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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Lou Contaldi] #514492
09/07/14 06:54 PM
09/07/14 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Lou Contaldi
(...) and how it is naturally difficult for beginners to get a hang of things -- it is a great game in the genre, but not something we could actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre. (...)




I deeply respect your position as senior editor and i logicaly understand all the other reasons you forwarded.

All except the above quote wich i think doesnt work at all in most situations. I'll explain:

A good game in it's genre has to do very well in it's genre. A good car racing game has to be a good car racing game. A good FPS has to be good in first person. A good wii-fit game has to be good at whatever fitness is good. A good platform game like Mario has to be good at platforming and so on.

With this said, you can't give a 9 to any game because all REALY GOOD games will only be recomended to the people that like that genre because that game in order to be good in it's genre, will likely push the people who don't like that genre further away from it the more it does its job well smile

If you give a 9 to a FIFA game because it's a great soccer game i have to say you are crazy because i absolutely HATE sport games and according to your review criteria you realy shouldnt give anything more than an 8 because it's impossible to recomend a good genre game to everyone.

Same thing with RPGs. You can't recomend a REALY true and good RPG to anyone realy because it's a dificult "genre" and it's not for everyone. But you should apply that logic to EVERY genre than, and in that logic you can't realy give more than an 8.1 to any good game and state "well it's a realy good Action game!" or "it's a realy good strategy game!" - If a good strategy game does it's job well, it will please strategy gammers the most, but people who like action will hate it more wink


Bottom line, you can't realy say you don't give more score to a game based on the line above stating "not something we could actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre" in the same logic you can't recomend any game to the people who are not fans of the genre... Did you recomend Mass Effect to everyone? even people who only play browser games or people that absolutely hate games with dialog ?

REAly sorry to disagree with your criteria but honestly it's just unfair, the more a game it's good at its genre the more you punish it because it will be harder to recomend to people who don't like that genre...

If you state you don't recomend it to everyone because it's "a hard game", than any realy good true simulation game is hard to anyone that is not fan of the genre, so you also can't recomend it to everyone giving it more than an 8.1.

Either your logic fails a little, or you are just being against RPGs in general, still thinking that a true RPG is a "niche" or something wich is not because D:OS is on top of charts for example smile

Last edited by KnightPT; 09/07/14 06:59 PM.
Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Tanist] #514514
09/07/14 07:12 PM
09/07/14 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tanist
Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Hiver
Metacritic is a scam itself, as well as the whole gaming "media" so... i dont see much of a point.

Metacritic isn't scam, it's just a site that collects reviews and gives an average score (based on more or less transparent politics). You can like that or not but that's not the same thing as a scam.



They allow people to scam it is the problem. That 78/100 review on D:OS was a fake review designed to weight the score from getting close to 90. Metacritic won't remove the score even when it is proven as fraud and so even if the next 5-10 reviews come in at 90, it will raise it a point or so at most.


Have you any proof for that claim or is it just your speculation/forecast? But multiple people already notified this scam review to metacritic, so we'll see what will happen anyway. wink

Last edited by LordCrash; 09/07/14 07:12 PM.

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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: LordCrash] #514522
09/07/14 07:16 PM
09/07/14 07:16 PM
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Tanist Offline
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Tanist
Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Hiver
Metacritic is a scam itself, as well as the whole gaming "media" so... i dont see much of a point.

Metacritic isn't scam, it's just a site that collects reviews and gives an average score (based on more or less transparent politics). You can like that or not but that's not the same thing as a scam.



They allow people to scam it is the problem. That 78/100 review on D:OS was a fake review designed to weight the score from getting close to 90. Metacritic won't remove the score even when it is proven as fraud and so even if the next 5-10 reviews come in at 90, it will raise it a point or so at most.


Have you any proof for that claim or is it just your speculation/forecast? But multiple people already notified this scam review to metacritic, so we'll see what will happen anyway. wink



How do I know? Well... they have done it in the past many times. Go read some of the reviews on games with low critic, but high user ratings. Fraud reviews aren't anything new.

Last edited by Tanist; 09/07/14 07:19 PM.
Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Tanist] #514536
09/07/14 07:32 PM
09/07/14 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tanist

How do I know? Well... they have done it in the past many times. Go read some of the reviews on games with low critic, but high user ratings. Fraud reviews aren't anything new.


Well, a difference between pro reviews and user reviews can have many reasons. The most likely one is that games get updated over time and user reviews react to that while pro reviews are only made at release. Another fact is of course that there is often a much higher user base for user reviews than for pro reviews. And then there is the "herd instinct" in both positive and negative directions which applies on internet users even more than on pro reviewers...

I actually never read a real "fraud" review before which was such an obvious scam. Of course I've read a lot of reviews that I myself thought which were lacking in both writing quality and content but at least the reviewers seemed to get the basic facts rights (which is not the case here)...

Last edited by LordCrash; 09/07/14 07:34 PM.

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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514540
09/07/14 07:35 PM
09/07/14 07:35 PM
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You're all frauds in my eyes welcome

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: LordCrash] #514571
09/07/14 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Tanist

How do I know? Well... they have done it in the past many times. Go read some of the reviews on games with low critic, but high user ratings. Fraud reviews aren't anything new.


Well, a difference between pro reviews and user reviews can have many reasons. The most likely one is that games get updated over time and user reviews react to that while pro reviews are only made at release. Another fact is of course that there is often a much higher user base for user reviews than for pro reviews. And then there is the "herd instinct" in both positive and negative directions which applies on internet users even more than on pro reviewers...

I actually never read a real "fraud" review before which was such an obvious scam. Of course I've read a lot of reviews that I myself thought which were lacking in both writing quality and content but at least the reviewers seemed to get the basic facts rights (which is not the case here)...


I am not saying that user reviews are always correct, but they are often a lot more accurate than the critic reviews. Averages can be strongly adjusted with large deviations. So, it only takes a couple panned reviews to greatly adjust the score.

With the user reviews, it depends on the number. The larger the number, the harder it is for the average to be shifted, which means in order for the user rating to be greatly shifted, you have to have a very large coordinated push to move the score. This happens a lot less than you would think. It is more common in MMO reviews than other games.

There are a few circumstances where a company really blows it on release and then they slowly repair the game over time. Again, this isn't as common as those who receive the terrible scores would like you to believe. Diablo III is a terrible game from its predecessors and it isn't just because of the problems at release. Mass Effect 3 is a horrible RPG and it isn't just because of the ending fiasco. Those games aren't going to repair 5-6 points just because they fixed a single problem.

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Tanist] #514578
09/07/14 08:03 PM
09/07/14 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tanist
Mass Effect 3 is a horrible RPG and it isn't just because of the ending fiasco. Those games aren't going to repair 5-6 points just because they fixed a single problem.

Well, I think Mass Effect 3 is a great game and I have every right to think so (and so do many reviewers). And I indeed think that Mass Effect 3 was a typical victim of internet flamebaiting and herd instinct. You can clearly see this by just reading a lot of the negative user reviews at metacritic. There is a difference between serious criticising a game and giving 0/10 points... wink


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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: LordCrash] #514585
09/07/14 08:09 PM
09/07/14 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Tanist
Mass Effect 3 is a horrible RPG and it isn't just because of the ending fiasco. Those games aren't going to repair 5-6 points just because they fixed a single problem.

Well, I think Mass Effect 3 is a great game and I have every right to think so (and so do many reviewers). And I indeed think that Mass Effect 3 was a typical victim of internet flamebaiting and herd instinct. You can clearly see this by just reading a lot of the negative user reviews at metacritic. There is a difference between serious criticising a game and giving 0/10 points... wink


To be fair, he didn't say it was a horrible game, just that it was a horrible RPG. Hopefully, we can all agree on that.

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Jito463] #514595
09/07/14 08:20 PM
09/07/14 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jito463

To be fair, he didn't say it was a horrible game, just that it was a horrible RPG. Hopefully, we can all agree on that.


Nod.

As an action/adventure game, it isn't a bad game though I tire of the repetitious action elements rather quickly.

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Jito463] #514598
09/07/14 08:31 PM
09/07/14 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jito463
Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Tanist
Mass Effect 3 is a horrible RPG and it isn't just because of the ending fiasco. Those games aren't going to repair 5-6 points just because they fixed a single problem.

Well, I think Mass Effect 3 is a great game and I have every right to think so (and so do many reviewers). And I indeed think that Mass Effect 3 was a typical victim of internet flamebaiting and herd instinct. You can clearly see this by just reading a lot of the negative user reviews at metacritic. There is a difference between serious criticising a game and giving 0/10 points... wink


To be fair, he didn't say it was a horrible game, just that it was a horrible RPG. Hopefully, we can all agree on that.

Not really. That in itself depends a lot of the definition of RPG. In some elements Mass Effect 3 was imo a better RPG than D:OS but that's little worth in itself. That's why I refuse to think in such limited categories/genres in general... wink

Last edited by LordCrash; 09/07/14 08:31 PM.

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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: LordCrash] #514613
09/07/14 08:52 PM
09/07/14 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash

Not really. That in itself depends a lot of the definition of RPG


Certainly, and Role Playing Game is where you play a Role, in a game and so naturally all games are Role Playing Games. /sarc

Yeah, sorry... I was there when they created the first pen and paper RPGs and of course the later cRPGs, I don't care for the whole "what it means to me" adaptions people have made to the term over the years and obviously, I am not going to beat this dead horse with you.

Lets just say... no. I don't agree.

Last edited by Tanist; 09/07/14 08:53 PM.
Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514756
10/07/14 12:03 AM
10/07/14 12:03 AM
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Eurogamer Germany review: 80/100

http://www.eurogamer.de/articles/2014-07-08-divinity-original-sin-test


And on a side note: Divinity Original Sin is part of Gamespot's "Road to the Game of the Year 2014". You can watch the nomination video here (can't wait for Kevin VanOrd's review tbh)... wink

http://www.gamespot.com/videos/road-to-game-of-the-year-2014/2300-6420132/


And here is a new interview from PC Gamer with Swen. It seems like we could expect the AI personalities and other things in a big update next week! Extra companions also have a new ETA -> August. smile

http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/07/09/divini...ts-next-update/



Last edited by LordCrash; 10/07/14 12:14 AM.

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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: KnightPT] #514782
10/07/14 12:51 AM
10/07/14 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: KnightPT
Originally Posted By: Lou Contaldi
(...) and how it is naturally difficult for beginners to get a hang of things -- it is a great game in the genre, but not something we could actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre. (...)



I deeply respect your position as senior editor and i logicaly understand all the other reasons you forwarded.

All except the above quote wich i think doesnt work at all in most situations. I'll explain:

A good game in it's genre has to do very well in it's genre. A good car racing game has to be a good car racing game. A good FPS has to be good in first person. A good wii-fit game has to be good at whatever fitness is good. A good platform game like Mario has to be good at platforming and so on.

With this said, you can't give a 9 to any game because all REALY GOOD games will only be recomended to the people that like that genre because that game in order to be good in it's genre, will likely push the people who don't like that genre further away from it the more it does its job well smile

If you give a 9 to a FIFA game because it's a great soccer game i have to say you are crazy because i absolutely HATE sport games and according to your review criteria you realy shouldnt give anything more than an 8 because it's impossible to recomend a good genre game to everyone.

Same thing with RPGs. You can't recomend a REALY true and good RPG to anyone realy because it's a dificult "genre" and it's not for everyone. But you should apply that logic to EVERY genre than, and in that logic you can't realy give more than an 8.1 to any good game and state "well it's a realy good Action game!" or "it's a realy good strategy game!" - If a good strategy game does it's job well, it will please strategy gammers the most, but people who like action will hate it more wink

Bottom line, you can't realy say you don't give more score to a game based on the line above stating "not something we could actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre" in the same logic you can't recomend any game to the people who are not fans of the genre... Did you recomend Mass Effect to everyone? even people who only play browser games or people that absolutely hate games with dialog ?

Really sorry to disagree with your criteria but honestly it's just unfair, the more a game it's good at its genre the more you punish it because it will be harder to recomend to people who don't like that genre...

If you state you don't recomend it to everyone because it's "a hard game", than any realy good true simulation game is hard to anyone that is not fan of the genre, so you also can't recomend it to everyone giving it more than an 8.1.

Either your logic fails a little, or you are just being against RPGs in general, still thinking that a true RPG is a "niche" or something which is not because D:OS is on top of charts for example smile


Hey KnightPT!

I think we are just having a small communication problem! The review scale isn't saying that the game has to alter the minds of non-believers! When we say "actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre" we don't mean they hate or even dislike the genre, just that it isn't in their normal repertoire.

The difference to us is something like BlazBlue: Chrono Phantasma versus Super Smash Bros. -- we enjoyed BlazBlue and thought but some of the difficulty curve and controls are more tailored for people who are into the nitty gritty, however lacked some good tutorials . Meanwhile, Super Smash Bros. holds a more universal appeal for all gamers, is generally more accessible, etc..

If someone came up to the reviewer and asked "What game should I play right now?", he would probably say "You HAVE to play Divinity: Original Sin if you are a fan of RPGS, that game is Great!" Meanwhile, they might not need the "if you are a fan of RPGs" qualifier with other games. Its a similar situation as when we had to tackle reviewing Southpark: Stick of Truth -- it is something we'd actively recommend to fans of the series game, but may or may not to people who aren't fans of the series. Hearthstone is something we can actively recommend to everyone, not just people with background in WoW.

I wish I could be more precise about what exactly made him come to the conclusion -- I haven't played the game. But that is at least the explanation of our review scale smile We are doing our best to recommend to people with different tastes!

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514808
10/07/14 01:45 AM
10/07/14 01:45 AM
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Much doritos.

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Hiver] #514812
10/07/14 01:51 AM
10/07/14 01:51 AM
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Tanist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hiver
Much doritos.



Yo! Don't forget the Dew!

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514825
10/07/14 02:06 AM
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Last edited by LordCrash; 10/07/14 02:08 AM.

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Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514830
10/07/14 02:18 AM
10/07/14 02:18 AM
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I'm really excited to see so many positive reviews come in!

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #514906
10/07/14 04:05 AM
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Good to see positive reviews, especially for a turn based isometric RPG. But Larian needs to patch the shit out of this, add new DLC and call it enhanced edition. CDPR has shown the value in a second release.

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Garod] #515012
10/07/14 08:02 AM
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Good job Larian, you deserve all this.

Now gimme some new wizard dresses and spells. :P

Re: D:OS Reviews coming in :) [Re: Lou Contaldi] #515038
10/07/14 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: Lou Contaldi
Originally Posted By: Garod
some more reviews:
8.1 don't quite agree with this one on some things...
http://middleofnowheregaming.com/2014/07/07/divinity-original-sin-review/


Hey Garod! I'm the Senior Editor of Middle of Nowhere Gaming (MONG) and just wanted to point out that our reviewer absolutely LOVED the game -- we tend to use all points of the review scale [unlike the IGN's which will give a game a 7 just for merely working].

This is what an 8.1 would mean on our site, according to our review scale:
"A great game is exactly what it sounds like: great. The game has its (sometimes obvious) flaws, but the vast majority of the game is expertly executed. The flaws may be that it has underwhelming value, that the audience is too niche, or that the story is bland. A great game would be one you would recommend to a lot of people while you may not recommend it to an everyday Joe (or possibly someone who doesn稚 enjoy the genre), you think it exemplifies what makes a great game. While it is not the best game in your collection, it is a worthy selection that is well worth the time and money."

I believe the only reason it was given under a 9 was some technical issues [which will undoubtedly be patched soon!] and how it is naturally difficult for beginners to get a hang of things -- it is a great game in the genre, but not something we could actively recommend to people who may not be fans of the genre. The story was, for the most part, left out of the decision.

If you have any further questions, let me know! I'll forward them to the reviewing staff member!

Thanks again for taking the time to read the review, we always appreciate it!



Hi Lou,

First off thanks for responding. Let me clarify what I meant with that I don't quite agree with some of this review. I wasn't saying that your score is wrong or that it's a bad review.
I was more mentioning that there were a couple of things in the review I didn't agree with as a personal opinion.

Here some points I wouldn't agree with:

"Divinity: Original Sin, isn?t a visually stunning game; the title is mostly played from a zoomed out perspective and as such, there isn?t any extreme levels of detail on the world?s objects. The game?s environments, while lacking in extensive detail, are brought to life by the many interactive objects on screen. While the game?s bright visuals and saturated color pallet might not appeal to everyone, it strongly encourages exploration of the world which befits the game?s adventurous tone. Just don?t expect to see any awe inspiring landscapes.."

I love the vibrant colors of the game and really enjoy the art style as such the visuals for me are pretty good. Also if you read allot of other reviewers you'll find that the majority laud the graphics taking into consideration this is a CRPG and probably the best looking CRPG up to date. Also I'm not quite sure why objects being movable is a criteria for visuals? I didn't see any mention of the artwork, spell effects or simply "completeness of the environment" (wildlife, cutlery on tables etc etc)which adds to immersion. If you compare visuals to Skyrim or Witcher 3 etc yes the graphics aren't that good, but compare it to other similar games "BG revision, Wasteland, etc" they are better than anything out there.


"There are 11 different starting classes to choose from and their diversity adds a lot of depth to the gameplay. There are straight-forward classes like the melee powerhouse fighters, specialist classes in certain elements like the wizard and then there are hybrid classes like the healing warrior clerics. The variety of classes lends Divinity: Original Sin great replayability and diversity as a whole. These classes are customizable by adding points to their attributes, skills and abilities, all of which have a profound effect on the gameplay both in and outside of combat."

Actually there are no classes in D:OS, if you look a little deeper into your character creation as well you are completely free to chose whatever starting skills,stats and abilities as well as spells.

"Divinity: Original Sin also has a robust crafting system where players can collect materials scattered around the world or dropped by monsters which can then be used to craft new items. However, unlocking item crafting can only be achieved by locating the many crafting recipes scattered across the world, encouraging exploration and interactivity between players and the many npcs and objects in the world."

As far as I know you don't need recipes to craft, they are simply there to help you find the available combinations.


"The game does have its fair share of bugs, and this has lead to a infrequent number of game crashes and resets. The most prevalent encounter of one I experienced was within one of the game?s many loading screens upon the transition between areas within the game."

I've personally not crashed once, I know Larian had an issue on release day but that was fixed in a day or two with patches. Not quite sure what "fair share of bugs" means there's no clarification and feels more like something thrown in the review without evidence to back it up.

So as I said, overall I like the review and it does a good job and you can clearly tell the reviewer enjoyed the combat element of the game. So please don't take this as too harsh a criticism, but I thought I'd give some color to my statement of not quite agreeing with everything.






Last edited by Garod; 10/07/14 08:49 AM.

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