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Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Tanist] #515411
10/07/14 02:27 PM
10/07/14 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tanist

What this game really needs is an in-game notebook.


Yeah... that is it... how about a book that just allows you to put notes in. Nothing special, just a simple text input system. That way I could type in the date, the person I spoke with and some basic hints/facts I got from their conversation.

Heck, I would even like that better than them giving access to the full dialogue in the entire game.


But that's not old school enough! To make this game old school, you should have none of this. You must grab your note book and a pen, write stuff down! And none of this word processing on a second monitor, that destroys the immersion of the game! You must use your brain. Any simple improvements just show that you want to dumb down the game for the mass market! /sarcasm (do we have a sarcasm font?)

An in game note system would be fantastic. Especially for those players that may take a break and forget all the goings on. And it would hardly break the immersion of the game. In fact, it would only add to it, making your character even more like an adventurer/source hunter. They must keep a journal detailing what they saw and experienced.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515428
10/07/14 02:47 PM
10/07/14 02:47 PM
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Quote:
As I said, the problem with the encounter in Hiberheim is that you can meet it hours before you even know about Tenebrium or rot for the first time. I don't know what is enjoyable or "hardcore" to be forced to constantly heal a character for no apparent reason...


How do you even get to hiberheim without coming to Silverglen and there getting all the info about tenebrium and rot?
I certainly didnt see any way but to Silverglen once i left Cysael.

If on the other hand someone willingly and intentionally doesnt go to Silverglen which is where the main quest and story tells you to go, but instead turns away, takes another fork and gets to Hiberheim - then its their own bloody fault. C&C - suck it up kind of a deal.

To alleviate the problem of not even knowing what the heck is going on - a bit of appropriate info can be easily implanted in that section in various ways, to point to you that its something called Tenebrium and that the problem started in that place Silverglen, for example.

Instead of removing that whole option. Biodrone.


Quote:

It's one thing to have a super hardcore attitude but another thing to make a game really frustrating for people who find out after perhaps 10 hours of playing that they lost an item they needed for quest.


How the hell do you even loose quest items?

Ive told you already you cannot sell them, which is something you should know by now seeing how many hours youve spent into the game.

So its nothing more then personal stupidity that you wish to remove by disabling even the option of dropping quest items... ?

So you would fix stupid with stupid?

And then i would have to lug around all those items because you might accidentally drop them?

Are you insane?

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515486
10/07/14 03:42 PM
10/07/14 03:42 PM
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Agreed on just about everything. Only things I don't are pretty much because I haven't got there in the game yet.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515499
10/07/14 03:53 PM
10/07/14 03:53 PM
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Some decent quality of life stuff there, but my Number 0 (Highest priority)

0) Make co-op dialogue more cooperative!

When one player begins a conversation and the other player is within range, give the other player a pop-up that allows them to join the conversation. If they join the conversation, then they have equal chance to ask questions and select from the dialogue tree. If one player selects before the other player, they get a message like "waiting for input from other player". A random roll is made as to decide who wins. Save the rock, paper scissors for major decisions as they are now. If a player declines to join the conversation, it works like it does today.

I hate to say it, but take a look at how Bioware implemented conversations in SW:TOR. It works well mechanically.


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Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515506
10/07/14 04:01 PM
10/07/14 04:01 PM
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In general I'd just say I'm in agreement with pretty much what LordCrash states, many suggestions are playing to the choir. As for if it is fixed by Larian or a mod. A. Most people will never place a single mod ever, so if it isn't from the officials, it will never happen for them. B. Right now a lot easier said "fix it with a mod" then doing it.

Lets not kid ourselves, for how good this game is, for how long it was in development the game was still rushed. Many of Lord Crashes's suggestions are simply very standard features most games have and to me seems perfectly acceptable to ask the developer who says they will support and add to the game to list. 99% of the posters here get it, get that we lay it out for Larian to possibly play it out. And to just say "we'll mod it" at this time there is a lot of unknowns to modding this or that and how the UI was done, it isn't moddable in any normal way one would think. It may take Larian a complete rewrite of it in a different manner to make it so we can do much with it. So that leaves the ball in their court for many UI issues or some serious tutorials and improvements to the editor.

In Swen's PC Gamer article he mentions was is coming, he didn't mention Coop Dialog improvements, so I'm braced unfortunately. It could be another month reading that to get the next major patch. (With Windemere's post right prior)

Also we can't sort Items by Type because there is no Type category for items. Well Clint would say "We'll they best add Item Type's then". Not to be forgotten we want the sort order to be remembered and then automatically applied every-time we open the inventory.

To me these are the exact posts you should expect to see after a weeks worth of playing, it's what we do.

As for that 1%, I write that up as a lack of moderation on these boards, I guess there are next to no enforced rules.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 10/07/14 04:06 PM.
Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515517
10/07/14 04:08 PM
10/07/14 04:08 PM
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Quote:
13) Disable the random system for spells and ingredients at merchants

Refreshing their inventory every in-game day might be good too especially if point 10 is enacted.

I mostly agree with the rest of the other points. great list thankyou

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515540
10/07/14 04:25 PM
10/07/14 04:25 PM
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This was a good list. Hotkeys, group-stealth option, end game, all great stuff. Well done.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Horrorscope] #515549
10/07/14 04:33 PM
10/07/14 04:33 PM
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LordCrash Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Horrorscope

Also we can't sort Items by Type because there is no Type category for items. Well Clint would say "We'll they best add Item Type's then". Not to be forgotten we want the sort order to be remembered and then automatically applied every-time we open the inventory.

H, I'm not sure about that. The inventory has different tabs, for example for "consumables" or "magical" stuff. So there must be some sort of item type system working in the background which decides whether an item is shown in the respective tab or not. From there it shouldn't (as far as my little coding knowledge holds up) be a too big task to make item tpye sorting in the main inventory tab possible... wink

Last edited by LordCrash; 10/07/14 04:35 PM.

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Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515551
10/07/14 04:34 PM
10/07/14 04:34 PM
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So many new posts... all so long too. Well here's my bet. First post up to LordCrash's reply... then I'll see if I post another thing on all the stuff after that...

@ LordofBones; It's part of the game, yes. But you fail to see the difference between "a means to an end" (the system used) and making the whole game revolving around getting better gear (Diablo, Torchlight, MMO's).
As for the unique armor, it's the "Orc Armor". It comes together with an Unique Helmet to boot.

Now Crash's major reply;

1. I prefer 'to-the-point' to needless verbose, yes. If something needs to be verbose it are the conversations themselves, NOT the journal. I've yet to see a quest where I need more information from the questlog.

3. Well, while the use of repair got nerfed into oblivion (bit too much if you ask me, even if I'm never been a fan of durability). Identifying was awesome in Baldur's Gate and such, heavily toned down in modern games... sadly, including Original Sin. Still, leveling it up to get access to better items is nice rather than having them just being given, and identifying them piece by piece gives the old-school feel and that your character actually *does* something rather than the inpersonal 'click button, proceed' MMO-mentality of a repair-all button has. As such, yes, it reduces clicks. But in doing so does far far more than that in actual consistency damage. That enough of an explenation?

4. Yes, but sneaking is still a skill depending who's better at it. Also, cones of light. How are you doing that with a whole party. Sneaking is by it's very definition a solo task... it's mindboggling why anyone would even *want* the entire team to do so to me. What purpose does it suit? I see none. If it's because you want to easily sneak 4 people past some guard and don't want to spend 4x the time, well... that's sneaking for you. It's by its very definition not used to get from A to B fast. And having 4 people sneak at once is just asking for havoc with detection and all, gameplay and code-wise.
And AFAIK if you press C even if linked the person goes solo (since, you know, sneaking). Do you really want people to unlink and re-link everytime they just want someone to sneak about to say, steal stuff. It would have driven me crazy in Cyseal alone, and I didn't even go loco stealing everything smirk
Result; Rejection.

5. Aaaaand... you can exchange characters in Co-op. Tell me, what does your linked gold system do if person A and B switch around who controls Madora and Jahan. Thought about that?

6. Teleporting is pressing that cute button at the right side of the screen, allowing you easy access to pretty much everywhere you want to go. I suggest using it, saves a lot of travel time!

7. That's just the issue of knife's not appearing in the ingredients tab as well as weapons. They fix that, all problems go away, and there's no need to adjust the all tab to suit a bug of another tab.
Me; I prefer solving problems at it's root, rather than leaving that intact and work out different sollutions around it. Makes for messy stuff. Fix, don't patch. Anyway, next subject...

9. So basically what I stated/suggested? Then we are in agreement then? Except of course you want the cake and eat it too (character switch wont get stats of that char, so perhaps higher prices due to no bartering/less reputation etc.) while I definitely want character switch in trading be just that... a character switch.

10. No, you're definitely talking about Oblivion style "This is questitem... we'll keep it safe for you!"
Information is properly given... all items are for subquests (so even if you screw up you can still finish the mainquest, just not that subquest... here it comes; PAY ATTENTION. Instead of making the game pay attention for you. As Hiver said the game actually does a lot of handholding in this department already, there's no need to take it to the next level to mock people's intelligence, or apparently, lack thereof...

12. "I want the loottables altered to give me better loot!"
Well, why don't you say so. Here's a modded +100 to all. Enjoy your improved system. Ugh, the whole giving a finger and taking the whole hand, never good enough. Making loot 'better' will just launch an upwards beat, ruining any difficulty at all since people will get overpowered. But since you just want better loot, you probably don't care.

13. I've never been fan of respeccing in the first place. If it actually has a tangible downside (unlike all other games it gets in due to people not wanting to stick by the consequences of their choices), I'm all FOR it, rather than removing it. So yeah, nothing wrong there.

15. Cause in Cyseal it's not explained yet, nor have the counters, yet over there you've been well informed about it AND have actual cures. Not to mention a boatload more HP?
But strawmen more please.

16. I don't think you know what I mean with "bugfix, not suggestion"... I agree, there's nothing to say about it otherwise since it's a bug, not something subjectable.
Short temper much?

17. There's the tutorial dungeon? Let me know when you arrive in Athkatla in Baldur's Gate II that it pointed you exactly where to go rather than leave you in the dark with just the inn mention (like here the legion mention). Oh wait, there wasn't?
And no-one cried out loud on forums demanding so.

19. Well, I did read the title and the few replies after it mentioning "yeah, 19&20, I want to do stuff after boss"... so yeah, maybe I interpretated it wrong due to those posts. I don't object to more hidden content or side-content, doesn't need to be bosses though. But seriously, who WOULDN'T say yes to more content. The downside of that is of course developers need to make it (without getting paid for it if it's patched in instead of expansion/DLC), and whoever works on that can't on resolving issues in the existing content. So gamer wise; "Doh, yeah, of course I want that" but from a dev it's a more weighed decision wheter it's a good idea or not.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515554
10/07/14 04:37 PM
10/07/14 04:37 PM
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The major flaw in this thread: assuming that hand-holding and stream-lining are necessarily bad, instead of objectively analyzing the issues. Oh, and ad hominem arguments.

In fact, a game with no hand-holding whatsoever is a game that can only be beaten by trial and error. What is relevant in this discussion is what amount of hand-holding is best suited for what Larian is trying to achieve with this game, and the argument "they were aiming for an old school feel therefore no hand-holding!" is a poor one because that would only make sense if old games were perfect. They were anything but, and some were purposely designed to be esoteric so as to artificially increase the length of a play-through (due to storage deficiencies; I'm sure some of you remember what it was like having to juggle several floppy disks).

Several old school RPGs did not even have a map, and forced you to memorize labyrinthic areas or draw them yourself. D:OS would undoubtedly be more hardcore if it had no world or mini-map -- and if I were like Hiver I would call you all devolved fools for not criticizing the maps -- but would it make it a more enjoyable game? That's what you have to ask yourselves when you think about game design decisions: how does this make the game more fun? Why is the game better for it? Not: is this how they did it in the 90s?

With all that said, here is what I think about some of the OP's points.

1) New and improved journal for better orientation/questing

Imagine a chess game where each square of the board were stored in a separate part of the room. Would it make the game more challenging? Absolutely. Would the game be better off for it? No, because the challenge and allure in chess is not in how you obtain the information in the ongoing game, it is how you interpret that information and draw upon your memory bank of previous games to plan your next move. Making it more difficult to obtain the information would add a new layer of complexity which is incongruous with the game of chess.

Likewise, in D:OS, the spreading out of information creates artificial difficulty which you might expect in a puzzle game, but not a role-playing game. It doesn't help the game any when you happen to miss one book and get stuck on a puzzle for half an hour, when the information in said book could instead be displayed in the puzzle's area either through text or some other, more creative fashion. Same goes for the quests and the information required to progress in them. The fun is in assembling the puzzle (a clever puzzle), not searching every nook and cranny in your room for the last remaining pieces.

2) Hotkey for the hotbar and more hotbar space

This has been widely requested and it is difficult to argue against.

3) Add "repair all" and "identify all" for the whole party

Indeed this is not fun because everything is done through the UI, so immersion is not even a factor here. If you could drag an item from one character onto another in the game world, and a context menu appeared, with the option to identify or repair, then I would argue that your proposal would be detrimental to the game.

4) Apply sneak command to every linked party member

Agreed. Clicking on each character and activating stealth is repetitive and monotonous when you have a full party. Imagine if you had to order each character to move individually. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that linked characters should be smart enough to sneak when someone else in the link does it. Besides, it doesn't help immersion any when your characters enter sneak mode one by one instead of simultaneously.

5) Enable shared gold between linked characters

Again, the current mechanism forces mindless UI work which further distracts you from the actual game world, so I agree with your suggestion. I suspect that it is the way it is due to co-op, and they simply haven't gotten around to making this happen yet.

6) Enable walking on the map

Agreed, mostly because this game has so much back-tracking that it would be great to occupy my brain during long journeys with more interesting things such as reading the books.

7) Add inventory sorting filter for "item type"

There are too many usability issues with the inventory as it is and I really don't want to go into that right now as it would warrant a whole post.

8) Relocate crafting/blacksmithing notifications to the actual inventory screen

Agreed, but it's a tiny issue.

9) Display equipment comparison of each party member in bartering

Agreed. Can you tell I hate fumbling with poorly designed UIs yet?

10) Make quest items unsaleable and undisposable and give them a special tab

Wait, you can sell essential items? I seriously doubt that.

11) Disable crafting if no further improvement is possible

I have little experience with the crafting system for reasons which I will not expound here so I can't comment on this.

12) Add legendary/unique stuff to boss drops and treasure chests

I'm of the opinion that fixed loot is a terrible idea but I don't have time to go into that here.

As for the dual-tier proposal, that would only make not finding a useful high-tier item on a boss hurt you much more than it does now. I'm assuming that they will eventually fix the fact that you can simply reload the game to get a new item roll, as that has no place in any serious RPG.

That's all the time I've got for now. Sorry.

Last edited by artemis42; 10/07/14 04:49 PM.
Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Hassat Hunter] #515563
10/07/14 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hassat Hunter


@ LordofBones; It's part of the game, yes. But you fail to see the difference between "a means to an end" (the system used) and making the whole game revolving around getting better gear (Diablo, Torchlight, MMO's).
As for the unique armor, it's the "Orc Armor". It comes together with an Unique Helmet to boot.



It already does. If you can't burn bosses quickly enough, you're in trouble.

Also, I'd forgotten about the Orc armor, but I've seen no other armor drops nor heard reports about them. I'm guessing Larian overlooked them...and a glance at the game's files tells me I'm right.

There is no other unique armor in the game.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515573
10/07/14 04:56 PM
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Quote:
One of the reasons to play an RPG is for the loot.

In a properly made RPG (Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment); Nope, it's the LAST reason you would play them. Don't confuse RPG's with Diablo-esque action RPG's or MMORPG's (can't call those RPG's really).

Quote:
Legendary and unique are not the same thing.

Unique was white in the beta, before they became brownish in the final release. Orc Armor is brown, so yes, Unique. The easiest way to differenciate Unique is that it has a name (rather than prefix, item name, suffix system well known from Diable). And yes, they have fixed pre-generated stats.

And you don't really need to play the full game to talk about mechanics, really. Story is another thing entirely, but I avoid that for spoilers... not all of us can play hours a day.

Quote:
It concerns the cat in the inn.

He just says he lost it on a beach. There are 3 of those in Cyseal. And the item in question is on none of them. While it's a hint, it's definitely not a locationindicator, you just need to stumble on it really.

Unlike modern RPG's where it's A-B-C-D-E-F and clear indicators where to go, here there's a lot more instances of you know what to do, but you're not specifically told where or how, find out yourself. For example the murder quest can advance in multiple ways, and since it's an investigation it makes no sense to have the journal point out where to go (while modern games do, thank you modern generation). Heck, you don't even know yourself, you just explore around and finds little snippets and eventually form a plan based on that to proceed.
Good RPG gameplay!

There's nothing wrong with giving an ingame wordpad. Saves the environment, so I can't object with that wink
(personally I tab out of the game to actual wordpad, but I do that for keeping track of bugs and stuff, not talks).
Quote:
After all its just a small text editor... how hard could that be? Right?

Oh god, don't talk me about "how hard can that be?" or "it's easy to implement". People playing really have no clue in all those cases, and nothing worse for developers to constently get 'it's easy to add' for the most ridicilous complicated stuff. Even if it seems easy or minor on paper. The sooner people would stop saying such stuff to devs on their boards the better...
Quote:
H, I'm not sure about that. The inventory has different tabs, for example for "consumables" or "magical" stuff. So there must be some sort of item type system working in the background which decides whether an item is shown in the respective tab or not. From there it shouldn't (as far as my little coding knowledge holds up) be a too big task to make item tpye sorting in the main inventory tab possible... wink

Except it would show exactly in the order of the tabs (so armor and weapons still get fumbled together). So I ask again, what would be the point of that if we have tabs already. If it's for stuff you mentioned like knife on pillow being hard due to no knife on ingredients, a better fix would be to add it there (like how repair hammers and identifying glasses appear amongst weapons).
Again, it's working AROUND a problem, rather than fixing the problem. And in the end doesn't help much to made the UI apparently less "cluncky" than actually fixing it would. Cause really, do you prefer going to 100 items to combine them or 30? Your suggestion is basically asking for #1 and I say "don't bother, if you fix the problem, there's no need for it, and you've wasted valuable development time. Time that could even went to fixing the problem"

EDIT:
Quote:
If you don't burn bosses quick enough you're in trouble

Ugh, ugh, ugh... MMO terminology... make it stop.
And I've yet to see a boss where you need to kill them quickly actually. There's healing. There are no stupid MMO enrage timers... if played properly you can infinitely hold ANY fight (including bosses) and have no issues at all. What sort of trouble do you mean?

Last edited by Hassat Hunter; 10/07/14 05:05 PM. Reason: New "D:OS is Loot" post to respond to
Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515574
10/07/14 04:57 PM
10/07/14 04:57 PM
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Horrorscope Offline
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Horrorscope

Also we can't sort Items by Type because there is no Type category for items. Well Clint would say "We'll they best add Item Type's then". Not to be forgotten we want the sort order to be remembered and then automatically applied every-time we open the inventory.

H, I'm not sure about that. The inventory has different tabs, for example for "consumables" or "magical" stuff. So there must be some sort of item type system working in the background which decides whether an item is shown in the respective tab or not. From there it shouldn't (as far as my little coding knowledge holds up) be a too big task to make item tpye sorting in the main inventory tab possible... wink


Yeah to be honest... I was just going off someone's logic. "No can do because it isn't categorized", well then Categorize! If it already is, all the better... as Starsky says "DOOOO IT".

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515575
10/07/14 05:03 PM
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Some old school games are extremely fun.

just because you don't necessarily enjoy them doesn't mean that no one is allowed to enjoy them. If you don't like learning things through trial and error, that's fine. No one is asking you too. But you don't have to play this game either. It's completely unreasonable to expect a studio to make a game exclusively for you.

Do you know that are modern games where you still have to draw your own maps (Etrian Odyssey)? Just because you don't like cartography doesn't make it a bad game mechanic. There are also modern games where you learn exclusively through trial and error (Dark Souls).

If every game was made with your exact criteria we'd have a pretty boring world, just the same if every game was made with my criteria. Thankfully they aren't, and I like the variety of games that exist out there.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Hassat Hunter] #515577
10/07/14 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hassat Hunter
Quote:
One of the reasons to play an RPG is for the loot.

In a properly made RPG (Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment); Nope, it's the LAST reason you would play them. Don't confuse RPG's with Diablo-esque action RPG's or MMORPG's (can't call those RPG's really).


Nope.

Unique, interesting loot is part and parcel of RPGs. The Staff of the Magi, Flail of Ages, Circlet of Netheril, Robe of the Archmagi, Cloak of Balduran and so on are part and parcel of the BG2 game.

PST is a whole other story. Combat wasn't really part of it the way it was in Arcanum and the other IE games.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515582
10/07/14 05:09 PM
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I love how lots of people here are like,, devs do this, it's totes easy so I want now

Go mod the game yourself if you think it's so easy.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: LordCrash] #515601
10/07/14 05:29 PM
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Ok, this post forced me to register on these forums. Yes to 1-18, 100%.. I cannot comment on 19 and 20, because I am only 20 hours in the game.

And I seriously do not care about the "has to be because old school" nonsense. I am playing CRPGs since 1984, it's my favourite genre. And those changes will not destroy anything, they will just add some serious usability to this masterpiece.

Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Hassat Hunter] #515602
10/07/14 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: Hassat Hunter

1. I prefer 'to-the-point' to needless verbose, yes. If something needs to be verbose it are the conversations themselves, NOT the journal. I've yet to see a quest where I need more information from the questlog.

Well, with older dialogues disappearing there isn't much you can do to store information other than writing it down for yourself. That might have some appeal but it's imo the wrong way. There is a reason why it's a computer RPG and not an offline PnP RPG. A CRPG should use the strengths of its system/platform and not deny it. There is simply no need to write down stuff if the PC could easily store EVERY dialogue (and not only the past 10 conversations or only the conversations you had until the last loading) for you to re-read and re-consider. My suggestions with a "diary journal" is just one way to give people immersive information without beating a certain solution in their face. You would possibly understand that if you'd played Inquisitor. Let's put it that way: even with the diary it was in many cases much more difficult to find quest solutions (because quests were often much "deeper" with a lot more writing involved than in D:OS) but it was kind of immersive to always have access to some journal that could give you the right hints to find your way. But you don't necessarily have to go down that route. I would already be happy if dialogues AND notes would be stored in a journal-kind-of-menu without the tedious need to go through inventory management every here and then and to write down on stuff...

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3. Well, while the use of repair got nerfed into oblivion (bit too much if you ask me, even if I'm never been a fan of durability). Identifying was awesome in Baldur's Gate and such, heavily toned down in modern games... sadly, including Original Sin. Still, leveling it up to get access to better items is nice rather than having them just being given, and identifying them piece by piece gives the old-school feel and that your character actually *does* something rather than the inpersonal 'click button, proceed' MMO-mentality of a repair-all button has. As such, yes, it reduces clicks. But in doing so does far far more than that in actual consistency damage. That enough of an explenation?

Well, if you want identifying in just out of nostalgia, I can understand that. There is nothing wrong if you are reminded at BG2 every time you press the identifying system. But others are not, and that's not because I'm less old-school than you. BG2 is my favorite game of all times (so far) and I love that game to its teeth. But as you mentioned correctly, the identifying system is already different than in these old games. Some of the flavour of the system in Infinity Engine games was that you couldn't always use the ability limitless. You were forced to make decisions and letting stuff identified by a merchant could be incredibly costly. In D:OS there is nothing like that. You can identify most things

1) without limits in numbers
2) without putting much or any points in the skill (because of gear)
3) extremely cheap at merchants

This is nothing like BG2 and also quite different to Diablo with its consumable scrolls. The system was already "toned down" that much that it's imo rendered almost pointless with every trade-off taken away. So either Larian should imho change the system completely, making it more meaningful like in the old games of our youth OR they should make it at least less tedious

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4. Yes, but sneaking is still a skill depending who's better at it. Also, cones of light. How are you doing that with a whole party. Sneaking is by it's very definition a solo task... it's mindboggling why anyone would even *want* the entire team to do so to me. What purpose does it suit? I see none. If it's because you want to easily sneak 4 people past some guard and don't want to spend 4x the time, well... that's sneaking for you. It's by its very definition not used to get from A to B fast. And having 4 people sneak at once is just asking for havoc with detection and all, gameplay and code-wise.
And AFAIK if you press C even if linked the person goes solo (since, you know, sneaking). Do you really want people to unlink and re-link everytime they just want someone to sneak about to say, steal stuff. It would have driven me crazy in Cyseal alone, and I didn't even go loco stealing everything smirk
Result; Rejection.

Well, in my game the person who goes into sneaking mode doesn't delink automatically from the party. I have indeed delink them manually every time I want to sneak. But I agree, that this automation delink would make sense (much more than it does right now). So either that or every linked character should go into sneaking (which might sound unreasonable to some but since this game embraces freedom it should be up to the player to decide whether this makes sense or not).

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5. Aaaaand... you can exchange characters in Co-op. Tell me, what does your linked gold system do if person A and B switch around who controls Madora and Jahan. Thought about that?

Well, imo there is no need for Madore or Jahan to own any gold imo. You control a party and not single characters. It's not like Madora or Jahan need a few coins to buy themselves some bread to survive from time to time. If you exchange companions in co-op there wouldn't be any gold transfer involved at all.
The whole money system like it works now is just bad imo. It adds nothing to the game, neither more immersion nor more usability. On the opposite, it just makes barterting tedious. There is imo no reason why not to change the system to a shared gold stash for the whole party not based on the inventory.

The only thing which makes sense is that you can grab money bags on the battlefield and from containers (for co-op).

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6. Teleporting is pressing that cute button at the right side of the screen, allowing you easy access to pretty much everywhere you want to go. I suggest using it, saves a lot of travel time!

That has nothing to do with what I've said. Of course I've talked about distances which are shorter than a teleport travel. Again I suggest: play the game for some 50 or 100 hours more and you'll likely begin to understand. wink

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7. That's just the issue of knife's not appearing in the ingredients tab as well as weapons. They fix that, all problems go away, and there's no need to adjust the all tab to suit a bug of another tab.
Me; I prefer solving problems at it's root, rather than leaving that intact and work out different sollutions around it. Makes for messy stuff. Fix, don't patch. Anyway, next subject...

That's just not solving the problem at it's root. Weapons are no ingredients. Armours are no ingredients.
I honestly don't know what your problem would be with a "item type" sorting. Is that some weir kind "objection out of principle"?

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9. So basically what I stated/suggested? Then we are in agreement then? Except of course you want the cake and eat it too (character switch wont get stats of that char, so perhaps higher prices due to no bartering/less reputation etc.) while I definitely want character switch in trading be just that... a character switch.[/Qoute]
If you can just switch characters in the bartering screen there is no reason to level up a character in bartering at all. It's really beyond me why you defend the identifying system and object an repair/identify all system but at the same you propose to break with the same principle in bartering, rendering the bartering skills useless. Also it's the complete opposite of what you've said to the last point "solve the problem at its root". Changing characters completely in bartering is not the problem of the root because there is in fact just one character bartering at a time. You could do something else with the other characters at the same time anyway...

[Quote]10. No, you're definitely talking about Oblivion style "This is questitem... we'll keep it safe for you!"
Information is properly given... all items are for subquests (so even if you screw up you can still finish the mainquest, just not that subquest... here it comes; PAY ATTENTION. Instead of making the game pay attention for you. As Hiver said the game actually does a lot of handholding in this department already, there's no need to take it to the next level to mock people's intelligence, or apparently, lack thereof...

Simply not true. The reveal scroll for Evelyn's cave for example is part of the main quest and not part of some side quest. Also you should reconsider what intelligence actually means. I will remember you about your ultra hardcore attitude the next time you will ever search for help in the forum. But that would also be totally against the "Players are not stupid. They must find everything out for their own. If they made a mistake early on which kind of breaks their game some hours later they deserve no better, these stupid peasants. Only intelligent people, people who don't make any mistakes should be entitled to play this game." Sorry, but that is just elitism at its best and has nothing to do with what Larian actually wants to reach. They want to give players the opportunity to solve puzzles on their own, to explore on their own, to find out stuff by doing. They surely don't want to punish players for little mistakes they made hours ago. There is a big difference between making a mistake in tacitcs and losing a fight for example and losing a quest item that you might need 10 hours later. The first one is a good old-school mechanic because it forces you to adapt your strategy without punishing you over the board while the second one is just a mechanic that could easily lead to frustration without having any benefit whatsoever (maybe apart from the elitist feeling of some hardcore fans that they play a hardcore game which can lead ot frustration to other players.) Bad or clunky design is never old-school or hardcore, it's just bad design. wink

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12. "I want the loottables altered to give me better loot!"
Well, why don't you say so. Here's a modded +100 to all. Enjoy your improved system. Ugh, the whole giving a finger and taking the whole hand, never good enough. Making loot 'better' will just launch an upwards beat, ruining any difficulty at all since people will get overpowered. But since you just want better loot, you probably don't care.

And again pure misunderstanding. I begin to think you just want to be against everything I say instead of being a bit open-minded and think about it first. If I really wanted more OP items how would that fit to my point 20 in which I criticise too easy endgame content? Yeah, doesn't make any sense. What I want instead is a system that makes "normal" loot less valuable/good as it is now and "boss drop/treasure chest" loot as valuable/good at it is now. The point of my suggestion is that there should be a difference between normal stuff you can find and epic loot that rewards you for finding a treasure or killing a difficult boss. It doesn't mean that you should get loot that kills the balance of the game.

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13. I've never been fan of respeccing in the first place. If it actually has a tangible downside (unlike all other games it gets in due to people not wanting to stick by the consequences of their choices), I'm all FOR it, rather than removing it. So yeah, nothing wrong there.

Ah, I see, the hardcore attitude again. Why giving player options if you are happy already? Also the "tangible downside" is neither transparent nor adequat in any form. Even a "hard" game should be honest about the consequences of its systems. And then the problem with random loot/merchant offers isn't solved at all. If a system motivates a lot of players to exploit it or if a system kind of forces players to exploit it (the random item system) that's an indication of a failure by design...

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15. Cause in Cyseal it's not explained yet, nor have the counters, yet over there you've been well informed about it AND have actual cures. Not to mention a boatload more HP?
But strawmen more please.

It's also not necessarily explained in Hiberheim. That's the whole point of my suggestion, you know. You can easily go to Hiberheim without ever hearing of rot or Tenebrium before. At least that's my experience since I visited Silverglen not before I cleared all Hiberheim. Also the enemy levels clearly indicate that you should visit Hiberheim first before you for example clear the Luculla mines. You even meet an NPC at the first entering of Luculla Forest who directly leads you to the White Witch's cabin. And since that is also the main quest there is from a story perspective no reason or at least no need to visit Silverglen before Hiberheim.

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16. I don't think you know what I mean with "bugfix, not suggestion"... I agree, there's nothing to say about it otherwise since it's a bug, not something subjectable.
Short temper much?

How do you know it's a bug? But even if it's just a bug I thought it's worth to point it out. I don't see any reason why you instead have to criticise me for that in my own topic. Being hostile all the way?

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17. There's the tutorial dungeon? Let me know when you arrive in Athkatla in Baldur's Gate II that it pointed you exactly where to go rather than leave you in the dark with just the inn mention (like here the legion mention). Oh wait, there wasn't?
And no-one cried out loud on forums demanding so.

You have a point there. But in my experience the journal in BG2 gave a lot more information throughout your quest than D:OS. I also don't see your big issue with adding a dialogue line for people who want a bit more information about the region. How would that make your game inferior in any way? I really don't get it...

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19. Well, I did read the title and the few replies after it mentioning "yeah, 19&20, I want to do stuff after boss"... so yeah, maybe I interpretated it wrong due to those posts. I don't object to more hidden content or side-content, doesn't need to be bosses though. But seriously, who WOULDN'T say yes to more content. The downside of that is of course developers need to make it (without getting paid for it if it's patched in instead of expansion/DLC), and whoever works on that can't on resolving issues in the existing content. So gamer wise; "Doh, yeah, of course I want that" but from a dev it's a more weighed decision wheter it's a good idea or not.

Well, that's up to Larian to decide whether it's wort or not to include it. If they think so, more power to them. I'm only giving feedback here. And my point was that these high level enemies were some of the core experiences I even remember today from playing e.g. BG2. They had some fascniation because you always wanted to beat them. That was another "meta-level", you didn't only got stronger to continue in the storyline but also to finally get the means to kill them. Part of the fun was that you could find them quite early on. In D:OS you can't really find really "high level" enemies until you enter their linear story area. That is kind of disappointing and even takes away from the immersive feel because every region is stricly structured in enemy levels. There is also this sense of danger missing when entering a dungeon because you always know that the enemies are never more than two or three levels above you and that you would have to kill them anyway sooner of later. I miss these totally optional dungeons with high level bosses which don't interfere with the main story or important side quests in any way. In D:OS instead you will meet almost every enemy sooner or later in the game which imo has a bit too linear feel... wink

Last edited by LordCrash; 10/07/14 05:32 PM.

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Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Songbird] #515606
10/07/14 05:38 PM
10/07/14 05:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,801
Germany
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LordCrash  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Songbird
I love how lots of people here are like,, devs do this, it's totes easy so I want now

Go mod the game yourself if you think it's so easy.


Strange. I only see people discussing what could improve the game (or not). I haven't read even a single post (ok, I don't know what Hiver wrote since I ignore him) that DEMANDED anything from Larian.

It's just a list of things which I've mentioned during my experience with the game and which I wanted to write down to give Larian some feedback.

Why do you think Swen loves Kickstarter and Early Access so much? It's because of the feedback, yes. It's because people write down and explain what they think could make the game even better. Larian embrace that kind of feedback and they actually want us to do so.

Nobody here said that many things are "easy" or anything. We only give feedback. It's totally up to Larian to decide whether something is worth the time or money or not. Only they have that specific inside.


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Re: 20 points to make a great game even better [Re: Songbird] #515610
10/07/14 05:44 PM
10/07/14 05:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,801
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LordCrash Offline OP

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LordCrash  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Songbird
Some old school games are extremely fun.

just because you don't necessarily enjoy them doesn't mean that no one is allowed to enjoy them. If you don't like learning things through trial and error, that's fine. No one is asking you too. But you don't have to play this game either. It's completely unreasonable to expect a studio to make a game exclusively for you.

Wait? Where did I say that I don't like old-school games? I also wasn't asking to completely change the game design and catering to casuals or whatever. I was asking for what I think good (in that case even better) game design would be and I asked for more possibilites for different kind of people. I gave feedback based on my own experiences and I try to find the words why I think so. I don't think I have to justify myself for that to anyone here tbh...

If you really want to discuss the topic seriously, please go into each point and don't make some bland generalizations and accusations in my direction... hug

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If every game was made with your exact criteria we'd have a pretty boring world, just the same if every game was made with my criteria. Thankfully they aren't, and I like the variety of games that exist out there.

What is my exact criteria?


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