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Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build #636925
13/11/17 11:23 AM
13/11/17 11:23 AM
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Posts: 2
Brussels, Belgium
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CaptainDju Offline OP

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CaptainDju  Offline OP

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Hi all!

Warning, wall of text incoming, I've got tons of questions :rolleyes:

So I've started playing with a couple of friends and so far we're having a blast, but even if I'm not a min/maxer I like to understand the mechanics to build my characters properly and I'm a bit stumped on some parts.

I'm playing Sebille as a dual wield dagger scoundrel and so far I'm having a ton of fun jumping all over the place backstabbing everyone. I don't care about über-optimizing her however based on my previous experience in D:OS1 I know some talents/skills can be a bit underwhelming so I'd like your advice on how to keep that build fun after her current level 7.
I'll list out what I've done so far, feel free to comment.

[b][u]Topic 1 : Combat Abilities[/u][/b]
I currently have the following:
Dual Wield 1
Huntsman 1 (from gear)
Polymorph 2
Scoundrel 5

I took 2 in Poly to give me access to Spread Your Wings which adds a lot of mobility to my character, and the 5 points in Scoundrel also help with the movement speed.

This is really where I'm afraid to spread my skill points too thin so here are my current questions:
- Is Dual Wield worth it to increase my raw damage or should I rely more on critical damage from backstabs? How does the Dodge% work as it seems to me 1% per point is a bit weak.
- Hunstman 2 would give access to First Aid and Tactical Retreat which would allow a cheap heal and another teleport/haste skill, is there any point increasing that beyond this point?
- Now that I have the Poly skills I want (Spread Your Wings, Chicken Claw, Chameleon Cloak & Heart of Steel) is there any point in increasing this further? Other than the free Attribute point of course.
- More Scoundrel points mean more mobility plus the Critical Multiplier, is this Crit Multiplier that helpful when backstabbing? I honestly don't know what part of my attacks it impacts.
- I see a lot of people pumping Warfare, but even though I'm doing mostly Physical damage isn't the 5% increase better achieved via Dual Wield which also gives Dodge%?
- I've got a Summon Cat skill which I like thanks to the mobility and swap capabilities of my furry friend, but is there any point in putting some points in Summoning to buff the little one or is it a lost cause?

[b][u]Topic 2 : Attributes[/u][/b]
Strength/Intelligence 10 - I've seen some nice stuff with STR/INT requirements of 11, is it worth it adding 1 point each to ensure I can equip some equipment or will the requirements keep going up as in D:OS1?
Finesse 22 (with +2 from Gear) - It seems like a lot (by D:OS1 standards) but should I continue to regularly pump points in this one?
Constitution 15 (with +4 from gear) - So far I don't have too many survivability issues unless I'm unable to move (Stunned etc.) so I'd leave that alone for the time being
Memory 13 - I guess I'll have to increase that to allow usage of the non-scoundrel skills I'm looking at
Wits 13 - I don't want to have too high an initiative so I can let my teammates do the initial buffs etc. but I'm wondering if the Crit% increase isn't worth a few more points here

[b][u]Topic 3 : Civil Abilities[/u][/b]
I currently have the following:
Persuasion 1 (from gear)
Loremaster 2 (1 from gear, 1 from Ancestral Knowledge)
Sneaking 2
Thievery 2 (with +1 from gear)

I'm the designated sneaky/lockpicky person but I'm unsure how much I should increase these two abilities to remain useful, are there locks which require 10 in thievery for example? Also Sneaking in combat is really AP-expensive so I'm not sure how much I want to invest there.
Persuasion seems to be useful but I've no idea how the requirements will scale. If I understood well you need a mix of Persuasion AND whatever attribute in order to pass a check, but civil ability points are so rare I don't wanna waste them if I'm better off letting someone else do the talking.

[b][u]Topic 4 : Talents[/u][/b]
So far, other than Ancesral Knowledge and Corpse Eater I've taken The Pawn (again, mobility) and Guerrilla.
The latter is a disappointment as it's really hard to effectively sneak during combat.
I don't believe the Chameleon Cloak count as sneaking to trigger the Guerrilla bonus, right? Any chance I can respec that?
At level 8 I'll get to choose another talent and I'm at a loss, here are the ones I'm hesitating with:

Opportunist - This would be my prime candidate with one caveat: can the resulting attack of opportunity backstab? If so the combo of this and Rupture Tendon would be fun as heck
All Skilled Up / Mnemonic - I guess more skill or attribute points is always good, right? Should I start with that or take it when I'm out of more useful talents?
Parry Master - I'm always dual wielding so I guess 10% extra dodge is good, but again I don't know how the dodge mechanic works? Would it make that big a difference?
Leech - I'm often in blood pools, and I create one myself with Flesh Sacrifice but how useful is it in the long run? Does it scale somehow and if so based on what? If not 5% seems a bit on the low side.
Duck Duck Goose - Being mobility-based and a bit weak on the defense/HP side I guess this can't hurt, can it? Would be one more reason to take at least 1 point in Hunstman

Last edited by CaptainDju; 13/11/17 11:24 AM.
Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #636929
13/11/17 12:55 PM
13/11/17 12:55 PM
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Victor_Creed Offline
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I can't answer all your questions but most importantly:
Warfare is much better than Dual Wield, since it is multiplicative damage (unless that got fixed recently).
Also going Warfare will give you the luxury to use physical skills that are not reliant on your weapon scaling, there is quite a few of them.
Dodge is not that good, since it only works against weapon based attacks and not against most skills.
All skilled up can be situationally good since you can respec in Act 2, but it's not something you want in your end build.
Leech is not very strong and generally vit heals in this game are not too interesting because of armor.

A must have talent is Executioner, the 2 AP on kill per turn are really strong especially together with Adrenaline and Flesh Sac.

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #636974
13/11/17 09:28 PM
13/11/17 09:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 23
Bolivia
LokiTheAnsuz Offline
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LokiTheAnsuz  Offline
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Victor is right about Warfare, but I'm under the impression Warfare skills also scale with the weapon (at least the important ones) and if your weapon is a dagger, the skills will receive a bonus from Finesse...

My rogue Sebille uses 2 points in Poly, 10 in Warfare (since it's multiplicative while everything else is additive), some in Necro (Bone Cage, Shackles) and the rest in Scoundrel... Warfare will add the most damage, Necro and Poly provide some utility and Scoundrel adds some damage too. I spent 1 point in Dual Weilding since 3% dodge is nice. I'd recommend you get rid of Huntsman when you can respec. When it comes to skills, Warfare gives you some interesting things, like additional mobility with Phoenix Dive; it also gives Whirlwind (a much needed AOE since Fan of Knives is awful) and A LOT of knockdowns!

Something to note about Scoundrel is that the crit damage it modifies is the final damage, not the chance. Backstabs are always critical hits (so investing in Wits only benefits your initiative) but Scoundrel is kind of important because it increases the amount of damage crits do. For example, at the beggining with 0 Scoundrel, crit hits will deal 150% normal damage iirc, and each point of Scoundrel will add 5% to that final modifier, so all your crit hits (backstabs included) can end up dealing 200% normal damage and perhaps even more, I'm not sure...

About attributes, there's virtually no reason whatsoever for you to invest points in Strenght/Intelligence. You will sometimes find Strenght/Intelligence gear that have nice roguelike stats, but that's the exception and not the rule. The thing about equipment is that each of the types behave differently. Strenght gear will give you high physical armor and low magic armor, Intelligence gear will give you high magic armor and low physical armor, Finesse gear will give you pieces with balance on both physical and magical (values being always lower than the highest of other armors, but higher than their lowest).

While dual weilding, you can gamble with Dodge (using Parry Master and an ally with high Leadership) and focus on your magic armor using Intelligence gear (since Dodge only protects you against physical attacks). To that end, you won't need much Intelligence to equip the parts; the best equipment requires just 14 Intelligence iirc. But there are 2 problems with that approach: 1) Those 4 points in Intelligence means your Finesse is 4 points lower, so a little bit less of damage. 2) Intelligence gear with Finesse/Roguish bonuses are rare, rare like a sword with "+ 1 Two Handed", so keeping your gear appropiate for your level might be quite a challenge.

On the topic of civil abilities, if you are the sneaky thief surely your party has also a "talker/trader" character (a person who handles the convincing of people, buying and selling). Persuasion works in dialogue checks and to get better prices at merchants (so it goes pretty well with Bartering)... So depending on how your party distributes responsibilities, you taking persuasion might not be the best idea (unless you get caught a lot after stealing). But if you want to take it, take it laugh Civil abilities are fun!

With talents, I really don't know if Guerrilla works with invisibility, but even if it did, I'd still not use it. Mainly because sneaking in combat is not viable as you correctly pointed out and invisibility will work once every several turns (Chameleon Cloak has a long cooldown, invisibility potions are rare and expensive in my experience and you can't really craft them often). But perhaps you can make Guerrilla work! Idk, perhaps devoting your money in buying the ingredients to craft invisibility potions (if invisibility works with Guerrilla).

I find The Pawn much more useful than Executioner when you're not playing with Lone Wolf. Positioning for free is yuuuge when you only have 4 AP to work with. I'd also use Parry Master and Opportunist (yes, when you're behind the target, the attack of opportunity is a backstab!). The rest of the talents are completely up to you. Mnemonic can save you some points in memory (and having more skills is good as long as you don't want an entire hotbar as a rogue lol, I just use 15 memory and I think that's too much for a Warfare/Scoundrel rogue), All Skilled Up and Bigger and Better also have their uses (moar damage!), but you can work with anything except Savage Sortilege, Elemental Affinity, Hothead and the likes since you don't need them.

Finally, don't worry if you regret something on your build! Later in the game you can respec your character at will!!

Last edited by LokiTheAnsuz; 13/11/17 09:34 PM.

Loki makes the world more interesting but less safe... He is the father of monsters, the author of woes, the sly god...
Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #636979
14/11/17 12:04 AM
14/11/17 12:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
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JosieJ Offline
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Just a couple of additions to the advice you've already received:

1. As advised above, I'd put 10 points into Warfare for the damage increase, as well as for Crippling Blow, Battle Stomp, and Phoenix Dive.

2. I'd put 2 points into Aerotheurge for Teleportation and Uncanny Evasion, two extremely useful skills for all builds. 1 point into Pyrokinetic for Haste and Peace of Mind wouldn't go amiss, either, although this is easy enough to obtain from gear.

3. You might want to put 1 more point into Polymorph for Skin Graft, which resets all your cooldowns once per battle--very handy! You've got plenty of time to add it later, though, as the skill isn't available until Act 2.

4. As you've already seen, The Pawn is an excellent talent for a rogue; really helps getting you to backstab position. Executioner is also great, but you can't have it and The Pawn at the same time; if you find yourself not needing the free movement, especially later in the game, I'd switch them. Opportunist is a must-have, I'd say. All Skilled Up/Bigger and Better/Mnemonic are good for stat boosts in the beginning, but safe to respec out of them later in the game. Since you're putting so many points in Warfare, Picture of Health wouldn't be bad, either. Someone in the party should also have Pet Pal, but I'm guessing that's already the case with your party!

5. Don't spread yourself too thin with your Civil abilities; you don't get that many points. Persuade/Barter should generally go on the character that does most of the talking. Spread the other abilities out among the rest of your party.

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637034
14/11/17 07:10 AM
14/11/17 07:10 AM
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hairyscotsman Offline
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You've wasted points putting scoundrel above 3 at that point in your build. Put them in Warfare or Dual Wield once you can respec
Parry is good if you're going for a parry build. If you're doing that keep putting more points in dual wield and only get just enough warfare for skills.

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637076
14/11/17 04:28 PM
14/11/17 04:28 PM
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Victor_Creed Offline
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Putting points into Scoundrel is not that bad because of crit multiplier.
I'm inclined to think Dual Wield is the least impactful out of the three skills.

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637139
15/11/17 02:39 PM
15/11/17 02:39 PM
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omegazen Offline
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Here's my Sebille build I used for two playthroughs. Absolutely dominated on Tactician eventually in mid-late game.

Talents: Don't get executioner on Rogue. That is best fit on Ranger who can actually hit multiple enemies easily on his turn. The best are Opportunist, Pawn, Parry Master(later in the game, if you decided on Dual wielding), possibly Glass cannon but I didn't really need it on her because of Flesh sac+haste and I'd rather her not get CC'd. The rest are up to you(Mneumonic, bigger and better, All skilled up are best)

If you're going to go Warfare and phoenix dive like ppl say that's fine. But you can afford to get a point into Huntsman to get Tactical retreat, which is better. It gives you haste for one turn which is great, and you don't have to burn yourself on fire for no reason. I used that on all my characters.

Pyro: Get Peace of mind. Must have on pretty much any character.

Aero: Teleportation is great. That's all you need, and even that you could do without honestly, if other characters have it. You really only need this if you plan on doing some multi-enemy backstab crippling blow combo.

Scoundrel: Up to lvl 5 for Mortal Strike or the 5-backstab source skill(I could one shot so many guys with this it was so fun, not the greatest but fun). Gives you crit multiplier(you should only be backstabbing anyway, so it's never wasted.). Adrenaline is a must have. Pretty much all the skills here are necessary or good to play with, except some Source skills and things like Chloroform(since you'll be going after low physical ppl anyway). Drop Throwing Knife later.

Warfare: Definitely max. Only skills I used though were Stomp, crippling blow, and whirlwind(never used them all together). I played around with them and they had their uses. But if you're not pairing Sebille with Death wish(great skill, use in pre-fight setup to power up your preferred damage for that fight), drop Whirlwind. It's not as strong as other skills you can use, since you'll be mostly focusing 1 target.

Dual wielding: I would max it. You get the dmg and extra dodge. Since Sebille is up close and personal it's pretty sweet later when you get like 40% dodge chance. Can dodge anything physical.

Polymorph: Chicken and Cloak, and maybe whatever else you might like. Level up alongside warfare, so you get points for Finesse too. Skills are going to scale off finesse.


Ability points: Only points into Finesse and Wits, Finesse priority. Crit chance is useless since you always crit on backstab, and you should always backstab. That said, Wits is great and you definitely could do with high initiative. You guys should try buffing before a fight so you don't have to waste turns doing that or worrying about Rogue going first and not being buffed. Memory when you need it, but you'll probably just want mneumonic Talent to help with that. Remember you get a free memory slot every other level.

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637353
17/11/17 02:33 PM
17/11/17 02:33 PM
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Brussels, Belgium
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CaptainDju Offline OP

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CaptainDju  Offline OP

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Ok, it seems I'm no longer locked out of this thread so I'll finally reply :-)

First of all thanks a lot for your great feedback! The key thing I'll take away is that not only I'll be able to respec soon (we're nearing the end of Act I) but I'll be able to respec more than once, so that takes a bit of pressure off :-)

Based on what I've read I think I'll go down this route:

Keep pumping Finesse as it's my primary raw damage source
Keep Constitution to a healthy level, not too high but maybe not at 10
Forget about Strength and Intelligence
Manage my Memory as needed, maybe reducing it via respec when I've got more level-based free slots (I didn't know I got one for every two level, good to know)
Keep Wits to a healthy level in order to avoid having the lowest initiative but not rely on it for critical chance (not damage, my misunderstanding) since backstabs always do critical

In terms of talents I'll ditch Guerrilla, keep the Pawn and Opportunist and maybe add Parry Master and the attribute/skill boosting talents later on

For the combat skills this is where I was afraid to go too much jack-of-all-trade but apparently picking one point here and there just for that one skill is nothing to be afraid of.
I think I'll try something like that:

Warfare I'll start investing points as I now understand the advantage, if I understand correctly it increases my raw damage, which in turns is again multiplied by the critical hits, right? I'll see what skills go well with my build based on available memory slots
Dual Wield is a mixed bag, either I'll remove it (can I still dual wield with it set to 0? I guess so) or pump a few points if I wanna try dodging
Polymorph I'm keeping to 3 (yeah, I added a point since my last post) as I'm really enjoying the skills and I'd like to try Skin Graft
Scoundrel I'll try to keep it at 5 for the mobility and the later talents, maybe reduce it later to 3 if the high-level skills aren't to my liking.
Aerotheurge I'm not sure I need, I use the teleportation gloves even though they have weak armor, not sure how long I'll be able to do that. Also I already have a teleport from scoundrel. But Uncanny Evasion seems nice and can help other players so...
Pyro I'm not sure either, I acquired the skill from eating someone's head (Yep, even writing it feels weird) so I guess it's easy enough to try it out, but I have done fine so far via scrolls
Huntsman also seems to be deemed useful by some and useless by others. I'll give the Tactical Retreat a go and I somehow have the first aid skill acquired so why not.

I guess in summary I should choose either Aero OR Hunstman for the extra mobility but not both.

Last but not least the civil abilities, I'll stick to sneaking and thievery mostly then i'll see what my gear can provide. We've already got a loremaster and a barterer, telekinesis is a bit useless with the teleportation capabilities I have, and Lucky Charm I'm not sure how useful it is in the long run.

That's it, thanks again!

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637362
17/11/17 04:27 PM
17/11/17 04:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
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Bolivia
LokiTheAnsuz Offline
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LokiTheAnsuz  Offline
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Bolivia
Happy to help!! I like the route you're taking laugh You'll be a great rogue in no time!


Loki makes the world more interesting but less safe... He is the father of monsters, the author of woes, the sly god...
Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637367
17/11/17 06:19 PM
17/11/17 06:19 PM
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lx07 Offline
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I find duck duck goose talent (requires huntsman 1 for some reason) almost essential if you move by walking to avoid attack of opportunity.

For civil I'd go persuasion or more thievery rather than sneaking. Sneaking is pointless (I found anyway).

Re: Need a bit of help with my Scoundrel build [Re: CaptainDju] #637434
18/11/17 10:59 PM
18/11/17 10:59 PM
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Rhaevyn Offline
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Originally Posted By: CaptainDju
Ok...telekinesis is a bit useless with the teleportation capabilities I have, and Lucky Charm I'm not sure how useful it is in the long run.


I always have one party member with max or near max telekinesis. It's a lifesaver literally in parts of maps as they can safely move those annoying poison/lightning, etc. little emitters far from the party, or yank something off a wall that says it's too far away. It's not the same thing as teleportation in this respect.

Lucky charm is awesome, at least in my saves, as it has brought many nice items for my loremaster to identify from all the crates and barrels and chests. Make sure you're always using your Alt (or whatever key you have bound) to highlight everything around you as you travel the maps.


I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy

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