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Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Stabbey] #564994
30/03/15 11:05 PM
30/03/15 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
The point is that using your proposed revision for Backstab, anyone who takes Rogue will STILL have to take it at character creation. Your revision misses the point. A Rogue trying to get the "free" backstab has to not only wait until level 6,

I see, backstab talent should be accessible for free from the level one. Right. Then >>>
1. Take backstab for 1 talent point
2. Get Scoundrel level 2 to get it as reward.

You want a stabby stab guy on the first level, here you go. Well, he need to sacrifice something else.

Originally Posted By: Stabbey

Backstabbing should not be reliant on an talent or ability level, it should be something anyone wielding a knife can do; it should simply be a property of the weapon. Dexterity requirements will keep fighters and mages from wielding them.
I want a magic dagger of storms. It gives +1 Int and spell Blitz. Staffs for every caster is dull.

Last edited by gGeo; 30/03/15 11:31 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Stabbey] #564995
30/03/15 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
The elemental shields granting Elemental affinity is a neat and simple idea. I think though that the current balance issue with Elemental Shields is that they absorb all kinds of damage, not just the type that they are supposed to, so that might need to be looked at when re-balancing Elemental Shields. A +3 AP cost might be okay, but I'd prefer +2 AP.
+3 AP is quite boost in case of affinity works.

Lets do a math -
Shield costs 8AP
Shield stays on for 3 rounds
you can cast 3-8 spells.
Every spell is 1AP less
At worst case, it is the same like now
At good case, caster is shielded and cost it nothing.
At best case, caster is glasscanon so he gets AP bonus and is shielded. e.g. This negates the glasscanon drawback!

On the other side, give the expensive shield to the melle character is not so benefical.

I think that make mages more into elements is way of the game.
The shields power could be little less, 80% of current HP.

Last edited by gGeo; 30/03/15 11:50 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #564996
30/03/15 11:31 PM
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But is he a Rogue also? Mine is. And he never backstabs but he does shoot everything in sight with his bow. He carries a dagger or Rapier but uses the bow.

It should just be Backstabbing for rogues automatically, no talent needed, they really dont have a heck of a lot that sets them apart. Thats not overpowered and if they fix Opportunist Talent to work more and better- then the fighter gets out of getting a very intractable talent of questionable worth, that any fighter would have, that the computer version actually works better than the characters talent.

Rogues (should) have Backstabbing.
Mages have real Spells.
Fighters just get huge hit points and will do the most damage in the game.
Rangers have ( lots of ) ranged attacks.

Anyone could still use a dagger.
Rogues no longer get hosed on needing to take a talent just to be a rogue.
Fighters, Rangers and mages need nothing and stay the same.

Normally Rogues would be different since they sneak, pick-pocket, lock-pick, disarm traps, AND backstab.

Well anyone can do those in this game, except backstab so why not give that to them for free.


Last edited by Felixg91; 30/03/15 11:37 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #564997
30/03/15 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Felixg91
Yep thats a rogues build, backstab should be free, thats the only thing that class has offensively.
The strongest weapon of dex builds is charm skills. One dex char with both charm skills can wreck whole group easy alone. Tested.

Last edited by gGeo; 30/03/15 11:46 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #564999
31/03/15 12:09 AM
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Yeah that may be true, but more things should be immune to charm, heck in D&D and most PNP RPG's charm isnt much of a tool, it may not work, has limited range and duration and lots of things either resist it or are immune to it, or break the effect.

I think its why I use it so infrequently. I always get it but use it like 3-5 times ( maybe less) per playthrough.

I dont think its too powerful, I think it works on too many things and a little too well.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565066
02/04/15 06:18 PM
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A bit late to the party, but here's my 2「 on the talents.

Politician: while not the most useful, it did fit for my main character who was the representative of the party and did all the talking (he also had Pet Pal). As he did not dabble in magic, the penalty to Intelligence didn't really affect him. But together with the Considerate character trait and the smelly panties, that gave 4 free ranks to Charisma. Plus I really liked the subtle humour inherent in the talent.

Opportunist: that didn't work 100% of the time? Didn't notice that, to be honest. I found it good enough and saw it in action enough times to make it worthwhile, much more so than Anaconda.

Leech/Zombie: while seemingly quite powerful (at least I heard no complaints about those), I found them to be quite "evil" and not fitting at all for any of my characters. So two talents less to chose from. Would have wished for something more positively worded that would have allowed my characters to get some easy recovery option.

Similar (to a lesser degree) with Stench: only really fitting for Bairdotr. The rest of the group was quite intent on their hygiene, thank you!


All in all, it was really difficult to chose fitting talents for some of the characters, to the effect that for a big part of the game, some of them had up to two unallocated talent points, which kind of seemed like a waste.

Also, why were there no talents specifically for witches? Nerea felt quite discriminated because of that.


In general, I think the talents are a real good tool for role-playing and giving each character a more unique touch, especially with talents like Pet Pal that only really make sense to get for one in the group. I don't think it is required for each and every talent to have a powerful effect on gameplay (combat, specifically), but some where clearly underwhelming (Pack Mule is one example, as even the weakest character not even got close to the carrying limit).

So please, more talent choices, both meaningful for defining a character and useful in the game itself. For example, I really could have done with something that boosts combat initiative. While rank 5 Leadership gave +10 initiative to the rest of the group, poor Jahan almost always got last turn in later parts of the game, and there wasn't much to do about that.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565071
03/04/15 12:23 AM
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Yes talents are in need of some revamping.

Oppurtunist really is not equivalent to the computers ability to use it and make AoO....its inconsistent and unreliable.

Packmule is a watse i also dislike stench...funny i kind of think of bairdotr as being disgustingly filthy and unclean as well.

Leech and zombie i would never take either youbare correct they feel evil.

The situation with talents gets worse and more obvious on following playthroughs. I am on playthrough #8 and i am frustrated and disgusted with talents pretty much.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565163
05/04/15 05:56 PM
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Why are there so many talents in Dairymoose's excellant savegame editor that do not appear in the normal game? If he added those man what a great job! IF not and they are part of the game why are they not in the vanilla version?

Most of them are good, heck much better than Vanilla. Editing pretty much removes most of my objections to the Talents, actually editing the game is great especially after 7 uncheated playthroughs, the things that frustrate seem curable, just by cheating. Usually I do not cheat until I have played the game through a few times, then after that I do want to experiment and that is also when I start looking for things I have not done yet or used yet or tried yet.

Opportunist still needs to be fixed though, LOL.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565172
05/04/15 08:56 PM
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There were a bunch of talents changed or renamed during the beta. Stuff like that should be cleaned up in the next large update.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565173
05/04/15 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Felixg91
Why are there so many talents in Dairymoose's excellant savegame editor that do not appear in the normal game? If he added those man what a great job! IF not and they are part of the game why are they not in the vanilla version?


Can I find a list of those Talents (without actually installing the savegame editor)?

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565174
05/04/15 09:27 PM
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Hey Raze is there a way to refuse the update and still be able to play the game, my concern is steam automatically updates games and my understanding is it will break the editors utility.
Now that I have the editor working I want to play with it for a few months at least.

Hey Stabbey I can do a screen-copy and print it tonight maybe if I remember and if it will capture,or I can write the titles down and at least post em for ya.
There are some very good talents in there, Gladiator, Warlord, Killer Instinct so far are my favorites, and actually the editor is pretty great, almost as easy to use as Gatekeeper or ShadowKeeper and nice to re-spec your characters without losing anything.

But the descriptions for each of the talents in the editor reveal with a tooltip when moused over.

Last edited by Felixg91; 05/04/15 09:48 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565179
06/04/15 12:14 AM
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You can make a copy of the install folder, or otherwise back up the current version of the game. The next update will be "some months", though, so that may not be necessary. You would be able to start the game directly from the executable, though wouldn't have Steamworks features that way (achievement and playtime tracking, the online lobby and Steam friends invite function for co-op).

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565180
06/04/15 12:54 AM
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Oh thanks, i want both actually to play as is with edited characters a few times then sine it will be months it will probably be perfect and time for change. Thanks Raze.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565193
06/04/15 05:23 PM
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List of Talents in the editor for Stabbey. Some I cannot remember the benefit for, some are probably misinterpreted by me as to function, most are correctly defined. Hope this helps.

Cat Burglar +1 Sneaking or Lockpick?
Eagle Eyes Improves Perception-sight cone
Fleet Footed movement bonus?
Fortunes Favorite +1 to luck
Gladiator +10% to hit in melee
Headstrong ?
Indestructible ?
Intimidator bonus to intimidate in conversations
Kickstarter ?
Killer Instinct +5% to crit chances
Leader of the Pack + to init at begining of melee
Quick Witted +10% experience
Rosy Cheeked +1 to AP
Sixth Sense ?
Traders Tongue +1 to Barter
Warlord +10% to melee wpn damage
Assassin backstab with any weapon
Braveheart Immune to Fear
Catapult throw heavier objects farther
Dress Rehersal change gear in combat for less AP
Geomancer +1 Geomancer
Grease Monkey +1 Blacksmith
Lightning rod 2 Immune to Stun
Mack The Knife -1 AP to using a dagger
Marksman +10% to hit with Missile wpns
Mithridates Poison resistance/immunity boost
Picture of Health 2 flat +20% Vitality
Prince Charming Improve chance to charm in conversations
Pussy Footer less chance to get caught stealing/sneaking
Pyromaniac +1 Pyro-magic level
Rainman +1 Hydro-Magic level
Rhetorician Improves chance to reason in conversations
Silver Tongued +1 Charisma ?
Spook Improves Telekinesis +1
Stand Your Ground 2 Immunity to Knocked Down
Tempest +1 to Aerothurge magic Level
Tinkerer improves crafting selectively ?


Last edited by Felixg91; 06/04/15 05:42 PM.
Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565196
06/04/15 07:01 PM
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Oh yeah, most of these were renamed during the beta, and a lot of others are no longer useful. Fleetfooted also used to give 1 extra AP. I think Indestructible was a durability thing like My Precious. Sixth Sense was a secret-spotting thing.

Basically these were removed from the alpha/beta for good reasons. It's hard to imagine anyone spending a Talent point on a +1 Ability thing now.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565197
06/04/15 07:44 PM
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Yeah some are worth keeping, I think. Some are redundent, some are useless...but I think what is in the game now is more useless. Mostly.

Killer Instinct, Mack the Knife, Assassin, Quick Witted, a few others maybe should have been kept and maybe improved or modified a little.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565202
06/04/15 09:21 PM
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Eh, in my opinion, quite a number of those are not worth bringing back.

Assassin was removed for both being too powerful, and because it had the warrior stepping on the role of the Rogue too much. Mack the Knife was when Daggers briefly cost 3 AP, and it can't be put back in because 1 AP daggers would be insanely overpowered.

Quick-witted is another one that probably few people would really take, much like the "Wisdom" skill in previous games. In part, because it desynchs your characters XP, also, those rarely provide enough of a boost to be worth the point anyway.

Dress Rehersal was probably removed because gear was never so critical that you wanted to waste time switching it mid-combat.

Back in the alpha/beta you used to get a Talent point every odd level, not every 4 levels.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565203
06/04/15 09:33 PM
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some I can see as being useful in certain situations,

Dress Rehersal- first round shooting with a bow/xbow then switching to a melee weapon for instance.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565635
21/04/15 12:48 PM
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Talent suggestions:

(1) "Archmage" "Pyro/Hydro/Aero/Geo/Witch": Prerquisite 5 ranks in respective school, lowers enemy resistance to your spells of the respective school by 20%

Reason: Right now taking 5 ranks in a magic school is maybe not that great. Furthermore, specializing in a single magic school is bad because of enemy resistances and "rainbow mages" are much better. Such a fifth rank talent would make immune enemies at least slightly susceptible to the respective school. It might(?) make it worthwhile to buy five ranks.

Re: Talents that can be replaced or changed [Re: Felixg91] #565637
21/04/15 02:25 PM
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5 ranks isnt really all that great it alows unlimited memorized spells. If you make a mage pretty much gotta have all schools.

What really galls me is how mediocre the 18th level spells are.

The idea isnt terrible at all.

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