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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362142
22/04/09 08:15 PM
22/04/09 08:15 PM
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Foetsy Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
No it doesn't, Lynn. The most pirated game in 2008 was, apparently, Spore - which is protected by SecuROM Internet Edition.

Doesn't say anything about the numbers in which it distributes illegaly when it would or wouldn't have copyright protection. It only says something about the number of illegal copies of Spore vs illegal copies of other games.
Only if other games that don't have copyright protection still get pirated less, it would say something about the effect of securom (or about the popularity of the game). But it still could very well be that, would Spore not have SecuROM, there would be even more pirated copies (and less legitimate sells).
There is always a fraction of people who would buy the game (when it has protection) instead of get it illegaly. When the revenue out that fraction is bigger then the costs of the protection, the protection is a good idea. Loss of revenue due to people not buying the game because of the protection (at least some people here) should also be factored in. You'd probably get quite a complex formula, all things included. I don't have it ;), but I believe that Lynn has better access to that kind of research then I do, so when she says 'tremendously', I do believe the protection would help (though I am surprised myself by 'tremendously'. Thats alot).

Last edited by Foetsy; 22/04/09 08:57 PM. Reason: some clarification
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Lynn] #362143
22/04/09 09:03 PM
22/04/09 09:03 PM
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 Originally Posted By: lynn
Stopping? No, but it decreases the illegal distribution tremendously.

Well, we always talk about copy protection and how well it indeed works... usually, many people - including me - tend to think that the effect of most copy protections aren't really worth the money and the stress for the buying customers.

That's why, Lynn, I'd like to ask you if your opinion is "just" an opinion or if there is some kind of research data which it is based on?


Nigel Powers: "There are only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures... and the Dutch!"
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Foetsy] #362144
22/04/09 10:15 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Foetsy
Doesn't say anything about the numbers in which it distributes illegaly when it would or wouldn't have copyright protection. It only says something about the number of illegal copies of Spore vs illegal copies of other games.


True, but it also tells you the copy protection isn't working very well.

 Quote:
Only if other games that don't have copyright protection still get pirated less, it would say something about the effect of securom (or about the popularity of the game). But it still could very well be that, would Spore not have SecuROM, there would be even more pirated copies (and less legitimate sells).


Always hard to compare games, but Sins Of A Solar Empire sold very well and famously has no copy protection at all. I'm not sure that's entirely sensible, mind, but I do think it shows that the vast majority of gamers who intend to buy something are going to buy it, regardless of how easy it is to pirate.

 Quote:
There is always a fraction of people who would buy the game (when it has protection) instead of get it illegaly.


No offence, but I honestly doubt that is true. Why would anyone buy something they intended to pirate because it is MORE annoying to use rather than less?

 Quote:
When the revenue out that fraction is bigger then the costs of the protection, the protection is a good idea. Loss of revenue due to people not buying the game because of the protection (at least some people here) should also be factored in. You'd probably get quite a complex formula, all things included. I don't have it ;), but I believe that Lynn has better access to that kind of research then I do, so when she says 'tremendously', I do believe the protection would help (though I am surprised myself by 'tremendously'. Thats alot).


Well, there's an awful lot of people out there who are in the industry who do NOT believe excessive DRM is at all helpful - including the heads of Stardock and Gas Powered Games - so I think it's safe to say opinion is divided on the issue. Ubisoft have been testing the waters, too, with their latest Prince Of Persia game being DRM free.

Since the whole Mess Effect (Not a typo, more an observation...) thing started, I've read a lot of articles on this issue by a great number of people and I honestly think Larian have been doing the right things to minimise piracy anyway - which is to say they talk with their fans, listen to us and generally build up a sense of community.

Knowing that they're depriving Lar or Lynn or Macbeth or other people they know and talk to of their livelihood will, I'm sure, be a far greater incentive (At least within the community) not to pirate from Larian than any amount of copy protection.

Point is that as long as anyone out there feels somehow entitled to gain the benefits of others' hard work without paying for it, there will be piracy. What is needed is to change attitudes and you don't do that by treating your actual customers like dirt. Well, not in ways you'd WANT to, at least \:D


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362147
23/04/09 02:28 AM
23/04/09 02:28 AM
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Online activation is a big turn off for me as well.
Making it necesarry that the DVD is in the drive is also annoying imo.

I can't see why copy protection will decrease the number pirates.
Anyone that is willing to pirate a game can most likely find a step by step guide how to disable it within 5 minutes,
especially when you're using popular copy protection like securom.

The only way I think piracy could decrease is by making your game available for free yourself, but with ads.
And charge users for an ad free version.
You'll have to implement those ads in the game though else there would be alot of people blocking/deleting them.

I really feel that at this moment in time, pirating a game has become easier and more user friendly then purchasing a legal version.
So again I can't see why copy protection would decrease piracy.

I also believe that alot of people are looking at this "puzzle" the wrong way,
everyone seems to be searching for a way to decrease piracy instead of a way to boost sales / increase income.
Besides, there are alot of people with opinions like the community here, who are not pirating because they think its wrong, not because they can't.
And when you're making a quality product like I'm sure you will,
wouldn't more pirates only increase the buzz surounding this game and therefor making it a more widely known game and as a result increase sales?


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362152
23/04/09 08:43 AM
23/04/09 08:43 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
True, but it also tells you the copy protection isn't working very well.

No, because it doesnt say anything about the number of pirated copies (purely based and what you say, because I don't know the game). It doesn't say anything about how it reduced piracy compared to legitimate sales. It only says that it is pirated more often then other games.
 Quote:
Always hard to compare games, but Sins Of A Solar Empire sold very well and famously has no copy protection at all. I'm not sure that's entirely sensible, mind, but I do think it shows that the vast majority of gamers who intend to buy something are going to buy it, regardless of how easy it is to pirate.

Could be, I hope so. But I don't have a clue about real numbers.
 Quote:
No offence, but I honestly doubt that is true. Why would anyone buy something they intended to pirate because it is MORE annoying to use rather than less?

I'm no big gamer, so I don't have a lot of experience with copyprotection systems. But in the experience I do have, it is easier to get a legitimate game to work then a pirated copy. I never had problems with protection systems (although I seem to be one of few lately). Offcourse some games are more easily pirated then others, but when it does have protection, the legitimate copies are easier then the pirated. In my experience ;).
 Quote:
Well, there's an awful lot of people out there who are in the industry who do NOT believe excessive DRM is at all helpful - including the heads of Stardock and Gas Powered Games - so I think it's safe to say opinion is divided on the issue. Ubisoft have been testing the waters, too, with their latest Prince Of Persia game being DRM free.

You're right. I read something yesterday in research that DRM-free could, in some cases, be beneficial to sales. It was all a bit vague.
 Quote:
Since the whole Mess Effect (Not a typo, more an observation...) thing started, I've read a lot of articles on this issue by a great number of people and I honestly think Larian have been doing the right things to minimise piracy anyway - which is to say they talk with their fans, listen to us and generally build up a sense of community.
Knowing that they're depriving Lar or Lynn or Macbeth or other people they know and talk to of their livelihood will, I'm sure, be a far greater incentive (At least within the community) not to pirate from Larian than any amount of copy protection.

I hope so. But with a community here of, I don't know, a few hundred and a target audience of thousands and thousands... But still, every sale is one.
Online activation is a big turn off for me as well.
Making it necesarry that the DVD is in the drive is also annoying imo.
 Originally Posted By: lepel
I really feel that at this moment in time, pirating a game has become easier and more user friendly then purchasing a legal version.
So again I can't see why copy protection would decrease piracy.

Ok, personally I don't have had problems with protection. The majority has, apparently. In that case we all should pirate out of principle, only because it is insanely, erm, insane that a company makes it game harder to use when you buy a legitimate copy then when you download a illegal copy. It's ridiculous. It could be that you are right, but don't get angry when I say I have some doubts about that statement.

Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: lepel] #362153
23/04/09 08:46 AM
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I think the issues regarding the piracy and anti-piracy measures are rather complex.
There is an good article on http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html

I have an confession: I am a pirate, i was pirating a lot, but fue months ago, something happened, i felt guilty... Iron Lore went bankrupt cause of the plp like me, maybe the piracy wasn't mayor factor but i sure did contribute to their fall.. from that day, i started buying products I felt that deserve my money.. and will continue to do so... cause it is a right thing to do

I promise you one thing Larian Studio... i won't steal your game... day one it arrives on Sendit ill order it.. i wont stab you in the back like i did to others... not anymore, not ever

Last edited by drazac; 23/04/09 08:46 AM.
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: drazac] #362154
23/04/09 08:52 AM
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Now there's an attitude they could use in Somalia! \:\)

On a serious note though, good for you! We appreciate it.


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Foetsy] #362163
23/04/09 12:45 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Foetsy
 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
True, but it also tells you the copy protection isn't working very well.

No, because it doesnt say anything about the number of pirated copies (purely based and what you say, because I don't know the game). It doesn't say anything about how it reduced piracy compared to legitimate sales. It only says that it is pirated more often then other games.
[/quote]

If the idea of copy protection is to prevent or at least delay piracy and the most pirated game of the year has a certain form of copy protection on it, I'd say that constituted absolute phail. Especially when it was also proven to put off many legitimate customers.

 Quote:
 Quote:
No offence, but I honestly doubt that is true. Why would anyone buy something they intended to pirate because it is MORE annoying to use rather than less?

I'm no big gamer, so I don't have a lot of experience with copyprotection systems. But in the experience I do have, it is easier to get a legitimate game to work then a pirated copy. I never had problems with protection systems (although I seem to be one of few lately). Offcourse some games are more easily pirated then others, but when it does have protection, the legitimate copies are easier then the pirated. In my experience ;).


Well, I'll have to take your word for that. As I've said, I don't pirate, so I have no personal experience to go by.

 Quote:
 Quote:
Well, there's an awful lot of people out there who are in the industry who do NOT believe excessive DRM is at all helpful - including the heads of Stardock and Gas Powered Games - so I think it's safe to say opinion is divided on the issue. Ubisoft have been testing the waters, too, with their latest Prince Of Persia game being DRM free.

You're right. I read something yesterday in research that DRM-free could, in some cases, be beneficial to sales. It was all a bit vague.


Gamers who like a company and feel they are on the side of gamers are more likely to buy from them. I only bought Sins... to support Stardock (Though it's a great game and I've never regretted it) and chances are I'll get the latest PoP to support Ubisoft for the same reason. When I finally get around to upgrading to a computer that'll run it, that is \:\)

 Quote:
 Quote:
Since the whole Mess Effect (Not a typo, more an observation...) thing started, I've read a lot of articles on this issue by a great number of people and I honestly think Larian have been doing the right things to minimise piracy anyway - which is to say they talk with their fans, listen to us and generally build up a sense of community.
Knowing that they're depriving Lar or Lynn or Macbeth or other people they know and talk to of their livelihood will, I'm sure, be a far greater incentive (At least within the community) not to pirate from Larian than any amount of copy protection.

I hope so. But with a community here of, I don't know, a few hundred and a target audience of thousands and thousands... But still, every sale is one.


Word gets around amongst gamers as to who are 'the good guys' and who 'the bad'. Even outside the immediate community, that matters.

 Quote:
Making it necesarry that the DVD is in the drive is also annoying imo.


That one I understand completely and it doesn't annoy me at all. It just means that when you loan a game to friends you can't play it yourself until you get the disks back. Meaning only one person can play one copy at a time. That makes perfect sense.

 Quote:
Ok, personally I don't have had problems with protection. The majority has, apparently. In that case we all should pirate out of principle, only because it is insanely, erm, insane that a company makes it game harder to use when you buy a legitimate copy then when you download a illegal copy. It's ridiculous.


Errr... no. The principled stand is the one I take: I won't allow any company to treat me like dirt, but I won't pirate from them, either. Two wrongs do NOT make a right!


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362167
23/04/09 01:21 PM
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A month or so ago I bought a cheap CD reissue of the old "Pirates ! Gold" game ... It STILL has a copy protection !

I still don't understand why it was re-released with the copy protection still intact. Do people fear that this game which is more than 10 years old now could be pirated ?

This is something I actually cannot understand.



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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362179
23/04/09 06:50 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
If the idea of copy protection is to prevent or at least delay piracy and the most pirated game of the year has a certain form of copy protection on it, I'd say that constituted absolute phail. Especially when it was also proven to put off many legitimate customers.

It doesn't! :P
Does the fact that 'Spore was the most pirated game of the year' tells you how many people bought the game legally, because of SecuROM, i.e. how many people refrained (sp?) from getting it illegaly because of the protection? No! It only says that it was pirated alot. Which is natural (inevitably so, you know what I mean) for a popular game. If a game is popular enough, the game can be pirated alot AND the protection is effecive at the same time.

We have 2 games, one bad, one good. Normally the number of pirated copies is one third of the number of legally sold copies. The good one has protection that stops piracy by 50% (= 1/6 pirated copies for the good game, which is, I think, an effective form of protection), the bad one hasn't protection.
The good one sells 100 copies, the bad one 30. This means that means that the good one has 16,7 pirated copies, the bad one 10. The good game has more pirated copies, while the protection is still effective. A game with effective protection can be pirated alot. Wether a protection systems makes more people buy more legal copies is another story. Maybe a part of the 1/6 that didn't pirate in the end because of the protection will. I don't know.

Perhaps this isn's very realistic, because the difference in legal sales here is quite large, but are there many games, without protection, that sell as many copies as games with protection? I don't know anything about that, but the story 'Spore is the most pirated game of the year' doesn't say anything about that either. I don't come across alot (or any) of (new) games that don't have some form of copyright protection.
 Quote:
Errr... no. The principled stand is the one I take: I won't allow any company to treat me like dirt, but I won't pirate from them, either. Two wrongs do NOT make a right!

Here I confess, I'm an asshole, I would get a pirated copy (if I would want it at all).
No wait, I probably wouldn't, but the fact that an legal copy is less user-friendly then an illegal one is still insane.

Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Foetsy] #362192
23/04/09 11:21 PM
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Foetsy...

 Quote:
the fact that an legal copy is less user-friendly then an illegal one is still insane.


Here we completely agree \:\)


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362210
24/04/09 11:22 AM
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That's why I always say as a compromise to bring out an no-CD patch a few years after the initial sale ... when the sales tend to become zero or so.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #362223
24/04/09 04:14 PM
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My compromise is: treat me like a customer, I buy your games. Treat me like dirt and I have a whole mass of games already, so I won't miss yours that much.

I've already saved a couple hundred pounds this year by skipping games I would have gotten if not for draconian DRM, so it's all good from my POV.


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362229
24/04/09 07:33 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
My compromise is: treat me like a customer, I buy your games. Treat me like dirt and I have a whole mass of games already, so I won't miss yours that much.

I've already saved a couple hundred pounds this year by skipping games I would have gotten if not for draconian DRM, so it's all good from my POV.


I think this is a critical point. DRM is only going to be okay for businesses as long as customers accept it and it benefits the business more than it costs them. When more people are thinking like you (for any reason, not just DRM), then more businesses will have to listen to customers or get out of the industry altogether. Perhaps DRM will be the incentive for the consumer to realize they have some power. I've been lamenting the lack of action to back up all the talk for many years; gaming customers are notorious for being all talk (i.e. whine, whine, whine, but buy the game anyway).

So...

Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Equisilus] #362230
24/04/09 08:47 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Equisilus
 Originally Posted By: Elliot_Kane
My compromise is: treat me like a customer, I buy your games. Treat me like dirt and I have a whole mass of games already, so I won't miss yours that much.

I've already saved a couple hundred pounds this year by skipping games I would have gotten if not for draconian DRM, so it's all good from my POV.


I think this is a critical point. DRM is only going to be okay for businesses as long as customers accept it and it benefits the business more than it costs them. When more people are thinking like you (for any reason, not just DRM), then more businesses will have to listen to customers or get out of the industry altogether. Perhaps DRM will be the incentive for the consumer to realize they have some power. I've been lamenting the lack of action to back up all the talk for many years; gaming customers are notorious for being all talk (i.e. whine, whine, whine, but buy the game anyway).

So...


Thanks \:\)

I agree with your main point, too. I think far too many gamers forget they are not really 'fans' but are in fact customers. That means they don't have to put up with being mistreated but can actually take their custom to some place where they will be appreciated.

There is certainly a growing sense of anger over excessive DRM, but it's not really focused, yet. Let's hope it never has to be.


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Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: Elliot_Kane] #362261
25/04/09 03:27 PM
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I think, DRM is considered as like as a fire-wall against fire, only that it is against piracy.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #362269
25/04/09 05:13 PM
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swordscythe Offline
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^ hahaha

Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: swordscythe] #362292
26/04/09 11:52 AM
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What's so funny with that ?

I tried to be serious.


When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #362303
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Well maybe it is some kind of pirate repenting wall but it has a mayor hole. One that cannot be fixed and the best thing is to simply remove the whole wall. Customers happy, developers happy, crackers without their jobs. Everyone wins!

Well, since this game will be magnificient it will sell really well and we'll get a Divinity 3 somewhere in the Spring next year, while the Divinity 4 is scheduled for Summer of the same year and...Oh...
\:D

Re: Will Ego Draconis require online activation? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #362318
27/04/09 09:28 AM
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 Originally Posted By: AlrikFassbauer
What's so funny with that ?

I tried to be serious.


I just imagined myself with my room on fire, trying to coerce my Firewall into action... "come on, you're a firewall, damned! Put out that fire! Damn Microsoft never works when you need it to!"

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