Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Mods Mods for sale, with official support ?

On my point of view, no problem to pay for a mod, but if i pay for a mod, i won't forgive errors and bugs, while mods i get for free (most) are pre apologized, because it's people that made it for the community on their free time and not to earn money on it.

I agree. User ratings or critic reviews will come in from how disastrous the mod will be and it'll have a snowball effect to potential consumers of the mod. I doubt there will be free bugs or whatnot but there needs to be a tolerable amount of bugs against the overall picture.

The topic of the creator though is having larian support the mod for DLC of the original game which I'm against. I'll be honest, I thought the topic was for making mods to sell which larian has no official business with except lending the divinity engine with the editor toolkit and whatnot.

Ill answer all of the posts above without much quoting since it would blow into something difficult to read.

Several posters above noted they wouldnt agree with something like this but you all misunderstand what i proposed.



1. The various small usual mods would not be charged, as usual. Ever.


2. Larian studios must have curating responsibility and the final say in what could be sold or not.
This would ensure that no inappropriate content is sold and that those who could be sold get a proper quality testing (community should play a role here too) and are up to a certain quality standard.


3. Only huge mods, completely whole new campaigns, stories and big expansions and such would be considered as a material for official support of this kind. And again, would only be put up for sale IF Larian studios deems them good enough.


- All this would completely prevent people just putting in garbage for sale and would also completely prevent Larian studios getting any bad rep because of it.


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It would also help more serious modding teams to stick it out and actually create whole new games in the Divinity editor - which cannot be done without spending at least a year working on them.

Big mods are huge efforts - even with the editor - and we wont see many of those if there is no valuable motivation and reward for people to stick working on them over a long time.

This would also affect the production of these mods to be relatively shorter. Since it would provide direct and big motivation for people to keep working, stick together, not to argue, not to leave the modding team for any random reason - which is what usually happens with big mods. (it would still happen of course but much less overall)

And therefore to get these mods done relatively faster, overall.

I could name many such ambitious mods that fell apart and were abandoned as im sure you all can too.


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Personally, i see no problem with paying 5 or 10 euros (random prices figures there) for a whole new game and thus directly rewarding the work and effort some people put into making it.
Which would ensure i would get more of those down the line.

Of course, this would not be mandatory at all. So anyone who doesnt want to try for this option would not need to. And even if they try it - Larian studios would have the final say and therefore quality assurance would be enforced.





Hey, no probs. Hopefully something good comes out of it.

How about no.

How about actually reading and understanding the proposition and not replying with nonsensical one liners for simpletons?

How about understanding that just spamming posts over two threads wont make you any less nonsensical or your "desire" any more pointless and completely out of touch with the suggestion as it is presented?

Yes, thats too complicated and hard to to do.



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One thing in regards to one of the above nonsense posts.

I see one poster throwing strawmen declaratory statements while clearly not even bothering to read anything except the title. Which probably flooded the logic circuits by itself.

The issue he strawmans in is the notion of "greed".

Like, he means to say that a mod team of two, three - five people, or one individual who go and spend a year or more working on and making a whole new campaign or practically a whole new game - would be "greedy" to ask for or hope for any reward for it.

Greedy, get it?

Its not him thats actually fueled by pure greed. Fantasizing about such big additions to the game, mods, expansions, new campaigns, etc. being completely free for him. Specifically.

Oh no, its the ones that worked their butts off that are "greedy".

Right.



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I SPECIFICALLY SAID that any money earned with this new kind of arrangement with modding community will be split between Larian studios and the modders. I EXPLAINED THIS IN OP ALREADY.

So modders would not get "all the moneys" at all. This is only fair and i doubt any modder would want anything different.

If the mod is good and people like it - any big amounts of money earned would be gained through big numbers of sales through steam - and that would mean more money for Larian studios.

Point.




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- I myself am planning to make a bigger mod, and even a completely new story if i see i can cut it.
Even if you presume i would be setting up the price myself - which i would not want to and i think it should be decided by Larians in the end - i would not ask any big amount. A few euros would be enough.

If the mod is good and people like it - any big amounts of money earned would be gained through big numbers of sales through steam - and that would mean more money for Larian studios.



Point.


Any money left over for me or any other modders working with me, be it a few hundred euros or maybe hypothetical few thousands - would surely be nice thing to get for spending so much time and work hours on creating it.

I could buy myself a nice jacket or a pair of pants, or sneakers, maybe even pay a portion of my bills if i luck out with it.
Which would make spending so much time and effort on this valuable to me.

And i presume to other such modders.

Keep in mind that currently i have no idea if im going to be able to actually deliver. I will need to prove that.



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Now, this is just an early discussion about this idea and everyone are "free" to voice their agreements or disagreements with it - preferably while being able to read and understand simple English language.

But if this turns out to be interesting to devs and moves toward more serious discussion i suggest leaving any ordinary greedy users out of it and discussing details only with actual modders.

Meaning those who actually make any kind of real mod in Divinity Engine.



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Lets also keep in mid that having an option like this would attract more serious modders too, except strengthening and supporting any eventual modding teams or individuals already here - and that would benefit us all, in the end.

There seems to be a lot of personal drive behind your reasoning. Although you've been met with some valid counter-arguments, you prefer to think that anyone else just misunderstood you.
The principle of a discussion like this is to get your point across to someone else.
It's up to you to convince someone else, not everyone else to try and understand you.
If you feel people aren't getting what you mean, try rephrasing and keep the blame away.
We aren't out to hurt you, you aren't out to hurt us.
Not sure what you aim to achieve when you wrote "point" so boldly, but it sure isn't going to convince us that you actually have a point. That rests in your ability to convey your message.

In regards to the topic, on a whole, it will never work and only promise demise.
I'm not going to repeat all the reasons why, they've been covered by multiple posters already.
If your method would work, it would have been applied a long time ago.
Look at how DLC forced itself into the market. Only casuals liked the idea, but most never seemed to have grasped what it would end up as. A pile of shit that people still pay for.

- It would be pointless and quite inane if i would, for some insane reason, try to hide that im considering doing a bigger, full campaign/different story mod - considering its in my bloody signature and i keep mentioning it all around!


- Just saying that "ive been met with some valid counter arguments" is an empty declaratory statement with no bases in reality. Learn to actually explain your statements and support them with anything real before spouting them around.


- No its not up to me to convince a couple of posters who cannot read or understand simple english, about anything. IT IS your responsibility to actually READ what someone is saying and understand what exactly that is before replying to it.

Not misunderstand everything, read just the title, coming up with various assumptions and then arguing against those very same assumptions that you yourself came up with!
And then demand from me to convince you about anything - which is completely laughable demand to prove double negative.


- Your last paragraph - again - has nothing to do with what i wrote and suggested. And it is based on even more empty nonsensical declaratory statements that are not supported by anything or connected with what im suggesting or saying - and some nonsense about DLC - which has nothing to do with any of this.


The Point - refers to a logic point. No wonder you are unable to comprehend such a simple thing, seeing in what rush you are to just force your opinion as somehow relevant to anything i suggested.


Which leads me to conclude you didnt read what i am saying at all.

Which makes your posts pointless and you completely irrelevant as someone to discuss this idea with.

I'm sorry that it has offended you that I disagree with you on this topic.
I hope that it will not affect other interactions between us on different topics.
Lastly, I would like for this matter, as far as it concerns us two, to be considered closed.

Brainiac,
you obviously don't give a shit about the modding community. It would die with what you propose. Sure, some paid mods would be released, but why the heck would I share anything, say, with something like you, that you could use and make money with ? Yeah, right. No sharing. PERIOD.
Best community and mods come from free editors and communities.
As for paid mods with Larian approvals, like stand alone (dayz, wfas, and so on), of course yes, but there is no point in making one of your arrogant wall of text and insulting people, as always, about something obvious.
Larian will do whatever they please with some mods and modding team. You want them to sign a trade agreement with you ?
You post is so obvious it is useless. Just like you.

Hiver I agree with you, and also made a thread about the topic. To be honest I wish they just had a Royalty agreement like most big game engines out there. Both profits for Larian and content creators.

My recommendation as what I'm going to do is just forget Divinity Engine and focus on a Game Engine that does allow it, sure you need to set up a lot of things to make it work like Divinity but it can be done.

It seems people really bias on what TOOL you use to bring your vision and make a game, in my opinion it doesn't matter what pencil brand you use to draw a picture.

Theres no point making content for a community that DEMANDS us for free stuff. My time is valuable and if I make something in Divinity Engine for fun, I won't even share it, not with a crowd like this one.

Maybe take screenshots and show it and give info but no dl links.

Doesn't MOd Nexus (OR whatever is called) charge for some (gay) premium subscription ?
Larian could help moders by featuring their mods and moderns can set up some kind of donation system perhaps.
I would love to do make an epic campaign for divinity but since I don't really have the time so I would have to commission some people anyways (I am thinking of something big as the original campaign).

I am primarily thinking about various early campaigns and stories that would be done in Divinity engine editor and therefore use its various assets and mechanics and effects.

These could be and should be set in the same setting, just telling a different story about different characters, told from a different angle - possibly.

Any other more radically changed and completely different games done in the engine could be a possibility, true - but that can be talked about later on. Or dealt with on case per case bases. Presuming the devs would think this is a good idea at all.

I am just trying to start this idea going. And i cant really say anything about any details now because this needs some feedback from the devs first.


Ive said from the start that any eventual theoretical earnings should be split between Larian studios, for several various big reasons - and the modders.
The easiest and fastest way to get mods to a big audience is of course Steam, and naturally it would all go through Larian and OS modding pages.

Which then of course necessitates that Larian devs have a final say on what could be possibly sold and exactly how and whatever else comes up.

Another angle is that any such modds need to be of certain quality - since they would actually be sold even for some nominal symbolic fees - and that demands that Larin studios has a curating and quality assurance control. (im just repeating myself here)


One thing to note is that there is no "community that demands free stuff" here. This is just two or three people who misunderstood this idea in the worst possible way - despite my suggestion directly addressing these very well known negative things that happened because of publishers greed in the past - and actually removing them or making them impossible to occur here.


We would all love if free and great mods would just fall from the skies all the time but we all know that doesnt happen. We all know dozens and dozens of mods that were abandoned and we should all be aware that without any real incentive - very few people will actually waste their time making something actually big and great for nothing else but a virtual handshake and some short lived internet praises.

Of course there will be people who will try to do it anyway.

And this suggestion doesnt do anything against that at all.


My first bigger mod, whose link is in my signature, "Tinker, Tailor, Hunter, a harder mod" which will aim to rebalance the game and create actually real harder game mode, plus adjust and add some smaller subquests to the game, especially Cysael area - will be free.

If i ever make it, that is.

I would never even dream of asking any money for just reworking the official game campaign like that.

But if i then try to make a whole new campaign, that is not using Cysael and other areas in the game, and create a whole new story (in Rivellon setting or not), which would include actually creating all parts of the game anew through the editor, including areas, locations, towns, characters, dialogues, quests and so on and so on... (for which i will need more people to work with me)...

I wouldnt mind knowing that maybe i and those people can get something more substantial for it.

and im guessing such an incentive would be very positive for other people too.





Speaking of Mod Nexus... how many actually good, big, whole campaign mods there is for any game on it? New Vegas, Skyrim, whatever.

Two or three? One?

I guess a sort of a donation system could work too. A sort of "if you really liked this send a few euros to the modding team" kind of a deal. But that does, or can seem a bit like begging...

On the other hand, im thinking i personally would not mind paying a few euros for really good campaigns or whole new games as a way to promote and support that kind of community creation of further content.


Hell, i gave good money for kickstarter projects that were nothing more then ideas when they were suggested. Without any guarantees.

This isnt that different at all.

I pretty much had the same idea, I wanted to create my own world, storyline and characters using the Divinity Engine, its combat system and reuse some of its assets and models.

But gathering from my own thread, it seems the majority are against this as well, they don't want any paid mods, itç—´ either ALL FREE or nothing comments on a constant basis.

I don't know about you, or any other modders out there, but yeah I'm out, I'm not going to waste my time for some virtual thanks by people who don't think I deserve anything more, I'm a freelance 3D artist so I'd rather just stick to pumping 3d models out for others and get paid for that instead.

The flames, they burn my eyes...

And I guarantee you there would be no modding "community", only modding studios.
Want to make money ? Get a job. Modding should stay a hobby.
I know what I am talking about, I sank thousand of hours into this. I released not only my mod, but also my codes. http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,209.0.html
I am all for donation, but definitely against having to pay to get.

Ive read that other thread. I think you may be overreacting blazed, as much as most of those posters there do too.
Of course there will be people who perceive this in a very negative light, which is to be expected since the general culture mindset about modding is as it is. Yet they overreact and consider this idea in a form that is actually not suggested and much worse then anyone would want.


Neurotoxin had some good remarks and mentioned several potential problematic issues and occurrences.

Cromcrom added some of the potential problems that could arise.

The thing is, i think those can be solved or prevented from happening down the line, if specific measures and basic rules are made to do so from the start.



First:
Modding should remain free. So, no... there is no need to even allow people to set prices for their smaller stuff, or to allow submitting smaller things for this kind of a deal with Larian.
I have been saying this from the start.

Thats one of the several big reasons why i suggested that Larian should have a final say and curating control.

If the deal is presented as such from the very start, IF it is clearly said that only big complete campaigns would be even considered for this, with no guarantees those would become supported for any kind of sales... it would prevent such a negative possibility from ever occurring.


Second:
There should be no arrangement or deal made about it before hand. So, as Cromcrom mentioned, the deal should be based on first proving you can make something by actually making it, and then if its considered good enough the mod could get considered for sales.


Third:
Any and all tricks, fixes, scripts, or any other "ways to do something" in the editor or engine any modder figures out would be freely released and available to the community at large - or else.

- Else - would be taking down the mod from Steam Workshop (for example) and Larian stopping any cooperation with those responsible, while the rest would be handled by community.

Keep in mind there is no hard rule or obligation for usual modders to release or reveal any of their tricks at all and that other modders should be capable to figure out any such fix, trick or script by themselves anyway. Yet it would be mandatory for anyone thinking about some kind of monetization.
I am sure most modders would share their stuff anyway, by themselves as they usually do, but this would enforce and ensure there is no sudden underhanded tricks.


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Neurotoxin brought a few good points about how these things work when money gets in the picture from a psychological angle.

Clearly, people generally have a specific outlook about modding and mods they get.
And people do value getting free stuff to the point where they reciprocate and freely give money for stuff given freely to them.
Yet...thats hardly something you can count on.

On the other hand it is simply true that there is a lack of bigger, better quality mods i am talking about - precisely because of this "free" kind of mentality.

That isnt anything too strange.
Any idea or system has its positive and negative consequences.
The same goes for my idea and suggestion.
Which is why i specifically tried to anticipate those and suggest specific details that would prevent the worst consequences from ever occurring.


Actually, the potential problems Neurotoxin describes are harder to solve then anything Cromcrom mentioned or others had overblown into unrealistic extremes.

For one thing, i see no reason why the usual deals with donations and other smaller stuff could not work together with my suggestion. Any modder could decide if he wants to submit his mod for official support/deal of this kind (provided it is big and good enough)or not. And the smaller mods can just continue as they do now.

There is no real reason why any single way of doing this should be forced onto everyone.

You could think that leaving everything for donations might be good enough solution but... that brings us back to the very start of this issue. Its the reverse forest problem. You dont see individual trees that well in that case. And people voluntary donations are... iffy. You cant really count on those with any certainty.

Maybe the best solution for getting community created big mods to receive some recompense would be to bundle them all into a sort of community pack which would be sold through steam, with official support and quality assurance.

The price would be symbolic but due to large numbers of buyers available it could be worth it. Both for Larian and the modders and for the community, in the end.

You guys actually forced me to create an account just to tell you guys how incredibly lacking your reading skills are.

How hard is it? OP stated, that Larian would be the only instance that actually could decide what is sold. So if some horse armor mod came along - guess what would happen? Nothing. 50 mods created out of greed? Most likely only a couple of them would actually be sold and guess what - there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

If you make a script for the community and give it up for free and someone uses it - you somehow become jealous afterwards? As already explained - either state non-commercialization or deal with it.

Or how about this? You offer a script package to modders for 5$, which they can use in their vision of creating a mod that will turn in a profit. Helping them, helping your bills. There is nothing wrong with it.

You know if modders want to do it for free - nothing in this idea is stopping them.

This idea is for those mods, that might be created when $ might flow, which we would be missing out on otherwise.

I could go on with this list, but before you post at least try to grasp what the OP is saying.

The real problem with "Official Support", as I see it, is that it would add to their overhead costs/work which would take time away from doing other things.

Say Larian wanted to sell the Cow Simulator mod for money (hypothetical scenario). Where might people go to buy it? There would have to be space made somewhere on either their site or another site which they link to. They would have to make sure the payment system is set up correctly. When things go wrong in e Cow Simulator mod, they have to take time to help with Technical Assistance. All of these issues are relevant even if it's a third party mod they're endorsing.

And then there's the dark side/thorn of the Gaming business, Pirating. With the way the file structure is currently set up, it would be ridiculously simple for someone to take an endorsed mod and distribute it as a free version. Going after these would take legal costs/time that could again be used elsewhere. All of these costs would detract from any profit they could get from another person's work.

@Pappus (hmmm, who might that be, same style as OP... Must be pure coincidence...)
That will be without me, my good sir. Not a big loss, I know
There are hundreds of things we are missing out. The point is we don't know what we are missing, so it's not really an issue.
And you really think Larian will quality check even only the "biggest" mods out there (not a quality guarantee, btw) to clean it from bugs and make sure it is Larian compatible ?
Cant wait to see that.
And what is the point in posting something obvious "hey, if a mod is great, maybe larian will consider selling it in a partnership with the modders". WTF ? Need arrogant wall of texts for this ?

I suggest the OP creates a forum, it could dedicate to its grandnessitude, so it could select only people that agree with it, and not bother with other "simpletons", has it always takes a great love in calling people that don't agree with it.
And I just can't wait to see this grand mod of its, because I tell you, I am not the one that will give it the slightest help.
Keep coming the DLCs, "modders", just to see how the community will react.