian magic system is cooldown based;;;

Cooldowns are defined by "The minimum length of time that the player needs to wait after using an ability before they can use it again. This concept was first introduced by the text MUD Avalon: The Legend Lives." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_video_game_terms#cooldown

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
The only thing you said in your original thread is that you don't want it to be cooldown based, which was dispelled very early on. Everything after that you seemed angry about cooldowns and not talking about what was said in any other forum (which I didn't read, coz I didn't want to, nor was I responding to it - you only used that one as proof that there might be cooldowns anyway).


If you din't read then don't assume things or better. Not be hypocritical of writing " "at this point i'm wondering if you even read what people say"..." while you are not reading and putting words into my mouth...
Posted By: Ugmaro

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
The only thing you said in your original thread is that you don't want it to be cooldown based, which was dispelled very early on. Everything after that you seemed angry about cooldowns and not talking about what was said in any other forum (which I didn't read, coz I didn't want to, nor was I responding to it - you only used that one as proof that there might be cooldowns anyway).


If you din't read then don't assume things or better. Not be hypocritical of writing " "at this point i'm wondering if you even read what people say"..." while you are not reading and putting words into my mouth...


Yeah no, I'm calling bullshit right now, I replied to YOUR RESPONSES to other people originally, not to your original post. ALSO, your ORIGINAL POST says nothing about resistances or anything else that you've thrown at me, NOR HAVE YOU EVER MENTIONED IT IN THE THREAD apart from when you responded to me.

You're not pointing out hypocricy, you're pointing out how right I actually am. And I'm not putting words into your mouth, you're just spewing the same 3-4 words over and over again
Posted By: SorcererVictor

Re: Will be cooldowns? If yes, is insta NEVER buy. - 07/03/20 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Originally Posted by Ugmaro
The only thing you said in your original thread is that you don't want it to be cooldown based, which was dispelled very early on. Everything after that you seemed angry about cooldowns and not talking about what was said in any other forum (which I didn't read, coz I didn't want to, nor was I responding to it - you only used that one as proof that there might be cooldowns anyway).


If you din't read then don't assume things or better. Not be hypocritical of writing " "at this point i'm wondering if you even read what people say"..." while you are not reading and putting words into my mouth...


Yeah no, I'm calling bullshit right now, I replied to YOUR RESPONSES to other people originally, not to your original post. ALSO, your ORIGINAL POST says nothing about resistances or anything else that you've thrown at me, NOR HAVE YOU EVER MENTIONED IT IN THE THREAD apart from when you responded to me.

You're not pointing out hypocricy, you're pointing out how right I actually am. And I'm not putting words into your mouth, you're just spewing the same 3-4 words over and over again


I confusded you with other guy. Sorry about that. I was mentioning a different thread.
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