Larian Studios

Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG?

Posted By: DaKatarn

Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 10:14 AM

With a big influence ( maybe copy/past) of DOS' style in gameplay and philosophy game, many consequences on the construction of the game and the narration appear and it’s one of the causes of the feeling "that it’s not a baldur’s gate game".

Let's talk about maps.

With this DOS setup, will we have a big map for each act without any world map and with no possibility of returning to the old areas?
I see other defaults like lack of coherence or identity in the zone and this feeling that the world exists only for the main character.

In BG games we had one map for one area and a big world map allowing a connection between these areas.

In your opinion, will this also be a DOS style ( reinforcing the feeling that this is not a baldur’s gate game), a BG style (with for exemple one map for one district of Balur's Gate) or a hybrid system and which you prefer for this game?
Posted By: Archaven

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 10:50 AM

this is my opinion. i actually LIKE baldur's gate 3 to have DOS2 maps. it's one BIG map without loading time. see? i'm not those fanboys claiming the person that due to nostalgia that it needs to play like same game 20 years ago. i also like DOS2 3D engine as it's really a big step in technology.

now as for gameplay.. i would have expected that it's RTwP but... being innovated with a turn-based mode. you won't be able to paused the game yourself. every turn is 6 secs and the combat will be auto-paused every 6 secs. you be able to queue all your actions for all your characters during your turn. but it turn out that it's exactly playing out as DOS2.

i would also have expect it as 6 characters instead of 4. 4 is not a secret sauce recipe. it's for the sake of multiplayer co-op. having too many players perhaps you need more creatures and monsters on screen? that possibly may deteriorate multiplayer experience? creatures taking too long for turn? PC gamers system spec possibly a potato? and hence the game becomes a crawl? so basically the real design goal for bg3 is for the multiplayer co-op experience and hence.. the single player experience will need to be sacrificed a little. it's my opinion basically.

and to the expect of why doesn't it looks like baldur's gate? well.. possibly the art reuse of DOS2 in the world? the character design? their hair? their clothings? the UI? those need major rework in my opinion.
Posted By: Maximuuus

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 11:03 AM

BG of course.

In nearly every "new" RPG game I haven't the feelings of a journey... You are discovering things on maps but you always know (or don't care about) the world in which you are. Just the feelings you complete a map, then next chapter, loading and next map, then again...

In BG many things looks like it's a real journey and this is some reasons to me :

- you have a usefull world map (it's part of the gameplay)
- you discover maps one by one, without really knowing if you're on the good path,
- you never really know if there is something more to discover or not on the world map, you have to explore
- maps are linked cleverly (you can't discover the map that is east if you walk to south)
- you can go everywhere you want whenever you want
Posted By: Riandor

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 12:39 PM

Given the gathering your party tag line, I expect a blending of the two.
I like the choose location on map style and being able to return to previous locations, after all, side quests might open up new possibilities, or only now do you have money for that item you wanted back in town x.

Open world doesn’t make sense due to long travel times and the world would have to be filled with constant dangers and points of interest. Ok for single player games with horses etc... but for a MP experience here you need fast travel and I expect the original BG concept to make a return here, just perhaps with larger areas.
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 12:43 PM

Actually, the use of DOS-style maps are one of the things I like about the new BG3. Not only because one big map reduces the loading times, but also because now we have 3d maps, so you can now use heights, jumps and fly as in PNP.

I didn-t read anywhere that we will have one map per act,that we do not have a big area map or that we cannot go back to previous areas, so I will reserve my opinion on the matter.
Posted By: DaKatarn

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by _Vic_
Actually, the use of DOS-style maps are one of the things I like about the new BG3. Not only because one big map reduces the loading times, but also because now we have 3d maps, so you can now use heights, jumps and fly as in PNP.

I didn-t read anywhere that we will have one map per act,that we do not have a big area map or that we cannot go back to previous areas, so I will reserve my opinion on the matter.


I'm agree but a total DOS map style will be not my cup of tea and too far from BG style. I think a good deal will be large map with unique identity "a village with forest around and rural field but not a winter forest near a poisoned swamp near a city near a lava lake...". (I don't want elemental terrain mechanic everywhere like TNT barrel in every house...)


The presence of a map world and the freedom of explore and back to previous areas are essential.
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 01:27 PM

I do not think following the Bg style in the maps (Maybe in other things, definitely) is a priority for me, to be honest. I loved the first games, but the graphics technology improved a lot in that regard, for good reasons since 2002. It would be wise to apply it.
I mean, i love the hand-made maps of the first games but you can`t even rotate the camera in IE games.
Posted By: Maximuuus

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not think following the Bg style in the maps (Maybe in other things, definitely) is a priority for me, to be honest. I loved the first games, but the graphics technology improved a lot in that regard, for good reasons since 2002. It would be wise to apply it.
I mean, i love the hand-made maps of the first games but you can`t even rotate the camera in IE games.


I don't really think the point is about "visual/engine/rotation" but the way you explore the world in wich the game took place.
Everything you talked about could take place in the "BG style".
Posted By: _Vic_

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 02:01 PM

Not really, if you can rotate the camera you can have more paths in the map, you can have hidden chests and secrets behind walls or trees, etc... In fact you can have more things to explore in less space.
I respect your opinion, but it is only an opinion, there is no objective facts that will say that it is better an isometric static perspective in a game. It is a matter of tastes.

But I think I am going to stop, I do not want this thread to became just another "This is different from BG games and too similar to DOS games so we want them wiped out and we are going to arguew ith the ones that think otherwise to the extenuation for 20 posts about it" thread like the others in this subforo....
Posted By: Maximuuus

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 02:11 PM

Oh you're right, not another useless topics. I just really think you didn't understand because no one has talked about isometric static perspective or engine, or rotation (etc...) in this topic. As you said this is a matter of tastes but this is not what the thread talk about.

You're so right about rotation smile
(In BG traps are nearly always in "visible" path... and sometimes you just can't understand where you can cross the forests ,and you're turning round because of the visibility. That would sucks in a 2020 game)
Posted By: dlux

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 02:19 PM

I much prefer a hub based design with numerous maps and points of interest, so like in the original BG series or original Fallout series.

I also like large maps, so make them large, when it makes sense.

Also, I didn't really enjoy D:OS 2 style corridor maps too much.

All that said, BG3 is a D:OS 2 clone, so Larian is probably going to copy their map design 1:1 for this game.
Posted By: Minsc1122

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 03:58 PM

I would like a hybrid, so if you visit an area I am happy if the map is huge, but maybe it would make sense to have a way to travel, between these big areas
I think the waypoint system is also very convenient if you are on one huge map, but
If you need to pay for horse-cart or ship, or click on a map to travel between these huge acts I would not mind.

My guess is, that it will be a hybrid, after all in the interview they also said, that when they met with the Wizard of the Coast, they had the map in front of them,
and they selected the places to visit, before writing the story. smile

Of course if you get reason to travel back to Baldur s Gate multiple times or to some city is even better...
You might have some higher level quests, or you might have some secrets to explore, like hiding Liches in abandoned buildings.... smile
Maybe some product is only available from some special shops, which were way too expensive, while you were there...
Other topic, but I would also prefer shops without item randomization and more unique stuff to sell.... xD

DOS2 maps were always very well built, they made such a good job of making sure every area is somewhat interesting,
that sometimes I would even tolerate areas with less assets for pure artistic reasons, just to break the pattern... smile

Maybe a huge chapel in "Shadow of Ahm", medival style with wall paintings or a dragon lair, where you have a huge space to battle....
Or just a simple farmland with a corn field where sneaking is easy, for you or for some bandits, who attack you in a quest. smile

Posted By: Emrikol

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 04:43 PM

I don't recall the BG maps, but if you're talking about a Tolkienesque map, then yeah I prefer that.
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 05:16 PM

If I understood the gist of the question, I'd prefer if as much of the world as possible was kept "constantly accessible" (i.e. you can move back and forth between areas) and I'd wish for the "chapter-specific gated content" to be kept to the bare minimum.

It's fine to have area where you can't access and/or go back at any moment for narrative/dramatic reasons, but I wouldn't want the progress of the campaign to be a linear list of areas that could be explored only in one specific order.
Posted By: Razorback

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 07:10 PM

No maps at all... You have to use graph paper and make your own maps.
Posted By: Tuco

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Razorback
No maps at all... You have to use graph paper and make your own maps.

You know, you could at very least make the basic effort to read what the thread is actually about, people.
Posted By: Madscientist

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 07:56 PM

Are you guys talking about BG1 or BG2?

BG1 was actually one big map. It was only cut into many parts because of technical limitations. Most areas were open all the time, only a few were open for some time or after a certain story point, like Candlekeep, a bandit camp and the city Baldurs Gate itself.

In BG2 you had the different parts of the city as main hub, and from there you were directed to different independent areas that were "sub hubs" where you have the big quest you got in Atkatla and some side quests that are limited to this area.

I like both games and its up to you if you prefer an open world or a game that focusses on several independent story lines.

I guess Larian will try to do both things.
In BG1 (and probably BG3) your char starts very weak (lv 1), so in the beginning you have to explore carefully if you want to survive.
In BG2 you started with about lv8, so your chars had no problems to deal with some goblins or bandits. You start in a dungeon to learn the basics of exploring dangerous areas, in case you have not played BG1. When you reach the city your party is ready to go for several big adventures right away.

Personally I like games were you start extremely weak and you get stronger over time. Gothic 1+2 were very good examples for that.
Posted By: Raze

Re: Do you prefer Maps like DOS or BG? - 08/03/20 09:09 PM


There is nothing in the game engine that prevents moving between map regions. You can do so in D:OS up to the end game section; in D:OS 2 the narrative didn't really support revisiting previous locations.
© 2020 Larian Studios forums