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Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! #652816
10/06/19 07:59 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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With an recent comment saying that "misses (that worked on bg1/2/iwd1/2/nwn1/2 and is present even on action games like D1/D2) doesn't work on a video game", i was wondering if Larien would change the PnP rules

“The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,” Vincke said. “We had to have solutions for that.” Source https://www.tatech.org/baldurs-gate...es-place-after-dds-descent-into-avernus/

After reading it, i just wonder. Did he played the first two BG games? Did he played even mainstream action games such as Diablo 1/2? Morrowind? Daggerfall? Did he played NWN1/2? Or even old school games like Might & Magic VI-VIII? Missing works on ALL OF this mentioned games Missing is an important part and an small change on misses will lead to bigger and bigger changes. For example, if an longbow will almost always hit, then longbows can't have the same historical accurate range that they have on D&D and the range will be probably nerfed to nerf-like range aka 13m, Even an basic Fireball, not subjected to evasion/improved evasion will be awful. And how spells like Finger of Death will work?

To remove misses and saves, you need to re write completely the game And Sword Coast Legends tried it. I honestly don't like DOS2 combat where no armor deflects your blows, nobody evades/blocks, but you need to impale the enemy 20 times with an spear to kill him and the combat fells much more like puzzle.

I wanna do epic stuff like assume an dragon form and raise an undead/elemental army, like i can do on Pathfinder Kingmaker

[Linked Image]

Wanna spells like Finger of Death to fell like i an the master of life and death itself and face enemies that use this powerful spells against myself without cooldowns or other similar mechanics. But some people like DOS2 combat, so i suggest. Wanna change the rules? Do it, but make OPTIONAL. Just like most D&D based games, has an difficulty called "core rules"

Or at least allow modding and let the player make the game into more pnp-like. NWN2 for eg, i hated when played as an warlock for the first time. When installed an mod that fixes warlock to be more pnp like, loved the game. Exactly because my tentacles grapples the enemy, i can cast multiple the dead walk and control up to caster level * 2 HD worth of undead, etc.

Last edited by vometia; 11/06/19 07:13 AM. Reason: formatting
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #652821
10/06/19 06:03 PM
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Adul Offline
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That particular comment in that article is certainly the source of a lot of doubt building towards BG3 both from fans of the previous BG games, and from D&D fans in general. I think it would be in Larian's best interest to address these concerns as soon as possible in order to stop the spreading of the negativity that's caused by that comment.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #652890
12/06/19 08:35 PM
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I'm not sure he's talking about actual rules change. In NWN1 this was handled via the "dance of death" and NWN2 you just sort of stood there, but both had miss animations

BG1/2 I was so focused on the entire party I never even noticed if any particular attack hit or missed.

anyway, "handle it" doesn't necessarily mean rule change, or it could be such a non-op change (e.g. every attack does at least 1 damage or something like that)

EDIT: Oh, but I support the premise of making things optional, but not just rule alterations, make everything OPTIONAL (i.e. give us a toolset :))

Last edited by loudent; 12/06/19 08:36 PM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Adul] #652937
14/06/19 11:51 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Adul
That particular comment in that article is certainly the source of a lot of doubt building towards BG3 both from fans of the previous BG games, and from D&D fans in general. I think it would be in Larian's best interest to address these concerns as soon as possible in order to stop the spreading of the negativity that's caused by that comment.


You are right,

but for Larien, even leveling is too slow Dungeons and Dragons’ leveling system is too slow for Baldur’s Gate 3
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/leveling-system

Sounds like "i love soccer, wanna make an soccer game, but the rules that worked on fifa, pes and etc doesn't work, so i will re write the soccer rules"


I love leveling on D&D. On my solo max difficulty Dragon Disciple run on Icewind Dale EE, i goes from running from Goblins that succeed on their saving trows against charm to stopping time, conjuring an Efreet army and etc. On Might & Magic VIII, goes from an weak necromancer that barely can conjure two toxic clouds to an badass lich that can reanimate dragons, teleport, become invisible, or nuke cities out of existence. That is amazing.


Last edited by SorcererVictor; 14/06/19 11:53 AM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653086
18/06/19 12:35 PM
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And i wonder.
Have you played DnD 5E? Thats the system were getting, and if we get a game that is only limited to the rules of that system, well be getting a very very boring video game.
As for misses. OS2 had misses. Every RTWP game had misses, every Turn based RPG game has misses.
To me, this is an indication that BG3 will be an action RPG in terms of combat.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653466
01/07/19 04:16 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Sordak
And i wonder.
Have you played DnD 5E? Thats the system were getting, and if we get a game that is only limited to the rules of that system, well be getting a very very boring video game.
As for misses. OS2 had misses. Every RTWP game had misses, every Turn based RPG game has misses.
To me, this is an indication that BG3 will be an action RPG in terms of combat.


5e sounds good but not as 3.5e or pathfinder. Anyway, no cRPG got released on 5e. SCL tried to "adapt to video games" and failed miserably.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653467
01/07/19 04:55 AM
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No misses means I can go in with a level one character and punch a Red Dragon. I may not do much damage but hey, I didn't miss. (silly) Misses are as much part of D&D as their being Dungeons and Dragons. No misses has to be an optional rule. There should be misses in the default setting of the game.

Having no misses sounds like a cheat.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Adul] #653468
01/07/19 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Adul
That particular comment in that article is certainly the source of a lot of doubt building towards BG3 both from fans of the previous BG games, and from D&D fans in general. I think it would be in Larian's best interest to address these concerns as soon as possible in order to stop the spreading of the negativity that's caused by that comment.

I agree. It feels like Larian intentionally made a lot of vague statements about the game (combat type, the comment about people being surprised about the camera, the "missing isn't fun" mantra and so on) in order to generate hype and discussion, yet it feels like the discussion on most secondary websites is dying out or already has ceased entirely due to the absence of news.

When Larian officially announced BG3 a few days before the E3 expo last month I thought they'd use the chance to release more info about the game while the hype was fresh, but instead they only repeated what they'd already said in numerous interviews for various gaming sites.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653473
01/07/19 06:20 PM
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you people act as if that means theres no misses and nothing to make up for it.
obviously it means that well be getting a different system.
Its obviously not going to be DnD 5e but with guaranteed hits.
theyll have AC do something.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653478
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I don't want to jump to conclusions too soon, but considering that Original Sin 2's armour system was implemented to eliminate RNG (mostly in the shape of 'bad' dice rolls) from influencing combat it's not as if the disapproval of attacks and spells missing is something brand new for Larian.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653483
01/07/19 07:45 PM
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well no, the armor system wasnt realy to take away RNG, well it was partly to take away RNG, but i think the reason was mostly to change the focus of the game away from alpha striking with CC which was very easy to do in OS1, mostly winning the fight before it even began.
Also to move the combat away from CC spam and give direct damage more of an edge.
That way, combat in OS2 tends to open with a lot of damage beeing dealt before CC takes effect.

getting rid of RNG is also an effect, one i personally like since it turns CC into something you can plan on rather than somehting you can hope on, making your descisions more logical.
but with DnD, it doesnt realy work that way, at least with 5E, especialy fighters tend to be kind of a slot machine of "roll to do stuff".

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653497
02/07/19 06:36 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Bukke
I don't want to jump to conclusions too soon, but considering that Original Sin 2's armour system was implemented to eliminate RNG (mostly in the shape of 'bad' dice rolls) from influencing combat it's not as if the disapproval of attacks and spells missing is something brand new for Larian.


Prefer not RNG is one thing.

Say that doesn't work when clearly worked on bg1/2, iwd1/2, nwn1/2, and tons of non D&D games like kotor 1/2, diablo 1/2, is completely different. I like because it makes the combat tense. You can an suffer an sneak attack from an poisoned arrow at very far away on D&D, and it would be deadly, mainly at low levels or for low hit dice classes... Mindflayers if they need to take out an armor to then try to "enslave" your party members will not be an terrifying enemy. Same for Beholders. The fear of being insta disintegrated is what makes then terrifying enemies.

Originally Posted by Sordak
well no, the armor system wasnt realy to take away RNG, well it was partly to take away RNG, but i think the reason was mostly to change the focus of the game away from alpha striking with CC which was very easy to do in OS1, mostly winning the fight before it even began.
Also to move the combat away from CC spam and give direct damage more of an edge.(...)


The "randomness" is exactly what makes the CC spam not viable on D&D. Pick an "web" spell for eg, is very lickely to hold some creatures and very unlikely to hold another. This ignoring complete immunity. Finger of Death works on living, but is useless against enemies with high fortitude saves or immune to insta death effects on 3.5e, flesh to stone is more adequated against undead for eg but against an dragon with high fortitude, will likely not work, but here is my point. Only because an game did CC and saves bad, doesn't means that all games did it badly.

I din't played D:OS1 but become bored with D:OS2 in 6 hours. One game that implemented the rules relative faithful was Pathfinder Kingmaker. And honestly, there are few things that P:K could improve. For example, fly and climb.

Modern ""rpg's"" offers way less verticality than even DOS era cRPG's. You can fly and climb on Daggerfall and dungeons has many "floors" linked in a 3D way. Nowadays with physics engine, with 3D photorealistic graphics, game devs instead of making archery more realistic or fun, they limit your archery range to 13m(D:OS2 i an looking to you), adds a lot of mechanics that makes no sense like cooldowns, instead of explore the bigger memory to allow creations of undead armies,they limit to one summon, instead of bouncing in armor animation, they say that missing doesnt work(Despite it worked on tons of games), instead of allowing an 'caster' do cool stuff like animate objects in the scenario, they offer an magic system with way less effects than dos rpg's, instead of destructive involvement with consequences from destroying it, they hand hold the player into boring lever puzzles... The first thing that M&M devs did after they moved from grid based to doom "2.5D" 3D based was add fly and verticality. Something that modern game devs hate. Think on the 90s games with modern technology, an dragon bombargin your party with powerful spells and flying...

Here is two solo sorcerers on BG2:EE using two completely different strategies, one using summons + shapeshift and another lowering enemy MR and saves and using finger of death(ohk on failed save)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIAV6NS6Vw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UIafQ2DUJ8

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 02/07/19 06:39 AM. Reason: grammar
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653506
02/07/19 01:38 PM
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CC spam is not viable in DnD?
my dude im pretty much a forever DM and CC is absolute King in any non full damage specialized party.
Sleep, web, or in 4E which i prefer movement hindering effects are amazing.

The thing in DnD is that if you use damage or CC to beat an encounter, there are still even more OP ways of doing them, that usually involve magic.
When we are talking early game, having CC is basically mandatory. Especialy in earlier editions where there is no AoO, im thinking of Icewind Dale 1 here. You keep getting overwhelmed by the enemy simply having higher numbers than you, you cant realy keep all their dudes busy and in early levels your casters will die very quickly, so entangling the lot of em is the easiest way to manage an encounter.

You dont need to entangle ALL your enemies, your fighter and ranger can deal with those enemies not entangled, but its much more manageable than having to deal with all of them while your paper mache wizard is running for his life in a crowded dungeon.

I dont know what to tell you about becoming bored of OS2 in 6 hours.
Ok you only like RTWP games that are faithfull to ... some pnp system. Thats a very particular taste, but you cant argue with taste.

Taste however is also not actually an argument.
And saying DnD does RNGed CC better than Original Sin quite frankly isnt true, it does it basically the same.

And the rest you said, idk you seem to devolve into rambling.
i dont remember any RPG that did destructible enviroments. DAI tried but it was a gimmick and didnt work well.
what you said about "Limiting to cast" sounds like Vancian casting, ive explained in numerous threads why i think vancian magic is a bad system for a video game (and for DnD)
I dont know what lever puzzles you talk about, i only remember one lever puzzle in OS2 and that was in the Path of Blood, considering you got bored 6 hours in, im seriously doubting you got that far since thats at the very end of act 3, youd have to be speedrunning hard to reach that point in 6 hours.

Im also not quite sure what you are trying to prove with those two videos.
Are you implying that in non RNG based systems there is only one way to beat an encounter? Not to mention that OS2 has RNG in it, just less in terms of CC.
it seems like you are just trying to show off the system you want. Which is ok, i just dont think its impressive, i know that system well.

THAT ALL ASIDE:
Im gonna repeat myself here but im gonna do it anyway:

They probably WONT just have a system you are used to (RTWP / OS style Turn based) and just "Remove" the "Missing" part of it.
I think they have a compleltey different combat system that works different to both of those types of games in which misisng doesnt make sense.
Simmilar to how missing was removed in Oblivion from Morrowind (which was very much a dice roll combat game but only from a first person perspective, while Oblivion was an action based combat system)

Last edited by Sordak; 02/07/19 01:39 PM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653510
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Originally Posted by Sordak

Sleep, web, or in 4E which i prefer movement hindering effects are amazing.


4e is EXACTLY why we have pathfinder and the worst edition in therms of sales. Exactly because they tried to be pnp-generic-mmos instead of pnp-living breathing worlds. Charm, is an amazing starting spell, but can only be used 4 times per rest on a wizard. Resting system is an problem on BG but P:K fized it by making resting risky, require time and resources in a world where camping supplies are expensive, heavy and the time matters.

Originally Posted by Sordak

I dont know what to tell you about becoming bored of OS2 in 6 hours.


Too much modern mechanics that i hate. MMO style limited range, where archers can't hit an elephant at 14m, cooldowns, gear being much more important on how your build your charcter and not working like eqquipment, etc

Originally Posted by Sordak

i dont remember any RPG that did destructible enviroments. DAI tried but it was a gimmick and didnt work well.
what you said about "Limiting to cast" sounds like Vancian casting, ive explained in numerous threads why i think vancian magic is a bad system for a video game (and for DnD)


No, is not. I saw a lot of games using spell slots. Dark Souls for eg and Dark Souls had one of the best combat systems.

Spell slots on the way that DkS 2 presented leads to some "decisions", for example, Forbidden Sun, the strongest pyromancy that literally creates an mini sun and trows at the enemy, Insane deadly and deals AOE damage. What is the problem? Is behind an long quest and takes 3 attenument slots ( https://darksouls2.wiki.fextralife.com/Forbidden+Sun ) So the 'charname' needs to make an choice. What is best? Be able to throw 3 forbidden suns with 43 ATN and Hexer hood or be able to throw 20+ fire orbs? And there are no easy solution. In some situations, one spell will excel and on another, another spell will be the best option.

If was on D3 for Ex, pyromancer will need an big and sharp axe to throw the mini sun and the mini sun will scale with 100.000% of base damage and have 2 minute cooldown.

If was on D:OS will be an 13m ranged attack that can be used once per 10 turns and that is it. Nothing special, no decision, no player agency.


Originally Posted by Sordak

Ok you only like RTWP games that are faithfull to ... some pnp system. Thats a very particular taste, but you cant argue with taste.



I like turn based games too. As longs they don't have ultra slow annimations like Wizardry 8 or D:OS or modern mechanics that makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Sordak

i dont remember any RPG that did destructible enviroments. DAI tried but it was a gimmick and didnt work well.


I said that COULD have it with modern technology; unfortunately even games like pahtfinder kingmaker din't implemented it.

Originally Posted by Sordak

Simmilar to how missing was removed in Oblivion from Morrowind (which was very much a dice roll combat game but only from a first person perspective, while Oblivion was an action based combat system)



And exactly by removing missing, they needed to remove a lot of other things. For eg, how Divine intervention can work if it have no risk of failure????

If you lv 1 charname with an dagger can hit an master knight with plate armor and tower shield, the guy in question ends up becoming an "bullet spongee"

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 02/07/19 02:58 PM.
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653512
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Every time, man, i wonder if someone trains you people to spout the same regurgitated and especialy unfounded opinions on 4e.
So im not even gonna get into it, you are only depriving yourself of an edition that actually made stuff different. Have fun.

Vancian casting only works in Pathfinder because its a game with a worldmap and random encounters, as you pointed out.
It didnt work well in Baldurs gate, it didnt work in neverwinter nights. And honestly, it doesnt work in DnD. All it does is forcing more rests. AS a DM the best thing you can do to make Vancian casting work is to create time pressure, make sure the party has to complete its objectives in a short timeframe.
but that means it works only in that time constraiend setting.
Time constraiend campaigns are hard to do without "railroading", but thats a seperate issue alltogether.

Too many modern mechanics. Ok having ranges? I mean besides Bows, that same thing applies to DnD. And in DnD and most infinity engine games, your ranger will be limited simply because of the layout of the battlefield, such as them beeing dungeons.
Cooldowns is a matter of opinion, as far as im concerned, they work better than vancian casting. Thats the reason modern games use cooldowns, because as a system its more consistent and more aplicable to a variety of playstyles.
As i said in my previous post: Taste is not an argument.


And spell slots are not Vancian casting? That IS vancian casting.
Dark souls is particular poor comparison. Dark Souls is set up in a way where the world resets when you rest. Its therfore the ideal game for Vancian casting to work.
And idk if dark souls actually has the "Best" combat system. Dark Souls combat system feels good, but Dark Souls combat system is mostly pattern recognition, i say that as someone whose played all Dark Souls games and finished 1 with mouse and keyboard for some reason.
DIdnt play bloodbourne cause i dont own a console.
Dark Souls combat system realy shows in PvP: a bunch of rolling and backstabbing. Dark Souls is excellence in level design and presentation, not neccesarily in combat system.

And pardon me, did you play OS2?
Because you have to make the exact same desicsions.
Do you want to waste 2 memory slots on a powerfull spel like closed circuit or do you want to use the two for "weaker" utiltiy spells like teleport or nether swap?

Dou you want to build a mage that covers all his bases by having spells that deal all damage types, thus having to specc into memory, or do you want to throw all your poitns into Intelligence to increase the damage of those spells that you have.
Likewise, theres source abilities, which dont have a cooldown but rely on a Ressource that you can have, at maximum, 3 of. You want to use all 3 of your source to cast overpower at the start of the fight to immediatly CC an enemy?
Or do you want to keep your source to use Skin graft to reset your cooldowns later on.

For one thing you compare apples to oranges (a tactical turn based RPG in which combats are balanced around starting wtih full HP versus a Marathon run Action RPG)
you also seem to have only a rudimentary understanding of one of the things you talk about.

Since when does Wizardry 8 have ultra slow animations, they dont even have melee attack animations, the only thing slow about Wiz 8 is the fact that the enemies come in huge blobs and move one at the time, But theres a mod that fixes that.

On your Knight example:
DnD 5E actually doesnt have the scenario anymore where the knife fighter cant hit the knight.
Bounded accuracy gets rid of that.
Furhtermore, read what i said, its probably gonna be a different game mechanic. Chances are, the knight with the Shield will manually block the attacks rather than the knife fighter "missing" the knight.
On the bullet sponge note: Wheres the difference?
If a Knight has so much damage reduction the knife fighter needs to hit him 200 times to kill him, or if the Knife fighter misses so ofthen that he needs to attak him 200 tiems to kill him..... wheres the difference?

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653518
02/07/19 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak

It didnt work well in Baldurs gate, it didnt work in neverwinter nights. And honestly, it doesnt work in DnD. All it does is forcing more rests. AS a DM the best thing you can do to make Vancian casting work is to create time pressure, make sure the party has to complete its objectives in a short timeframe.



Than answer. Why din't worked? What is the problem of an almost 50 yo system?


Originally Posted by Sordak

I mean besides Bows, that same thing applies to DnD. And in DnD and most infinity engine games, your ranger will be limited simply because of the layout of the battlefield, such as them beeing dungeons.


Is due technology limitations. IE is not an modern engine. And i loved Dragon's Dogma, because the ranger can actually attack at range

If you look to 3.5e PnP, Eldricht Spear has 250 feet(90m) range. And is an at will no ammo cost ability.

And IRL, bows can hit you very far away, an 300 yard (275m) shot > https://youtu.be/Et23I9zneqk?t=159


Originally Posted by Sordak

Cooldowns is a matter of opinion, as far as im concerned, they work better than vancian casting. Thats the reason modern games use cooldowns, because as a system its more consistent and more aplicable to a variety of playstyles.



No, is because RPG's aren't good and immersive as before.The fantasy of an warlock that damages himself chanelling hellfire is much more interesting than the fantasy of an warlock that can only cast hellfire once each X seconds.

Originally Posted by Sordak

And idk if dark souls actually has the "Best" combat system. Dark Souls combat system feels good, but Dark Souls combat system is mostly pattern recognition, i say that as someone whose played all Dark Souls games and finished 1 with mouse and keyboard for some reason.
(...)Dark Souls combat system realy shows in PvP: a bunch of rolling and backstabbing. Dark Souls is excellence in level design and presentation, not neccesarily in combat system.


Could be better. If for eg, shields reduce an flat amount, not by percentage(makes more sense) but i disagree about pvp. DkS 2 has an amazing pvp. I saw pure roleplay builds doing well on pvp.

Originally Posted by Sordak

For one thing you compare apples to oranges (a tactical turn based RPG in which combats are balanced around starting wtih full HP versus a Marathon run Action RPG)


DkS is just one example. ALL rpg's that don't use cooldowns works well. Action focused like Dragon's Dogma/Dark Souls, tactical focused like PoE 2 and Pathfinder Kingmaker, etc.


Originally Posted by Sordak

Furhtermore, read what i said, its probably gonna be a different game mechanic. Chances are, the knight with the Shield will manually block the attacks rather than the knife fighter "missing" the knight.



Armor class has an "evade" part and an deflection part. On aD&D, plate for eg is much better against slashing than against blunt by a reason.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653532
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Every time, man, i wonder if someone trains you people to spout the same regurgitated and especialy unfounded opinions on 4e.
So im not even gonna get into it

Says the man "getting into it."

Quote
you are only depriving yourself of an edition that actually made stuff different.

And the vast majority of D&D players, not to mention the *actual* marketplace, have deemed its very particular "differences" worthy of being related to the cesspit of failed RPG systems.

You undercut your arguments by holding it up as a system to be revered or imitated. The case against 4e was litigated a long time ago in a million courts of very public opinion.

4e is the Jar Jar Binks of D&D.

Hang your hat on its merits at your own peril.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653570
03/07/19 04:28 PM
03/07/19 04:28 PM
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Sordak Offline
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Sordak  Offline
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Vancian casting:
Why doesnt it work in Infinity engine games and NWN: Resting is too easy, its basically not a good restriction on Wizards. It works on Kingmaker, but thats because Kingmaker is a game with a worldmap, resting encounters and time constraints.

On bows: as said, you are gonna spend the majority of your time in DnD games either in a Dungoen or ambushed in close quarters, the full range of bows doesnt come into play ofthen and when it does, its in large scale battles or ambushes that the players lay for the enemies.
Dragons Dogma is a very different kind of game as Baldurs Gate or Divinity is, but as ive said before, if this were to be Baldurs Gate: Dragons Dogma, id be up for it, as i love that game.

On Cooldowns: Pardon me, where is the equivalency here? A Warlock that damages himself is more common in Video games (cast from HP) than it is in DnD.
Spell points are also not immersive, they are not immersive at all. They are an arbitrary restriction, especialy when an immersive restriction (spell components) is already in place.

On Dark Souls PvP: just cant agree, its basically been made obsolete by For Honor, Mordhau, Chivalry and Mount and Blade.
Dark Souls PvP is nice because of how it interacts with the base RPG, but from a pure 1v1 (like the bridge in DS2, i used to farm that to get the dragon covenant) im not impressed.

"All RPGs that use cooldowns dont work well" Ok. Im just gonna disagree with you there.
Do you know what RPG doesnt use cooldowns? Skyrim.
Using or not using cooldowns is not indicative of beeing a good game.

Full Bleed:

You realy think you are getting me with this? You think im interrested in this drivel? its your loss. I can play DnD with my friends anytime i like. And i can play any edition i like. And my friends prefer 4E to 5E, that or OSR stuff. Or TDE for that matter.

You realize that one of the most celebrated "innovations" from 5E, the Battlemaster, is ripped straight out of 4E right?
In fact, im fairly sure you cant even tell me whats supposed to be bad about 4E, you are just regurgitating what youve been told.
But at that point, i dont even want to hear it.
Go gobble up the same caster supremacy, save or suck, ToTM , generic spell list, vancian magic, e-celeb infested splatbook fests that you are used to from 3E, for all eternity.

Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: Sordak] #653573
04/07/19 12:38 AM
04/07/19 12:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 46
SorcererVictor Offline OP
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SorcererVictor  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Sordak
Resting is too easy, its basically not a good restriction on Wizards. It works on Kingmaker, but thats because Kingmaker is a game with a worldmap, resting encounters and time constraints.


So you agree that the main problem is much more the lack of consequences for resting than spell slots?

Originally Posted by Sordak

On bows: as said, you are gonna spend the majority of your time in DnD games either in a Dungoen or ambushed in close quarters, the full range of bows doesnt come into play ofthen and when it does, its in large scale battles or ambushes that the players lay for the enemies.


Not true. Depends a lot the setting and dungeon layouts. About close range, spells that has close range on 5e like Finger of Death has 60 feet range. And long range?

" 5th edition rules, a multi-classed Warlock 2 Sorcerer 3 that also uses the Spell Sniper feat, could potentially cast Eldritch Blast (using Eldritch Spear - 300ft, SS feat - doubled, and Distant Spell Metamagic - doubled again) at a range of 1,200 feet." https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/5urz4a/5e_viability_of_an_eldritch_sniper_w_12k_ft_range/

If you visit the post, you can see tons of utility for this "sniper build"

Originally Posted by Sordak

On Cooldowns: Pardon me, where is the equivalency here? A Warlock that damages himself is more common in Video games (cast from HP) than it is in DnD.


I was talking about hellfire warlock.

Originally Posted by Sordak

(1) Do you know what RPG doesnt use cooldowns? Skyrim.

(2) In fact, im fairly sure you cant even tell me whats supposed to be bad about 4E, you are just regurgitating what youve been told.

(3) Go gobble up the same caster supremacy, save or suck, ToTM , generic spell list, vancian magic, e-celeb infested splatbook fests that you are used to from 3E, for all eternity.



1 :

Skyrim use on SHOUTS.

And RPG's that don't use? Diablo 1/ Diablo 2(except few HW intensive skills), BG1, BG2, NWN, NWN2, IWD, IWD2, VtMB, Arcanum, Dark Souls 1, Dark Souls 2, Dark Souls 3, Demon Souls, Dragon's Dogma, KOTOR, KOTOR 2, Might & Magic 1...9(hated 10 and don't remember if use), daggerfall, morrowind, oblivion, wizardry 1...8, pathfinder kingmaker, fallout 1, fallout 2, fallout 3, fallout new vegas(din't played 4 or 76)(i can continue listing)

2 :

Not what i have been told. What happened. When the pnp generic mmo(4e) comes, D&D lost the title of most sold tabletop game to pathfinder.

3 :

1 - There are no caster supremacy, in some situations martial classed to better and in anothers, magic classes
2 - Save or Suck worked pretty well
3 - Stop Time, Portals, Charm(...) spell casters on D&D is good exactly because you can do much more than trow fireballs.


Last edited by vometia; 04/07/19 03:31 AM. Reason: formatting
Re: Make all rules alterations OPTIONAL!!! [Re: SorcererVictor] #653574
04/07/19 12:52 AM
04/07/19 12:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
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Nobody_Special Offline
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To get this thread back on topic.

Feats are an optional rule.

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