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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Stabbey] #624391
01/10/17 05:49 AM
01/10/17 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Seriously, your argument is garbage. It's a fact that you cannot attach numbers to non-existent phantom posts and poll votes and claim that more people are on your side.

If so then I'll just claim that there are even MORE non-existent posts and votes supporting my side than yours. Prove me wrong.

You can't, which demonstrates why the "silent majority" argument is bad, and I'm not going to indulge it any farther.


You can't seem to accept that if someone isn't talking about something then that means they are more likely to be satisfied with that particular thing. If you can't accept this then this argument doesn't really have anywhere else to go.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: GreatGuardsman] #624394
01/10/17 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: GreatGuardsman
The gravest sin with the Armor System isn't its existence or intent; it's the sheer lack of depth it has and how little interaction there is with other systems.

There are so little ways to invest in armor defenses outside of equipment, it's absolutely suffocating in regards to Divinity OS's fantastic status and terrain systems, and has minimal interactions with skills and spells outside of "destroy all armor" or "get some armor now or over a few turns".
It's quite disappointing, but there's a lot of room to play with things and expand upon the armor system that could make it a fun and engaging mechanic, rather than a barricade trying clumsily to keep D:OS1's CC out of the room until it applies enough burst damage.


That is why i said in another post that ME did this system better, but also it makes CC completely pointless since by the time the enemy stops having armor you may aswell just kill them.


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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624405
01/10/17 07:08 AM
01/10/17 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted By: Zherot
It is truly pathetic that the only game strategy that works now is go full damage and only one type of damage either physical or magical but not both or you will gimp your party and then don't engage in battle normaly but rather cheese the AI somehow to prevent all the enemies gang bang on your party and obliterate you, BECAUSE you can't CC you can't control the battlefield anymore so you are really stupid if you try to engage in a battle without cheesing it, the method that always works is to provoke the battle with 1 character and then run away as far as you can were your other team mates wait for the enemy to come 1 by one or the least amount possible so you can kill them withouth them grouping on you and kick your ass.

THIS IS NOT FUN PERIOD.

There is no "tactics" that is a lie, combat just became a 1 trick pony, there is not thinking anymore you just spam damaging abilities and stack damage to get rid of the 3 health bars ASAP.


While I'm just as annoyed with the armor system as anyone else that is (Thanks Mass Effect 2 Adept hell), the "tactics" from the previous game were just as non existent, despite all of the praise it got for the combat. Thing is, that game gave you more options, not only for character builds, but also what you're functionally allowed to do at the start of any given encounter. But that freedom only really mattered maybe half of the game, if that. Once you had enough skills memorized, it became rote gameplay just like this, and it became trivialized once you unlocked the Master spells. Primarily because of the way initiative worked, and the best setup was to have enough so that your entire team went first.

This game is similar in that way too, except the "Master" spells require source. All that means is, you'll be casting the spells similarly as in the previous game, but with more downtime afterwards simply because of the hoop jumping to get source back (which isn't hard, it's just corpse hunting, waiting on cooldowns or going back to a pool each time is tedious).

From a CC perspective, the game is worse, but it's not really all that difficult. It also favors an all physical damage group over split or all magic, but split works just fine, and the game can be finished with a party of four Mages (Without Incarnates too!). I also greatly enjoyed my first playthrough for the story, side quests and dialogue--all which were mostly great. The game just doesn't have much replayability in its current state regarding combat or builds that actually work well within the current system.

Originally Posted By: Stabbey
They didn't really comment much on it throughout EA. Why would you expect them to comment now? However, while I understand your argument, you're being a bit too aggressive in my view.


I went against my first instinct and built a 2 Physical/2 Magic team, and I'm reaching the point where when one of my mages' turns comes up, I freeze up because I genuinely can't think of anything productive to do, even with a lot of skills on my skillbar sitting there unused.

Level 9/10 enemies have 300+ magic armor (and I've seen it as high as a ridiculous 800 on level 11 enemies), and I don't know what my mages can contribute to a fight other than buffing my physical attackers.


My first playthrough was with a split team, and aside from not being able to CC really at all aside from slow and cripple melee units (which is phenomenal) until armor was down, it wasn't that much of an issue because I focused my casters on the enemy physicals, who typically have much less magical armor, while my Ranger (and occasionally slow ass Warrior) took care of the enemy casters. For evenly split damage bosses there was always the Bone Widow for physical as well as Shield Toss. Another thing is that standard hard CC is mostly trash in this game due to it requiring two actions after armor is stripped. However, Charm only requires one, and it only needs two in Summoning.

Originally Posted By: devdev463
I played through both a double lone wolf mage playthrough as well as a double lone wolf ranger knight playthrough and mages felt fine to me. The ranger knight was obviously easier because all you do with them is auto but my mages were more engaging to play and had little difficulty throughout almost every encounter, save the occasional enemy with fire resistance.


Lone Wolf shouldn't be used as a form of comparison. A party of two Lone Wolf Mages is much stronger than a group of four normal, especially because of the way initiative and turns happen. Lone Wolf is what you use when you want to power game through Tactician without any problems.

Originally Posted By: Stabbey
That poll in the other thread shows an even split between liking it and disliking it. Only 13% said that it doesn't need any changes. 59% want to see some changes, either minor or major, and about 23% say they hate it or liked how D:OS 1 did it. So it doesn't seem accurate to dismiss the idea of changes as appeasing a small minority.

That said, it's unlikely that Larian will do much to change it.


You might find the results to be similar across all purchases, but until you have a poll from thousands, it means very little since it's almost always going to be the vocal minority voting.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 01/10/17 07:30 AM.
Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Sanctuary] #624409
01/10/17 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: Sanctuary
the "tactics" from the previous game were just as non existent


Bullshit.

And if that is the case this game is even worse so were does that put it then?


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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624426
01/10/17 09:28 AM
01/10/17 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted By: Zherot
Originally Posted By: Sanctuary
the "tactics" from the previous game were just as non existent


Bullshit.

And if that is the case this game is even worse so were does that put it then?


It isn't bullshit at all when the so called "tactics" can be broken down into what works the best and everything else. After the initial first few levels where comboing for CC effects mattered, it quickly stopped mattering. Like I said, the previous game gave you more options, but once you found your groove, each fight played out the same.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 01/10/17 09:29 AM.
Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Stabbey] #624460
01/10/17 11:32 AM
01/10/17 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted By: Stabbey
That poll in the other thread shows an even split between liking it and disliking it.

The system can be changed so that everyone is satisfied.
Personally, I also like the idea of ​​protection from control. But this realization is horror and nightmare.
The problem is that the protection is too powerful. It protects from damage, and from control. and even from different types of damage!
If you make one type of defense, combining the mage and fiz, add a chance pass depending on how much protection the target has left, plus remove the defense against damage - there will be an ideal system.

For example, what now:
The enemy has 200 health, 100 defense, 300 magic shields. In total, you get 300 health from physical attacks, and 500 health from magical attacks.
Thus, in a group of bow, warrior and two magicians, only warriors will beat him. Two people from the group can just go drinking tea.
In the system I proposed, there will be:
600 health, and 400 protection against control. Protection from control decreases with damage, but does not protect against damage. Thus, any damage damages both protection and health. So the group from the magic and physical damage will be full.

Further. it turns out that if the goal of 600 health is 100%, then no control will work on it.
If the health falls to 400 (which means 200 protection remains), there will be a 50% chance of passing the controls.
And with a drop in health to 200, the chance of passing control is 100%.

That is, in fact, nothing will change except that groups with different types of damage will be as effective as groups with one type of damage.
While now groups with one type of damage are times more efficient than mixed groups.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624587
01/10/17 03:48 PM
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Now that you post that I really don't see the need or desire to impose both physical and magical armors. We had elemental and phys resists which worked fine. Oh no, said Larian, let's remove physical resistance for this new system of armors, but we're keeping magical resists though, because making new and interesting enchantments on gear is hard I guess.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: HUcast] #624601
01/10/17 04:16 PM
01/10/17 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: HUcast
Now that you post that I really don't see the need or desire to impose both physical and magical armors. We had elemental and phys resists which worked fine. Oh no, said Larian, let's remove physical resistance for this new system of armors, but we're keeping magical resists though, because making new and interesting enchantments on gear is hard I guess.


They have dodge chance though, which protects against all regular attacks and most physical abilities (non-melee AOE abilities get a free pass). Yes OS1 had both dodge and armor, but dodge didn't protect against abilities like it does now.

I don't really LIKE dodge, I'm not a fan of heavy RNG mechanics if we can avoid them so I'd rather they REPLACE dodge with physical-resist, but as it is it does work to mitigate physical damage. In fact, you likely have more dodge chance than magic resists.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Horrorscope] #624623
01/10/17 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Horrorscope
Originally Posted By: aj0413
Two: Expecting modders to be responsible for 'fixing' the game is a terrible practice.


How can a company make this big change now? With such a high like rating ta boot. They can and will be making general adjustments though.

What they could do and I think it would be smart, is come out with a screen with all kind of mod options you can turn on/off, baked into the game, like Xcom mods that were very popular additions. A page of I want this or that added. That way those playing and happy, continue on. Those not so happy, they can check what they want and then try a do over. And the best of all worlds, a person that is happy to try various mods in subsequent plays.


I didn't imply or state that I expect them to make any large changes at this late stage. I highly doubt any of this will be addressed.

From a company standpoint: they sold their product, it sold well, and most people are at least 80-90% satisfied with it.

That last 10-20% is what changes things form a decent/good game to the spectacular thing that I thought game 1 was.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624652
01/10/17 06:13 PM
01/10/17 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Zherot
there is not thinking anymore you just spam damaging abilities and stack damage to get rid of the 3 health bars ASAP.


Or better yet, just 2 health bars, given how the system works.

The way Larian intended for you to play the game is obviously either full physical damage team or full magical damage team.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Sanctuary] #624664
01/10/17 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sanctuary
Originally Posted By: Zherot
Originally Posted By: Sanctuary
the "tactics" from the previous game were just as non existent


Bullshit.

And if that is the case this game is even worse so were does that put it then?


It isn't bullshit at all when the so called "tactics" can be broken down into what works the best and everything else. After the initial first few levels where comboing for CC effects mattered, it quickly stopped mattering. Like I said, the previous game gave you more options, but once you found your groove, each fight played out the same.



Well this game is beyond garbage then because it is WAY worse.

First game was 100% more tactical than this, you actually had to choose who to disable, who to kill first, who to engage, in this game, nah, it is all about how to cheese the AI, never actually engage in battle normally and cheese it and once you have done that then go full damage like mental invalid because it doesn't matter, and you need a 1 trick pony party because you will gimp yourself so fucking hard by having a magical/physical party it is retarded how bad you gimp yourself by doing this and on top of that magic sucks in this game, resitances+ magic armor+insane cooldowns+source magics+limit ap BS. They really wanted to nerf mages to the point of making them useless they are so bad that you always think, "if i cast this AoE i will shoot myself in the foot so bad..." it hurts you more to try to do anything else but buffing with your mages its ridiculous.


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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Sotanaht] #624666
01/10/17 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sotanaht
Originally Posted By: HUcast
Now that you post that I really don't see the need or desire to impose both physical and magical armors. We had elemental and phys resists which worked fine. Oh no, said Larian, let's remove physical resistance for this new system of armors, but we're keeping magical resists though, because making new and interesting enchantments on gear is hard I guess.


They have dodge chance though, which protects against all regular attacks and most physical abilities (non-melee AOE abilities get a free pass). Yes OS1 had both dodge and armor, but dodge didn't protect against abilities like it does now.

I don't really LIKE dodge, I'm not a fan of heavy RNG mechanics if we can avoid them so I'd rather they REPLACE dodge with physical-resist, but as it is it does work to mitigate physical damage. In fact, you likely have more dodge chance than magic resists.


Dodge does NOT mitigate physical resist please stop your BS.


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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624754
01/10/17 10:55 PM
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The first game had dodge as well and also block. Block does not exist anymore, because shields only offer now 'armor'.

Also saying, that only those, who have complains will go into the forums is wrong. It is well known, that most people avoid to have to complain. In a hotel you expect about one from ten unsatisfied guests to ever really mention their complain, most people keep those for themselves, because complaining is to bothersome and time consuming or because they are to hesistant to produce an uproar.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624763
01/10/17 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Zherot
Originally Posted By: Alexstrasza
Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Level 9/10 enemies have 300+ magic armor (and I've seen it as high as a ridiculous 800 on level 11 enemies), and I don't know what my mages can contribute to a fight other than buffing my physical attackers.


Have you beaten the game yet? Later on, it gets insane. Enemies start having thousands upon thousands of armour, at least on Tactician they do. Never played the lower difficulties.

Best ability in-game is Overpower, it's seriously great. Larian really does love their Warfare. :P


Just another proof on how Phsycal attackers are way better than Magical, they overnerfed mages.


Lol, nope!

But, feel free to think whatever you want. smile

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624769
01/10/17 11:24 PM
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Alexstrasza ... ouch. Overpower is brutal. Just looked at it. Low AP cost, 1 Source, and destroy ALL physical armor if you have more than they do? AND Knocked Down for 1 round?

Stripping ALL Physical Armor for 1 Source ... that's powerful. That's an ability that is just ... pardon the play on words, Overpowered no matter how you slice it.

If it was a Pyrokinetic spell that burned away all Magic Armor it'd be just as overpowered.

Even with the limitation of "must have more armor than enemy currently has" it still feels a bit ... broken.

Will I abuse it when I get a toon capable of using it? I'd be stupid not to.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Alexstrasza] #624782
02/10/17 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: Alexstrasza
Originally Posted By: Zherot
Originally Posted By: Alexstrasza
Originally Posted By: Stabbey
Level 9/10 enemies have 300+ magic armor (and I've seen it as high as a ridiculous 800 on level 11 enemies), and I don't know what my mages can contribute to a fight other than buffing my physical attackers.


Have you beaten the game yet? Later on, it gets insane. Enemies start having thousands upon thousands of armour, at least on Tactician they do. Never played the lower difficulties.

Best ability in-game is Overpower, it's seriously great. Larian really does love their Warfare. :P




Just another proof on how Phsycal attackers are way better than Magical, they overnerfed mages.


Lol, nope!

But, feel free to think whatever you want. smile


Yes, Physical > Magical ANY DAY in this game.

And yeah i am free to speak the truth whenever i want thanks.

Last edited by Zherot; 02/10/17 12:22 AM.

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Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Kalrakh] #624787
02/10/17 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kalrakh
The first game had dodge as well and also block. Block does not exist anymore, because shields only offer now 'armor'.

Also saying, that only those, who have complains will go into the forums is wrong. It is well known, that most people avoid to have to complain. In a hotel you expect about one from ten unsatisfied guests to ever really mention their complain, most people keep those for themselves, because complaining is to bothersome and time consuming or because they are to hesistant to produce an uproar.


It's different when it comes to gaming. Real life complaining takes time for things to get sorted and some even take money. Game reviews/feedback let them vent the steam and continue venting it for absolutely no cost.

If anything, the hard part is getting people that enjoy the game to voice their opinions in public. There's a reason why game industry will say that "Majority of the positive reviews are bought" because unless you give them reward for doing it, they won't do it. They are having fun anyway and see no reason to take their time to ask for changes. This is presented in nearly every game marketing seminar I have been to as part of my study.

Last edited by Ellezard; 02/10/17 12:34 AM.
Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Kalrakh] #624809
02/10/17 01:14 AM
02/10/17 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kalrakh
The first game had dodge as well and also block. Block does not exist anymore, because shields only offer now 'armor'.


Actually eventually shields do come with a chance to Block. It's even worked a few times for me.

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Zherot] #624812
02/10/17 01:20 AM
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There is no block % in shields description or in the chars description in generell?

Or are you talking about block now being a modifier and not an innate shield trait?

Re: Can we get a developer comment on Armor System? [Re: Kalrakh] #624814
02/10/17 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: Kalrakh
There is no block % in shields description or in the chars description in generell?

Or are you talking about block now being a modifier and not an innate shield trait?


Some shields have Block Chance on them for lower armor stat.

Last edited by Ellezard; 02/10/17 01:22 AM.
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