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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #516521
11/07/14 01:53 PM
11/07/14 01:53 PM
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Tanist Offline
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ForkTong, Lars...

Contact Brian Fargo and pick his brain on it. He has a lot of experience with this very thing. Could save you the trouble of making some mistakes and he might even be able to point you to a workable solution.

Good luck!

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #523951
20/07/14 06:32 AM
20/07/14 06:32 AM
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Not sure if it has already been mentioned but ...Diablo 1 PSX version is the first I remember, while porting Diablo 3 to PS4 they said it was "unsuspiciously fun" to play it with a controller, every isometric rpg ever released on consoles forcefully have full controller support and the trend to appreciate it on PC is growing faster and faster thanks to HDTVs and "couches".

EDIT: Dungeon Siege III is a good isometric RPG with a nearly amazing controller support even on PC.

I would say you could consistently boost your sales while making a lot of people happy adding a good controller support to this game.

Last edited by JackLaVaporiera; 20/07/14 08:04 AM.
Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #523957
20/07/14 06:50 AM
20/07/14 06:50 AM
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To be frank, i honestly think Larian should make a stance to not port or make it available to PS4. If they are holding content on their platform and forcing PC gamers to purchase their hardwares and pay subscriptions, why should PC games make available on their platform?

These corporate giants has been constantly trying to kill off PC gaming solely for the purpose of their own benefits so that they have part of their market share in gaming entertainment. PC gaming is not dead in anyway if you look at the MOBA like LoL and DOTA (which currently having TI4 International matches in US).

Console gaming has nothing more than trying to kill off PC gaming. Do you see MOBA or any RTS in E3? It's all about HYPE and false advertising (demonstrating next-generation games on high-end PCs) while the end-product that land on gamers hand is no where in comparison.

If console gaming STOP these exclusive crap, then by ALL means do release the game to consoles (i'm not selfish like some Japanese corporations).

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #523977
20/07/14 07:22 AM
20/07/14 07:22 AM
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I think the decision to port or not is going to be based on expected sales volumes for Larian.
If there is going to be a demand for it then they will port it and hopefully make some money in the process.

My opinion on the topic is to be careful with porting it to platforms. The target market for this game is more the old school players. When you take a look at console consumers they are more the variety of quick consumption games. Fast paced titles such as FPS's and Beatemup. From an RPG perspective JRPG's are the most influential. With JRPG I am talking about RPG's in the style of FF and even there you see a trend towards action orientation where you need to make quick decisions on what skills a party member uses. Terrain and strategy is in that regards more limited than what D:OS offers.

So bottom line: I'm not sure if consoles is the right market for D:OS and if the demand is going to cover the cost of porting it.

Before going down that road I'd do some market research. Maybe do another KS or something to fund a port to see if there is community demand for it. That way you could cover your porting costs and be certain you aren't throwing money out of the window.

Last edited by Garod; 20/07/14 07:24 AM.

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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: Archaven] #523980
20/07/14 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted By: Archaven
To be frank, i honestly think Larian should make a stance to not port or make it available to PS4. If they are holding content on their platform and forcing PC gamers to purchase their hardwares and pay subscriptions, why should PC games make available on their platform?

These corporate giants has been constantly trying to kill off PC gaming solely for the purpose of their own benefits so that they have part of their market share in gaming entertainment. PC gaming is not dead in anyway if you look at the MOBA like LoL and DOTA (which currently having TI4 International matches in US).

Console gaming has nothing more than trying to kill off PC gaming. Do you see MOBA or any RTS in E3? It's all about HYPE and false advertising (demonstrating next-generation games on high-end PCs) while the end-product that land on gamers hand is no where in comparison.

If console gaming STOP these exclusive crap, then by ALL means do release the game to consoles (i'm not selfish like some Japanese corporations).


To be honest your seems just an inaccurate rant, but I did't dig through the whole thread so I'm not sure you were referring to my last post.

You're calling-in PS4 but I in no-way have said this game should go on that platform or even (worse) another One, just that "on PC" adding full controller support could "boost the sales" and "make a lot of people happy" since the trend is growing fast.

To tell it all, on a second thought, it wouldn't be a so bad idea after all, in fact this game is one of those evergreen gems which, even if best suited on pC on which they can live longer, it would perfectly fit a PS4 as well, if a Diablo III does...

You also speak about "killing-off" PC gaming which is not the case, no publisher of "console games" would like to cut-off his fair share of PC gamers since multi-platform releases are a thing.

Also, please forgive me, but I think your first statement make no sense at all in its second part and the answer is simple enough, or, because when you release a game on PC you don't force anyone to buy YOUR hardware cause you do not have interests in doing that, then it's easy to understand how it could be a good idea to release the suitable games on the widest platform park as possible, costs-benefits ratio allowing, your reason seems just a, no offense intended, childish selfishness.

To cut the debate however, the point is "controller support on PC" due to very reasonable grounds, if planning a release on consoles could help mitigate the cost of the operation and improve the aforementioned costs-benefits ratio, well, it would be welcome, why not ?

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: Garod] #523982
20/07/14 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Garod
I think the decision to port or not is going to be based on expected sales volumes for Larian.
If there is going to be a demand for it then they will port it and hopefully make some money in the process.

My opinion on the topic is to be careful with porting it to platforms. The target market for this game is more the old school players. When you take a look at console consumers they are more the variety of quick consumption games. Fast paced titles such as FPS's and Beatemup. From an RPG perspective JRPG's are the most influential. With JRPG I am talking about RPG's in the style of FF and even there you see a trend towards action orientation where you need to make quick decisions on what skills a party member uses. Terrain and strategy is in that regards more limited than what D:OS offers.

So bottom line: I'm not sure if consoles is the right market for D:OS and if the demand is going to cover the cost of porting it.

Before going down that road I'd do some market research. Maybe do another KS or something to fund a port to see if there is community demand for it. That way you could cover your porting costs and be certain you aren't throwing money out of the window.


This is the longest version of what I was saying above, it makes perfect sense and I agree 100%, still the controller support by itself even without an ongoing console port, I think could greatly improve the (open-minded) PC gamers experience with all the possible benefits, included but not limited to calling-in people who like the most playing a game in a confortable fashion, my point is not meant only to just improve the experience of the ones already owning the game but dragging in even the ones who didn't buy it alredy cause they would like to play it on their HDTVs and sitting on a confortable couch and, since to date is not possible and/or confortable as it should, they are simply waiting for news in this regards (yes, I'm one of them).

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #523993
20/07/14 08:16 AM
20/07/14 08:16 AM
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@Jack
My post was not referring to anyone in particular. Calling my post in-accurate is mostly your opinion or probably many more. But even so, that does not makes an opinion invalid or in-accurate.

I'm not sure what's the cost to port it to a controller and probably there could be simplifications required on the UI/menus to suit it better for gaming with a controller and hence even more cost and resources involved. Also, your opinion on support could "boost the sales" and "make a lot of people happy" since the trend is growing fast. That is just merely your opinion that it could "boost the sales" simply in convincing Larian to port it to a controller. Try making a poll or a petition and get as many valid signed, and agreed players then you make a point.

My opinion is by no mean saying no to controller support. If it's going to cost Larian a great deal plus with the UI/menus modifications, then by no means do not put it as a priority at this moment. Much can be put on fixing bugs, optimizing, attending to players who have problems launching the game as well as added content.

And my final point is, i don't hate console-gaming. Fact is that their "closed-minded" practices that trying to persuade most developers/publishers to go their platform while holding content exclusively on their own. It's like they are calling everyone for support while they are not going to support you but only their own. It's a selfish and monopolising practice in my opinion.

Again i'm stressing i represent no one in the gaming community but only my own and my own opinion and views. You should as well do not make remarks like "boost sales" based on your opinion simply because you desperately need controller support.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524019
20/07/14 10:03 AM
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Give me a PC game built for PCs which doesn't cater to console gamers and shoddy ported menu systems that are obtrusive when using a keyboard and mouse.
Could they add this feature in now? Sure, but I'd be rather annoyed if they were to do so when the UI could use some improvements before thinking about controller support. Even after some added polish to the current UI and bug fixes I'd rather they worked on good old fashioned expansions, not modern day micro DLC, to part more of my cash from me.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: Muz333] #524089
20/07/14 02:08 PM
20/07/14 02:08 PM
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nstgc Offline
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Originally Posted By: Muz333
Give me a PC game built for PCs which doesn't cater to console gamers and shoddy ported menu systems that are obtrusive when using a keyboard and mouse.


You mean like Divinity: Original Sin?

Originally Posted By: Muz333
Could they add this feature in now? Sure, but I'd be rather annoyed if they were to do so when the UI could use some improvements before thinking about controller support. Even after some added polish to the current UI and bug fixes I'd rather they worked on good old fashioned expansions, not modern day micro DLC, to part more of my cash from me.


How about both? Also don't forget, with a larger market means more money. Given that money makes the world go round, they could end up doing both. And when I say "larger market" I'm not referring to dumbing the game down so that Joe Blow's shit up in Call of Duty can play it, but simply port it to console.

I'm 100% in favor of controller support and a console port. I don't own any working consoles, and the only console games I really play are PS2 games in PCSX2 (PS2 emulator).

As for examples of games that use controller, my favorite example is Champions of Norrath. Of all the RPGs I've played that allow for controller input, it has the best controls. However, it is an action RPG.

I think, ForkTong, you guys should be instead looking at turn based tactical games such as X-Com. I haven't played much of X-Com, but from what I have played, I think its controls are closer to what you guys are looking for. That and Dragon Age: Orgins on console. There is a lot I don't like about how they ported it (they got rid of the isometric perspective is at the top of the list), but I think, if I recall correctly, the controllers were pretty good. Of course, that was many years ago when DA:O first came out for PS3. I haven't played it since. I purchased a PC copy of it since real-time with pause works better with KB/M, but turn based works just as well with a controller, in my opinion, as KB/M does.

Last edited by nstgc; 20/07/14 02:08 PM.

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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524106
20/07/14 02:40 PM
20/07/14 02:40 PM
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I would also like to address some of the comments about console killing PC gaming (which also encompasses Mac and Linux, though not really *BSD, or AIX, or Haiku, or ...). I don't feel as if console is trying to kill PC gaming. It s been mentioned that E3 lacked any of the traditional PC-only genres, and I don't doubt that. However, to say this is evidence that console is killing PC gaming is simply a reactionary response to feeling increasingly isolated from the rest of the gaming community. What is really killing these genres is that others, most notably shooters and action games, are killing RTS and non-Action RPGs. Furthermore, its not that we are a dying breed, but rather that these other types of gamers have grown up around us and in great numbers.

Whom do I speak of? The casual gamer, Joe Blow's shit up in Call of Duty, or Joe Blow for short. Joe blow just wants to kick back and fell like a bad ass without really trying. I myself try to push myself to my limits to get a sense of accomplishment. If I'm not failing, I'm not really playing. These sorts of games, since someone figured out how to make shooters work with a controller, have become the domain of the console which offers a physically more comfortable setting. Hunched over a keyboard with a mouse sitting in an office chair is not as pleasant an experience as stretched out on a couch with a controller resting in my lap. The majority of gamers want to be comfortable both physically and mentally, and that means console and the sorts of games that are published for console. Its not that PC games as we know and love them are dying out, its that we represent a much smaller market.

Not only are real time Strategy and non-action RPG games better with KB/M they are also easier, I have read, to develop on PC so that the smaller market is compensated with lower development cost. As such, we get stuck on PC, while the rest of the casual gamers are happy on console. In this way we end up with an "us versus them" situation. All this together makes it seem as if console is kill PC gaming.

[edit] As a corollary, releasing more games like D:OS onto console will in fact help rather than hurt, as some have suggested, the current situation.

[edit2] Holy shit, just realized this thread was epicly necro'ed. I hope the devs are still open to the idea of a controller an console port.

Last edited by nstgc; 20/07/14 02:50 PM.

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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: juanpablo87] #524110
20/07/14 02:51 PM
20/07/14 02:51 PM
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Under normal circumstances I prefer controller over mouse and keyboard....but I don't see how a controller would be a good idea in the case of DOS even if you managed to get everything on it in the first place. So in the case of DOS I don't think I'm very likely to make use of controller support if implemented.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: nstgc] #524119
20/07/14 03:04 PM
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Muz333 Offline
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Originally Posted By: nstgc
Originally Posted By: Muz333
Give me a PC game built for PCs which doesn't cater to console gamers and shoddy ported menu systems that are obtrusive when using a keyboard and mouse.


You mean like Divinity: Original Sin?



Exactly! I don't want them to lose direction either. Adding in controller support, rather than porting a console game over to a pc with a clunky UI sounds harmless. However I'd grudge efforts being wasted when I feel time would be better spent else where (additional hotfixes, polish and content).

I could understand if this was a racing game or action RPG but games such as this and FPS games aren't overly suited to gamepad.

Now if someone was to mod in controller support or whatever not taking any time from the Devs then sure, whatever you want.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: Muz333] #524149
20/07/14 03:53 PM
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nstgc Offline
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Originally Posted By: Muz333
Originally Posted By: nstgc
Originally Posted By: Muz333
Give me a PC game built for PCs which doesn't cater to console gamers and shoddy ported menu systems that are obtrusive when using a keyboard and mouse.


You mean like Divinity: Original Sin?



Exactly! I don't want them to lose direction either. Adding in controller support, rather than porting a console game over to a pc with a clunky UI sounds harmless. However I'd grudge efforts being wasted when I feel time would be better spent else where (additional hotfixes, polish and content).

I could understand if this was a racing game or action RPG but games such as this and FPS games aren't overly suited to gamepad.

Now if someone was to mod in controller support or whatever not taking any time from the Devs then sure, whatever you want.


And I'm saying that with extra revenue from porting the game to console, with adding controller being a first step, they could do both.


Moving around a map is perfectly suited for a controller. Controlling actions in turn-based combat is perfectly suited for a controller. It worked well enough for Dragon Age: Origins, which was a real-time hack-n-slash with pause, which is less suited for controller, but it worked well enough. X-Com works very well with a controller, and its combat is quite similar.


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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524199
20/07/14 05:54 PM
20/07/14 05:54 PM
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@Archaven: first by first you shouldn't hint me what should be my behavior since that is "my opinion" as well as your is "your opinion" then. On a second line yes I do believe that widening the audience for the game, if not way too much out of range, could lead to only benefts for the game and the support the devs can give to it, included but not limited to bug-fixes, polishing, improvements and added content as well. My point is rather simple, many people are simply avoiding the game since is not in-line with the current vision of gaming, what I mean ? Simply put, I'm an old-time gamer since arcade cabinets, Apple II and 286 rigs and a "proud" PC gamer, I've never had a specific interest in Diablo I until I played it on a PSX, well I found it really briliant and thought on PC it could have been tenfold better, I was wrong, while the graphics were effectively better the controls were painfully unconfortable compared to its "poor" console version...and I didn't ply it for long on a console with a gamepad, I was coming from PC and played it few hours, not enough to get soaccustomed to it to have a chance to blame just the time spent as a reason, it was simply tenfold more enjoyable accordingly to my tastes, this game on PC or consoles with gamepad support can be tenfold more enjoyable the same and a real blast. I dont' comment on your statement blaming me to hint these things -since "I" would rather play it another way than M/K- sorry but this just proves a ceratin lack of maturity in your thoughts and comments by itself, feel free to read ahead in the other answers why, though.

@nstgc: I agree with you 100%, nothing more to add.

@Muz333: I don't think it's in your charge to decide whether or not this game could be suited to be ported or just to get controller support on PC, you have to consider one thing, it's not that you can decide what is right or what it's not for the devs unless you're one of them, are you ?

Is it so embarassing for you this chance ? Are you like "Ohmy, oh-my-God, they've made few millons more and now can afford to make some awesome additional content for this game and polish it even more" ?

You don't get few things:

1) adding a "good" native controller support would not deprive the game in any shape or form, it's NOT they "have" to "change" something for you who want to play it on M/K, it would be just a "plus".

2) opening to consoles, if enough cost-effective, could bring HUGE benefits to the franchise, to the devs and to PC gamers as well in terms of "more revenues" which could be converted in "more support".

3) don't forget that on consoles usually many ones agree to pay more for the "slot in the disk and play" effect, this could compensate an initial not-so-large audience.

4) anyway *could* be a smart move since the lack of actual releases on those platforms.

5) it could help to bring back on the right path people who are not yet completely CoD-kiddies elarging the market for future expansions, additional content, additional chapters and so on.

6) It's not "my" opinion since I would like to have controller support, it's simply I have my eyes wide open on which direction the markets are going and with this I'm absolutely NOT saying it would be a good thing to please the markets DESPITE quality and support to PC community, on contrary, to keep the quality high there is the need of funds which can satisfyingly increse reaching as many customers as possible, despite the localism of a restricted crowd of selfish, so-called, blinders-equipped "PC elitist".

I consider myself a true PC elitist since I bind my satisfaction to the way which gives me more accordingly ro my tastes and not simply signing with blood with mouse and keybord which, to tell it all, were designed to "play" LM, assembler and DOS, the latter not acronym of Divinity: Original Syn but Disk Operating System.

I don't want to seem harsh but there is no point in going against a "pseudo new" trend, I say "pseudo new" since I hooked up my first PC gamepad/controller into the "game port" of a late '80s "rig" (and is not a good reason enough to make me feel a traitor of the "PC-Gaming Master Race").


TL;DR

A game doesn't become "worse" just adding a native gamepad support, no-one will force anyone to use it and chances are it could please more people and improve the revenues leading to more resources at disposal to give more support and more quality to EVERYONE, it's simply a win-win move saw either in the short, middle and long term.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524232
20/07/14 06:58 PM
20/07/14 06:58 PM
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While controller support would be a lot more fun, there are limitations on the console.

I'd like you guys to seriously think about how Divinity 2 suffered for XBox support. I remember Swen talking about a lack of RAM making you reduce the amount of NPCs on the maps.

How much development time was lost making the game play on XBox and on the PC?
How much better could that game have been if it was PC only?

In one of the interviews (think a kickstarter one) the one developer discussed making the Elven Lands and that ended up being scrapped due to deadlines and budget restraints. The end of the game ended up being released a year later too, that was kind of awkward in itself.

Also, the development budget for Skyrim was $80 million dollars, about 59.2 million Euro. The Witcher 2 cost about $10.3 million to make or just over 7.5 million Euro.


Every time there I run into trouble on the road, there is always a dwarf at the bottom of it. Don't they know how to drive above ground?
Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524250
20/07/14 07:33 PM
20/07/14 07:33 PM
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nstgc Offline
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D:OS doesn't seem to be as demanding on current hardware as D2 was back when it was released. Also, PS4 and Xbone are relatively new and more powerful than your average computer. I doubt there would be technical issues of that sort.


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Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524520
21/07/14 03:53 AM
21/07/14 03:53 AM
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Not to mention that an alternative UI, while require some skills, is a relatively short piece of code, the same is for binding controls to another source of inputs, if you think well at it, building a M/K interface require almost the same effort it's only a matter of shape and binding.

We don't have to forget that previous-gen consoles had a completely different architecture from PC as well, PPC against x86.

On a side note, D2 was an absolutely amazing game on PC and the interface for gamepad, due to the consoles versions, was (I think) at least 95% ready, why they didn't implement it is still a mystery, the game could have greatly benefit from this.

To give a suggestion to the devs, I hint them to dust-off a PSX and try Diablo on it, I reiterate Dungeon Siege III, despite few weaknesses, it's gamepad-wise nearly a masterpiece and it has coop functions they had to deal with as well.

About various complaints, in about 1 month Diablo III will be released for old and current generation of consoles, you can't say Blizzard isn't a PC juggernaut thus they must be fuckingly stupid to open at console versions...or maybe not ?

D:OS is better than DIII in many ways, I can't see a good reason enough to not jump on the train, if you know what I mean, but there is to hammer the iron while it's red hot, the earlier you move the longer the lifespan, the bigger the success.

Of course, this is just "my" opinion stomping on solid grounds.

EDIT: To be more precise, I do believe that just implementing full controller support would be an enough winning move, console producers HATE that good PC games features controller support since they know which version is far superior and is for this reason Blizzard will most likely never implement a controller support to Diablo III on PC, cause this will "force" the ones who want to play it with a more relaxing gamepad to buy a console, till now D:OS is PC only and going the "port to console" way will probably not be the "best" way, for sure the above reason will apply even to Larian and they would be forced to leave the game without gamepad support on PC, I would say having this support could drag in nearly every DIII disappointed fan at the base of whom wishes there is to play a good isometric RPG with gamepad support, this at the sound of "Blizzard didn't allow us this, fuck Blizzard".

IMHO as always.

Last edited by JackLaVaporiera; 21/07/14 05:50 AM.
Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524587
21/07/14 07:02 AM
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I would love controller support for this game. And I think it would work very well given the turn based nature of the game and the isometric view. Just look at how Xcom Enemy Unknown mastered the controller. The only mildly tricky bit would be the inventory screen, but even that would be a pretty easy bit of coding when you get down to brass tax.

But please fix the crashes and the performance issues before you endeavor to do this (if the two would in any way conflict with each other). And the naysayers can go stick their heads in sand. They don't have to use the controller if they don't want to.

Re: Good isometric RPGs with controller support? [Re: ForkTong] #524633
21/07/14 08:56 AM
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Posts: 19
I don't think it would be too hard to implement good controller support. A lot of sticky targeting as default with the possibiliry to aim freely. Grid based inventory works too you move one grid / click.

Now should Larian do it, I think it's up to them to decide. If they go for it, it should be done properly and resources need to be spent on this. There are enough bad ports as it is.
Personally I think the current UI needs more work and implementing support for controller could be done at the same time.

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