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Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588480
22/09/16 07:33 AM
22/09/16 07:33 AM
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Vontariel Offline
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The idea of shield is to sacrifice some offensive capabilites for more defense/utility.
How about for shield to have some armor regen (up to point)? Let's say equipping shield gives you 2X armor. Each combat turn X armor is regenerated, up to 2X (provided by shield). In current state bonus (aka "2X") is too small to consider even with suggested regen, so values should be adjusted.
Combined with suggested above shield knockdown as attack of opportunity talent, and we have shields as viable choice.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588666
22/09/16 09:04 PM
22/09/16 09:04 PM
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Grondoth Offline OP
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I REALLY like shields giving a free ability to heal back their armour value. That's super good.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588668
22/09/16 09:08 PM
22/09/16 09:08 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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Or better yet instead of just making it a skill and all that... (which can happen in addition)

How about it just recovers its armor entirely every single turn AND it is always the first armor that gets hit.

It wouldn't be overpowered (as even the most powerful shield only has so much armor) and would actually be somewhat potent.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Neonivek] #588679
22/09/16 10:24 PM
22/09/16 10:24 PM
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I actually kinda like the idea of a shield having its own armor pool that regens. A shielded target would actually have to be handled slightly differently from a tactical perspective. It would be hard to make sure that it didn't get unbalanced though. But the truth is, with it adding 1AP to your weapon attack, it needs SOMETHING that it gives you on a turn by turn basis. a second weapons gives you extra damage every attack, multiple times a turn. A shield needs a constant bonus. At its current state, it makes sense to use a shield for turn one, then unequip it after your armor is gone for 1AP attacks.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: NinjaWithSpoons] #588683
22/09/16 10:55 PM
22/09/16 10:55 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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Ohh by every turn I mean "Every single person's turn" not just your own.

So if it has 21 armor... You get 21 armor every turn assuming you lose it.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588688
22/09/16 11:13 PM
22/09/16 11:13 PM
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Ayvah Offline

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Let me ask a related question.

Is there any point to dual-wielding? You can equip your best weapon in one hand, and just attack twice as often with none of the dual-wielding penalties. Doesn't this make one-handed weapons OP?

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Ayvah] #588689
22/09/16 11:22 PM
22/09/16 11:22 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Let me ask a related question.

Is there any point to dual-wielding? You can equip your best weapon in one hand, and just attack twice as often with none of the dual-wielding penalties. Doesn't this make one-handed weapons OP?


Later on Dual-Wielding allows you to make 3, 4, or 5 attacks in a single attack... AND ends up getting a damage bonus.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Neonivek] #588692
22/09/16 11:25 PM
22/09/16 11:25 PM
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Limz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Originally Posted By: Ayvah
Let me ask a related question.

Is there any point to dual-wielding? You can equip your best weapon in one hand, and just attack twice as often with none of the dual-wielding penalties. Doesn't this make one-handed weapons OP?


Later on Dual-Wielding allows you to make 3, 4, or 5 attacks in a single attack... AND ends up getting a damage bonus.


Also crit chance.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588724
23/09/16 01:53 AM
23/09/16 01:53 AM
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I think Larian is trying to get away from RNG based defenses. I think to balance shields all shields need to come automatically with both Magic and Physical defense. In beta I played a sword and board dwarf and happened to get a very nice shield with as much armor as a unique bplate but still was not worth the investment and 2h was far more effective.

On top of that there need to be shield specific skillbooks that only work if one has a shield equipped. Those 2 things will make shields great again. *hair flop*

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Malvolio] #588848
23/09/16 03:28 PM
23/09/16 03:28 PM
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I think the best way to balance shields is to make targeting someone wearing one cost one extra AP for single target attacks, unless you are backstabbing them.
This simulates taking extra time to aim the attack, balances the current issue of them adding AP to the actions of the wielder and means that a tank wearing one will be suited to locking down enemies.

Thoughts?

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: LordCrash] #588852
23/09/16 03:44 PM
23/09/16 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: LordCrash
Originally Posted By: Grondoth
I've only had crap shields, but does block ever show up on shields in this game? Since it's an equipment slot that could be taken up with a weapon for dual wielding or switched to a 2 handed weapon, it having only additional physical armour makes it so it's wasted after that bar is depleted, and less useful the longer the fight goes. So do any good shields eventually give block?

I think shields should indeed be reworked.

They should offer:

- much more physical armour than they currently offer (a shield bearer is the typical tank!)
- more and better status effects and bonuses

Introducing a special block system just for shields would imo require two much work and would at least partially be redundant with how physical armour works. But without much better stats shields are indeed kind of pointless, since the take away your second hand and since they also cost 1 additional AP in combat (which is imo spot on if correctly balanced with serious benefits).



Right. As it stands, shields are nothing but an additional armorpiece, which is pretty uninspiring.

In Dragon Age Inquisition, shields reduce all damage taken from the front by 30%. A similar system could be introduced here.

But all of that is moot if aggromanipulation is not introduced.

A 'pure' tank character is useless, as there are currently no way to taunt the enemies into attacking your tank, or punish them for lack of doing so.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588859
23/09/16 04:46 PM
23/09/16 04:46 PM
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meme Offline

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Yea in DOS:1 I tried shield vs two hander and quickly found shield sucked. Near the end of the game there are some interesting 1 handers that make things a little interesting but it was hard to compete against that pure damage.

In (some) other rpgs; I always used shield because I favored defense vs offense and depended on casters to do most of the damage; but those were other games. I learned my lesson how to play warriors in D:OS-1 smile

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Neonivek] #588862
23/09/16 05:21 PM
23/09/16 05:21 PM
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My Lizard switched from using Finesse spears to 1H weapons without shields, because the best defense is a good offense, and you can attack a lot more with 1H weapons and remove threats faster. It seems more helpful than the handful of armor you get from shields.

It's true that right now Shields don't offer enough defense to be worth an extra AP per attack. Enemies can still cut through it fast. But there is a lot of wheel reinventing happening here.

Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Ohh by every turn I mean "Every single person's turn" not just your own.

So if it has 21 armor... You get 21 armor every turn assuming you lose it.


I assume that such shields would be only Magic OR Physical armor, not both combined, and that the armor provided by shields remains at current "meh" levels.

Even so, that means having a shield is free immunity from CC attacks from whatever type of damage the shield blocks.


Originally Posted By: hairyscotsman
I think the best way to balance shields is to make targeting someone wearing one cost one extra AP for single target attacks, unless you are backstabbing them.
This simulates taking extra time to aim the attack, balances the current issue of them adding AP to the actions of the wielder and means that a tank wearing one will be suited to locking down enemies.

Thoughts?


So the AP cost for an attack depends not on the kind of attack you're using, but the kind of equipment they have? ...I do not think that is a good idea at all. It's unintuitive and goes against the way AP works.


Originally Posted By: Cavemandiary
Right. As it stands, shields are nothing but an additional armorpiece, which is pretty uninspiring.

In Dragon Age Inquisition, shields reduce all damage taken from the front by 30%. A similar system could be introduced here.


The AI is probably too dumb to understand how to use that. A player can just walk behind the enemy and attack them and poof, the enemy shield is ineffective. In PvP combat, it makes using a shield worthless, especially if it adds an extra AP to attacks.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588889
23/09/16 07:27 PM
23/09/16 07:27 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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"I assume that such shields would be only Magic OR Physical armor, not both combined, and that the armor provided by shields remains at current "meh" levels.

Even so, that means having a shield is free immunity from CC attacks from whatever type of damage the shield blocks."

It wouldn't because the way CC works penetrating armor means the CC hits. As well the CPU could just damage through it.

As well Shields should be both... You are sacrificing a weapon and a lot of damage.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588921
23/09/16 09:58 PM
23/09/16 09:58 PM
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M3SS3NG3R Offline

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Been brainstorming a bit. Here's another shield skill:

--------------------
New Skill: Interdict (requires shield)
School: Warfare
AP Cost: 1
Source Cost: 1
Memory Slot: 2
Cooldown: 3 turns
Range: 15.0 m
Target: other enemies within range
The character changes his initiative for the next turn (and next turn only) to act immediately before the target enemy. He also starts the next turn with maximum AP (temporarily overrides adrenaline!).

Algorithm specifics: if the target has the highest initiative of all characters in the current battle (call it X), the user's initiative for the next turn is X + 1. Otherwise it becomes (X + Y)/2, where Y is the initiative of the character that has his turn order immediately preceding the target in the next turn.

I think this is a very powerful skill. It allows the shield user to interject himself into either moving very early in the next turn, interrupt an incoming enemy attack by moving right before he does, or chaining some sort of combo. It's also a rare skill that directly changes upcoming turn orders by manipulating initiative (which AFAIK, we don't have any skill that makes use of this mechanic). Also notice that an enemy can counter this in the same turn by either using their own interdict afterwards and target the same fighter or CC him to prevent his interdiction turn. Notice that whoever that interdicts first is most likely going to get hard-countered, so this is one of the few times where moving last may prove to be a huge advantage (delay turn mind game!). Probably going to cause a headache for the AI programmer though, since I do believe it has quite a bit of tactical depth.
--------------------

Last edited by M3SS3NG3R; 23/09/16 10:01 PM.
Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588922
23/09/16 10:13 PM
23/09/16 10:13 PM
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Nuked Offline

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Just had another thought. Since all shields do right now is give you a little extra armour and add 1 AP to your attacks, the simplest "fix", is just to remove the 1 AP cost from all shields.

This means that one-handed simply means you can (and should) use a shield (for a little bit of bonus armour and probably some kind of bonus stat for special shields).

Maybe Larian tried this and thought it was too unbalanced, but I feel like the only viable way to play one-handed right now is simply to unequip your shield.

Are any stat bonuses a shield gives really going to be worth 1 AP on every attack you make?

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588923
23/09/16 10:17 PM
23/09/16 10:17 PM
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Stabbey Offline
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That seems quite complicated.

- By "next turn only" do you mean "next turn only for each use" or "next turn only, once-per-battle-only"? EDIT: Source point requirement, so that's pretty much only a once-per-battle thing.
- What's to stop that character from using his new first-turn initiative and sudden 6 AP to instead attack any enemy he feels like and killing them instead of the target enemy? If nothing, then it doesn't seem like this needs to target an enemy at all, but move the user to before any enemies move (since everyone will use this to move before the fastest enemy in range).
- If a fighter is using this ability, it already implies that most enemies in the turn move before his allies, and many may have already moved. So how likely is it that an enemy will be able to use their own Interdect to cancel the fighters, since if he's using it, he's likely moving after the enemies have already acted in that turn.
- The shield requirement seems to serve no function except to ensure that the fighter has to spend 2 AP to do weak attacks.

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Stabbey] #588924
23/09/16 11:00 PM
23/09/16 11:00 PM
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M3SS3NG3R Offline

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Originally Posted By: Nuked
Just had another thought. Since all shields do right now is give you a little extra armour and add 1 AP to your attacks, the simplest "fix", is just to remove the 1 AP cost from all shields.

This means that one-handed simply means you can (and should) use a shield (for a little bit of bonus armour and probably some kind of bonus stat for special shields).

Maybe Larian tried this and thought it was too unbalanced, but I feel like the only viable way to play one-handed right now is simply to unequip your shield.

Are any stat bonuses a shield gives really going to be worth 1 AP on every attack you make?


I can see why they did it because there should be a tactical advantage to use one hand no shield as opposed to one hand with shield. Although an extra AP cost per attack is a bit too high the price. That's why I suggested a talent to remove the extra AP cost on the first page.

Originally Posted By: Stabbey
That seems quite complicated.

- By "next turn only" do you mean "next turn only for each use" or "next turn only, once-per-battle-only"? EDIT: Source point requirement, so that's pretty much only a once-per-battle thing.


I meant it causes the fighter's initiative to change for the very next turn after the skill is used (and only for the very next turn). So the turn order will revert back to be computed using the fighter's natural initiative for all other turns afterwards unless the skill is used again.

Quote:

- What's to stop that character from using his new first-turn initiative and sudden 6 AP to instead attack any enemy he feels like and killing them instead of the target enemy? If nothing, then it doesn't seem like this needs to target an enemy at all, but move the user to before any enemies move (since everyone will use this to move before the fastest enemy in range).


You are right, it doesn't stop the fighter from using his 6 AP to kill anyone he wants. The ability is meant to provide turn order flexibility not to restrict the fighter into attacking a specific target. However, I made targeting an enemy a requirement to allow two things:

1. Provide some restrictions on who you can interdict (and therefore exactly when you move the next turn) because there's also a range limit.

2. Allow you to not necessarily move first, but rather move after certain characters such as party members that happens to have an enemy that moves right after him. This is to give players the ability to construct combos with multiple party members without using delay turns.

Quote:

- If a fighter is using this ability, it already implies that most enemies in the turn move before his allies, and many may have already moved. So how likely is it that an enemy will be able to use their own Interdect to cancel the fighters, since if he's using it, he's likely moving after the enemies have already acted in that turn.


I don't believe it implies that most enemies in the turn move before his allies. This ability is perfectly viable even if the enemies don't move before your allies -> the key is to change turn order and provide combo opportunity or assassination opportunity at key moments. For example, it's better to make your fighter move later than your mage if said mage can buff him into a maniac or get rid of key target's physical armor first. Also, like I said, delay turn mind games. I don't expect the AI is going to take to it too well any time soon but people should figure out nice tricks with it in the arena.

Quote:

- The shield requirement seems to serve no function except to ensure that the fighter has to spend 2 AP to do weak attacks.


That's right. It's mainly for flavor and balance. Think of it like just as an enemy is about to attack or move your fighter interrupts him with a quick shield bash/throw powered by source and goes berserk before the enemy recovers.

Edit: also forgot to mention, since this is one of those skills that only shows its powers in a turn OUTSIDE the current turn, the easiest counter to it is to focus fire the user and CC or straight up kill him. The fact that it requires a shield plays into the "tank" archetype where a character with high defensive stats draws fire from the enemy without actually using a skill like taunt to force it. A mental taunt directly on your opponent's mind if you will.

Last edited by M3SS3NG3R; 23/09/16 11:33 PM.
Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Grondoth] #588936
24/09/16 12:37 AM
24/09/16 12:37 AM
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Quote:
I can see why they did it because there should be a tactical advantage to use one hand no shield as opposed to one hand with shield.

Ehm... why?

Defense - 1 with shield.
Offense - 2-handed or dual-wield.

What possible area does one-handed without shield fit?

Re: Block on Shields? [Re: Hassat Hunter] #588945
24/09/16 02:04 AM
24/09/16 02:04 AM
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M3SS3NG3R Offline

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Originally Posted By: Hassat Hunter
Quote:
I can see why they did it because there should be a tactical advantage to use one hand no shield as opposed to one hand with shield.

Ehm... why?

Defense - 1 with shield.
Offense - 2-handed or dual-wield.

What possible area does one-handed without shield fit?


Fencer? Duelist? Fighters/rogues that prefer fast, multiple attacks with the flexibility of using 1 AP skills to get out of a jam? Elf huntsman/rogue hybrid with a 1 handed weapon no shield is quite possibly the strongest burst damage dealer in the game right now. If you simply take away the extra AP cost due to shield this entire archetype disappears.

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