Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback CC/Armor/General Balancing

I like to use skills a lot. In DOS1 I had a glass cannon high speed mage with about 24 AP at turn 2 available. But the problem with to much hard cc: As soon as the enemie is unable to act, there is no challenge left.

DOS2 is better because you can't get 24AP, however it still has a problem because whoever has init gets to make all their moves FIRST. That is a worse issue than hard CC IMO. Get what I mean.

For instance, in BG2 and D&D type games even if you have high init you might not get your spell off, if someone is able to hit you before you can cast. That is definitely missing from DOS.

But back to the topic. Please remember this is only the first act. If I am not mistaken last time I fought Alexander it seemed like effects lasted on him only half as much as others 1 turn instead of 2. And he kept regenerating some armor each turn.

Also I have seen items and bosses already that are immune to stun/freeze/charm/knockdown, etc. we will probably run into some bosses with all the immunities at the same time, then you will be wishing you had some hard CC.

Point being I like the level of hard CC at the moment so every fight doesn't take 2 hours. And can see how Larian can/is making Boss fights harder over time.

The problem here is people here don't want randomnesss in the game (they are still chances to dodge or miss btw) so that they can get control over whats hapening during the fight but they want hard cc effects. It doesnt work together.
Either you have random in a game just like a game of bloodbowl or dungeon & dragons or you don't have hard cc where characters are forced to skip their turns.

What Ozz proposed earlier is somewhat of a middle ground....that can be worked on.....maybe it should one CC armor or leave it 2, one for physical and one for magic.....that will absorb the CC until depleted......but also allowing cc damage to go to health as well...... A game of 2 types of damage....

Health would obviously need to be improved....

Another solution would be to reduce de CC effects....a knockdown could require you 2AP to get back up for instance...

It is very easy at this moment to deplete an armor with an assassin in 1 turn....even bosses ...

My mages gets higher Wits, call Haste on the assassin and teleport the boss close to the assassin....on the assassin's turn he has 8 AP if an elf ...all backstab damage... my Warrior can knock him down if the boss isn't dead already....

The solution to reduce CC effects is my favorite, because it will make decision making in combat much more interesting, especially with different reductions for different CC. However, if Larian does not want to do this, an easy fix to our complaints is just increasing the stats on the enemies.

So it seems the issue with 'hard CC' is that you lose one or 2 of your turns. But I think it adds great fun to the game, because you have to decide do I try to make it over to my team mate and remove disability or just keep attacking and let the time limit run out.

And it gives you time to regroup when you can stun/freeze/knockdown some big fighter who is about to squash my whimpy wizard.

I think earlier in the thread someone was complaining about having to memorize anti-disabled type skills, but that is also part of what makes the game fun. Except when the only guy that can cure stun, gets stunned.

Anyway, this thread has lost my interest.

Hard CC adds fun to the game, yes. But how does adding more thematic gameplay options to reduce the effect of CC any less fun, especially when there are already so many sources of CC available?

Yes it could be better, if all the 'hard CC' is still available and Larian just adds some more 'soft CC'. Although I think they have done that somewhat already, ex with 'ice hail' where initially it would always freeze enemies and now your lucky if you chill someone. BTW I don't use 'hail' now, so this didn't make game more fun just turned good skill into useless.

But some folks seem to be saying there should be NO 'hard CC' that they never want any of their team/player to 'lose' a whole turn or 2 ever, and I think that would suck. Only justification for this view is for people who like to SOLO the game, but the game is design for multiple players NOT SOLO.

There was one suggestion where while you are under 'hard CC' that you automatically regen your armor. For instance, you lost all magic armor, then get stunned, while stunned in first turn you regen 20% magic armor, if stunned for 2 turns you get 40% magic armor. This would allow you to not get stun locked.

But as I said, when you play with 2-4 players part of the fun is deciding whether you help a disabled player or keep fighting and let effect dissipate naturally. Also many of these suggested changes to hard CC seem like they would make fights last longer, not necessarily make the game any better.

Of course you won't use soft CC if you have hard CC at hand.

the problem with hard cc is: as soon one side is totally disabled, the battle offers no challenge anymore and in the early levels it is not unlikely, that the enemies disable all player chars.

The reason hard CC is disliked – at least from my point of view – is the sheer blandness of it. It’s not about losing to it. Beating a completely helpless, disabled enemy is hardly as satisfying as beating one that can put up a fight. It’s not fun, in other words – which is just one opinion on it, so no need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist about a different view. If it’s any consolation, I used to think hard CC was great, then I guess I grew as a person and realised, nah, the others who are saying it’s crap are actually right.

It’s not a case of avoiding its use either, since many spells and abilities, perfectly fine as they are, cause hard CC as collateral damage. As with many things in this game, self-balancing is critical to a challenging experience. You can choose to assign the farcically OP teleport skill (shouldn’t the teleport radius be based on aero point investment?) to just one character, for example, or simply not use it. Or you can very easily choose to turn your party into gods by abusing the overly liberal skill distribution system. But you can’t choose to not hard CC an opponent, as it’s tied in to too many spells/skills that are useful for other purposes as well.

It’s clearly a controversial topic. So it’s obviously something better handled by a mod. I’m hoping the API – or what I’d call an API anyway – for this game is a little more fleshed out than the comments on it suggest. I’ve never worked with a perfect codebase. My dev philosophy over the years has become: code needs more UX than any website or app. Nobody knows it’s just beans and toast as opposed to code caviar because it’s actually working. Then you crack open the hood…

As a cheat/hack myself at times of pressure, I know no developer is perfect, and it’s near-impossible anyway to make the perfect API/framework. But I’d like to think if I get involved in modding, I can actually apply useful, custom logic, and also build my own interfaces as you might with JS (and that game interfaces are not the result of some software program that auto-codes the UI via impenetrable, inefficient code-spaghetti).

In other words, it would be great to be able to make the game you imagine, as opposed to having to settle for the ‘safe bet’ that’ll keep the majority happy, and therefore willing to pay.

And the finances are more important: I can dig that.

The hang up about randomness in games is bollocks, though. You have to call a spade a spade. You don’t look at 90% probability in math, and write it off as 100% because it ‘might as well be’. It could be 99.9999% probability, and it’s still bloody well random, because only an absolute wackadoodle would say otherwise.

A random number generator generates random numbers: random. To look at it any other way is basically batshit insane. In fact if that’s your reasoning, you might as well just change your avatar to a bat and let the whole world know *coughs*.

To summarise the most critical points (as I see it) from this thread:

• 1) There are great ideas here for an alternative to hard CC. If it’s too risky, I'd ask that the devs provide the functions etc that modders need to make this a reality
• 2) Attacks to physical armour and magical armour should ALWAYS damage a percentage of real health, as it’s too simplistic as is. Again, if it’s too risky, I'd ask that the devs provide the fucntions etc that modders need to make this a reality, please & thanks

Absolutely not, because that would cripple its use in non-combat. Instead, I think a better nerf for combat teleport would be to make it cost 4-5 AP to use. Maybe even make the Teleport skill require Aero 2.

Yeah, but the game isn't built around needing teleport outside of combat, is it? It's not called Divinity Original Sin 2: Teleport. You have other options to complete quests, so I disagree. To suggest the game requires teleport says there's something severely wrong with the design. And there isn't! Because you don't require teleport to get the job done.

Sure, your proposal for a 4 AP cost would be reasonable in combat. But the default radius is still gaga: it just allows me to screw the AI over too easily. I'm ok with Phoenix dive, wings and the other teleport substitutes - even the nether swap, or whatever it's called, is fine.

I agree with you that Baardvark or someone creating a mod for the soft CC and other stuff might end up being best option to tweak the game. I would try it out.

Although my preference is never making players weaker, rather just making enemies stronger/smarter. And actually think Larian is doing a pretty good job so far.

I have to admit if enemies teleported my team into stun clouds as much as I do to them, I might totally change my view on 'hard CC' issue. Also if all enemies start having all immunities effectively making CC useless, a mod might make the game more fun.

I would just ask whoever makes a mod to try to make it modular rather than all or nothing.

I'm going to delve into modding this year: don't worry about that. This is a much more interesting use of code than anything I do on a day-to-day basis.

I see your point about teleport and the AI. Yeah, sure, if the AI was capable of abusing it like a player can it might even the scales. But I still think it's too cheap. It's basically a skill everyone can equip, and to me you might as well be just opening up the console and hacking the enemy into a less threatening position. I don't feel clever about using it, but I do feel tempted by it's availability when I can't figure out a fairer, more intelligent means of beating the AI.

I don't believe modding CC into something Baardvark proposed would be making you weaker, either. You'd still have the power to cripple an enemy, but you could never completely disable them.

Hopefully the guy is the crack modder he's made out to be, anyway, and we can all play the game we really want at some stage beyond release.

You should have just stopped with "Yeah".

Is there a problem with using Teleport outside of combat? No. Are there secrets which require use of a teleport skill which goes 15 meters? Yes.

Therefore, if any fixes are needed, they are best done without nerfing the out-of-combat functionality.

Huh? You starting something here, bruv? Meet me and say that to my face. Honestly. I’m sick of this thing where your reaction (behind a computer screen) to a perfectly reasonable counterargument is to perform the equivalent of spitting in a person’s face when you can’t form an intelligent response.

Yeah, you sometimes need teleport to get chests/secrets. Yeah, that’s the only time where there’s a requirement outside of combat. Yeah, it’s a (minor) design problem. Yeah, I’d say they need to address that.

But that’s all you’ve got – seriously? And you felt that required:



Looks like there's planet earth and plant stabbey - best stay in your box, pal. You probably do anyway if you've made this far...

Okay, I wasn't at my most polite. Sorry, I apologize. It's been an unpleasant day for me. I do think you are overreacting. It wasn't "spitting in your face".

I did form an intelligent response. It was "if any fixes are needed, they are best done without nerfing the out-of-combat functionality."

All I'm trying to say is that before we decide to rework the maps to accommodate changes to the range of Teleport, first try fixes which apply only to the actual problem part, which is Teleport in combat.

Larian could allow teleport or featherfall to work on allies and items but not enemies. Also that would be consistent with Gawin task.

Being able to teleport enemies was OP in DOS1 at level 1. In DOS2 you get it around level 3 and fortify negates it so it isn't that OP. Also since AI improvement the enemies are constantly running right past my fighters and up to my mage/ranger, WHEN IT ISN'T EVEN THEIR TURN.

Literally on a bunch of fights the enemy moves on their turn, and after their turn is over the just keep moving. Until Larian fixes that bug, Teleport is an essential skill to throw them back. So wouldn't want teleport removed or gimped, but maybe get at higher level and get featherfall early on or on the gloves.

Hopefully people can chill out a little bit. Please remember a lot of this stuff is a matter of personal preference, not about being 'right'.

I think we should just take a step back and look at the bigger picture. This game isn't necessarily made "for us", with our optimal enjoyment in mind. We're some of the most experienced DOS players out there, and what we think are the best solutions (from our point of view) aren't necessarily the most optimal or intuitive for the main playerbase. Maybe Teleport is at a good level right now, and the OPness of it can be mitigated by other means, for example through a harder difficulty setting? Perhaps there are other ways to make it weaker, such as more ways to make oneself immune to certain types of spells (e.g Aero immunity, Earth immunity / resistance..)

I am on the boat with you for this. When I first came to these forums I wanted to share my experiences soloing the game because I was slightly bewildered that it was even possible. The new patch came out and I overreacted a bit to the Polymorph kit especially, from the perspective of someone that felt it was already too easy to solo the game with the skills in existence. I've come to accept (a bit optimistically) that my complaints in regards to some of the skills in this game will probably mean nothing once Tactician comes out or even late-game in Classic mode.

Teleport is strong, but I've always accepted it as a normal mechanic of the game. The only mechanics that make me uncomfortable involve cooldown resets and invisibility, but that's okay, too.

At this point, the only thing I passionately think Larian needs to address is the Sneak mechanic, with the solution lying squarely in teaching the AI how to properly deal with it. If this AI rework is not possible, freezing cooldowns while invis is an unpopular suggestion I made in another thread, but it seems like an easy solution to me. Maybe just freeze them during Sneak, not the actual invis skills. I don't know.

The Armor/CC system as it stands, though theoretically it could be improved via some of the great suggestions we've seen, can probably be balanced through a reworking of the numbers, so I wouldn't be disappointed if they didn't change it radically.

Someone may have already said this but maybe magic damage should effect both the magic armor and health, and the amount of magic armor left could determine the chance of CC.

Let's say you have 100 magic armor. You get hit with a magic damage that does 20 and possibly stun, so you lose 20 magic armor and 20 health and 20% chance to stun.

Physical can stay as it is now which is already good. Magic has been seriously gimped in last patches but this could make it better. I used to use 2 mages but now just one and all she does is support and CC, because damage is so low.

However, definitely have an AIR wand because if enemy is standing in liquid you can shoot at (the liquid not the guy) and electrify it, which I think bypasses enemy's magic armor.