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amazing game. But... a few suggestions #549699
02/09/14 10:02 AM
02/09/14 10:02 AM
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Ellderon Offline OP
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A truly amazing game, a shiny jewle, but one that requires a bit more polishing.

so le'ts get right to the point:

- CRAFTING - the current implementation is luckluster. The requirement that only one result is possible from a single combo is limiting. It doesn't make sense that you can only make swords from iron, but axes only from steel. Isn't steel superior to iron?
It doesn't make sense that you cannot determine what to craft when you do have more possible outcomes (combining two branches)
The solution is obvious: allow the player to select the resulting items when there are multiple possiblities. There is already a pop up window to confirm the crafting and select quantity. There is more then enough room on the screen to set up other possible combinations.

Thus, 2 iron = 1 steel (since steel is superior, the exchange rage seems OK; plus you're bound to loose some mass when you're after purity) Making steel weapons generally counts as having
higher crafting/blacksmithing - in other words, you get a better weapons.

2x iron or steel = axe, mace or sword
2x large iron or steel = tow-handed version of the same
branch+steel = hammer?

alternatively, a minecraft-like 3x3 grid might be even better. There no shame in stealing a better system.


- ITEM RESTRICTIONS - I hate escalating restriction. They provide NO gameplay benefit whatsoever. Higher level items requireing higher STR (or whatever other stat) makes generally little sense, since items of the same type are roughly equal in requirements. Better two-handed sword aren't heavier - quite the contrary. Heavy items, be it weapons or armor, were either ceremonial (and thus not mean for combat), or for jousting.
Furthermore, there is no joy and advantage in finding a higher lvl item early, when you can't use, but have to wait (by which point you'll probably find something even better).
Artificial restrictions like that add nothing, but take away a lot.


- CRAFTING EASE - if you're already having a crafting area, best it have ALL you need IN ONE PLACE. Sprinking things around means a lot of runing around and going from area to area.
Silvergreen doesn't have a wheatstone for example. The overn in Cyseal? You cannot use it since it isn't yours.
Your own anvil and wheatstone? It's in the Hall of Heroes, which means 2 loading screen to get there... And once you do, no furnace and no storage chest for crafting supplies.

Last edited by Ellderon; 02/09/14 10:05 AM.
Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #549701
02/09/14 10:21 AM
02/09/14 10:21 AM
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teardropmina Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellderon

- ITEM RESTRICTIONS - I hate escalating restriction. They provide NO gameplay benefit whatsoever. Higher level items requireing higher STR (or whatever other stat) makes generally little sense....


item restrictions make perfect sense and a must in RPG.

well...it's common sense in RPG that weapons and armors have restrictions according to particular class/build. higher level weapons/armors/items are more powerful, and you can only equip/use them when you're stronger, more agile, or more adapt in arcane arts...

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #549711
02/09/14 11:37 AM
02/09/14 11:37 AM
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Ellderon Offline OP
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There is no "MUST".
And just because many other RPGs do it doesn't mean it makes sense.



How does it make sense that you got to have 20 STR to wear full plate armor n0.28172, but you had no trouble wearing the other 100 full plates before with STR 10?
How does LEVEL make sense as a requirement for a weapon to begin with?

For a skill - I could understand that. You need experience to master skills. But not items that oyu already know how to use.

If I already know how to swing a magical sword, then why am I suddenly unable to swing magical sword no.4356? Did I suddenly forget how swords are used? How is that sword different from others to prevent usage?


Common sense in RPG is a rarity.
So no, it does NOT make sense. It's just a leftover mechanic that is useb without actual thought. Peopel used it before and now poeple accept it as standard, never brining into question it's use or worth.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #549715
02/09/14 12:04 PM
02/09/14 12:04 PM
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teardropmina Offline
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every RPG has item restrictions, implementation differs according to its core rules.

D:OS has one of the variations, which Larian love. most loot heavy RPGs have character level as item requirement: you suppose to use more power items when you get to higher level.

don't drag "real world" sense into game core rules, we're in a world of void dragon and crazy wizard.

to your STR-weapon question: the game is telling you that if you're not serious about a fighter character, you don't deserve that lvl 20 sword:)

btw, don't like such game rules? mod it.



Last edited by teardropmina; 02/09/14 12:05 PM.
Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #550132
04/09/14 06:47 AM
04/09/14 06:47 AM
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Ellderon Offline OP
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Not true. There are RPG with no artifical restrictions whatsoever.
You have two kinds of items restrictions:
Those that are based on common sense and those that are based on pure mechanical rules with no connection to the world or lore.

Is there any explanation provided for why a character that is LVL10 can't use a LVL14 weapons?
Do levels exist a real thing in that world? Nothing is mentioned or implied.


Such POINTLESS restrictions are just simply bad mechanics and bad gameplay design. Again, I'm asking you to tell me what purpose those restrictions serve? What do they ad to the gameplay? How do they make the game better?

The answer is that they don't.
And yes, I will drag in real world because all fantasy rests on those fundations.

Even the rediculous explanation that "you're not serious about a fighter character" doesn't hold water. All it does is restrict you in how to build a character. Dump all points into one stats. Others become completely useless. The "One True Build" school of design is outdated and flawed.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #550198
04/09/14 01:10 PM
04/09/14 01:10 PM
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Provi Offline
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Yep this is the type of game that has things like item restrictions "based on pure mechanical rules with no connection to the world or lore". Believe it or not, that's something people are generally okay with, because it puts gameplay and functionality above 'realism' because realism clearly is not the goal of this RPG. Building the game like this very much caters to "common sense" because that's how RPGs have been built and that's what people expect.

What's not common sense is having realism as your sole argument for turning a game's design on its head.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #550199
04/09/14 01:10 PM
04/09/14 01:10 PM
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Saishy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellderon
Not true. There are RPG with no artifical restrictions whatsoever.
You have two kinds of items restrictions:
Those that are based on common sense and those that are based on pure mechanical rules with no connection to the world or lore.

Is there any explanation provided for why a character that is LVL10 can't use a LVL14 weapons?
Do levels exist a real thing in that world? Nothing is mentioned or implied.


Such POINTLESS restrictions are just simply bad mechanics and bad gameplay design. Again, I'm asking you to tell me what purpose those restrictions serve? What do they ad to the gameplay? How do they make the game better?

The answer is that they don't.
And yes, I will drag in real world because all fantasy rests on those fundations.

Even the rediculous explanation that "you're not serious about a fighter character" doesn't hold water. All it does is restrict you in how to build a character. Dump all points into one stats. Others become completely useless. The "One True Build" school of design is outdated and flawed.

They add decisions, and decision making is the core of any game, way more in RPGs.

Why do you need STR to wield a sword? Because you have to decide between putting points in STR to wield better strength-based items or put points in other attributes.

Does it make sense? No it doesn't! But so does not Weapons giving you points in attributes, like why holding a sword makes me stronger? And why holding a sword makes me even better at wielding swords?! (like a two-handed bonus)

Are there alternatives? Yes there are, but when you have items that gives you bonus to important stats, it does make sense to require stats to wield them, because that way you can control the flow of the game.

Last edited by Saishy; 04/09/14 07:55 PM.
Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #550210
04/09/14 02:49 PM
04/09/14 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ellderon
Is there any explanation provided for why a character that is LVL10 can't use a LVL14 weapons?
Do levels exist a real thing in that world? Nothing is mentioned or implied.


What are you talking about? There is no "level restriction" on weapons in this game. You can use any weapon, provided you have the strength/dexterity to use it. However, using a higher level weapon will require more AP to attack.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Provi] #550391
05/09/14 10:12 AM
05/09/14 10:12 AM
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Ellderon Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Provi
Yep this is the type of game that has things like item restrictions "based on pure mechanical rules with no connection to the world or lore". Believe it or not, that's something people are generally okay with, because it puts gameplay and functionality above 'realism' because realism clearly is not the goal of this RPG. Building the game like this very much caters to "common sense" because that's how RPGs have been built and that's what people expect.


What gameplay functionality?

I asked - what does this system bring to the table? How do these restrictions enchance gameplay?
Unless you cannot elaborate that, you have no argument.

That's how RPG's have been built? Yes it is. Do you always do something just because people have been doing it before you?
Past things and practices can be great, but they can also be crap. A bad legacy that doesn't die simply because it's become so common everyone got used to it. Kinda like if you lived in a sewer, you'd get used to the smell of feces and a sewer without that smell would feel wrong.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Saishy] #550395
05/09/14 10:30 AM
05/09/14 10:30 AM
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Posts: 76
Ellderon Offline OP
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Ellderon  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Saishy

They add decisions, and decision making is the core of any game, way more in RPGs.


What decisions? There is no decision.

Quote:

Why do you need STR to wield a sword? Because you have to decide between putting points in STR to wield better strength-based items or put points in other attributes.


given that STR increases your damage output AND carry capacity, there is already incentive enough to put points into it.

For a decision to be meaningful, both options have to be equally tempting. And they are not. Everyone and their dog makes fighters by pumping STR and mages by pumping INT because the entire game is practically herding you to build that kind of a character.


Quote:

Does it make sense? No it doesn't! But so does not Weapons giving you points in attributes, like why holding a sword makes me stronger? And why holding a sword makes me even better at wielding swords?! (like a two-handed bonus)


That actually makes sense. Enchantment. Soul of a swordmaster bound to the sword? Etc..
However, why exactly stronger enchanted swords weigh more...that doesn't make sense. Enchantments don't have weight.


Quote:

Are there alternatives? Yes there are, but when you have items that gives you bonus to important stats, it does make sense to require stats to wield them, because that way you can control the flow of the game.


There is a difference between requireing sensible stats and ever-increasing gateways.
Ever played D&D? Or Baldurs Gate?

Armors and swords have specific requirement, but those requirements are fixed. ALL two-handers rougly require 14 STR (IIRC.. alos D&D doesn't shower you in attribute points either and the range is limited so choices matter a lot), from the most simple blade to the Holy Avenger: Carsnomyr. And you could equip and wield that sword as soon as you got it with no penalties. Why? Because it's a sword, not a space shuttle.
Same for armor. You wear it. What does "level" matter? I can't wear this cap because I'm too low level? What, did I forget how to wear caps?

What a game shouldn't do is try to control the player and the flow too much. That's what movies do. They are linear experiences over which the directors has total control. Games shouldn't be that. Any needless restriction that isn't necessary is a point against the game.

Re: amazing game. But... a few suggestions [Re: Ellderon] #550574
05/09/14 07:05 PM
05/09/14 07:05 PM
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Saishy Offline
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I agree with you, the whole stats system of D:OS would be better being reworked.
But I can see that not being their priority, as it's just a milestone system. Keep putting points in your main attributes and be able to progress.

While following the dev logs it shows that making such non-linear gameplay with the co-op option took too much time and effort from them to allow any kind of polish on anything else. Hence the whole stats system being awkward, talents, attributes, abilities.

But what really makes me down is the fact that those are hardcoded in the game and you can't create mods with custom stats...


I was just trying to defend that it does make sense in it's own, the decision per see being "If I put more points in STR I will keep improving my damage, but maybe I want to level my INT so I get a few spells that would help me? Or maybe I'm already good enough on the damage but needs more action points to really wield that damage".

So it's not entirely bad, hence being acceptable enough to be playable.


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