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Rage needs to be nerfed #600141
16/02/17 12:05 AM
16/02/17 12:05 AM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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This one skill makes a mockery of this game challenge. It's a forced crit multiplier that can be stacked with anything in the game for only 1 AP. With this kind of damage stacking, you can go pure wit, always go first and still 100-0 gib enemies before they even get to act.

It also makes using magic a joke because the strongest magic damage skill in the game atm is "Staff Whack" because Rage is OP and can be used to both buff yourself (have someone do it) and then debuff enemies for a *3 elemental damage (*1.5 crit, * 2.0 negative resist). Even bosses will have a hard time surviving 2 angry mages casting "Staff whack".




This is my char at level 4 in an "All-magic damage" run with poor gears. I don't even need those fancy 20+ damage weapon to already start dealing 100+ AoE a turn and this will easily go up to 200 or 300 per turn when I actually get those 20+ damage weapon like Tide Turner (Zaleskar).

Also, for a "1-turn" buff, if you're the one casting it on yourself, it works on 2 action phase (On the turn you use it on yourself and when it cycles back to you). This works normally and disappear the next turn though if someone else casts it on you.

Outside fixing that probably unintentional "1-turn buff effective 2 turns", Rage itself needs to either

-Be more expensive to use (2AP).

-Limits the amount of guaranteed crits you can get so you can't just abuse it with Warlord and execute people one by one with a basic attack that is gauranteed to crit and wipe their remaining health pool after Crippling-Whirldwind

-Or silence the user while it's active but increase the amount of damage they can do as well to compensate for this nerf as they can now only basic-attack instead of just wiping the whole enemy team with AoE. This will give me a reason to try and cleanse the Rage off my damager with Burn-my-eyes when I want to AoE.

===

Another example of what it's like to gib the whole team beore they even act. The one that got hit for a balance of whooping 219 got raged to have -100 resist.





"Magic"

Last edited by Ellezard; 16/02/17 12:46 AM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600142
16/02/17 02:35 AM
16/02/17 02:35 AM
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snap Offline
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They need to make Rage not usable on enemies.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600143
16/02/17 02:37 AM
16/02/17 02:37 AM
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Kalrakh Offline

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Rage is probably the worst 'nerfed' skill so far. I thought they redid a bit with the debuff part, but perhaps they put it back in? Rage being both a heavy buff and even a heavy debuff is far to much versatility. Perhaps it would be better if it were only a selfcast or at least only a friendlycast.

Warlord is also still to broken and needs a nerf. Giving enemies more armor made it less broken, but not much if play extremely on it.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Kalrakh] #600145
16/02/17 02:56 AM
16/02/17 02:56 AM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: snap
They need to make Rage not usable on enemies.


Tbh, this hurts the enemies more than it hurts the player because enemies love to use Rage as a debuff tool so the mage deals a crap ton of damage, especially those Source spell type.

It's just that the concept is so broken (derp and cheap final multiplier steroid) that it's questionable why it exists. We also still need some kind of Taunt-related spell anyway for a warfare-tank type so Rage should be the candidate that gets reworked into that instead of the current super mega steroid for only 1 AP.

Originally Posted By: Kalrakh
Rage is probably the worst 'nerfed' skill so far. I thought they redid a bit with the debuff part, but perhaps they put it back in? Rage being both a heavy buff and even a heavy debuff is far to much versatility. Perhaps it would be better if it were only a selfcast or at least only a friendlycast.

Warlord is also still to broken and needs a nerf. Giving enemies more armor made it less broken, but not much if play extremely on it.


Even if they remove the 100% resist, it really doesn't help that Rage is still the most broken steroid in the game followed by Elven Racial. Physical party don't really care about the 100% resist anyway and most of them will only use it as buff.

Warlord also needs to have a limit on how much it can generate per turn (like 2->1->0) instead of the current flat 2. Combined with AoE, it doesn't help that a 2 AP crit-pling Strike can generate 4 AP easily from killing 2 targets at once.

Last edited by Ellezard; 16/02/17 02:58 AM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600153
16/02/17 04:15 AM
16/02/17 04:15 AM
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Kalrakh Offline

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The skill is 'Rage' it is meant to be buff and therefore nobody should be able to use it as a debuff, it defies its concept. For debuffing resistances we had 'Oath of desecration' if I recall the name correctly. It was a nice skill and even nicer in the high tier form, where you could try apply it to a group of enemies. But this is the difference, you could 'try to apply' but they could still resist. But you can't resist against 'Rage' because it is treated like a buff even if used a debuff and buff always get applied.

But true, even if made friendlyonly it could be still be to strong. Therefore my suggestion would be make it last longer again, but don't make it guarantee crits. It should support crit-builds, but not make them redundant.


For Warlords my suggestions remain: Either making it only give 1 AP per point or just make it trigger only once per round.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600155
16/02/17 04:28 AM
16/02/17 04:28 AM
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I think the main problem with warlord is actually rage. Warlord itself doesn't seem so broken unless the user is enraged. So nerfing rage would also nerf warlord enough.

Rage is only broken for one specific build which is 2h warlord warfare user. For all the other builds it's just a nice buff.

For rage nerf I'd just make it selfcast only and 2ap cost. Also fix it to only last one turn. 2ap cost would make rage+warlord massacre a bit harder.

Alternatively rage should make it impossible to use skills (and still be a selfcast only).

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600156
16/02/17 04:31 AM
16/02/17 04:31 AM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Kalrakh
The skill is 'Rage' it is meant to be buff and therefore nobody should be able to use it as a debuff, it defies its concept. For debuffing resistances we had 'Oath of desecration' if I recall the name correctly. It was a nice skill and even nicer in the high tier form, where you could try apply it to a group of enemies. But this is the difference, you could 'try to apply' but they could still resist. But you can't resist against 'Rage' because it is treated like a buff even if used a debuff and buff always get applied.

But true, even if made friendlyonly it could be still be to strong. Therefore my suggestion would be make it last longer again, but don't make it guarantee crits. It should support crit-builds, but not make them redundant.


For Warlords my suggestions remain: Either making it only give 1 AP per point or just make it trigger only once per round.



The concept of "rage" usually involves "Loss of control". So far, this is the least ragey type of rage since you still have full control of how the character act and can still use skills like normal.

If you are silenced while enraged and can only basic attack then at least it will be a somewhat balance steroid (no AoE with rage build) and can be used with Warlord without breaking it (since you can no longer wipe the whole team and gain more AP than you lose in one rotation). It will also tone down the power of the rage-build and allow Knife to climb back up as the single-target type of physical damage because atm, it performs no where near Ranger (Rage build with range and even some multi-target thrown in like Ricochet) or warfare.

Last edited by Ellezard; 16/02/17 04:32 AM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600160
16/02/17 06:36 AM
16/02/17 06:36 AM
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Baardvark Offline
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What if you lose complete control of your character and it just attacks the nearest enemies the next turn :P Tone down resist penalty to 50 or even 33% with that.

A more realistic solution would be disabling the use of skills, or at least giving skills a +1 or even +2 AP cost penalty.

Frankly, it'd be more manageable if they just dropped it down to +50% chance to crit, -50 all resists. I like that it can be used as a situational debuff, but -100 resists is just too much.

Whatever the fix, it's almost even more broken than it was before. And Warlord could probably use a limit of two activations per turn.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600166
16/02/17 11:09 AM
16/02/17 11:09 AM
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gGeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellezard
The concept of "rage" usually involves "Loss of control". So far, this is the least ragey type of rage since you still have full control of how the character act and can still use skills like normal.

If you are silenced while enraged and can only basic attack
Like it!

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600167
16/02/17 11:12 AM
16/02/17 11:12 AM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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Even with 50% crit chance, the issue will still be how strong it is for how much it cost that it's still mandatory to use in nearly every damage build. In a way, you can treat the 50% crit chance like a potential 25% final damage steroid that goes up even higher as you have more crit damage. Build like Crossbow will need it even more because they shoot much less often so every shot must count.

I would go with the whole "disable usage of skill" because if we only look at force-crit basic hitting, only 3x shot from a highground ranger really comes close to being super strong with rage.

Leaving it to "AI action" type or rage will make it extremely tedious to go against enemy swashbucklers that just leap into your face with Phoenix dive and cast it on you (they always do) and with how bad the AI is, this further forces everyone to have high-wit build or you can potentially lose the battle from getting enraged by the enemy.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600168
16/02/17 11:20 AM
16/02/17 11:20 AM
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Neonivek Offline

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Would rage be balanced as a 0AP... Source skill?

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Neonivek] #600169
16/02/17 11:55 AM
16/02/17 11:55 AM
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thats hard to judge as the source points are really rare atm


Rogues are the best
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600175
16/02/17 01:46 PM
16/02/17 01:46 PM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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Source skill concept sucks anyway. A player should not feel like they're completely limited from playing the game by default. We don't even have 4 or 5 AP skills yet. If we're gonna balance a skill on how insanely powerful they can be, adjust the AP cost first.

But if they rework source point into something like "Every 4-5 mem point +1 max Source point" and "Max Source point is increased by 1 every X level and when certain quests are completed or items are used and you regenerate all your source point on level up or every 1 every certain period of time" then that might work.

I rather use a skill with 99 turn cooldown than a skill with 1 SP cost.

Last edited by Ellezard; 16/02/17 01:47 PM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600176
16/02/17 02:15 PM
16/02/17 02:15 PM
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@Ellezard: Do you also mean to suggest we ought to be rewarded with source points for doing certain quests? (As long as said quest giver's not a Magister or some fanatic who sides with the Magisters.)

As it is: I see not much incentive for getting Source points.

And why not? You could get quests from ghosts(like that dead kid who was killed by Voidwokens could've followed her mother to the camp).

Last edited by DrunkenTofu; 16/02/17 02:27 PM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: DrunkenTofu] #600181
16/02/17 03:52 PM
16/02/17 03:52 PM
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Ellezard Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: DrunkenTofu
@Ellezard: Do you also mean to suggest we ought to be rewarded with source points for doing certain quests? (As long as said quest giver's not a Magister or some fanatic who sides with the Magisters.)

As it is: I see not much incentive for getting Source points.

And why not? You could get quests from ghosts(like that dead kid who was killed by Voidwokens could've followed her mother to the camp).


I mean as in everyone starts off with 0 Max source point instead of our current 3 Max Source Point from the start, or at least 1 point so we are still sourceror in a way.

And from doing certain quest or using a certain item, your max source point count will go up. When you're at a certain area (Like the blessed fountain in a seeker camp if you weep with Armadia), you can regenerate a certain amount of source point every hour or every level up (like merchant inventory reset).

Let's say you obtained 2 Max SP from absorbing 2 Soul jar, once you use the SP gained from the soul jar, you can go sit in a seeker fountain for awhile and have it regenerate back. However, the fountain can only regenerate once an hour so you will have to use the fountain and go do something for an hour or level up in order to regenerate the other point back.

An example of quest or situation that will also grant you Max Sp is the part where you first obtain Bless.

If we're still sticking with extremely limited usages, source skill must either be super broken to be worth using or they are absolutely worthless and will never be a part of an efficient strat as SP are probably better used for questing or treasure purpose.

Last edited by Ellezard; 16/02/17 03:53 PM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600190
16/02/17 06:46 PM
16/02/17 06:46 PM
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Neonivek Offline

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Ok how about the fix I assumed Rage worked.

Which is that it only works with normal attacks and not skills.

You can even lower the AP cost in that situation... sure it is powerful, but not all powerful.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Neonivek] #600212
17/02/17 12:06 AM
17/02/17 12:06 AM
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gGeo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Neonivek
Ok how about the fix I assumed Rage worked.

Which is that it only works with normal attacks and not skills.

You can even lower the AP cost in that situation... sure it is powerful, but not all powerful.
Rage is a status of mind coused by a stress. External condition.
Mechanics who activates rage on demand is wrong since beginning.
Rage should rather stance, or a long term buff.
When you get hurt then the real rage is activated.

Also, in the state of mind rage the person refuse rest of the world. So, the attack action who activets rage should be nulified. Even spell, even cc.
Its like>
B:I have chopped off your arm.
A: Aaaaaggggr , I'am going to rip off your head.
B: But, ... but .... but you dont have arms.
<head is rolling>

So the game mechanics >>>
1AP state rage (ability skill self, stance mechanics - same as power stance from DOS1)
When you get hit (by anything harmful) you have a chance 20% to get status rage. (attacks which cause several effects are counted as one rage roll chance)
The attack or a spell which activates rage doesnt have any affect at all. e.g. no dmg, no cc applied. Just ignored.
The raged person gets immediate free rage attack. (see bellow)
Status rage lasts 1-2 rounds. random
Basic melee attack is available.
Battering ram skill is available.
Ranged weapons, skills, spells, scrolls, consumables are not available.
On performing basic attack its 10% to get another free rage attack.
Free rage attack - another target in 2 m range is selected randomly and hit. Could be anyone. e.g. even friendly character. If there is no other target available in range, then the original target get the hit.

That is the badass rage :]

Last edited by gGeo; 17/02/17 01:21 AM.
Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600217
17/02/17 12:33 AM
17/02/17 12:33 AM
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Kalrakh Offline

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There probably is a missunderstanding. Rage has several meanings. It does not always mean that you are furious and run amok. Being Enraged normally just means, that you are really angry and therefore hit harder than usual, but you also act more careless and disregard your defence.

But if I think about, it does not do what it's meaning would suggest. Critical hits are normally well aimed hit on vital spots, if you are raging you will hit harder but will hardly aim better. In the concept of rage you would increase your damage and get a chance to break blocks (wich is sadly not possible anyway in D:OS2) so far. Perhaps your hit chance increases but your crit chance would decrease. Also dodge, parry and block (if those would exist) would be reduced, so that the enemies can hit you harder. (Reducing elemental resists made never really sense and guaranteed crits neither.)

It should be kind of like it was in D:OS1: +50% damage, +4% crit, -25% hit chance

But at the current limited battle system is would just turn out to be just different kind of flesh sacfrice and therefore could yield still unhealthy synergy for elves.

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600241
17/02/17 01:19 PM
17/02/17 01:19 PM
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lx07 Offline
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If you are seeing red you will hit harder. To me that means crit.

However you'll be less accurate. I think Rage should give you 100% crit (as it does) but possibly reduce accuracy. I might have a 80% chance to hit but if I do I'll have 100% crit chance.

It should definitely only last one turn not two.

I also think you should be unable to use skills (like Crippling Blow) as you obviously are not going to be in the frame of mind to do something technical. Perhaps Whirlwind would be OK (as comparatively the damage is feeble) and an enraged person could definitely spin around hoping for the best.

Warlord though is fine. Sure you can get multiple +2AP but that usually only happens when everyone else is dead anyway and the fight is over. Look at @Ellezard's pictures - everyone is already dead. Except the dog. No need to limit or complicate it.

@Ellezard, how do you put pictures in the forum like that? I much prefer it to links. In fact how do you take a screenshot at the exact second in the first place?

Re: Rage needs to be nerfed [Re: Ellezard] #600244
17/02/17 01:26 PM
17/02/17 01:26 PM
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The Frog & Hounds
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You can add images using the [img] tags: the URLs must contain a recognised extension such as .jpg or .png, though, so links to e.g. Imgur pages won't show up as images.

And I dunno what Ellezard uses, but I just use Fraps for screenshots, preferably using some form of pause since it's sometimes up to a second out.


J'aime le fromage.
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