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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Allana] #583824
08/08/16 06:33 AM
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ChavaiotH Offline

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cRPG without iso? hahaha

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583826
08/08/16 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
cRPG without iso? hahaha


Not *without* Isometric. With a more involving isometric.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Dark_Ansem] #583828
08/08/16 07:00 AM
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ChavaiotH Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
cRPG without iso? hahaha


Not *without* Isometric. With a more involving isometric.


I understand, but the camera modes in DOS:EE are ok. Why more?

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583830
08/08/16 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
cRPG without iso? hahaha


Not *without* Isometric. With a more involving isometric.


I understand, but the camera modes in DOS:EE are ok. Why more?


Because they are too "aseptic", in a manner of speaking, at least for me: close-ups and a more cinematic experience add a lot of immersion for me.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Dark_Ansem] #583832
08/08/16 07:25 AM
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ChavaiotH Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
cRPG without iso? hahaha


Not *without* Isometric. With a more involving isometric.


I understand, but the camera modes in DOS:EE are ok. Why more?


Because they are too "aseptic", in a manner of speaking, at least for me: close-ups and a more cinematic experience add a lot of immersion for me.


Yep, but if you want more cinematic experience, think about the day and night cycles )))

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583835
08/08/16 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Yep, but if you want more cinematic experience, think about the day and night cycles )))


That's a way more complicated thing: new cameras, on the other hand, do not require any "substantial" change in game mechanic.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Dark_Ansem] #583836
08/08/16 07:49 AM
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ChavaiotH Offline

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Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Yep, but if you want more cinematic experience, think about the day and night cycles )))


That's a way more complicated thing: new cameras, on the other hand, do not require any "substantial" change in game mechanic.


They require changes of the 3d environment. And that's a lot of work.

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583840
08/08/16 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Yep, but if you want more cinematic experience, think about the day and night cycles )))


That's a way more complicated thing: new cameras, on the other hand, do not require any "substantial" change in game mechanic.


They require changes of the 3d environment. And that's a lot of work.


Not for cinematic situational cameras.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Allana] #583841
08/08/16 08:57 AM
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Just to chime in with my own opinion. Personally I absolutely like the isometric view. For a party-based RPG, there is simply no better way to keep a good overview and keep everything under control. (Note that single-character, action RPGs are a different thing entirely.)

As for additional cinematics, I am also in the camp that prefers to let their own imagination fill in the blanks. For that reason, I am also not a fan of fully voiced dialogue. Give me a line or two to establish a characters voice, but then do not force me to suffer through 2nd-rate voice acting that only serves to slow dialogues down. But without full voice acting, close-ups of the speakers are pointless, IMO. Now larger and possibly animated NPC portraits OTOH would be a welcome improvement.

Pretty much the same goes for cinematics during combat. To me, any close-ups or a kill-cam would interrupt the flow of the battle too much. Constantly changing perspective between actions makes it harder to focus on the actual going-ons. I also don't need to see kills in gory details all the time. That soon gets old and boring and needlessly drags out battles that aren't exactly short anyway.

In brief, I'd rather have Larian invest their time and money into gameplay, story, quests, etc. instead of visual fluff. A pretty facade may hide shortcomings in gameplay for a time, but excellent gameplay can stand on its own. If graphics start to distract from the gameplay, something is not right.

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ka1man] #583842
08/08/16 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: ka1man
Just to chime in with my own opinion. Personally I absolutely like the isometric view. For a party-based RPG, there is simply no better way to keep a good overview and keep everything under control. (Note that single-character, action RPGs are a different thing entirely.)

As for additional cinematics, I am also in the camp that prefers to let their own imagination fill in the blanks. For that reason, I am also not a fan of fully voiced dialogue. Give me a line or two to establish a characters voice, but then do not force me to suffer through 2nd-rate voice acting that only serves to slow dialogues down. But without full voice acting, close-ups of the speakers are pointless, IMO. Now larger and possibly animated NPC portraits OTOH would be a welcome improvement.

Pretty much the same goes for cinematics during combat. To me, any close-ups or a kill-cam would interrupt the flow of the battle too much. Constantly changing perspective between actions makes it harder to focus on the actual going-ons. I also don't need to see kills in gory details all the time. That soon gets old and boring and needlessly drags out battles that aren't exactly short anyway.

In brief, I'd rather have Larian invest their time and money into gameplay, story, quests, etc. instead of visual fluff. A pretty facade may hide shortcomings in gameplay for a time, but excellent gameplay can stand on its own. If graphics start to distract from the gameplay, something is not right.


Agree 100%. I still play Planescape Torment and imagine a lot. Maybe I've just been spoiled by XCOM 2, and I welcome the extra dynamics of battle cams - even if they break the bigger picture.
On this note, I wonder how reactive combat will be in DOS2, if something like Overwatch/Bladestorm from XCOM2 is going to be planned.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583847
08/08/16 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
They require changes of the 3d environment. And that's a lot of work.

I'm pretty sceptical about this, actually.

This is how far I can zoom in on the Enhanced Edition. I don't see a problem here. Just make the faces a little bit nicer to look at and the Enhanced Edition would be ready for some close-ups. What more would you want from it? Many games with much worse graphics than D:OS have already been doing this for decades.

I really hope they're not going to take away the ability to rotate the camera in D:OS2 in order to save effort decorating the map like in vanilla D:OS.

Originally Posted By: Raze
So it should be structured like a fetch quest, rather than present a situation that you can choose to look into, if you are so inclined?

Not at all. I said it could be as simple as him asking you a question. "Have you seen Maxine?" "Do you know what I should do?" By asking you questions, he makes you a more active participant, and he shows that he is interested in her. If he asks you about Maxine, but learns you can't help (because you don't know anything) then that's a good segueway for him to tell you a bit more about the situation. It doesn't mean he is asking you to do anything after the conversation is over.

In fact, if you want the conversation to tie together really well, you could have that segueway into his backstory with the ship. "Ever since I washed up on the beach, Maxine has been the one thing that helps me to forget the screams of my friends as they fell beneath the waves."

Originally Posted By: Raze
How is the Witcher 3 quest guy's long monologue any different than Zixzax, besides the camera moving around and changing perspective (sometimes annoyingly, IMNSHO)? The player has an occasional 'continue' question, with a fake choice a couple times that gives a short diversion before getting back to the where you can 'continue', and at the end there are some questions that can provide a little more detail.

I'm not talking about player input -- I'm talking about the conversation.

Click to reveal.. (D:OS)
Unsinkable Sam: *Meow* Never saw you in the King Crab before! You're welcome to scratch me behind the ears if you like, I won't scratch back!

Player: Who are you?

Unsinkable Sam: I am Unsinkable Sam! At least, that's what they call me around here. Used to be a ship's cat, but the clipper I was on sank and I was the only one to wrestle himself free from the waves. The people here were kind and took me in. Been the King Crab's foremost patron ever since!

Player: Tell me about the ship you were on.

Unsinkable Sam: A magnificent ship she was! Used to belong to a pirate I was told. Unlike me, she didn't prove to be unsinkable though. We hit the cliffs right 'neath the lighthouse. Not very apt a name for that building I might say, for no light was shining from it!

Unsinkable Sam: The moment I hit the water, I writhed around like I would on a hot tin roof. By some miracle I managed to reach the beach covered in kelp and smelling worse than a fishes' funeral parlour, but I was alive, and that was more than anybody else could say! (This is actually a rather flippant way to talk about all your friends dying, and almost dying with them.)

Player: So you were the only survivor?

Unsinkable Sam: So I was! What friends I had, they all drowned alongside the rats I used to hunt in the galley, and there I was, all alone. (Once again, comparing the tragic deaths of your own friends to that of the rats in the galley. Classy.)

Unsinkable Sam: Not that I have it bad here, mind you. I've milk and fish aplenty; most folks will pet me kindly, and when one of the village girls holds me tight against her ample bosom I purr up a storm, but I do long for a companion of my own kind, and in that regard, there's no one like Maxine!

(He never shows a hint of distress. What is Unsinkable Sam's motivation in telling you all of this? It just seems that he's keen to tell you a story. If I were reading this passage in a book, it would sound great. But not when it's being presented as dialogue.)


Click to reveal.. (Witcher 3)
Geralt: Your wound? Feeling better? (A pretty good icebreaker, actually.)

Guillaume: It's healing splendidly, though I'm to avoid trouble for some time. To be frank, that is precisely why I wished to speak with you. (He hesitates.) (Great segueway.)

Geralt: Want me to stand in for you, take some trouble on your behalf?

Guillaume: That could well be the case. You see, there is a maiden - nay, a lady. I suspect someone's cast an ill spell on her. A curse, perhaps.

Geralt: Lemme guess - she suddenly grew cold, haughty and distant, though the night before she was flirtatious and alluring?

Guillaume: Tut-tut, witcher - you jest, yet the matter is grave. Though, true, the lady in question is dear to my heart - I shall not deny it.

(Notice how about half of the dialogue so far -- and half of the information we get from this exchange is coming from Geralt -- not Guillaume?)


Both of these characters are supposed to be lovesick. Only Guillaume actually acts like it.

I can also try to find a similar example from a Bioware game if you think it's impossible to do this when the character's a blank slate.

As for the camera angles in the Witcher 3 scene, they added in some unusual camera angles in this case in order to draw your attention to the bird, which would later be an important part of the quest. Normally, they use the camera a lot more conventionally. But this is simply an issue of how you feel the scene should be directed.

I'm not suggesting that they direct scenes like in the Witcher (as great as that would be). But I would like characters to express themselves physically, and I would like to be close enough that I can see them doing it.

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Allana] #583848
08/08/16 02:00 PM
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I think the thing about "investing time and effort" can sometimes be a bit purist. I get the point and to an extent I agree with it, having seen games where insufficient effort has been given to some elements apparently at the expense of others. But I'm also aware that it's an argument that carries quite a high risk of being specious, and there is scope to do different areas to a reasonable minimum standard that caters for different tastes.

That last point is one that I've become wary of: with gaming in general, and it would seem RPGs in particular, there seems to be an element of "my way or no way" when it comes to preferences of gameplay. I tend to be a lot more laissez faire about it, and unless there is a very conspicuous compromise being made, I figure that's fair enough. Even on the subject of "conspicuous compromises", I think a lot of that is down to more corporate issues like deadlines rather than the ability and capacity of the team to cater for demand. I just keep on thinking about Dragon Age 2, in both regards really: a game that was very obviously released at least a year sooner than it should have been, it was clear that nowhere near enough effort was invested in storytelling or places to explore (the overly reused dungeons were notorious: I forget how many there actually were, but ISTR only 3-4 smallish, generic dungeons approached from different angles) which contrasted badly with too much emphasis on edgy artwork and gimmicks such as "the awesome button". Someone claiming to be an insider said that the latter was the real problem, but I can't help feeling that the apparently rushed development time was a bigger one. Anyway, I digress, but you get the point, hopefully.

Vaguely on topic, I'm very, very belatedly enjoying Divine Divinity for the first time, having arrived via Ego Draconis when it was still current. And I have to say I'm enjoying it a lot, but I would also add that I would enjoy it a lot more if the graphics were better and especially if I could switch to 3rd-person when the fancy takes me. Alas, it's what it is, but I'd rather future games don't have that constraint unless absolutely necessary. I understand in the case of D:OS2, as a necessity it is pretty much an absolute because of limited budgets and development time, but I wouldn't be happy if the exclusion of something that would significantly improve my gaming experience was because one set of fans said the preferences of another set of fans shouldn't be catered for.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Ayvah] #583853
08/08/16 06:33 PM
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Raze Offline

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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
By asking you questions, he makes you a more active participant

I see what you are getting at, but don't really see a practical difference between the two. There could be a reason I wasn't hired as a writer, though.


Originally Posted By: Ayvah
I'm not talking about player input -- I'm talking about the conversation.

So was I. The dialogue options in D:OS 2 are more descriptive, rather than lines of dialogue, though that doesn't necessarily have to change the flow of the conversation.


Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Both of these characters are supposed to be lovesick. Only Guillaume actually acts like it.

IMO, having Sam talk about himself first and not show a great deal of concern for former 'friends' is entirely consistent with him being a cat.
evil

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Allana] #583855
08/08/16 07:09 PM
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Oh common. There is absolutely no sense for cinematic view. For what? Screenshots? Turn based combat. Use your imagination. Maybe a combat playback replay function. As I said before the dos:ee camera is perfect.

For more zoom and better face details, they need better textures, that means more performance memory, more work.

For sure Larian can do it, even facial animations, but think about the optimization for consoles. *evil laugh*

Day and night cycle only) )) and forget about cinematic views.

For my subjective mind the game is almost perfect. Hope the color palette in dos 2 will stay realistic and not so bright like in dos.

Pax

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583858
08/08/16 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
Oh common. There is absolutely no sense for cinematic view. For what? Screenshots? Turn based combat. Use your imagination. Maybe a combat playback replay function. As I said before the dos:ee camera is perfect.

For more zoom and better face details, they need better textures, that means more performance memory, more work.

For sure Larian can do it, even facial animations, but think about the optimization for consoles. *evil laugh*

Day and night cycle only) )) and forget about cinematic views.

For my subjective mind the game is almost perfect. Hope the color palette in dos 2 will stay realistic and not so bright like in dos.

Pax


That's quite a lot of opinions.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: ChavaiotH] #583862
09/08/16 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
For more zoom and better face details, they need better textures, that means more performance memory, more work.

There are few ideas that can be executed without work. But I'm confident (in my ignorance) that this would be cost-effective.

Larian is putting a lot of work into letting you customise the appearance of your character, but it's all for nothing if they're too ashamed to let you see what you have made.

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Ayvah] #583864
09/08/16 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Originally Posted By: ChavaiotH
For more zoom and better face details, they need better textures, that means more performance memory, more work.

There are few ideas that can be executed without work. But I'm confident (in my ignorance) that this would be cost-effective.

Larian is putting a lot of work into letting you customise the appearance of your character, but it's all for nothing if they're too ashamed to let you see what you have made.


Another excellent point.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Dark_Ansem] #583918
10/08/16 11:24 AM
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I should also add, when norD earlier talked about the extra work in terms of decoration, he was thinking in relation to a shoulder cam. I agree with him. The problem with a shoulder cam is that the angle is different. This means you see things you wouldn't otherwise see.

If the budget allowed for it, I would definitely love to have a fully cinematic camera for dialogue, cut-scenes and important combat actions.

My suggestion, though, is to use "Enhanced Isometric", which is just the existing perspective with cutting, panning and zooming. This uses the zoom feature already demonstrated in D:OS EE. The only concern I had is that the D:OS EE character models were too unattractive to be focusing so much attention on them.

Well, speak of the devil, the latest Kickstarter update for D:OS2 shows some close-up shots of characters, proving that they've made massive improvements on this. I think there's still a bit of room for improvement in the face (especially with the hair which currently looks like play-dough) but I'm satisfied with what they've done.

This means that, personally, I see no technical limitation that would make an Enhanced Isometric perspective difficult.

On a related note, given the improved designs, I really feel there's no need for any of the 2D cut-scenes either. It should be feasible to start doing it all in-engine. The opening cut scene for D:OS would be a much better experience if it were to take advantage of what I've seen so far from the engine for D:OS2.

Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Ayvah] #583919
10/08/16 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
I should also add, when norD earlier talked about the extra work in terms of decoration, he was thinking in relation to a shoulder cam. I agree with him. The problem with a shoulder cam is that the angle is different. This means you see things you wouldn't otherwise see.

If the budget allowed for it, I would definitely love to have a fully cinematic camera for dialogue, cut-scenes and important combat actions.

My suggestion, though, is to use "Enhanced Isometric", which is just the existing perspective with cutting, panning and zooming. This uses the zoom feature already demonstrated in D:OS EE. The only concern I had is that the D:OS EE character models were too unattractive to be focusing so much attention on them.

Well, speak of the devil, the latest Kickstarter update for D:OS2 shows some close-up shots of characters, proving that they've made massive improvements on this. I think there's still a bit of room for improvement in the face (especially with the hair which currently looks like play-dough) but I'm satisfied with what they've done.

This means that, personally, I see no technical limitation that would make an Enhanced Isometric perspective difficult.

On a related note, given the improved designs, I really feel there's no need for any of the 2D cut-scenes either. It should be feasible to start doing it all in-engine. The opening cut scene for D:OS would be a much better experience if it were to take advantage of what I've seen so far from the engine for D:OS2.


I agree with the new character design, faces DO need some work however. Hopefully they'll tell us how to import new ones.


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Re: Please get rid of isometric view for D:OS 2 [Re: Allana] #583929
10/08/16 01:23 PM
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I'm not necessarily questioning what Nord has to say about the extra work, but looking at D:OS, a lot of the groundwork is there already for an over-the-shoulder or even first-person view: IMHO the textures are "good enough" and it already features quite a lot of rugged terrain that would break up or indeed totally obscure distant landscape. It seems that nearly all first/third-person games seem to take place in a sort of "soup bowl"-styled world with large mountains and cliffs surrounding it, with odd bits of vaguely-defined landscape in the distance where it wasn't totally obscured: Ego Draconis being a good example of both. I was just thinking about the way Cyseal was designed and was wondering how much extra effort would be required to make it look like a convincing world when you're actually down there rather than looking down from above. Probably less than it would take to fill in the empty-looking areas when the 360⁰ camera was enabled (and which I think few if any people actually complained about).

Talking of terrain maps, I'm still bemused that the Sims series went from hilly in Sims 3 to completely flat in Sims 4, which seemed bizarre. I admit I was reminded of Sims when I was exploring Verdistis just now. laugh


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