Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Durability/Repair feedback.

Oh sorry, I misread your post. You had the impression that everyone in the entire world would naturally look at durability numbers and see the same imaginary gradient which "takes place in the player's imagination," because "that's what would happen in reality".

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, and understanding that.. I'm going to put mine out there on something: I think people are being a little bit unreasonable with the whole tedium angle.

This isn't Diablo. The complaint of "after every fight" is being thrown around with all this despair like battles are being thrown at the player non-stop. That's just not the case in this game.

On top of that, battles in this game (because it is turn based) can go on for 10-15+ minutes or longer. What is 10-20 seconds of mousing over a few items for your characters to check for durability after a (or after every few) 10-15 minute battles? Small tip: if two of your four party members never got hit during the battle (happens a lot when you have melee up front and ranged in the back), that's two party members with armor that don't need checking.

Chances are most people are glancing at the tooltips on their gear once a battle wraps up anyway, to compare it to any drops that are recovered once the dust from the fighting settles, to use their Identify skill (if you have it) when needed, etc. So, this whole concern surrounding the "tedium" of looking over our gear is fairly moot. I can't remember the last time I wasn't already rummaging through my inventory after a battle.

Don't forget, the game allows you to let durability decline longer if you have a higher Repair skill, allowing you to be more casual about it. That's one of the few benefits of investing into the Repair skill (that, and saving *a lot* of money and time as you no longer need to keep running back to town for repairs - if anything is tedious, it's that).

Now, if you choose to invest a point into the Repair skill to save money and time, the downside of that is having to stay on top of things when it comes to the condition of your gear (i.e. check the status of it now and then). It can't just be a thing where you place 1 point into the skill and never have to visit or pay NPC repair costs ever again for the rest of the game AND no other downside. The downside is all that highly debatable "tedium" you're talking about - because there has to be a downside to balance the huge benefits.

There seems to be two complaints surrounding the current system. 1) Permanent durability loss. 2) The concept of stages of damage that can go beyond someone's current skill in repairing. Unlike the former (which, to me, sucks all the fun out of finding great gear), the latter doesn't bother me at all. I actually feel it's a realistic concept, and in a good way. It gets you to care a little more about your gear and managing your character, rather than throwing your equipment on and forgetting about it (except to hit a repair-all button once every few hours).

That was actually just an example of what someone might realistically say when trying to repair something (if Divinity and its mechanics were real-life). Mainly because someone said the cut-off points were unrealistic.

The point was that durability numbers are just a concept that are obviously supposed to mean something else to a player. If you had some passing knowledge of sword repair and looked over a slightly dinged sword, you could probably fix it. If, instead, it were heavily damaged, you may find yourself facing a problem beyond your skill.

The game represents concepts like those by showing you (using the above example) 55/60 and 20/60 durability. Yes, since we're not showing you a highly detailed 3D model of the sword to zoom in on and pan your camera across the blade as you inspect every chip, scarred, and dulled edge, you're expected to rely on your imagination a bit and understand that the numbers represent an idea the game can't represent to you visually.

So, yes, there is going to be a point where X = can repair and X-1 = can't. Because X, in that case, means "just barely able to" and X-1 means "just barely beyond my skill". Some people seem to be looking at it as X = "can do this with my eyes closed" and X-1 = "impossibly broken", and that's just incorrect. There is an implied gradient over the range of numbers, rather than it being all black and white.

Hello,

I've read this topic from the beginning until now...


In general i am the opinion - like all in this thread - the repair skill has to change in some way. But before that we should analyse the system as it is.

Like mentioned here several times, you have the repair-skill with a max. of 5 levels, where each additional skill-level costs more points but you get more points at higher character-levels. Without periodically repairs your gear (especially the weapons) wears off and needs a higher repair skill when the damage is grater (or in Diablo words: less percentage of overall durability needs a higher repair skill level).

So, but what is the repair-ability in reality? Since we do have a crafting-ability to manufacture/refine/improve things, repair does mean what it means: repairing broken things, or more likely maintain things. so with low levels(1 and 2), all you may do is maintain the things in working condition. But even then you have to eventually call a real mechanic (3 to 4 out of 5 points) who has the proper tools (and maybe a workshop).

That said, most suggested systems would destroy the realistic approach of DOS. Larian goes new - or at least unconventional - ways for some essential mechanics of classic turn-based tactic RPGs. Don't destroy that by going the most comfortable and direct way.
Of course a "broken" sword is harder to repair than a sword which just needs to be sharpened and some grease now and then. In my opinion you never get an item over 100% with simple repairing skills. Even making something as good as new is nearly impossible. "Repair" means without changing major parts...or at least u should have some parts and not just a hammer.

So in my opinion the system for the repair-skill just needs some fine tuning, like
- make the repair (and identify) level of NPCs visible in barter screen - and maybe don't give a drunken archeologist in a tavern a skill of 4 out of 5 or let him at least stand outdoors^^
- feedback when weapon gets under certain value and tooltip at how much points u need a better skill (u all know the little "puppet" in Diablo 2 on top left or right edge showing worn off items in white to orange to deep red color...something like that would be nice
- maybe replace values with words (from "condition as new" to "scrap" in maybe ten steps)

- let the items get to "as new" condition under the effort of additional resources and maybe the crafting skill (e.g. repairing from 70% to 100% with 2 points in crafting and 5 in repair) and/or stationary devices (a workshop like for crafting).
This solves the problem of not changing too much and makes permanent durability loss temporary so if you really want to use that exactly "special sword of your grandfather" instead of buying a fancy new one because it gives you "+5 on talking to ghosts", this would be possible but expensive, its a RPG so a little fantasy isn't bad and people tend to set their heart on special items...
- maybe split magic and normal weapons in different skill requirement levels (e.g. 4-repair/1-crafting for 100% normal Weapons and 5/2 for magic Weapons)
- for the needed materials you can use simple things like scrap from metal/leather/wood and/or some rope/string...
- instead of making consumable tools make different tools for different types of gear, and maybe different quality stages, or magical tools or whatever. maybe combine the resources needed for full repair and the tools for maintenance, load the tools/toolbox with replaceable scrap or something like that, i could imagine one tool for metal weapons/armor, one for leather armor/mostly wooden weapons, one for cloth armor and maybe special tools for magic or rare items, you could also make tools for every level of the repair skill (but maybe too much would be overkill)
- make (special) repair tools more rare/expensive, why the heck would a lockpick tool be more rare than special repair tools when they don't wear off and lockpicks actually do every time

- i could live with the "wearing off repair tool - approach" either, it's just not so realistic than actually use resources which fit for the item, u already have all resources because of crafting system

- remove this 75% reduction PERK and give some fighting skills an impact on the durability loss

- general adjustment on durability loss during repair, one example: With 1 level of repair i would have "repaired" an item below his actual value, it was 47/60 and repaired 42/42...like shown in the screenshot first post, 1 point damage but repair brings it down to 2/3 of max durability? And the Guy with 4 or 5 points actually repairs it way better, the difference for having one level more is too big.

So in that last point we all agree i think, why should the item become less durable after a repair/maintenance? Of course when i have to "repair" a leather cap with a hammer it could make sense ;D



Where we get to the crafting-topic.

I actually like the crafting of DOS although its a pain sometimes with no clear inventory or at least a sort function. (filter on the left are useless because i need to switch between categories when i craft something in the inventory. Best way for inventory crafting - like its actually implemented - is to open another inventory window from same guy.

I will now describe how crafting works and what in my opinion is problematic:

The crafting-process always contains exactly 2 Items, in- or outside the inventory doesn't matter. You just need the character with the crafting skill selected. Then you drag and drop one item onto the other (which on which doesn't matter). When both items are compatible and you have the proper skill level it takes ~3 seconds and your 2 items become one, otherwise they swap position in the inventory.
Problem is there is no central place or system where the fabricated items go. Some go in your inventory (2 combined inventory-items), some go in the environment (inventory-item combined with one in the environment). Apart from the general stacking/sorting issues you always search for the knife, the mortar and the hammer, could be solved via the shortcut bar though.
Also that you have to drag and drop for every step again is annoying. Why not ask when i drop one stack onto the other: "how much to combine?".
In general it's a good trade-off between usability and complexity. Would they add the feature for combining more different (~4) resources in one step/tool, you would have the base for minecraft-like generic gameplay (along with the great Physics engine).
You may sharpen most swords and axes at the whetstone, reduce movement-penalty of metallic torso-armor at the anvil, upgrade defense of leather armor at a campfire and basically upgrade or enhance most armor parts, but the system lacks a nice tutorial. When you want to make books as recipes don't make all books as items with the same icon, instead make a logical sortable system like the quest-log where recipes are in a clear structure (u even have some sort of library in the hideout, would be perfect).
There is not enough overall feedback for the player especially at the crafting topic, also at item descriptions or the altering of items in general.
I would alter the drag and drop system by giving every tool in the environment like anvil/campfire/oven a little 2x2 (or 1x1 when u don't want more than 1 resource) inventory to better manage crafting especially by using right click (or double left click) instead of drag and drop items from inventory to the environment because the inventory-window overlaps half of the screen which makes it bad to handle. Also it would enable dropping item-stacks at the tool.



And for the lock picking topic:

I think it's more or less useless, there are keys for nearly every lock in the world available, often exactly in front of the door/chest. Lock picks are expensive, nowhere to buy anyways and wear off after usage, what is ridiculous, they should wear off when failing to open the lock and after excessive use maybe 10 picked locks. I think pick pocket is way more useful than pick lock. Or use both but often the person has a key for the most doors in his home...and wooden doors break under fire and axes.
The only issue with breaking a door is the noise and time it takes, picking a lock is over after 5 seconds, good for sneak mode, burning or smashing the door maybe attract guards and/or enemies of all sort. Take the door with the magic lock at the harbor-warehouse for example - aside it's a magical lock and not pickable with pick lock skill (at least i think it's not possible) - u may tell the one guard what the other thinks and create a distraction for the commanding officer right in front of the door, the short time of this distraction though don't let u burn or slap the door...like i said besides u just have to cast a spell where actually lock picking would make more sense...
So yes, you will have to implement and use doors not pickable (Quest/Trigger doors) and doors not breakable / immune to magic. (i think of metal and/or stone doors immune to magic...problem solved, else picking locks would be totally useless with a mage in party).




This.
Problem is the computer actually just sees black and white (one and zero), so adapting the reality to a binary system of numbers and logical conclusions isn't trivial.

Lockpicking

1) Lockpicks are very hard to find, expensive, and single use
2) About 70% of the time the value of loot in a container less then the cost of the lockpicks
3) It costs relatively rare Ability Points to increase this skill
4) Bashing open locked items is a sure way to destroy your weapon quickly
5) Any locked container/door can be opened with 0 cost spells

I realize this is a beta and still needs balancing. but at present the lockpick skill is a waste of time, gold, and Ability Points.

Yeah my wizard just took a point in witchcraft and picked up the unlock skill. Going to test that out and see if it is better then lockpicks.

The unlock spell only applies to magically locked doors, of which there's only one in the beta (AFAIK). But you can still "pick" all other doors/containers by just blasting them open with a damage spell.

Oh my god, why does even MERCHANT REPAIR lower maximum durability? No! Bad! I guess my Rogue is going to have to switch to bows because daggers break so fast. Maybe I'll get lucky and find some more drops.

Gyson, not being able to repair stuff after a certain point may be realistic, but "realism" is a really silly argument to make.

The problem with not being able to repair even after a certain point is that any time you miss repairing an item before crossing the invisible, never-disclosed line where you can suddenly repair on one side, and on the other you can't, you're forced to find an NPC and pony up cash anyway, which makes taking Repair yourself basically pointless. You are punished, where instead taking points in Repair should be a benefit.

The downside of putting points into Repair is that you are not putting points into other abilities. Period. The same downside as EVERY OTHER SINGLE ABILITY. That's all the downside you need.

Repair is a SECONDARY SKILL, not a primary one, and players who take it should not be forced to pump it as if it was a primary skill.

I disagree. You're not being punished for taking the Repair skill. You're being punished for not keeping an eye on the status of your gear. If you neglect the condition of your equipment, you're going to run into big problems whether you have skill points placed in Repair or not.


You keep saying this, but I'm not really sure what you mean by it. If you're saying a skill like Repair isn't the same as skill like "Water Elementalist" or "Shield Specialist", sure. But skills like Repair, Crafting, Reason, Sneaking, etc aren't automatically supposed to be pointless just because they're not "primary" skills. I would say Larian Studios has intentionally gone to great lengths to make sure that actually isn't the case.

You should feel no more forced to pick up Repair than you should to pick up Pickpocketing, Loremaster, or magic in general. However, that doesn't mean you should expect to be able to invest 1 point into a skill-line and have all your troubles wash away. Now, having 1 point in Repair *can* be effective under the system I suggested *if* you are diligent about repairing. If you want to be more casual about it, you need to invest more heavily in the skill, OR, not take the skill at all and rely on NPCs (the more expensive route).

The main thing wrong with the entire Repair mechanic is that durability loss is permanent, and that's really what needs to change. Permanent durability loss makes me want to put my best gear away in a vault until it's absolutely necessary to drag it out and damage it, and instead spend the majority of my adventure wearing disposable equipment I don't care about. That's not how players should be made to feel.

We may need to agree to disagree on the whole "durability threshold = can vs. can't repair" issue - I still mostly agree with Stabbey on this, but I don't think anyone's going to change their minds at this point, and the horse has been beaten to death many times over. But the important thing is we generally seem to agree that permanent durability loss needs to be removed, as Gyson said in the OP.

I just hope Larian takes this into account and reconsiders the Repair mechanic as they think best.

Four characters times seven equipment slots. It's annoying micromangement, and in this case it's especially bad because you are not informed at all where the "red line" is where the amount of Repair needed changes.

Try playing a Rogue and see how fast your dagger degrades in the course of a battle. The answer is REALLY fast - two Durability per attack, and you can get say, an average of three attacks per turn, and that is just for ONE turn in one battle. It can absolutely go from 60/60 to below the red line after a battle.



Here's what I mean.

Take a character who does not start with any points into Repair. They have 5 other skills, one of which they'll probably want to get to Ability rank 2 first, which takes two points. Even if at that point, they decide to make Repair their second skill to reach Rank 2, forgoing all the other more useful skills, at a minimum, they can't get Repair 2 until level 6.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that Repair 2 would be their second priority. That's what I mean by a secondary skill.

Yes, and this creates a problem during opening chests/doors with brute force.
It is very realistic, since such brutal use of weapons hurt them, but it should happen a bit slower.

Well, we're definitely going round and round now , because when you say that I'm going to repeat this:

Thanks for ignoring the words about the Rogue's very real high durability usage.

I didn't. But that, to me, is another problem in of itself that needs addressing. In my mind, stabbing and piercing someone with a dagger should not wear the weapon down faster than swinging a club or sword into someone's armored hide repeatedly.

In other words, daggers are taking durability damage too quickly, in my opinion. Honestly, I'm not sure if I like the idea of durability damage being linked to attack speed (AP cost) at all. Heck, I feel that skills like "armor specialist", "single-handed", "bow", etc should slow down durability loss - the idea being that as your skill with these items increases, you're learning to use them properly in a way that causes less damage from wear.

Yeah, weapon specialization skills - at least when I last checked in the alpha - were pretty terrible and only added like 2 points to maximum and minimum damage, less than you get from finding the next tier of stuff. If they had other benefits like decreasing durability loss and increasing accuracy, then weapon specialization skills would be better.

(I haven't checked in the beta to see if they're better, I was going to wait until Madora got a few levels and a big weapon to see what the difference is.)

This I like.



EDIT: And no, weapon abilities are still pretty crappy in the beta - they just give another 3 or so points of damage. Especially at higher ability levels, they're a huge waste of points.

What if.... there was for example a few master smiths/tailors which have specialized in a certain thing, like a master armor smith, a master sword smith, a master tailor ect.. which were able to reforge and transfer the equipment stats for a price of 20% worth of the equipment. which would make the old equipment become just an ordinary thing with its durability penalties. and the new equipment like it was new, maybe even improve its durability if you managed to get some certain stuff(which shouldn't be limited but just a bit hard to get).

Yes, removing permanent durability penalty on repair would be a step up... but considering the rest of the ladder is still broken, just the first step fixed, I still call useless.

Of course lockpicking faces the same due to spells being free of any penalties removing locked objects out of the way.

I can't say I noticed the weapon abilities yet, but I didn't really invest in them. Mage schools and way of the warrior are definitely the primary places where one needs to spend skillpoints.

If durability is even lower (not that I mind that) repair would be *even* more useless since you get way more time to find a proper 'free' replacement.

Personally I'm not a fan of durability at all. That being said I agree with the permanent durability loss has to go. Some of the ideas seem pretty good. I like the durability speed being tied with weapon specs. I also think that the loss of durability is to fast during a fight. I'm fine with large losses hitting a chest or door but it seems a bit too much for combat.
Also having to open my inventory to repair everything after every fight is too much micromanagement as well. It may be quick but its not fun or interesting and so detracts from the experience and enjoyment of the game.