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Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #571971
25/10/15 05:07 AM
25/10/15 05:07 AM
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Ayvah Offline

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I am pretty sceptical with Kickstarter. There are two reasons why I contributed to D:OS2:
* D:OS was awesome, so I know I'll buy the sequel anyway
* D:OS was awesome, so even if D:OS2 crashes and burns, I feel they earned my money.

I look forward to when Larian are able to announce details of what will be featured in the GM mode. I'm confident my suggestions are absolutely achievable, but I understand that we can't always have every dream come true.

Some of these changes suggested for modding/GM mode essentially involve improving the D:OS engine. I feel the biggest risk is the potential for delaying the development of the rest of the game while they work on the engine (especially if they end up having employees stuck between projects).

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #571988
26/10/15 12:03 AM
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Neonivek Offline

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Then again Ayvah one of the biggest reasons for even bothering with the funding is for them to take the risk to make a good DM mode.

It is a weird thing whenever I bump into the opinion that the stretch goals should "not interfere with the development" because it goes against the idea of stretch goals altogether... Which is putting the game into more development so that the final product is even better.

If people don't want a delayed game they shouldn't endorse stretch goals at all.

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: xxswatelitexx] #572057
27/10/15 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: xxswatelitexx
The way I see the only way GM mode ever becoming popular is it has to be simple and intuitive. While being flexible when necessary.

I imagine DM mode divided into two separate operating modes.

Preparation Mode:
Live Mode:

The Preparation mode is essentially a simplified version of the editor. It lets you build the map, create factions, and faction associations ( which groups are allies, which groups are enemies, etc ) It also lets you create two types of units. Profile based units, which creates units randomly based on a set of parameters. Unique units which look exactly as set by the creator.

The 2nd part of preparation mode are premade scripts. Something like a merchant script - soldier script, archer script etc. Essentially Ai packages which can either be from Larian or custom made. So when you place a unit in live mode, you can just assign the package to the unit and they will act accordingly based on that package.

Finally when you finish "preparing" you save it as a package file and the package file is loaded when you host and gets "distributed" to the clients. This package contains the map \ unique scripts \ and other custom assets.

When the game is in motion you have "Live Mode"
Live mode would essentially be like a control station of sorts.

Lighting \ Weather Button - This changes the light to dark \ dusk \ noon \ night. Which lets you set the mood for the area.

An object button - which lets you drop objects. Clicking on the object lets you move it around and rotate it. Right clicking on the object lets you set the object as a container \ trap \ etc. Lets you set the weight of the object as well as health and description.

Then an NPC button which lets you choose from the prefabricated characters you made in preperation mode, either a unique character or profile based character.

Finally by clicking on the character you can order it to do things such as; sit, move, run, interact with "x" object. Or if you have a custom script, it will run that.

Also there are 2 types of dialogs.
1. Pre fabricated dialogs created in preperation mode. For example gate gaurd etc.

2. Live Dialogs which opens a some what of a chat window with the avatar [ 3d ] of the character appearing next to each statement the character makes. Where the DM can also activate a manual Dice Roll or rock paper scissors match with player.

==
I think by keeping Live mode simple - it will allow much flexibility for more users. While making sure the DM's are constantly being engaged. Especially since you forcibly split preparation mode to an offline event where the DM has to first prepare everything in advance, instead of forcing players to wait for the DM to set the stage.

You read my mind! This would be my dream! My current wish is all of this and then I would RP over voice chat with my crew.

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #572163
27/10/15 06:39 PM
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I understand this is turned base game, but will there be anyway for GM mode to make it that everyone take turn at the same time? Still good then bad turn base but no movements until all goodies and baddies decided their move

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Flamerion] #572323
28/10/15 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: Flamerion
I understand this is turned base game, but will there be anyway for GM mode to make it that everyone take turn at the same time? Still good then bad turn base but no movements until all goodies and baddies decided their move


There is a game coming out (forgot the name) that uses simultaneous turns like you are suggesting. However I think it simply wouldn't work very well with this game as it is. The core mechanics of the game would need to change. You would have all sorts of random stuff going on. AOE's that hit nobody, melee characters would lose their action points because their target moved too far away, it would just require a major overhaul to work.

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Raith] #572332
28/10/15 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted By: Raith
Legends of the Sword coast doesn't have a good DM mode worth emulating. It is a bizarre annoying thing that isn't conducive to a fun PnP style experience.
NWN however does.

A DM mode isn't the place for a bizarre competitive round robin mode, it should be attempting to emulate table top as much as possible, and through that desire the DM should have as much power and ability to change things as possible, the more editor functions they have access to in game (not to mention console commands) the better it will be.

"But Raith, building a big detailed area in game would be time consuming, what about that?"
That's why you should be prepared and have the major areas built if not populated in the editor before even loading it up for your group little one. Simple, no?

"But a DM should have a skill tree and gain levels and stuff to get more crap to do in the game!"
Why? The DM isn't in competition with the players, he is facilitating their story and game, now if this story kills them oh well but that isn't a success for the DM, it is simply the way it played out.

But if the DM can do anything from the start, what's to stop him from winning?
...The DM isn't in competition with the players, and if you have a DM (or you are that DM) that think that killing the party is "winning" then you shouldn't play with him/shouldn't be DM.

"DMs should be able to control the monsters directly to fight the party!"
I'm not against this, but it shouldn't be mandatory because personally I would be using that time gained in battle setting up the next area if it needed it.


Totally agree with this. As a P&P DM I believe it is the DMs job to facilitate the story. I think the true focus should be on giving DMs the tools to make a fun adventure. Dropping in items/npcs/monster at will, changing the weather on the fly, buffs and debuffs, etc.

It would be great for DMs to be able to make custom lists of enemy groups so they can drop them ahead of the party without needing to hand pick every enemy to place in each spot. You could even have CR type system where the DM picks the difficulty of the desired "mob" and the game spits out a grouping based on the list you made and the challenge level desired.

Also, something that I haven't seen mentioned yet...
I would REALLY like for DM mode not to force the DM to write all of this dialogue beforehand for the NPCs to interact with the players. I would like to see a system that is user-friendly with groups that would roleplay out their adventure over voice chat.

Ideally, you could handle skill checks in a live setting as such... (again, all of the chat is via voice chat)

NPC Guard (DM): "hold up there, what's the hurry? you aren't allowed in there!"
Player 1: "Oh, didn't they tell you? I'm supposed to be inspecting the grounds today..."

It would be great in this situation to allow Player 1 to just make a bluff/lie check vs. the npcs opposing skill. If successful, the appropriate rolplaying is done, and the DM clicks the gate to be unlocked and they are on with the story!

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #573389
01/11/15 05:18 AM
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Yes. Agreed. As far as a live GM mode goes, maximum freedom and power to the GMs -start there. A group of participants who fully trust each other should be the target audience for GM mode development. The bar set at the highest level so to speak.

IF, that is IF the developers wanted to appeal to varied styles of game play in live GM mode, the following approach could also be considered-

For the players and GMs who aren't familiar with each other's style of game play, have those folks be able to seek games or events with other GM permissions.

Don't want the GM to be able to flat out kill your character? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to help you? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to etc.? Join a game where that is toggled off.

This approach, default maximum GM power, will most fully utilize the scariest, most exciting and versatile tools of role playing -the brains of the participants.

Sword Coast Legends either missed or misjudged the default max GM power approach, and are now in the process of trying to add more DM/player freedom. It'll be interesting to see how the SCL and D:0S II GM modes shape up.

Nothing quite gets your attention like a human (GM) being able to call the shots in a live computer game. The ultimate "game mechanic" -a live GM. Start there and I believe, everything else naturally follows making this the best live GM mode it can possibly be.

Last edited by Barry Wom; 01/11/15 05:19 AM.
Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Barry Wom] #573473
01/11/15 04:08 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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"Don't want the GM to be able to flat out kill your character? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to help you? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to etc.? Join a game where that is toggled off."

Why would any of this matter? This is someone GMing a game you are in, your character is for their game.

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Caerbanog] #573916
03/11/15 03:35 PM
03/11/15 03:35 PM
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[quote]In NwN, some of these worlds live since ten years, with player connected several times by week. But now, NwN start to becoming really old and a little wearying, so you can understand the hype in the NwN community with the DM mode of D:OS2 :'D [/quote]

I can confirm ! It's a little dream for some player of this community, even if they don't play now.

Last edited by dougbrid; 03/11/15 03:36 PM.
Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Neonivek] #573986
03/11/15 08:23 PM
03/11/15 08:23 PM
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Ayvah Offline

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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
"Don't want the GM to be able to flat out kill your character? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to help you? Join a game where that is toggled off.
Don't want the GM to be able to etc.? Join a game where that is toggled off."

Why would any of this matter? This is someone GMing a game you are in, your character is for their game.

I agree. If you join a game with a GM who has terrible ability or is a troll, having a couple flags like this are going to be meaningless.

Imagine a troll joins a random session as a player and immediately starts killing everything in sight.

We just can't force good behaviour with mechanics like this. A rating system might work, or even just some kind of forum where you can meet people. I think the latter is preferable, because roleplaying is generally a commitment you make for more than just one afternoon.

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: dougbrid] #573988
03/11/15 08:39 PM
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Ayvah Offline

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Originally Posted By: dougbrid
Quote:
In NwN, some of these worlds live since ten years, with player connected several times by week. But now, NwN start to becoming really old and a little wearying, so you can understand the hype in the NwN community with the DM mode of D:OS2 :'D


I can confirm ! It's a little dream for some player of this community, even if they don't play now.

I have to admit, I was never that into NWN. This seems to me like a niche that is already trying to be filled by MMORPGs with dedicated roleplaying servers.

What are you hoping for with D:OS2's GM mode that would be different/better than those MMOs?

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Ayvah] #574580
07/11/15 10:19 AM
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Neonivek Offline

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Originally Posted By: Ayvah

What are you hoping for with D:OS2's GM mode that would be different/better than those MMOs?


Reactivity, social environment, creativity, input, changing the game itself...

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #574919
09/11/15 03:07 PM
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norD Offline OP
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Ok. I came back from vacation and the forum exploded of suggestions.
I'll have a read at everything! ^_^

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #574986
09/11/15 11:29 PM
09/11/15 11:29 PM
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morez Offline
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Originally Posted By: norD
Ok. I came back from vacation and the forum exploded of suggestions.
I'll have a read at everything! ^_^


well, i came home from vacation and in the meanwhile DOS2 was announced, kickstarting already over and the new guy who kindly cares about the community, asks for suggestions and gives dev comments is on vacation ouch


Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Originally Posted By: Ayvah

What are you hoping for with D:OS2's GM mode that would be different/better than those MMOs?


Reactivity, social environment, creativity, input, changing the game itself...


a decentralized playing environment. GM Mode means no competition but control of your possibilites, ideas. A set of playful tools to create the meaningful magic circle of the game, not being restricted by the magic circle of the players' perspective game

Last edited by morez; 09/11/15 11:35 PM.
Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #578202
09/01/16 04:44 PM
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OMG! A DM mode would be awesome!

I really wish to see this implemented on the console versions too!

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #578316
12/01/16 02:55 PM
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Fascinating discussion!

I disagree with those who would make the DM mode somehow just a different player mode, like a god mode, or some buff gained in a round robin.

I agree wholeheartedly with Raith and Ayvah and the others who see a D:OS2 GM toolkit as a creative tool. It should be a way to create online adventures in the way a tabletop DM does for the P&P experience.

However, I don't think that we're talking about one tool. We'll really talking about two different tools, because if we P&P folks want a GM tool that does what the P&P DM does, that's really two *different* tasks.

For the pencil and paper DM, the first task is the preparation ahead of time: creating the environment. This creative task involves drawing maps, designing encounters and traps, and developing NPCs stats and personality.

On game night, the DM has the second task. On game night it is the PnP DM's job to make it all come alive, through descriptions of the world, taking on the role of NPCs, administering game mechanics, and making real-time decisions about how NPCs and monsters react to the player's decisions.

So the the ideal D:OS2 GM tool (IGMT?) should permit the DM to accomplish both tasks.

For the first DM task, the creative planning and preparation task, the IGMT would permit environment creation to be swift, yet provide a great deal of depth. Ideally, for as many ways as there are to describe a 10x10 room with two orcs in it, so should there be ways in the IGMT to model it. For planning and prep, the creation tool should allow for a near-infinite way for GMs to realize their creative vision of their game world. The IGMT should intuitive to use, permit the import of customized content, and permit pre-scripting of encounters with NPCs and enemies.

If the planning goes as the GM intends, game night should be almost entirely hands-off for the GM.

On game night itself, the second tool should be an in-game GM mode -- the 'live' version of the prep/planning IGMT. The level of flexibility -- as well as what is technically possible -- here is debatable. IMHO, the GM needs to at least have the "mind control" ability to take over and play any NPC and monster, to provide depth to the NPC experiences as well as intelligent and unpredictable responses to opponents in combat.

As far as how much the GM can change the environment and game state, or the outcomes of the RNG on-the-fly -- well, more flexibility is better, but I am not sure what the technical limitations are. If I decide to suddenly put a waterfall in the game, do players have to wait while the model downloads and updates on their client? It may be that flexibility may come at a cost in immersion and stability, but I might be wrong about that.

The ideal D:OS2 GM tool would allow the computer to do what the computer does well, and permit the human to do what the human does well, allowing a synergy that combines to bring a play experience unmatched by any current game: the richness, variation, unpredictability and depth of a human-mediated game, allied to the accessibility, speed, visual pleasure and ease of a computer run game.

Last edited by Poptart; 12/01/16 02:57 PM.
Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #578365
14/01/16 05:18 AM
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Xen Offline
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I think they should call it Divinity Master (ie DM) mode :D

I also think a DM mode should be a top priority update along with:
* allowing more than 2 players to join (one roll20 game I play has 8 players for our DM)
* integrating audio communication in game (player either pushes button to talk, or if detected microphone threshold passed it auto activates, like teamspeak - the players avatar then has an exclamation mark overhead while talking).
* allowing the DM to have NPC avatars that don't need scripting since they can do the talking for them (and thus the DM doesn't need much scripting knowledge)
* the DM should also be able to manually set each individual NPC as auto combat or be DM controlled combat, on a turn-by-turn basis.

This could be the best computer based 'Desktop' RPG ever with such modifications, but the trick is to ensure it has an easy basic construction interface for the DM (which would also be easier to code). I myself look forward to crafting beautiful virtual landscapes for players to explore, without having to learn an extensive NPC scripting interface :)

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: Xen] #578373
14/01/16 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: Xen
I think they should call it Divinity Master (ie DM) mode laugh



Win. =)

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #578382
14/01/16 05:37 PM
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norD Offline OP
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Yeah, Divinity Master has been brought up a lot of time, haha.

By the way, sorry guys, I'm not posting that much (like not at all), you know, busy doing the game.
Also, the whole GM mode has been taken cared of by our Russian team like Swen twitted about a few weeks ago.
But don't worry, they read what is here so don't stop posting stuff!

Re: - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas! [Re: norD] #578474
18/01/16 05:00 AM
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After more thought, I think DM mode could also fulfil an on the fly debugging option. This would make it great as a play testing tool for full automated mod makers. It would also enable the DM to learn the editor tools necessary without having to learn all the tools at once to get value from it. IMHO the following are the only essential requirements:
- Procedural generation that can be saved and modified for future use (this should be a standard feature of the editor anyway, even minecraft can do this and it makes world building so much faster and easier; also encompasses Preplan and save an area option)
- Territories and factions (Ayvah's page 4 of this forum suggestion) is also a good idea for the game in general; I suspect the factions are being implemented as races for DOS 2, but should be generalised (e.g. Immaculates Vs followers of the seven).
- DM playing monsters OR AI controlled (depending what the DM wants to do, changeable on the fly and specific to each NPC)
- Alter NPC attitudes on the fly; NPCs have a different attitude level for each character, the initial value being determined by faction/race relations between the NPC and PC, but alterable by DM.
- Initiate/end fights on the fly
- Add/Remove enemies, traps and such on the fly
- Permadeath/new character option (this means DM should be able to arbitrarily give XP bonus/penalty to PCs whenever they want)
- Chat channels (particularly private chat where DM can single out player subset of 1 or more). Having in game audio channels would be cool, but teamspeak etc can fulfil that requirement. However a whisper [text] feature is essential, perhaps only available when PC/PC or PC/NPC are next to each other in game smile

4 players and 1 DM should be more than enough, but capping at default 8 players makes sense - even the AI takes several seconds per NPC per turn, and a DM controlled NPC will take longer. With 1 character per player, such delays will start becoming noticeable if there are too many characters in a fight; there's a good reason most desktop rpg groups have 3-5 players.

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