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Old Saving Throw Mechanism #595675
18/11/16 07:48 PM
18/11/16 07:48 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline OP

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Dark_Ansem  Offline OP

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So, it is safe to say that bodybuilding and willpower are gone? That's too bad. that means there is absolutely no barrier once armor is gone.

Which I suppose is another snag with the armor system. Last time I checked it wasn't super popular.


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Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595687
19/11/16 03:26 AM
19/11/16 03:26 AM
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Scotland
hairyscotsman Offline
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Or there's a very active minority who don't like it

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: hairyscotsman] #595689
19/11/16 04:56 AM
19/11/16 04:56 AM
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Naqel Offline
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Originally Posted By: hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it


I'm pretty certain the system was judged to be horribly flawed by pretty much everyone.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Naqel] #595690
19/11/16 05:49 AM
19/11/16 05:49 AM
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TraceChaos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Naqel
Originally Posted By: hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it


I'm pretty certain the system was judged to be horribly flawed by pretty much everyone.


Well, no, I think that the armor system's great. It prevents RNG from being god, and instead means durability and tactics are important as heck.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595695
19/11/16 06:57 AM
19/11/16 06:57 AM
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I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Raze] #595698
19/11/16 08:49 AM
19/11/16 08:49 AM
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Dark_Ansem Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Raze

I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.


I don't particularly dislike it: but I DO believe that it might work best by COMPLEMENTING a saving throw (traditional) system, rather than completely overriding it.

It does not make much sense to be completely vulnerable once armor is out, and somewhat cheapens battle depth.

And thanks for the heads-up about a patch smile

Last edited by Dark_Ansem; 19/11/16 08:50 AM.

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Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595793
22/11/16 01:20 AM
22/11/16 01:20 AM
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Ludvig Offline
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Just want to point out that i am among the silent crowd that actiully enjoy the new system.

I prefer having the knowledge to predict what will happen, that helps my decision making, when it was based on % so did you have to just go with the odds and hope for the best.

That said, its not like i think the new system is perfect, for starters so would i like to see more ways to regenerate armor.

For what i understand by Raze so is additions coming to the armor system which i look forward to.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Raze] #595816
22/11/16 10:28 AM
22/11/16 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: Raze

I think 'horribly flawed' is a bit of an exaggeration. There are issues with how it currently is in the alpha; future updates (including the one going through QA now) will add features or make refinements, etc.


Indeed.

To be honest, the system has potential, but in it's current state it is far too polarized.

A simple and rather elegant way to improve the system would be to have your % of armor remaining dictating your % chance to avoid CC. For example, if you have 100 total armor, take 20 damage your armor is now 80, which is also 80%. Your chance to avoid CC is now 80%.

This doesn't void armor stacking, and it adds an element of "expected RNG" that allows you to influence your own odds in a skillful way.

Naturally this is a nerf to the current system, so it has to be compensated by either increasing armor values across the board or by adding more ways to regenerate armor.

I would prefer the ladder, as those mechanics are scarse. Right now I think it's only fortify for physical armor and frost armor for magical?

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595824
22/11/16 02:01 PM
22/11/16 02:01 PM
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Surrealialis Offline
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Hated saving throws.
Love armor mechanic, even as is. (though we can make it better)

TL:DR Armor>>>>>>>>>>>saving throws

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595837
22/11/16 08:35 PM
22/11/16 08:35 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline OP

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Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But none of you can deny the system is broken.


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Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595840
22/11/16 10:04 PM
22/11/16 10:04 PM
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TraceChaos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dark_Ansem
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But none of you can deny the system is broken.

IT's not broken though, and thus I'm denying that.
Legit ; it's good as is. Could it be improved upon? Yes. Specifically I liked the idea someone else suggested of saving throws with no armor, and armor just making you up and immune.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #595841
22/11/16 10:09 PM
22/11/16 10:09 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline OP

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Well, I thank you for the vote of confidence. But such a glaring omission identifies a broken system!


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Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596209
02/12/16 11:43 PM
02/12/16 11:43 PM
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I don't like RNG, so I don't like saving throws.

But I don't like current system either cause it's too "all or nothing". Once the armour is gone, the character turns into a helpless ragdoll. I'd prefer saving throws to this tbh.

Maybe a better system would be to have armour passively regenerate each turn, so you actually have to overcome it every time and not just once (not fully, but some %). I'd also let characters gain some small amount of both physical and magic armour through leveling to not rely 100% on itemisation. Not sure if there's a possibility for a drastic redesign here though.

Alternatively at least give some temporary hard CC immunity after suffering through one e.g. being stunned granting a stun immunity for the next 2 turns, so it's more difficult to chain CC stuff (I hope the game would have good difficulty and battles will last for more than 1 turn in its final state)

Last edited by MadDemiurg; 02/12/16 11:52 PM.
Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596253
03/12/16 02:00 PM
03/12/16 02:00 PM
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When people discuss the unified belief that the system is 'broken'; I think the people who like the armor system are confusing the sentence with the implication that the armor system should be removed. Even the OP simply suggests complementing the system with saving throws and giving options for when armor is gone. Which is actually simply an improvement on the armor system; not an override.

It's not a loud minority. Everyone thinks the new system is too 'all or nothing' and that the armor system has large rooms for improvement. The divide isn't about the system being flawed, but in how to shore up said flaws.

Connecting saving throws with the armor value seems too much to me. The pain reflection defense seems pretty awesome new change, but doesnt really address the CC issue of 'all or nothing'

The new leadership system effecting dodge and such is neat, but unless it effects the entire party, up to and including the 'leader' themselves, we run into the issue of one character in the party feeling pretty weak cause of lack of points to use for his own needs.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596262
03/12/16 05:00 PM
03/12/16 05:00 PM
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gGeo Offline
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One grate attribute helped Original Sin 1 to become popular.

>>> Easy to get started <<<<

The current armor idea is complicated.

There is no need to say anything else.
If designers believe that armor idea needs to be polished rather than removed, then please, polish it to the way of simplicity. Do not try to improve it by adding more sophistication.

Maby merge two the anti-magic shield buffer to one ?
Dont know.

Last edited by gGeo; 03/12/16 05:16 PM.
Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: hairyscotsman] #596265
03/12/16 05:09 PM
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gGeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: hairyscotsman
Or there's a very active minority who don't like it
Well I was one of the loud who said that cut AP points is wrong idea. And it will lead to static combat and artificial rules how to get over it.

What happened ? In latest patch we get 1m free movement, but it is allowed only before attack.

WTF ?

I have time for step and shoot bow, but dont have time for shoot and step ?

That is soooo unfortunate. This system step and attack only - introduced modern series of UFO. The dumb one. The old series - the fun one - you could do actions in any order.

Why Original sin need a stupid rule like that ?
Why Original sin shot himself to a knee by forcing actions in certain order ?

That is why I hate so called democracy. If few says something good it is passed because it is just loud minority.

Last edited by gGeo; 03/12/16 05:13 PM.
Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: gGeo] #596266
03/12/16 05:18 PM
03/12/16 05:18 PM
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error3 Offline
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Originally Posted By: gGeo
Well I was one of the loud who said that cut AP points is wrong idea. And it will lead to static combat and artificial rules how to get over it.

What happened ? In latest patch we get 1m free movement, but it is allowed only before attack.

WTF ?

I have time for step and shoot bow, but dont have time for shoot and step ?

That is soooo unfortunate. This system step and attack only - introduced modern series of UFO. The dumb one. The old series - the fun one - you could do actions in any order.

Why Original sin need a stupid rule like that ?
Why Original sin shot himself to a knee by forcing actions in certain order ?


Completely agree. The free movement should be granted in any order. It doesn't make sense why it's only given before attacks.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596270
03/12/16 06:29 PM
03/12/16 06:29 PM
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Dark_Ansem Offline OP

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I'm glad so many people agree. I like complexity, but this adds no real depth.


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Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596271
03/12/16 07:18 PM
03/12/16 07:18 PM
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Germany
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It's sadly a week free 'The pawn' and the current armor system is in no way complicated. It is probably more too easy.

Re: Old Saving Throw Mechanism [Re: Dark_Ansem] #596347
05/12/16 02:01 AM
05/12/16 02:01 AM
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I like the Phy Armor, Magic Armor system but after sinking in a couple of hours, the whole system feels off and is lacking. Imo the saving throws mechanic should make a return to complement the Armor mechanic. Balancing between the 2 systems is a challenge but i'm pretty confident Larian can work it out.

Last edited by ImariKurumi; 05/12/16 02:02 AM.
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