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Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513217
08/07/14 03:13 PM
08/07/14 03:13 PM
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Horrorscope Offline
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The only issue I have with "give it time" is people might simply wanted to play the game now and have all that is was supposed to have. They will now never see it. Oh well, but a word about this one issue to me... is in order.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: meme] #513298
08/07/14 04:32 PM
08/07/14 04:32 PM
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Peter Ebbesen Offline

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Originally Posted By: meme
They are clearly going to be adding more content later. Give it time.

P1: I bought this car the other day. Wonderful vehicle. Perfect controls, great comfort, and the mileage! Truly a wonder.

P2: I agree. I thought it looked so wonderful in the sales pitch that I bought one too, but I'm not satisfied. When I got it, I noticed that it doesn't have any doors. It is bit windy, not to mention unsafe.

P1: Come on, it had doors in the sales pitch. They are clearly going to be adding them later. Give it time.

P2: Sorry, but I didn't buy it in order to use it some unspecified time in the future when it had doors, I bought it to use now.

P1: Enjoy the wind.

--------

While I am a great believer in enjoying any game as it is upon release, evaluating its value for money solely on the basis of what is actually delivered at the time of purchase rather than prior expectations or future promises... and feel that by this measure this particular game is definitely worth the cost...

...it is hardly unreasonable for people to feel disgruntled when game content that has been widely advertised and used as a sales point isn't in the game upon release or is so in severely limited form.

"Give them time to do content production" is a good rallying cry during alpha or beta development. Post release? Not so much.

This time, unlike its earlier games where Larian has a history of blaming its various publishers for bad releases (and for all I know, they might well be right to do so), the release has been under Larian's control, so they deserve all the credit for what they have delivered, and all the blame for what they have not, but had said they would.


When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513463
08/07/14 07:23 PM
08/07/14 07:23 PM
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eRe4s3r Offline

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Any news about this, I mean, I am not in a hurry.. but does the super dungeon come or not?

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513527
08/07/14 08:52 PM
08/07/14 08:52 PM
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Lar_q Offline

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The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon(Alchemist) were originally all part of the mega dungeon but when we realised we were never going to make it at the density level we aspired to, we decided to modify their function. We have the other parts of the dungeons on our HDDs but they're not that much fun so we decided not to include them. As I said before, it's a game, not a shopping list and "Killing your darlings" is an inevitable part of any production as is shifting priorities.

I think there's more than sufficient content in D:OS as is. There certainly is more than we planned for and I hope people do realise just exactly how easy it would be to construct a few extra boring dungeon levels just for the sake to living up to the "letter of the law". Or maybe we could have cut up some of the existing dungeons and split them in different levels. We opted not to do that because we thought it'd deteriorate the game and tbh, didn't consider it a big deal. A lot these resource shifts had to do with implementing other feedback we got during the beta which we thought was more important. You may agree or disagree with that, but it's one of those things developers sometimes have to do. I certainly don't regret making other areas more dense and adding more freedom at the expense of these dungeon levels.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Lar_q] #513536
08/07/14 08:59 PM
08/07/14 08:59 PM
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Tanist Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lar_q
The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon(Alchemist) were originally all part of the mega dungeon but when we realised we were never going to make it at the density level we aspired to, we decided to modify their function. We have the other parts of the dungeons on our HDDs but they're not that much fun so we decided not to include them. As I said before, it's a game, not a shopping list and "Killing your darlings" is an inevitable part of any production as is shifting priorities.

I think there's more than sufficient content in D:OS as is. There certainly is more than we planned for and I hope people do realise just exactly how easy it would be to construct a few extra boring dungeon levels just for the sake to living up to the "letter of the law". Or maybe we could have cut up some of the existing dungeons and split them in different levels. We opted not to do that because we thought it'd deteriorate the game and tbh, didn't consider it a big deal. A lot these resource shifts had to do with implementing other feedback we got during the beta which we thought was more important. You may agree or disagree with that, but it's one of those things developers sometimes have to do. I certainly don't regret making other areas more dense and adding more freedom at the expense of these dungeon levels.


So will there be plans to add them in later as a patch or are they cut for good?

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513546
08/07/14 09:17 PM
08/07/14 09:17 PM
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Peter Ebbesen Offline

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Lar_q - Thanks for finally making clear what is going on. You may not think it is a big deal, but that's because you know what is going on.

Making hard choices is what game development is all about, and I'd be the last to criticize you for that, but communicating those clearly to the community, when the changes violate explicit kickstarter promises - and make no mistake, when you state something as a stretch goal to gain more funding (such as companions) or write that so-and-so will happen (an n level lair), it is and will be read and understood as a promise from your side that you will do this should funding be achieved, not an optional feature - is where Larian has been deficient.

This whole thread could have been avoided, and you'd have gotten a different and more positive type of discussion, if you had merely made a short kickstarter update and written a sticky thread in this forum stating exactly what you are saying now, that yes, you made those promises, but it wasn't working out as well as expected, so you did this-or-that instead and, most importantly, this should have been done at or shortly before release.

Until your post here, all everybody else could find by googling the internet was an earlier comment from Larian from a week or two ago where it was mentioned that some levels from the lair had been cut - in other words, anybody trying to find out what the hell had happened to a fairly prominent bonus feature from the kickstarter was that there was a lair in Phantom Forest, just not 11 levels deep. Understandably, people went looking - and didn't find.

Anyhow, thanks again for finally clearing this up.

Last edited by Peter Ebbesen; 08/07/14 09:20 PM. Reason: grammatical error

When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Lar_q] #513585
08/07/14 10:02 PM
08/07/14 10:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 258
Portugal
KnightPT Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lar_q
The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon(Alchemist) were originally all part of the mega dungeon but when we realised we were never going to make it at the density level we aspired to, we decided to modify their function. We have the other parts of the dungeons on our HDDs but they're not that much fun so we decided not to include them. As I said before, it's a game, not a shopping list and "Killing your darlings" is an inevitable part of any production as is shifting priorities.

I think there's more than sufficient content in D:OS as is. There certainly is more than we planned for and I hope people do realise just exactly how easy it would be to construct a few extra boring dungeon levels just for the sake to living up to the "letter of the law". Or maybe we could have cut up some of the existing dungeons and split them in different levels. We opted not to do that because we thought it'd deteriorate the game and tbh, didn't consider it a big deal. A lot these resource shifts had to do with implementing other feedback we got during the beta which we thought was more important. You may agree or disagree with that, but it's one of those things developers sometimes have to do. I certainly don't regret making other areas more dense and adding more freedom at the expense of these dungeon levels.


Dear Lar_q you seem grumpy today, i hope everything is ok and nothing bad happened or something smile

Don't be affected by forum thread of people complaining about every-single-thing. I've been meaning to write this for a couple days now after realizing the success you've been geting.

Hopefuly you are not being affected by the overcoming popularity of the game on forums (steam forums are bursting with activity on D:OS) that inevitably leads to a lot of "forum trolls" that are just naysayers seeking attention and a little anonymous hate.

True that most people are entitled to their own opinion and quite frankly most of them will express those opinions in a very very wrong way, but at the end of the day don't forget that EVERY game out there, no matter how good, there will ALWAYS be a gigantic amount of forum hate, forum complains, threats, disapointments, bad language, etc, etc, etc.

Welcome to the big picture with all it's downsides as well wink be strong and brave and always remember your game is great.


With this thread in particular, i believe that some fans liked the design idea of a giant dungeon because it's a "thing" on RPGs. Even tough D:OS is a very special diferent kind of RPG mood or setting, a lot of people like classical deep endless dungeons because they remind them of old-school dungeon crawlers and perhaps wanted to add that feeling or "vibe" to D:OS making it even better.


I personaly agree with the idea that when you invest in a company for kickstarter you MUST fully trust the developers to do whats best with that money and you did because the game turned out great, so we have to trust that you made your best shot and gut feeling to divert funds from one thing to another.

With this said, i wanted to leave a small advice. If you do make a lot of money on D:OS (Seems to be doing rather well?) just use that HDD files of the dungeon you already started, finish it, make it worth of the franchise and release it to the kickstarter backers for free. It would be quite easy to fill a giant dungeon on the game as there's certainly a lot of ways to put some lore/objectives in a giant dungeon.


Fans will love you even more and probably (i think?) it wouldnt jump costs terribly high because as you said you already have some work done. THis is my humble advice.

Love you all.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513597
08/07/14 10:11 PM
08/07/14 10:11 PM
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Demonic Offline
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As a modder, Lar_q's comment is adequate enough. I understand it from a development position.

I'd rather have those three quality dungeons (The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon) as opposed to some crappy ones and I don't care if it was promised. You guys are way too anal about things in the face of a game which is otherwise top quality especially in an industry full of games way too short.

You guys also forget that the dungeon was never a priority. I can imagine Larian forgot about it entirely hence why they never wrote an update about it.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513599
08/07/14 10:14 PM
08/07/14 10:14 PM
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Halcyon Offline
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Ok, so clarity from the developer. Appreciate it and am moving on smile I am sure additional content will be coming out as time goes by, assuming sales support it!

How are sales by the way?

Edit: I think the reason why people are so interested in the extra content is because we want to spend as much time as we can with this great game smile

Last edited by Halcyon; 08/07/14 10:15 PM.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513672
08/07/14 11:13 PM
08/07/14 11:13 PM
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Actionhanz Offline
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i wrote something and after realized that a dev allready cleared the situation....

Anyway, where are the dlcs? where are the addons? The conversation after the endboss gives hope for further stuff? NAH dont answer just shut up and take my MONEY!!!!

Last edited by Actionhanz; 08/07/14 11:18 PM.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513678
08/07/14 11:21 PM
08/07/14 11:21 PM
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Horrorscope Offline
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I don't think anyone was wrong for asking what was going on. So I don't agree with any one thinking the fans did anything wrong here asking. There was supposed to be this huge ass dungeon (there was a movie just about it) and well it should stick out as this huge ass dungeon and well it wasn't to be found. That is was splintered into a few smaller dungeons, ok, not ideal, not really what was promised, but at least we know. I don't think we were wrong at all to ask for clarification.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Demonic] #513705
08/07/14 11:55 PM
08/07/14 11:55 PM
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Peter Ebbesen Offline

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Originally Posted By: Demonic
As a modder, Lar_q's comment is adequate enough. I understand it from a development position.

I'd rather have those three quality dungeons (The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon) as opposed to some crappy ones and I don't care if it was promised.

And in this you are undoubtedly like the vast majority of posters in this thread, myself included. Once you are told what is going on, and if it sounds at least half reasonable, you are happy enough.

Quote:

You guys are way too anal about things in the face of a game which is otherwise top quality especially in an industry full of games way too short.

You guys also forget that the dungeon was never a priority. I can imagine Larian forgot about it entirely hence why they never wrote an update about it.

In this, however, you are getting on a high horse and I'd suggest getting off before you fall would be in order. horsey

We are talking about a megadungeon that was featured prominently in the kickstarter once it got rolling and the company started adding enticements for further funding, and was one of the highlights of update #44 last summer, when they'd gotten started on it.

It is not being anal to wonder just what the hell happened to it, when nobody could find what was, in Larian's own words, the fabled lair beneath Phantom Forest, in the released game. hahaha

Not mentioning what had happened to it is bad communication to the backers, pure and simple, and the reason for that failure of communication, whether they forgot, were stressed, didn't consider it important enough to mention, or for whatever other reason - is completely irrelevant to us as players and backers. That's a purely internal issue.

Hopefully Larian has learned that lesson for any future kickstarter project: If you promise something, either carry through with it or tell the backers why not. think

Since the backers have given away money on a hope and a prayer to a project in the first place and tend to get emotionally invested as well, they are usually very tolerant towards changes, so long as they are told that the change has been made and why it was done, and if you don't want to risk getting into that position in the first place as a company, don't make so specific promises.


When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #513718
09/07/14 12:09 AM
09/07/14 12:09 AM
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MindlessAutomata Offline

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Cutting the dungeons up into smaller dungeons is fine with me. Just good to know it's technically there. I can see why people would get upset about that not knowing that the content is actually still there, just modified a bit.

Geez, this game is so huge. A dream come true and a breath of fresh air for the genre.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: MindlessAutomata] #513748
09/07/14 12:47 AM
09/07/14 12:47 AM
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Peter Ebbesen Offline

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Originally Posted By: MindlessAutomata

Geez, this game is so huge. A dream come true and a breath of fresh air for the genre.

It certainly appears to be the largest party based CRPG since Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (which was ridiculously large in areas to explore and number of sidequests to complete) and the classic Might and Magic and Wizardry games.

It isn't that we haven't seen bigger party based CRPGs with more content before, it is just that we've got to go back a decade and a half, or more, to find a time when such games were made.

It truly is wonderful to see such a game again, especially when it works as well as D:OS does (slight UI issues notwithstanding).


When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Peter Ebbesen] #513772
09/07/14 01:07 AM
09/07/14 01:07 AM
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Gregarious Offline
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Originally Posted By: Peter Ebbesen
Originally Posted By: MindlessAutomata

Geez, this game is so huge. A dream come true and a breath of fresh air for the genre.

It certainly appears to be the largest party based CRPG since Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn (which was ridiculously large in areas to explore and number of sidequests to complete) and the classic Might and Magic and Wizardry games.

It isn't that we haven't seen bigger party based CRPGs with more content before, it is just that we've got to go back a decade and a half, or more, to find a time when such games were made.

It truly is wonderful to see such a game again, especially when it works as well as D:OS does (slight UI issues notwithstanding).


Avernum: Escape From the Pit is pretty packed with content. The main thing against that game is it's extremely ugly. If that doesn't bother you, then it's an amazing game.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Demonic] #514752
09/07/14 11:58 PM
09/07/14 11:58 PM
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randir14 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Demonic

You guys also forget that the dungeon was never a priority. I can imagine Larian forgot about it entirely hence why they never wrote an update about it.


As someone else said it was a prominent stretch goal, they even made a Kickstarter update devoted to it last year.

Obsidian did the same thing with their Endless Paths dungeon which will be 13 levels. And I'm sure people would throw a huge fit if they decided to cut it out of the game.

Anyway I'm at least glad to now know the reason for its exclusion. The game is still awesome.

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: Lar_q] #514933
10/07/14 05:27 AM
10/07/14 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: Lar_q
The Knight's Dungeon, the Inner Sanctum (Temple of the dead), the Druid Dungeon(Alchemist) were ...


fine with me.


"I don't make games to make money, I make money to make games". (Swen Vincke)
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #514980
10/07/14 07:04 AM
10/07/14 07:04 AM
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Posts: 3,053
Between Belgium and Rivellon ....
Joram Offline

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Between Belgium and Rivellon ....
@lar_q : many thanks to let us know !

If I understand it correctly D:OS "is" very big ? In comparison with DD : bigger than DD or not ?
JUST simple: I'm very curious about this !! wink

If smaller than DD, no problem at all ..
If bigger than DD : woooow, how many hours to complete D:OS (for me) ?
Many, many, many months, even a year (to know I can't play that much a week ) ...

Another question :
So in fact, beneath/under the Phantom Forest there IS a dungeon (but not the "super" dungeon ) ?


On 7th of february 2015 : I start a new adventure in the Divinity world of Original Sin,
it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #515280
10/07/14 12:36 PM
10/07/14 12:36 PM
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El Zoido Offline

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Thanks for the clarification.
I can definietely understand your reasoning and tend to agree that the inclusion "just for the sake of it" isn't the right way to go.
The game seems pretty big as is and it is great fun - at no point did I regret joining the kickstarter.

Nevertheless I can also understand some people being upset about something that could be seen as a broken promise, or worse yet, a marketing gag targeted at hyping your kickstarter a bit more - to make it clear, that is not my opinion, and I don't think it was your intention.

Next Kickstarter, maybe try to be a bit more realistic with your additional and/or stretch goals. wink

Re: Larian lied about super dungeon! [Re: egonlistic] #515400
10/07/14 02:16 PM
10/07/14 02:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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Belgium
Styno Offline

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Belgium
Check out this video, it's almost a year old
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R15guR8LdCI

so no one "lied" about the dungeon smile

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