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I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) #595144
04/11/16 02:29 PM
04/11/16 02:29 PM
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Neonivek Offline OP

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I'll just put my thoughts here instead of making a huge thread. Feel free to, as most places do, to defend the game as if I attacked you personally... it would be weird if you did otherwise. I need to say it and the game has been out long enough that people shouldn't feel too offended that someone dare tarnish the game even slightly.

I honestly have no idea if I would have still kickstarted the game knowing what I know now. I liked the first game quite a bit, but one thing I know I'd do differently is advertising the game to others. I wouldn't recommend this game to anyone who wasn't a fan of the first game, this game does NOT break out as a obvious huge improvement.

Namely there are three major features highly advertised that aren't anything like they were presented as. They are as follows

1) The Origin System:
-Advertised: You create a character crafting not only their skills and expertise but also their past and their role in this world. Are you a noble of a great house, a foothold in the governance of this specific world? Perhaps you will meet your old friends and allies along the way engrossing your own personal character in this world. A feature never before seen at this scale putting even the likes of Dragon Age Origin to shame!
-Actuality: You can either play a complete blank slate which every single other game does as it is. Or you can play 4+ characters that Larian made themselves. In other words this series has went from what nearly every RPG in existence does and "Lets you make your own character" and instead settles for letting you play their character with less personality then a JRPG character overall.
-Double Bonus: The "Generic character Aspirations" are just bits and pieces of the Larian Characters.

2) Parallel Questing
-Advertised: No longer are you forced to hold hands as you adventure this world doing your own quests and achieving your own goals. You are often even forced to settle your differences through blade instead of word!
-Actuality: You are still forced to hold hands and the number of instances where you can disagree on a quest are very slim even when the situation calls for it.

3) Skill Crafting
-Advertised: Combine skills together to form new ones with many stunning possibilities. Perhaps combining a Summon Spider with a Oil spell will create a Oil spider, add fire and you get a flaming Spider
-Actuality (In theory at least): You can combine two skills to create a new skill... all which are preset with no permutations.
---This could be entirely wrong... in fact I hope it is...

---

So all in all what are the features in this game that I honest to goodness believe are better than the first that everyone should appreciate?

There is far better skill synergy between trees (that I hope continues to work), the skill trees are far better and well thought out, CC is kind of sort of not overpowered (it has issues, but that can be ironed out)... and I will always appreciate the lack of Rock Scissor paper.

It isn't my full list I am sure I forgot some. Though not all features you appreciate I necessarily do. I find some of the skill bonuses to be far too gamey.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595145
04/11/16 03:16 PM
04/11/16 03:16 PM
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kcnik Offline

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We are talking about an ALPHA Version, dont take anything thats in the game right now as "this is final".

1) Where did you get THAT from.
This is from the Steam page:
Choose your origin story. Choose one of the unique origin stories that will define your character's background and your personal quests. For the first time in a Divinity game, play as a Human, Lizard, Elf, Dwarf, or Undead, each with unique racial skills. Watch the world and its inhabitants react to who you are and what you've done, unlocking new dialog options and quest lines. Or create your own story by building your character from the ground up.

And thats a pretty good description of what you can expect. On the kickstarter page its about the same, though im not if it was changed after the kickstarter campaign.

2) Well yeah, in the current alpha version you cant really play the competitive questing, because all the characters have the same goal: leave this island.

3) I hope you know that not even the standard crafting is done yet. Not even close to be done.


[Insert something funny here]
Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595146
04/11/16 04:43 PM
04/11/16 04:43 PM
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Kelsier Offline
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Yeah - we're months, literally months away from release. Maybe this would be more relevant if all of these still applied in spring 2017.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595147
04/11/16 05:28 PM
04/11/16 05:28 PM
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Naqel Offline
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While it is still too early to really tell, I also don't quite like how the Origin situation is handled.

-Origin characters should have just been pre-made ones for people who never played an RPG before, not the main focus of the game. You can't really have a robust character customization, and characters with rather specific backgrounds both at once.

-There should be some balance in Aspirations versus an Origin, like Origin characters getting only one Aspiration, or even none at all and the choice in that regard should matter beyond the odd conversation. Things like aspiration talents, quests, etc. should exist.

-There should be, regardless of Origin character existence, other characters you can pick up along your journey of which there is none so far.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595148
04/11/16 05:47 PM
04/11/16 05:47 PM
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Kelsier Offline
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There's a rule of thumb I feel is relevant here. You either do many customizable blank slate characters OR you do ONE specific origin character. If you try for a middle road here, balancing that out is going to be hell

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Naqel] #595149
04/11/16 05:51 PM
04/11/16 05:51 PM
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Neonivek Offline OP

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Quote:
Or create your own story by building your character from the ground up.

And thats a pretty good description of what you can expect. On the kickstarter page its about the same, though im not if it was changed after the kickstarter campaign.


A few things about that. Originally the plan was... Exactly what it says without stretching definitions far FAR outside where someone would reasonably define it. They just decided against it.

As for "What gave you that idea?"... Just read what you wrote.

It says "Origin stories", not "Characters" which is a huge difference between them.

One suggests applying a story to your character or even creating a custom story.

What they went with is playing their characters...

Kind of a huge gulf of difference...

Which normally the defense would be "Fine, don't use that feature" but it has got its grubby fingers all over the place. You CAN'T ignore it because the character YOU MAKE is just an amalgamation of them.

Heck, there is nothing wrong with playing a preset character. My favorite RPG of all time has a set main character and a linear story. The difference is it didn't go "Craft your own character!" because you can give him any name you want.

Quote:
2) Well yeah, in the current alpha version you cant really play the competitive questing, because all the characters have the same goal: leave this island


Yes because in the first few hours of gameplay that is meant to highlight the gameplay for the rest of the game... The first 35% of the game minimum that has been more carefully crafted then any other part of the game.

Almost completely ignores that feature for roleplay sake.

Quote:
3) I hope you know that not even the standard crafting is done yet. Not even close to be done


There is just so little evidence that it will even be as intended as the goal. Especially since we already see the prototypes.

So I'd bank on it not coming to fruition.

Last edited by Neonivek; 04/11/16 05:59 PM.
Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595150
04/11/16 05:57 PM
04/11/16 05:57 PM
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Neonivek Offline OP

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Quote:
There's a rule of thumb I feel is relevant here. You either do many customizable blank slate characters OR you do ONE specific origin character. If you try for a middle road here, balancing that out is going to be hell


There are ways to do it. Though you have to have vision and a clear idea going into it. (One of the fallouts did it... but it did it by having freedom of character trump origin)

Though the funny thing is that neither of those is what the game has.

Last edited by Neonivek; 04/11/16 05:59 PM.
Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595151
04/11/16 06:16 PM
04/11/16 06:16 PM
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Linio Offline

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1) The origin system is a huge letdown.
The fact that there actually are preset character is pointing to a direction that's just plain bad. I too thought the "tag" system would actually be the only system, and that you'd be able to pick several tags and go from there, but nope.

3) I'm pretty sure in the end the system won't be that big. The thing is, since they're trying to redo the whole combat shenanigan, a lot of energy will be placed there.

That's actually what scares me a little, how a lot of things are going back to square one.
Combat was good the way it was, sure, there was too much CC, but this could have been handled, so we're going back to creating a whole new system.
Skills was not that bad (in the first opus even), in EE there was a first wiping of skills, and now there's even a whole new system imagined with the skill trees and all, for what purpose? Who knows?
Split screen coop? Nope, let's just remove that altogether.
Graphics? Let's do something more serious.
And the list goes on and on.

I was advertised a D:OS 2 who would be the continuation of the first opus with new stuff, and I must say I'm pretty disappointed where this is going as of now

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595158
04/11/16 10:27 PM
04/11/16 10:27 PM
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Sorry to hear that you're disappointed with the Origin Characters. So far, I've enjoyed their stories and I don't regret my monetary investment at all. However, I do agree that they could probably take the tag system a little further to make custom characters feel more alive.

With regard to the competitive questing, these features aren't even in the game yet (as far a single player goes). In the future we will not be able to select our companion's choices for them. They will act based on their personality, which will likely lead to conflict within certain party make-ups. There is an interview with Sven floating around out there that discusses this issue in more detail. It also discusses the general direction of Early Access and what other features we will be able to play test. I recommend checking it out.

And with regard to skill crafting, it hasn't been implemented into the early access version yet. Nor has the majority of all crafting for that matter. So we don't yet know what this will look like.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595186
05/11/16 10:59 AM
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Neonivek Offline OP

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Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.

I am happy!

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595190
05/11/16 02:49 PM
05/11/16 02:49 PM
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Naqel Offline
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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.


It's not like your concerns are unfounded, and some of them are shared by the broader community to some extent.

It also helps that the OP wasn't "larian sux dix lmao!!!1".

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Naqel] #595191
05/11/16 03:34 PM
05/11/16 03:34 PM
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Linio Offline

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Originally Posted By: Naqel
Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.


It's not like your concerns are unfounded, and some of them are shared by the broader community to some extent.


My thoughts exactly.
I was like "well the fact that it didn't went into a flamewar may not actually be such a good thing for the game because it seems to indicate that there are indeed some shared concerns...

Hopefully, since Larian reads all, it will be picked up.
On my end, I'm totally worried by this coop thing. My friend will be pissed...

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595192
05/11/16 04:26 PM
05/11/16 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Wow, this thread is a lot more civil then I thought it would end up being.

I am happy!


Probably because I haven't been participating in the thread. wink

I do think though, that if you're going to say "Advertised: ", you should follow it up with an ACTUAL quote. Like if I watched a car ad say "Gets 6.2 L/100 km", I could not then say "Advertised: Never stop for gas again!" and complain that I was being ripped off when the car ran out of gas.

Additionally, Kickstarters are almost always for games which are by definition unfinished. While the ideas are given in broad strokes, the finer details are not filled in yet. And the details are where the complications with actually implementing the ideas set in. (In fewer words, "SH-T HAPPENS".)

***

1) Here is the quote on the kickstarter page:

Quote:
At the start of the game, you pick a single character and determine your starting stats, race, and origin story.


While in isolation, that does indeed seem to indicate that race is separate from chosen origin story, looking at even the Island Heir(ess) example from the Kickstarter demo, it seems clear that origin and race would need to be tied together in most cases. The island discriminates against Dwarves and is ruled by Humans. A Human Lord with the player as a Dwarf Heir wouldn't work, nor would a Dwarf Heir player with Dwarf Lord parents work in the context of the island culture.

Quote:
Perhaps you will meet your old friends and allies along the way engrossing your own personal character in this world.


Just a reminder that the first act takes place in a concentration camp located on Horrible Torture Amusement Park Island, so we can't use Act 1 to declare that the "meeting old friends and allies" part is false.


Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Or you can play 4+ characters that Larian made themselves.


Well how exactly do you think Origin stories are supposed to work in a computer game? Computer games cannot work on the same rules as Pen and Paper RPG's with a Human Game Master controlling everything. Every single thing in a computer game, every NPC, every line of dialogue, everything must be put in by hand by someone from Larian. Then, it must be sealed up into a box and sent out into the wild for the public to use. It is expected to work without Larian being able to step in and make changes.

I suppose it might be possible to have lots of little tiny setpieces which are randomly chosen, but that would not make for a coherent origin, nor would it seem carefully crafted.


Quote:
and instead settles for letting you play their character with less personality then a JRPG character overall.


This is a fair enough point. One way they could give more personality to characters might be to replace the generic "*Say that...*" dialogue with individual lines for each origin plus a generic line, but that depends on time, budget, workload, and even then interpretations of the exact same character can vary from player to player.


2) I agree that the parallel questing thing is inherently going to be problematic largely because of engine and optimization limitations. Because only one map at a time can be loaded in memory and there are only certain ways to progress from one map to the next, and you need to all go at the same time, that requires cooperation at certain points. That severely undercuts the point of competitive questing in my opinion.

Of course, I am not at all a fan of competitive questing, as I only really play single-player, and competitive questing is - to single-players - a useless waste of time and resources.

No, I do not at all believe Swen's claim that it makes the single-player better. I believe that he talked along similar lines for D:OS 1, in which allowing the party to freely roam around and split up made it better by forcing them to not take shortcuts. That was a lie, because they still took the exact same shortcuts as single-player games, what with instant flags and teleporting NPC's.

Those same immersion-breaking shortcuts are still in D:OS 2. Just look what happens if you have one person up near the Seeker's camp at the same time as a second person tells Garath that the way is clear the boats. The Seekers shuffle around the camp a little bit then instantly teleport to their camp. Just as instantly a bunch of traps and a Magister instantly appear in that area as well, and the Magister is surprised when you talk to him, even if you were literally standing on the stone pillar where he appears when he appeared. Along the same lines, as a prisoner you can be out of sight of the guards for ages doing all kinds of sneaky things, but the instant you leave the fort, you are flagged as an escapee to be killed on sight if you return, even if you were only away for 20 seconds.


3) First, basic crafting is not in the game yet - this is still Patch Zero, much less skill-crafting. It's a bit soon to declare skill crafting as a failure (which does not mean that it will not eventually end up being a failure, just that it is too soon to write it off).

Secondly it should hopefully have been obvious to most people that Larian probably would not allow you to use Combined Skillbooks (created through combining Normal Skillbooks) in crafting to make a second crafted skillbook. That would quickly get out of control as people mashed crafted skills together to make incredibly absurd skills ad infinitum.

So while "Oil + Summon Spider = Summon Oil Spider" sounds like a potentially valid combination, I don't see how adding fire would do anything except turn your oil spider into a "Dead, Flaming Spider".

Last edited by Stabbey; 05/11/16 09:26 PM. Reason: pen and paper
Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595197
05/11/16 05:09 PM
05/11/16 05:09 PM
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Baardvark Offline
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I'm also curious what the OP really imagines for "true origin" stories. Choosing to be a noble of a great house sounds a lot like Red Prince. But I suppose the OP means you could be any noble, or a beggar, or whatever. Maybe you could lay several small choices of several different events in your past which would influence character responses throughout the game? So, you could be a corrupt merchant who allied with bandits and helped them take over a town, or a honest merchant who sided with the town to fight bandits, or a honest soldier who fought the bandits, or any combination of those aspects, etc.

And, as Stabbey said, these might set up certain set pieces or friends or enemies or events showing up in a modular way. But that all likely would be a massive amount of work for a relatively incoherent experience. Specific character origins that you can shape how you want is both less work, and much more likely to produce interesting stories. The way I see it, the origin stories concept was largely in relation to D:OS1, where you had one possible background as a source hunter. But in D:OS2, you could have 6 or so different origins. So, yes maybe "origin stories" in this case basically means "preset characters," but it's hard to imagine another possibility that would be any good.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595200
05/11/16 06:46 PM
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Even if the stories are quite preset, you still can decide how far you follow them through, like the torturing part.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Neonivek] #595203
05/11/16 09:42 PM
05/11/16 09:42 PM
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Linio Offline

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I really don't get the last points.
The origins could be only set by the tags.
Remove the answer tied to a specific origin story and instead tie them to a few more tags...

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Linio] #595204
05/11/16 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Linio
I really don't get the last points.
The origins could be only set by the tags.
Remove the answer tied to a specific origin story and instead tie them to a few more tags...


OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.

IRe: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Stabbey] #595212
06/11/16 12:02 AM
06/11/16 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.


I'm hoping that either Larian (or some ambitious modders after release) expand the tag system into a variety of subsets which can all individually be used to make a character, so instead of a tag for "Red Prince" you could have a tag that links together all the "arrogant" comments, or all the "Royal" proclamations. I know this would lead to missing out on certain dialogue options that did reference a racial quality or a specific trait unique to someone like the Red Prince, but with a big enough cross-reference collection if would be cool to select a collection of traits to make your character your own, even if it's just an advanced option.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Stabbey] #595216
06/11/16 06:50 AM
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Naqel Offline
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
OK. I create a female Dwarf and pick the tag "Red Prince" to produce a female dwarf who somehow is an heir to the lizard kingdom.


Strawmen aren't very good opponents in discussion, and it makes you look silly to fight them.

The point is: Red Prince's story wouldn't be all that different if instead of a unique red lizard, he was a lizard with tags Prince, Asshole, Exotic Appearance.

You replace the references of his specific skin color with vague mentions of an unusual scar/birthmark/mole/etc., and his story can be easily adjusted to contextually fit any race.

Re: I feel kind of ripped off (Lament Thread) [Re: Naqel] #595218
06/11/16 09:16 AM
06/11/16 09:16 AM
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Linio Offline

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Originally Posted By: Naqel

Strawmen aren't very good opponents in discussion, and it makes you look silly to fight them.


That was totally uncalled for.
My point was valid, and there was no need to write three pages about it just for the hell of it.
Instead of having origin stories tied to a specific character you could have only tags.
And about the comment of Stabbey, it's simple to give a trolling counter example.
"Red Prince" is not a tag, it's an origin story.
A tag would be "prince" for example, or "heir of the royal family", hence if you'd pick a "female dwarf", she could be the heiress of the dwarf empire, and you could imagine several scenarios, like some races/sex not being able to have certain tags, certain tags being mutually exclusive, etc...
You could think of an intelligent system just like you have in paper RPG, you wouldn't need origin stories for that.
And that's pretty much what you got from my post so... Point was made.

Originally Posted By: Stabbey

Probably because I haven't been participating in the thread. wink


I'm starting to understand this smile

Anyway, I hope I made my point, and I've pretty much nothing else to add, I hope the system will see some changes, but I'm pretty sure this is a moo point since the origin stories are there, and I don't see why they'd remove them, plus, it's clear it's the path they chose, so it's pretty much a lost battle.

Last edited by Linio; 06/11/16 09:17 AM.
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