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Re: Pressure on developers [Re: Saishy] #550585
05/09/14 08:19 PM
05/09/14 08:19 PM
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Cattletech Offline

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Why doesn't metal armor protect from electrocution??? zomg!

Re: Pressure on developers [Re: florps] #550736
06/09/14 08:48 PM
06/09/14 08:48 PM
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henryv Offline

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Everyone critiquing on even the simplest things. That's why we can't have nice things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6TiRJNI-Q


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Pressure on developers [Re: florps] #551426
09/09/14 10:01 AM
09/09/14 10:01 AM
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I feel like everyone is missing the most important point.

Boob-shaped plate armor is important and necessary because only one gender wears it: it provides a visual contrast between male and female characters. The more similar male character and female character models are, the less point there is in choosing one or the other.

This is the same reason its a good thing that DOS' male PC has such a different body shape from the female PC. That his is a generic 'superman' build matters far less than the fact that the design contrasts well with the female body.

Inasmuch as DOS does different genders well, look to Dark Souls for an example of the inverse. Male and female character models and armor models are almost universally identical, so much so that many players in Dark Souls 2 accidentally changed their PC's gender in the tutorial and didn't even notice the difference until dozens of hours later. If there is no difference, no contrast (visually) between male and female character models, then there is absolutely no point in allowing the player to choose a gender at all.

Re: Pressure on developers [Re: florps] #551450
09/09/14 11:44 AM
09/09/14 11:44 AM
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Boob-shaped plate armor is NOT important or necessary.

One may argue that there should be a visual contrast between male and female, but when in plate armor it is not necessary to provide a visual cue. The lighter the clothing, the more visual differences will be. If your female and male characters are possessing equally hulking bodies which can fit plate armor...well there is no reason or necessity to feminize that armor. Your female is as bulky as your male after all (probably as ugly as a male). When they remove their armor the difference might be seen clearly.

Of course...if you prefer anime style skinny women with enormous strength and boob-plates...then by all means. As a male, I can say it can be quite attractive but in logic it fails miserably.

My point is, in a RPG, the gender differences should be used in optional solutions, side quests, body shape (which becomes similar for each gender under heavy garment, different with lighter garment), portraits, dialogues etc. Thus boob-shaped plate armor is simply overrated.

Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #551584
09/09/14 06:38 PM
09/09/14 06:38 PM
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All - this topic (armor for female characters in RPGs) is also under discussion at the Baldur's Gate Forums. Plenty of examples of not-really-functional-but-certainly-eye-catching female armor, with some comments from trolls but also some serious discussions of what constitutes practical armor for a female RPG character.

Note: there should not be any nudity in that forum but there is surely some very-close-to-nude images.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21721/unrealistic-fantasy-art/p1

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #551587
09/09/14 07:08 PM
09/09/14 07:08 PM
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Honestly, the impracticality of boob-shaped armour never occurred to me the all. I think it is an understandable mistake. RPGs aren't simulations after all. RPG designers and graphic artists can't be expected to be experts on medieval warfare.

That said, it goes to show the problem of highly-detailed graphics for complex games like RPGs: the greater the amount of graphical detail, the more likely you will get those details wrong. This was never a problem in the DOS days. I prefer the old pixel art style myself. Often it is better to leave things to the imagination... I'm not sure the RPG genre benefits from detailed 3D graphics, at least not enough to justify the extra cost of development and the need to appeal to wider audience - i.e. dumb down the game - because of those extra costs.

That's another thing. Hardcore RPGers hate seeing RPGs being dumbed down as they are now. So why wouldn't they want the armour designs to make sense? I expect my RPGs to not be dumb. RPG is a thinking man (and woman's) game. It's about setting, story, decision-making, tactics, etc. RPGers shouldn't have to turn off their brains to play RPGs. That pretty goes against what RPGs are about in the first place...

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #551707
10/09/14 07:47 AM
10/09/14 07:47 AM
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To be blunt everyone and their brother knows what's going on in the gaming community right now. See: Internet Aristocrat and his Five guys Theory (just to start) if you live under the proverbial rock.

While I didn't think game review sites and gaming news in general was in anyway "fair".. the degree of shameless ideology pushing was just jawdropping.

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #551737
10/09/14 09:53 AM
10/09/14 09:53 AM
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florps Offline OP
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Quote:
To be blunt everyone and their brother knows what's going on in the gaming community right now.


I wanted to hint at that topic to be honest. I describe myself as a feminist. The gaming community serioulsy has to take criticism from Anita. S and co. Not all her points might be correct, but there is some truth in her videos. There is also sexism in video games and the community.
That aside, I think discussing feminism honestly is all the advertising feminism needs. What journalists write these days is below any form of integrity. We have the same problems in the industry and there is research that we are unconsciously sexist*. The best remedy is informing people about it. Not starting an ideological crusade against a "culture".

edit: *unconsciously sexist mostly without ill attemts, if i look at the gaming community.

Last edited by florps; 10/09/14 09:55 AM.
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #552414
10/09/14 01:08 PM
10/09/14 01:08 PM
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henryv Offline

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Originally Posted By: florps
Quote:
To be blunt everyone and their brother knows what's going on in the gaming community right now.


I wanted to hint at that topic to be honest. I describe myself as a feminist. The gaming community serioulsy has to take criticism from Anita. S and co. Not all her points might be correct, but there is some truth in her videos. There is also sexism in video games and the community.
That aside, I think discussing feminism honestly is all the advertising feminism needs. What journalists write these days is below any form of integrity. We have the same problems in the industry and there is research that we are unconsciously sexist*. The best remedy is informing people about it. Not starting an ideological crusade against a "culture".

edit: *unconsciously sexist mostly without ill attemts, if i look at the gaming community.


The problem with Anita is that she herself is not credible that's why most people just hate her not because she's a woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57tXyqPCOCM

I really don't care for a woman's appearance in a video game and I also don't care about a man's appearance. It's depends on how you really sexualize a person's appearance and put it into context.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6TiRJNI-Q

If you ask me, I really prefer the game play rather than the appearance. I could only tolerate the graphics of the game from SNES era and not dwarf fortress kind of graphics. I've been playing games since SNES era, that's why I don't usually think of big boobies whenever there is one on my screen.


"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #552416
10/09/14 01:22 PM
10/09/14 01:22 PM
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florps Offline OP
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Quote:
The problem with Anita is that she herself is not credible that's why most people just hate her not because she's a woman.


Many people didn't allow to criticize her. Her videos do have factual errors. It is actually sexist and patronizing to not allow any negative comment. That aside she received quite a lot of hate for only stating her view as an outsider. No excuse for the one-sided narative from journalists though. In my opinion they lack the integrity to be an inspiring example.

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #553338
11/09/14 09:57 PM
11/09/14 09:57 PM
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She didn't present herself as an outsider in her kickstarter pitch ...

2012 : "I love playing video games but I'm regularly disappointed in the limited and limiting ways women are represented."

2010 : "I am not a fan of video games, I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this"

Possible, not entirely likely.

Last edited by Pinky; 11/09/14 09:58 PM.
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #553456
12/09/14 06:48 AM
12/09/14 06:48 AM
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florps Offline OP
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doesn't really matter. ciriticism in every form is always valuable.

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #553602
12/09/14 12:00 PM
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Then there is nothing wrong with criticizing her disingenuous and manipulative character :p

To get back on topic ... I think for the historical angle we shouldn't forget there are large forces driving women who want to wear armour at all into armour similar shaped to males. They don't want to stand out on the battlefield if they are actually combatants and getting armour specifically crafted for them is more expensive.

If we assume a fantasy society where men and women are equally physically capable and equally represented in armed forces both of these forces disappear ... and the same forces driving modern female body armour to uniboob designs come to the fore. Especially for armour which allows some articulation in the stomach region uniboob female armour just makes far more sense than unisex.

For plate unisex makes a little more sense, just making the curve a little larger and leaving more room at the stomach can work ... on the other hand, it's wasted material. When fully half of combatants is women then especially for custom fit armour the uniboob wins out again.

Unisex armour mostly only makes sense for flatchested women in egalitarian fantasy settings.

Last edited by Pinky; 12/09/14 12:02 PM.
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #553722
12/09/14 12:46 PM
12/09/14 12:46 PM
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florps Offline OP
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I agree but I think most women would fit comfortably in male armor too. But it is to question if we need to be realistic in fantasy settings. If ressources allow it, there should be a litte bit of both in my opinion.

Quote:
Then there is nothing wrong with criticizing her disingenuous and manipulative character :p


come on, give her a chance... everyone who wants to raise awareness to something could be called "manipulative".

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #555347
21/09/14 11:17 AM
21/09/14 11:17 AM
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henryv Offline

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Originally Posted By: florps

come on, give her a chance... everyone who wants to raise awareness to something could be called "manipulative".


We should get rid of the weeds first to see the clear picture of the landscape. When I said weeds, they are those people who push for ideologies when their actions contradicted to what they want to portray. TL;DR hypocrites.

I've never heard anything about gamers gate discussion until 6 hours ago. You have to thank the alleged censorship. I'm truly concerned about gaming as a whole. It becomes ridden with politics and not into making games anymore.

EDIT: When I said clear picture, this is what I want to see. Not cherry picking parts of the game.

Last edited by henryv; 21/09/14 03:37 PM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #555376
21/09/14 05:17 PM
21/09/14 05:17 PM
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Many thanks for the gamergate link smile

It is a conversation I had not encountered, and yet it captures some of a dissatisfaction I have experienced yet struggled to explain. I believe a large part of this is simply witnessing a lack of imagination in current journalism (a chance irony, given criticisms currently levied against developers).

Personally, I have rarely encountered the word 'trope(s)' until it began to appear in every such discussion. To clarify, I see this as symptomatic of an idea copy/paste rather than the issue itself. A homogenization of language tends to reflect a homogenization of thought, or if you like: plagiarism (failing to cite that the bulk of ideas in your writing are not your own). I would mind such articles less if the authors bothered to contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. If not corrupt, such endless repetitions are at a minimum extremely dull.

This is not to say that I identify with a side, I remain my own smile

Last edited by synra; 21/09/14 05:27 PM.
Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #555446
22/09/14 08:30 AM
22/09/14 08:30 AM
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tropes are a thing since ancient times, they exist since literature spawned it's first critics. And are you saying you never heard of TVTROPES ? -> tvtropes.org

tvtropes also being the far better way to spend your time than watching her videos. At least on TV tropes you really learn something about tropes and how they are used.

Re: Baldur's Gate Forums Has Similar Thread [Re: florps] #555447
22/09/14 08:50 AM
22/09/14 08:50 AM
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Rarely encountered is different to only just discovered. I'm talking about frequency of use. Obviously such is subjective, and it will depend where you read. Personally, I've read a lot of tech journalism over the last 8 or so years, and this is my experience.

Last edited by synra; 22/09/14 08:52 AM.
Re: Pressure on developers [Re: florps] #555450
22/09/14 09:16 AM
22/09/14 09:16 AM
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florps Offline OP
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I also see a front between consumers and content creators here. Every forum moderator probably could tell you about that. The vitriol you have to endure from online communities must be tiring, because many people vent their frustrations this way. Maybe this is especially prevalent in the gaming community.

I also don't like the focus on identity politics, but I also think that nobody should have to endure bomb threats for bringing it up sad . Imagine their positions. Their families and friends are also affected by this.

The timing of certain articles was probably bad,
but i don't think "twitter bombs" are the correct answer.
I am a fan of drama, but the popcorn got stale very fast. I think if someone sees something as sexist, that is their interpretation of reality. It doesn't have to be sexist for everybody, but we could at least try to address their concerns in a civil matter. You also have to acknowledge the possibility to be wrong.

Trust in the press promoting these issues is so low, that people already start to believe in conspiracies. It is a hard life we have to endure, if people caring for "social justice" are waiting behind every corner to jump on you wink. Addressing this lack of trust would be a good start to have a discussion.

Hate stems from ignorance and being unloved, but we should remember that nobody wants to hate and we should always give other people the benefit of the doubt by default. Many people seem to have their personal boogeyman on both "sides". That is not a good standpoint to resolve disagreements.

Re: Pressure on developers [Re: florps] #555474
22/09/14 01:38 PM
22/09/14 01:38 PM
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You guys might have misinterpreted my post as threatening. It doesn't necessarily mean bomb threats, I'm not that kind of a person and it's really low if you do it like this. I think the entire community in GG focuses on boycotting the said journalists and instead promoting those that are with legitimate concerns. If you have read what happened with The Fine Young Capitalists you'll understand.

The problem with some in the community is that some of them are out of control or we don't know if it's just propaganda. 01% would make any kind of threats to be "edgy" or they just have attitude problems. Problem is that these threats are enlarged to represent the gaming community which is actually isn't the case. What was funny is the bomb reporting made just recently (on a single date). So, we couldn't just trash the idea that the threats are just mere fabrication.

Last edited by henryv; 22/09/14 01:45 PM.

"There is no such thing as absolute freedom because we are still prisoners of society"
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