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Feats are an optional rule because 5E is designed to be very easy to pick up for new players.
I dont see many people playing wtihout feats tho.
Having feats beeing optional would make balancing the game very hard.

Victor:
The Problem with Vancian casting is first and foremost that it puts one part of the group on a different ressource system than the rest, and this seldom works out well.
As said, you need a very specific kind of campaign and even there it is awkward.

On Rangs:
i dont see how this adresses my point. Yes, there are long range spells in DnD. wether or not you use em at that range will be up to the DMs encounter design.
If you creep around int he Underdark, you probably wont get to use that advantage a lot.
Its highly situational.
The Original Sin games were essentialy games run by a DM that puts emphasis on close quarter combat. The same was true for Baldurs Gate.
I cant think of a single DnD game that made use of the maximum range of anyhting.

Ok. And how is a Hellfire warlock restricted to Vancian casting? Do you have any idea how many video games use that mechanic? How does empowering your class feature spell-like ability by taking damage have anything to do with the system for Spellcasting that is used? I dont see how these two things are related in any way.

1. and the majority of these games dont have spell slots. And what? fallout? those games dont even have magic in them.
The TES games had Mana, im pretty sure youd get mad if they replaced spell slots with mana.
My point still stands, wether or not you have cooldowns is not indicative of beeing a good game or not. Theres good games with cooldowns, theres bad games without cooldowns. Its a systemt hat can be adapted in a variety of ways

2. and even Paizo is realizing they created a Monstrosity and try to backpeddal with 2.0, and people are already hating it.
4E was too much of a change for grognards to adapt to, its still a great system and the fact that 13th age and strike exist just shows that the reason people didnt like 4E was because they had a lot of preconceived notions as to what DnD is supposed to be (and that was 3.5).

3.1: Is this what you people actually believe dont you. Its just flat out wrong.
3.2 no it didnt
3.3 Yes and completley break the game, making playing Dnd at high levles a complete joke, not to mention that its impossible for clases like ranger, monk , fighter or rogue to compete with that.
Wizards can stop time, throw people in pocket dimensions or just make people do whatever they want, meanwhile fighters can attack another time per turn and run fast.
See point 3.1.
Just some results from google
http://librarians-and-leviathans.blogspot.com/2015/04/power-and-utility-for-wizards-and.html
http://zennyonmymind.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-martial-vs-caster-imbalance-and.html

if it doesnt exist, why is it some of the most hotly debated topics in DnD and Pathfinder

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Originally Posted by Players Handbook - Chapter 6 paragraph 2
This chapter defines two sets of optional rules for customizing your characters: multiclassing and feats.


Whether or not they put them in is yet to be seen. I myself like feats because of the variety, but that still doesn't not negate the fact that they are optional.

Plus I thought it a good way to get this thread back to topic. (Not about 4E.)

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Sordak, i agree that you can only use this long range spells on D&D/Pathfinder if the encounter allows it. But there are an big difference between it and an immersion break hardcap on "sorry, i can't hit this elephant sized target because he is too far away, at 14m"

1 - spell slots is a system superior to mana. Easier to track, easier to prepare and easier to balance. But i was talking about games without cooldown.

2 - If people loved the "monstroisity", is the monstrosity that bad?

3 - Did you played Neverwinter Nights? Because Monks are often banned on pvp servers, due the insane speed, disarming, knockdown, high spell resistance, etc. And the strongest build that i saw in 400+ hours of NWN1 is an build that combines the monk bonus to AC and the shape of dragon from of a druid.

Talking about high level monks, on nwn1, an lv 20 monk can deal 5 attacks per round, each one dealing 2D10 damage + attribute mod. An sorcerer with 12 CON(+1) at lv 20 even with max hp per roll will have 100 hp, in other words, can be OHKilled in one round by an monk that will have a lot of SR and can knockdown the sorcerer easily. This not mentioning that Monks has the best saves on the game, is amazing at disarming, knocking out, etc and on nwn1, monks are nerfed compared to pnp. They don't get the outsider template, nor the ethereal ability(lv 19) > http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#perfectSelf

As for fighters, they are much more gear dependent than the monk. But even then can outDPS any caster if they have for eg +5 axe that deals +2D6 fire and +2D6 cold damage. And believe or not, this ludicrous OP weapons exists on NWN2 a lot. And note that on 3.0e, spell reistence works in a different way than 3.5e/pathfinder, spells like incendiary cloud that allow SR on 3e won't allow on 3.5e. It helped to make conjuration more viable, since conjuration deals in general less damage than evokation.

What makes casters special on D&D is exacly that they can do more than trow fireballs and clerics more than heal. If the DM allow your sorc charname to pick the strongest spells, allowed wiz to find the storngest scrolls but din't gave an powerful weapon to the fighter, then is a balance problem caused by the DM, not by the rules

BG has 298 spells > https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_(Baldur%27s_Gate_II)

edit : Fighters get amazing abilities on BG2 too > https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Smite

And here is some nwn spells,

The unique class that i agree that is weak is rogue.

edit 2 : An example of broken build on nwn1. http://world-of-greyhawk.github.io/builds/data/build312774.html

Originally Posted by "The build"

HP: 320 unbuffed/ 440 buffed / 980 + when buffed and in dragon form
AC: 32 unbuffed/ 45 buffed/ 76 buffed + dragon/ 86 buff + dragon + Imp. Expertise
BAB: 22
AB: 21
AB Dragon form: +45 claws / +39 bite, +51/+45 capped STR
add +2 in outdoor areas
Damage: (claw/claw/bite) 2d6+25/2d6+25/2d8+19
Saves (Fort/Ref/Will): 24/21/33, 35/34/33 in Dragon form


This stats are similar to deities... I an not joking.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 04/07/19 07:03 PM.
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i understand the immersion thing.
but it depends ont he kind of game. In dragons dogma, having low arrow range would piss me off.
In OS2 i dont care, its mechanical abstraction and to me, gameplay > realism.

1 - Spell slots are easier to keep track of in a PnP game, in a video game its automated so it doesnt matter. Im personally not a big fan of mana either.
my issue with spell slot is not the time limitaiton, the issue is that a wizard works differently to a warrior and that creates a stupid situation where either the wizard twiddles his thumbs or the warrior constantly has to watch the wizard taking nappies.
the AEDU system fixed this. but everyone hated it.
2 - Yes, honestly 5E is nothing compared to Pathfinder in terms of trap options. Pathfinder has literal Tier lists to warn people about unplayable classes. Im not just talking about feats that are bad, theres just classes that are flat out worse at the thing they are supposed to excel at compared to a class that only does this as a side option
3 - NWN is a video game, so a lot of the stuff you can do in PnP doesnt work. And PvP servers also dont have the pause option, which makes it a lot harder for Wizards to do their wizard thing. also NWN is basedo n 3.5 where monks were significantly better than in 5E, in 5E monks, along with rangers are basically joke options.


And realy, you need to read the links ive provided. this is not about DPR.
Damage is irrelevant. sure a fighter and a monk can maybe outdamage a wizard. But a Wizard can just make the encounter go away without fighting. And the wizard can change his spell layout every rest.
If the fighter doesnt pick up an item that lets him fly, hes basically screwed in later levels.
And that is BY THE RULES.
I know what you are saying. But i disagree. The DM is not supposed to develop the game. WOTC is supposed to do that. The DM is not supposed to houserule spells to make Wizards not have access to them. Especialy since then the DM would have to ban most high level spells.

And that doesnt even begin to get into the situaiton where the wizards dont just use their spells as discribed in the rules, but start getting creative with them.

TL;DR: It was never about Damage, damage is irrelevent when you can just solve an encounter another way.
Martials get no utility options. and if the DM is required to houserule to balance the Wizard, then yes the wizard IS op.

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1 - If everyone hated, is because the solution is worst than the """problem"""

2 -Then re write this "useless classes"

3 - Name one thing that doesn't work

3.2 - About pvp servers, you have have 12 spells on F1-F12, 12 on CTRL F1-F12 and 12 on SHIFT F1-F12, totalizing 36 spells to quickly cast.

About range, imagine someone that loves to create "sniper builds"and now needs to deal with an NERF range gun? Imagine someone that loves to create an undead/construct army and now can only have one minion? You literally killed the main appeal for the class on your CRPG. About wizard being OP, i mentioned a lot of situations where other classes excel and of course an class that has D4 hit dice compared to classes with D10 or D12 and proficiency on weapons needs to do interesting stuff. Compare Wizards with Fighters makes no sense since both are completely different. Is like compare apples to oranges. Compare Wizards to Cleric then. An Cleric

- Has D8 hit dice, twice the wizard
- Can cast wearing armor without any penalty
- Has much more healing spells and can even revive dead party members
- Get weapon proficiency
- Even as a necromancer, can on aD&D and on 3.5e cast Animate dead far before arcane casters
- On NWN1, they can cast Implosion, an AOE OHK that is not subjected to death effect immunity
- Use WIS, it make then WILL saving throw better on 3.5e

Looks like you don't wanna play D&D. You wanna play an generic mmo where magicians can only trow fireballs, with cooldowns, armor determining your character attributes, where clerics can only heal, etc.

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1. people hated it because OLD THING GOOD NEW THING BAD, this very thread is also a good case study of this phenomenon.
2. in case of martialsyou cannot. There has been huge debate about this on the official forums. The design philosophy of Pathfinder is simply that you arent allowed to do this.
Let me explain: a developer actually came into the thread, and n o i dont have the exact thread, and said that a non magical character in pathfinder is never supposed to do anything that a Human cannot do in real life. The result of that is simply that in order to make a class viable, it has to become magical. And thats just how it works.

In the case of other classes: well yes, you could rewrite them, but they dont. And thats why its a flaw in game development.
If a video game is bad, are you going to defend it by saying "Just mod it"?

Explained briefly without going into a lenghty tangent on what exactly that means

3. You simply cannot get creative with abilities. I dont know if you ever played DnD in real life, but theres so many things you can do with spells if you get creative. Meanwhile video games ofthen dont let you do the simplest stuff, such as flying. Very few games actually let you do that. Or properly teleport long distances, or lock things into pocket dimensions.

3.2 just compare what you discribe with how combat goes in your average RTWP game. Kiting people around is far less likeley to happen in a complete real time setting. Not impossible but usually an MMO thing.

As for sniper builds. Mate, not every game is going to have every possible character playable.
And a "sniper" build is a relativeley niche character. Why cant i have a grappling character? thats exactly as niche and no video game has done it so far. None, at least no DnD video game i know of.
Theres just some things that video games arent designed to do. How many video games have made characters viable where you wield a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? OS2 with mods actually, but thats besides the point.
You cannot expect a video game to cater to every single playstyle and still hope for it to have depth left at the end of it.


On comparing apples to oranges: do you understand that you are making my point for me here right?
Exactly, you cannot compare a fighter to a wizard. You can only compare a Cleric to a Wizard because a cleric is largley in the same "Power category" as a Fighter.

Its about utility. a Wizard has all of it, a Cleric has a lot of it, a fighter has very little and a ranger has none of it. and now look at the DnD 5E class tier list and OH LOOK, thats exactly the kind of lineup you end up with.
It DOES NOT MATTER how many HP a Wizard has, if a wizard can solve a combat encoutner without actually fighting, meanwhile a Fighter CANNOT solve any encounter that is not fighting or Intimidating related. Thats the crux of the issue that you conveniently choose to ignore.
https://imgur.com/c0kL5hf
Heres a neat little infograph
and here another neat one from /tg/
https://imgur.com/WU8mLqB

And hah, thats rich. i AM playing DnD. I DM for two groups and am a player in a TDE camapign.
You know what i want? A game in which each character contributes to the group, in which each character has a ROLE to play in that group (its not called ROLE palying game for no reason) , rather than one character trivializing anohter.

So you know what i want?
I want to make non Caster classes BETTER and give them MORE options outside of combat. I want Battlemaster maneuvers for every martial class. Why cant a barbarian sweep someones leg? or a rogue? Why can only a battlemaster do that?

And also, i want to break up the wizard into multiple classes.
Explain to me, why are these seperate classes
-Non magic character that shoots a bow, has an animal companion and lives in nature
-Non magic character that Uses heavy armor and fights in close combat
-Non magic character that doesnt use heavy armor and fights in close combat, also rages
-non magic character that steals things and can do backstabs

While
-Can cast fireball, and turn invisible, and shield his allies, summon meteors, summon monsters, charm people, fly, summon a magic house to spend the night in, summon food, summon undead, open locked doors, cast telekinesis, teleport
Is a single class?
There should not be a "Wizard" class.
There should be a "Pyromancer" class, and an "Illusionist" class or a "Summoner" class.
Having a single person do all of these things and change them on a long rest is ridiculous.
A Rogue cannot, on a long rest, decide that he now wants to be able to enter a Berserker rage.

Im not going to convince you, you are stonewalling me by ignoring the actual reason why fighters and wizards are not balanced towards one another.
But maybe i can convince some others.



Last edited by Sordak; 05/07/19 10:11 PM.
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I do not really agree in everything, but you have a point on some things you´ve said.

The pure caster classes (wizards, clerics, druids, bards...) have much more options than non-casters. I am not talking about combat or buffs.
I do not know if it is the same in 5e, but usually, there is almost nothing a non-caster class can do that you cannot do with a spell.
Yo need scouting? eye of mage, sanctuary, far view, some invisibility spell, and voila, instantly improved scouting.
You need help in diplomacy? You have discern lies, friends spell, charm, illusion...
Traps? Find traps (ok, you cannot disable them unless arcane trickster or something like that)
Problems navigating desfavorable terrain? fly, feather fall, resist heat/cold, oasis.
Travelling too slow? Wind walk, haste, conjure carriage,
You are hungry/thirsty? create food and water, good berries,...
You need brute force? Bull's strength, tenser transformation, polymorph or summon something to do it for you...
You have to build or repair something? Fabricate!
A problem that is not of the above? Wish!

I understand it gives you more rp options for caster types, but I found it too unbalanced IMHO.

Last edited by _Vic_; 06/07/19 02:22 AM.
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1 - No, people don't automatically hate new things. Pathfinder brought a lot of new classes. Examples? Alchemist, Magnus, Witch, etc and IMO Witch is far better than 3.5e or 5e warlock.

People hate when the new system offers less than previous ones. Imagine if an car company decides to remove features from his car and sell for more. Why with gaming, people accept so easily the lost of features?

2 - Of course and it makes perfectly sense. If supernatural abilities exists, those who have then can do much more than those who doesn't have then. They give 3x the hit dice and try limit casters to try to create an incentive to play as this classes, but honestly, what is the solution? Create an MMOish style of combat? Seeing your solution to have an evoker, an illusionist, an conjurer, etc is an better fix. Allow maneuvers too. About Clerics, clerics have domains, something similar could be implemented to Wizards. And even Wiz, has few casts/rest and need preparation to use the class versatility.

The same problem will not happen with an sorcerer that roleplays his bloodline. For example, i on P:K created an silver dragon disciple. Din't picked an single fire based spell, doesn't matter if i would face undeads and Trolls. Because makes no sense someone who draws his power from his silver draconic heritage to use an power that is exactly the opposite. Doesn't matter if the rules allow it. Makes no sense.

3 - I still disagree that the "sniper" builds are niche. According to an poll, the most popular class on Dragon's Dogma was RANGER. Despite the fact that BI isles is very CQB based. Also, long range enemies can be used AGAINST the party.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not really agree in everything, but you have a point on some things you´ve said.

The pure caster classes (wizards, clerics, druids, bards...) have much more options than non-casters. I am not talking about combat or buffs.
I do not know if it is the same in 5e, but usually, there is almost nothing a non-caster class can do that you cannot do with a spell.
Yo need scouting? eye of mage, sanctuary, far view, some invisibility spell, and voila, instantly improved scouting.
You need help in diplomacy? You have discern lies, friends spell, charm, illusion...
Traps? Find traps (ok, you cannot disable them unless arcane trickster or something like that)
Problems navigating desfavorable terrain? fly, feather fall, resist heat/cold, oasis.
Travelling too slow? Wind walk, haste, conjure carriage,
You are hungry/thirsty? create food and water, good berries,...
You need brute force? Bull's strength, tenser transformation, polymorph or summon something to do it for you...
You have to build or repair something? Fabricate!
A problem that is not of the above? Wish!

I understand it gives you more rp options for caster types, but I found it too unbalanced IMHO.



Again, see what i've said.

Casters to replace the role that an non caster can do, needs to spend an spell slot. And an wizard needs to have knowledge to prepare. And Wish, is a tier 9 spell. Takes an long time to get Wish. Also, Wish is very DM dependent. You can't for eg "i wish that i an a god"(you can, but the DM can make you become an immortal slime demigod being burned eternally on plane of fire, or simple say that the spell failed because <<insert any reason>>). And items can give this "powers" to martial classes. Also, depending your heritage, you can get wings.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 06/07/19 03:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
1 - No, people don't automatically hate new things.

Quite a bit of the negative comments about Beyond Divinity at release were about it being different than Divine Divinity. While there were certainly valid criticisms (ie with the skill system some of the skills were unnecessarily divided), much of it was overblown IMNSHO or concerned issues easily avoided or worked around. The stat system in BD allowed many more viable character builds, for example (warriors in DD pretty consistently ended up as 2 parts strength, 2 parts agility and 1 part constitution).

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Originally Posted by Raze
Quite a bit of the negative comments about Beyond Divinity at release were about it being different than Divine Divinity. While there were certainly valid criticisms (ie with the skill system some of the skills were unnecessarily divided), much of it was overblown IMNSHO or concerned issues easily avoided or worked around. The stat system in BD allowed many more viable character builds, for example (warriors in DD pretty consistently ended up as 2 parts strength, 2 parts agility and 1 part constitution).

Yeah, for me it seemed a natural progression of DD and had a lot of nice features. My only real complaint (I mean other than I would've preferred it if the death knight kept its opinions to itself) is that it wasn't green enough! The landscape eventually did my head in a bit. But as gripes go, that's really pretty subjective.


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Originally Posted by Raze
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
1 - No, people don't automatically hate new things.

Quite a bit of the negative comments about Beyond Divinity at release were about it being different than Divine Divinity. While there were certainly valid criticisms (ie with the skill system some of the skills were unnecessarily divided), much of it was overblown IMNSHO or concerned issues easily avoided or worked around. The stat system in BD allowed many more viable character builds, for example (warriors in DD pretty consistently ended up as 2 parts strength, 2 parts agility and 1 part constitution).


I searched a little about divine divinity and the game looks amazing. I purchased but unfortunately din't worked on M$ Win 10. I have dual boot. At the moment, i an installing on Linux using wine + PlayOnLinux with an slow internet. Looks like there are no BS nerf range on spells/weapons and that there are no cooldown, also, gear looks like works more like eqquipment instead of the DNA of your character. There are also cool spells that allow you to take control over the dead and reanimate then. And the combat animations are very fast.

Literally all complains that i have against D:OS 2 doesn't exist on this game and i wanna try. Thanks for mentioning the game.

The review that made me buy the game >



PS : Is Beyond Divinity different. How?

-----------------------------------

If Larian decides to change BG3 rules to be more DD like, i would't hate. Will still prefer BG1/2, but will not be an "never buy" game. If they change to have the same things that i din't liked about D:OS2, i would not play even for free.

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Honestly its best if you just look up beyond divinity.
its a strange game, you have two characters, one of which is a paladin who you can fully customize and one who is a demon.
strange game but fun all the same.

On your points

1 - but they do. Pathfinder included "new" things but it also had the exact same system for them.
People dont like change. Even if its change for the better, same as they now hate on PF2.0
2 - I already told you the solution, give each class a specific niche, dont let one class overshadow another, have the classes NEED each other and work as a TEAM, i dont care about the MMO boogeyman. MMOs came from MUDs which came from online PnP sessions, just because MMOs do soemthing doenst mean its automatically bad, or generic for that matter.
Roleplay is one thing, but people will find justifications to powegame.
You have it the wrong way around. The rules should be balanced, the DM should allow unbalance if its in the interrest of roleplay. What you suggest is that the rules should be unbalanced and people should self regulate.
i dont think this will ever happen.
This is ok in a single player PC game, but not as soon as several people are invovled. Its just not fun to be the party face trap disam rogue and just have the wizard do all those things with a spell that you built your character around.

3 - well, its a matter of taste. In a genre mostly known for dungoen exploraiton id say a long range character is pretty niche.
I think the dragons dogma case is a chicken or the egg question.
Is the Ranger a popular class in Dragons Dogma because people want to play a "sniper" or is the Ranger a popular class because in Dragons Dogma its fun to use.
In Everquest Necromancer was one of the most played classes and it bareley exists in PnP RPGs and CRPGs, mostly as some obscure prestige class in NWN2.

A game has to decide what options ot include and what options not to include.
It doesn tmean that a game SHOULDNT include a sniper class, all im saying is that OS2 decided not to. but OS2 did other things that are "niche". Summoners are not very common in RPGs, and neither are wand and shield casters, which is a great option in OS2.

On casters:
Spell slots that the casters can allocate EVERY 8 HOURS OF REST.
meanwhile a non caster needs to build his ENTIRE CHARACTER to do this ONE thing and CANNOT change it even on level up.

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1 - No, Alchemists are FAR different than normal casters. Magnus too, extremely more focused on melee. Witch that is the most similar that i've mentioned has an completely different relationship with her PATRON and her familiar. Not mentioning an unique type of spell. Hexes.

2 - Most MMOs do bad things, mainly after WoW. And if the versatility of Wizards bothers you(not caster, all wizards are casters, but not all casters are wizards), you can create an homebrew rule that for eg "wizards needs to have an specialization and needs to use 2 slots to cast an spell from another non prohibited school", that way, an evoker to cast stoneskin(abjuration), needs to pay an greater cost. Or you can rule that an Wizard can only pick spells from two schools.

But for many people, the main advantage of wizards over sorcerers and clerics is the versatility.

3 - If you dungeon has enough space for an colossal Dragon trowing breath attacks at 140 ft and maybe flying, it has space for you to "snipe". And if you nerf the range, you literally kill a lot of spells that are hard to be used on CQB due the "team damage". For eg, on Pathfinder Kingmaker, is almost impossible for me to use Horrid Wilting and this spell could help me a lot against jabberwocks. I will not spoil, but they are not easy enemies. But i could't use the spell. The spell should have 400 ft + 40 / caster level range, like on PnP, but thanks to the ARTIFICIAL limitation, i wasted an tier 8 spell that barely used and believe on me. P:K isn't an game where you can learn how to cast tier 8 spells easily. And there aren't epic levels on pathfinder. From lv 17 to 18, took dozens of hours.

But at least the Wild Hunt Archers are terrifying enemies and one reason to that is their RANGE.

Even outside dungeons. There are modules about fortress building. There are a lot of campaigns on feyworld, plane of air, cold montains, etc.

BTW, how this spell can work with the same area of effect with an nerfed range without dealing massive damage to your party???

[Linked Image]
(source : https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/horrid-wilting/ )

edit : i an not sure if they changed how the spell works on updates.

Originally Posted by Sordak

On casters:
Spell slots that the casters can allocate EVERY 8 HOURS OF REST.
meanwhile a non caster needs to build his ENTIRE CHARACTER to do this ONE thing and CANNOT change it even on level up.



Correction
Spell slots that the WIZARDS can allocate every 8 hours of rest
Sorcerers can't swap their spells
Clerics are restricted to his domain
Warlocks on 3.5e has little versatility. Are more akin to "eldricht snipers"
(...)
Maybe you can say that Witches on Pathinder has the same versatility as Wizards, but in order to say that, you are saying that INT casters are more versatile than CHA and WIS casters. And in this point i agree. And i love to play as spontaneous caster.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 06/07/19 11:00 PM. Reason: grammar, img and source
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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Casters to replace the role that an non caster can do, needs to spend an spell slot. And an wizard needs to have knowledge to prepare. And Wish, is a tier 9 spell. Takes an long time to get Wish. Also, Wish is very DM dependent. You can't for eg "i wish that i an a god"(you can, but the DM can make you become an immortal slime demigod being burned eternally on plane of fire, or simple say that the spell failed because <<insert any reason>>). And items can give this "powers" to martial classes. Also, depending your heritage, you can get wings.


No, casters don´t need to prepare a spell slot necessarily


[Linked Image]

Items also give powers to caster classes, In fact most non-martial classes cannot use them unless they spend ponts to do it in the build: scrolls, wands and rods.

Same as always, you need to change your build and level-up to do the same as a lvl 1 wizard with a bunch of wands and scrolls.



Last edited by _Vic_; 07/07/19 01:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor

Casters to replace the role that an non caster can do, needs to spend an spell slot. And an wizard needs to have knowledge to prepare. And Wish, is a tier 9 spell. Takes an long time to get Wish. Also, Wish is very DM dependent. You can't for eg "i wish that i an a god"(you can, but the DM can make you become an immortal slime demigod being burned eternally on plane of fire, or simple say that the spell failed because <<insert any reason>>). And items can give this "powers" to martial classes. Also, depending your heritage, you can get wings.


No, casters don´t need to prepare a spell slot necessarily



Items also give powers to caster classes, In fact most non-martial classes cannot use them unless they spend ponts to do it in the build: scrolls, wands and rods.

Same as always, you need to change your build and level-up to do the same as a lvl 1 wizard with a bunch of wands and scrolls.




Except that WANDS aren't for free and can't cast any spell. I don't know much about 5e, but on Pathfinder, they require an use magic device check(, that is a CHA based check( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/use-magic-device/ ) and an wand of stoneskin for eg costs 21k gold. enough to buy 4 +2 belt of giant strength (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-of-giant-strength)

This not mentioning that wands can only "charge" spells up to tier 4 ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wands/ )

So, you can have an wand of fireballs, but no wand of stop time, wand of wish, wand of create greater undead or etc. Say that an lv 1 wiz would have access to this wands/scrolls makes no sense. Is like say that an half orc barbarian with 22 STR raging with an adamantine fire greataxe can outDPS an wizard with 6 CON/6 STR at mid levels inside a Antimagic Field... And on Divine Divinity, i an playing as an mage and i an pretty versatile. Can animate 3 skeletons with skill level = 3, and looks like even the skill that allow you to become invisible isn't on CD. You just spend a lot of mana / second(din't unlocked this skill yet)

The point of magic in fantasy is the same of technology IRL. Allow humans to do things that they could't otherwise. Arcanum was an interesting game, because both are opposite. Technology is the application of nature laws. Magic is the negation. So, if you focus on tech, you can create an steampunk army, make steampunk grenade launchers, just like magicians can trow fireballs and conjure servants.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 07/07/19 02:24 AM.
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Wands and scrolls do not require any check (nor even level check) if you are a caster of the appropriate class ( A wizard can use a fireball wand without checks, a priest can use a rod or resurrection without check)

A rogue will need a uber high use magic item (and it is not a cross-class skill for rogues, it is for all non-caster basic classes) to have only a "probability", a chance to use a wish scroll once. A wizard level 1 can use a abi-dalzim or wish lvl 9 scroll at wizard level 1 if he/she wishes to and find or buy one. Scrolls do not have level limits.

A fighter would never be able to use a critical strike scroll or a ranger a hide in plain sight scroll. Because there is no scrolls or rods or wands for class skills. You can cast spells that enhance your skills, but... you have to be able to cast them.

You will have to level-up and spend your points to detect traps with a rogue, a cleric only have to buy or find a 120 gp wand of find traps to do the same. With no checks.We were talking about the things that some classes can or not can do... remember?

Also I wasn´t talking about combat. Of course all classes are decent at combat.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not really agree in everything, but you have a point on some things you´ve said.

The pure caster classes (wizards, clerics, druids, bards...) have much more options than non-casters. I am not talking about combat or buffs.
I do not know if it is the same in 5e, but usually, there is almost nothing a non-caster class can do that you cannot do with a spell.
Yo need scouting? eye of mage, sanctuary, far view, some invisibility spell, and voila, instantly improved scouting.
You need help in diplomacy? You have discern lies, friends spell, charm, illusion...
Traps? Find traps (ok, you cannot disable them unless arcane trickster or something like that)
Problems navigating desfavorable terrain? fly, feather fall, resist heat/cold, oasis.
Travelling too slow? Wind walk, haste, conjure carriage,
You are hungry/thirsty? create food and water, good berries,...
You need brute force? Bull's strength, tenser transformation, polymorph or summon something to do it for you...
You have to build or repair something? Fabricate!
A problem that is not of the above? Wish!

I understand it gives you more rp options for caster types, but I found it too unbalanced IMHO.



There is almost nothing that a non-caster can do that you can´t do with a spell outside combat. So, mage or cleric, you have to rest? You have to buy something? Well, I have to reach the xp needed to level up and pick feats and skillpoints to do the same... And then, I have a "chance" to make a check and be able to use my skill. Most "utility" spells do not require this.
Ej: True sight does not allow saving. Perception requires checks to find a secret door hidden behind an illusion, or an invisible character.

ED: I forgot: It would be terrific if D&D, Drakensang, Pathfinder... will give us the chance to build our spectacle glasses, mechanic automatons, skeleton keys, flash grenades, hand cannons... like in Arcanum. But all they give you are more spells or magic items ( that are objects that allow you to... tachaaaan... cast spells most of the time). Wtf are the gnomes in Lantan or the alchemists doing? XDD


Last edited by _Vic_; 07/07/19 03:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Wands and scrolls do not require any check (nor even level check) if you are a caster of the appropriate class ( A wizard can use a fireball wand without checks, a priest can use a rod or resurrection without check)

A rogue will need a uber high use magic item (and it is not a cross-class skill for rogues, it is for all non-caster basic classes) to have only a "probability", a chance to use a wish scroll once. A wizard level 1 can use a abi-dalzim or wish lvl 9 scroll at wizard level 1 if he/she wishes to and find or buy one. Scrolls do not have level limits. (...)
ED: I forgot: It would be terrific if D&D, Drakensang, Pathfinder... will give us the chance to build our spectacle glasses, mechanic automatons, skeleton keys, flash grenades, hand cannons... like in Arcanum. But all they give you are more spells or magic items ( that are objects that allow you to... tachaaaan... cast spells most of the time). Wtf are the gnomes in Lantan or the alchemists doing? XDD



Again. See the Price of the scroll/wand.

An class "A" can do much more versatility than another. Solution?
A ) Remove all cool stuff from class A
B ) Add cool stuff to class "B"

IMO since the game is based on 5e, should have everything good and bad about 5e and honestly, i prefer 3.5e, but WotC would never license an old edition.

If you wanna kill the wiz/clerics from one of the best series. There are 754765465426547653 generic mmos where an wizard can trow an fireball and wait 20 seconds in cooldown to trow again an spell that can only reach 10m. And clerics can only heal. 4e is the most homogenized aka balanced edition of D&D and is the worst. If you wanna everyone using an fast swinging blade, there are 765764576547654 jRPG's following that "rule". But we don't have an large budget RPG that allows a lot of player freedom from a long time.

About grenades and handcannons, please. Check alchemist and gunslinger on pathfinder. Gunslingers can use tons of different cartridges Alchemist can do a lot of cool stuff with discoveries.To name some
  • "Gain mummy-like immunities "
  • "Gain wings that let you fly "
  • When you create a bomb, you can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it.
  • Increase physical scores and decrease mental scores
  • Cause a potion to become permanent
  • Create a temporary body
  • Create zombie as if created by animate dead
  • Bomb deals piercing damage instead of fire, and creatures that take a direct hit from a boneshard bomb must succeed at a Fortitude save or take 1d4 bleed in addition to normal damage. Creatures killed by a boneshard bomb or the bleed effect immediately reanimate as an undead creature with the skeleton template and count as undead created by animate dead for the purposes of determining how many undead the alchemist can control.
  • Gain two claw attacks and a bite attack

source > http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries
An grenadier build on P:K



RPG's are interesting because they can emulate an fictional living breathing world. And "spoiler". Fast swinging blades was never an efficient way to fight. During the ice age? Bows, spears, traps to kill larger creatures. Indigenous on Americas? Trowing Axes, spears, bows, traps and poison. Mongols dominated an insanely large region due his use of mounted cavalry and bows. Nobunaga Oda "unified" the Japan using firearms, And there are other examples, during the battle of Agincourt, you can see an small number of archers killing hordes of French with horses, heavy armor, etc.

And even in the "cool aspect", materialize an wall os skeletons, stop the time, use an anti materiel rifle with explosive rounds, craft deadly bombs, mutagens that make your character superhuman. This is much cool than... Swing an sword.

PS : No, bombs/grenades aren't spells on the mentioned game.

PS 2 : Pathfinder picked an interesting ruleset and added new cool stuff. 4e removed.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 07/07/19 04:19 AM. Reason: add source
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Wands and scrolls do not require any check (nor even level check) if you are a caster of the appropriate class ( A wizard can use a fireball wand without checks, a priest can use a rod or resurrection without check)

A rogue will need a uber high use magic item (and it is not a cross-class skill for rogues, it is for all non-caster basic classes) to have only a "probability", a chance to use a wish scroll once. A wizard level 1 can use a abi-dalzim or wish lvl 9 scroll at wizard level 1 if he/she wishes to and find or buy one. Scrolls do not have level limits.

A fighter would never be able to use a critical strike scroll or a ranger a hide in plain sight scroll. Because there is no scrolls or rods or wands for class skills. You can cast spells that enhance your skills, but... you have to be able to cast them.

You will have to level-up and spend your points to detect traps with a rogue, a cleric only have to buy or find a 120 gp wand of find traps to do the same. With no checks.We were talking about the things that some classes can or not can do... remember?

Also I wasn´t talking about combat. Of course all classes are decent at combat.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not really agree in everything, but you have a point on some things you´ve said.

The pure caster classes (wizards, clerics, druids, bards...) have much more options than non-casters. I am not talking about combat or buffs.
I do not know if it is the same in 5e, but usually, there is almost nothing a non-caster class can do that you cannot do with a spell.
Yo need scouting? eye of mage, sanctuary, far view, some invisibility spell, and voila, instantly improved scouting.
You need help in diplomacy? You have discern lies, friends spell, charm, illusion...
Traps? Find traps (ok, you cannot disable them unless arcane trickster or something like that)
Problems navigating desfavorable terrain? fly, feather fall, resist heat/cold, oasis.
Travelling too slow? Wind walk, haste, conjure carriage,
You are hungry/thirsty? create food and water, good berries,...
You need brute force? Bull's strength, tenser transformation, polymorph or summon something to do it for you...
You have to build or repair something? Fabricate!
A problem that is not of the above? Wish!

I understand it gives you more rp options for caster types, but I found it too unbalanced IMHO.



There is almost nothing that a non-caster can do that you can´t do with a spell outside combat. So, mage or cleric, you have to rest? You have to buy something? Well, I have to reach the xp needed to level up and pick feats and skillpoints to do the same... And then, I have a "chance" to make a check and be able to use my skill. Most "utility" spells do not require this.
Ej: True sight does not allow saving. Perception requires checks to find a secret door hidden behind an illusion, or an invisible character.

ED: I forgot: It would be terrific if D&D, Drakensang, Pathfinder... will give us the chance to build our spectacle glasses, mechanic automatons, skeleton keys, flash grenades, hand cannons... like in Arcanum. But all they give you are more spells or magic items ( that are objects that allow you to... tachaaaan... cast spells most of the time). Wtf are the gnomes in Lantan or the alchemists doing? XDD



D&D was never about balance except for a DM balancing an encounter to meet the parties strength. The classes were never meant to be balanced. The party was meant to cooperate with each other to overcome obstacles.

A mage only has so many spells they can mesmerize at any given time.

Spells require a roll DC of 10 + the level of the spell if it is higher than what you can cast.

All wands are not spell caster dependent. And some of them require atonement. (You can only attune 3 items at a time.)

There are other magic items that a fighter can use. Chimes of opening, Ring of Spell storing. Boots of levitation, Potions, Ring of Wishes, Boots of Haste, ect.....
then again if you have to attune to them you can only attune to 3 at a time.

In D&D you have Alchemist Flask, Acid Vials, Arrows with, poison, flames.

Yet there are many magic items that a Wizard can not use that a fighter can.

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Guys, you gave some good insight about game mechanics, but you keep talking again, and again and again about spells and skills only (or mostly) used in combat. That was never an issue for me. I think all of us agree that all classes have combat capabilites in one way or another, in different situations.

Like I said several times, I only have issues with the use in rp outside combat. I would like a little more flexibility for most non-caster builds. I think this discussion reached the "point of pointlessness"

ED: I will try to explain. I usually play druids, witches, clerics, wizards, warlocks,... Whenever I try a ranger, fighter, barbarian,etc I find myself just waiting to the next random encounter or combat situation because most of the time I have little to no chance of intervene with a minimum chance of sucess, besides very obvious situations (Tracking something with a ranger, move or break something heavy or resist a constitution check, intimidate or hit something). Luckyly talk is a free action so it is not that you are doing nothing but...
So in most of those events I found myself thinking "Wow, I could totally do this with that spell/ help with that buff/use my familiar or summon.... instead of being here looking intimidating (Because due to encumberance penalties, you cannot even make most checks with all that armor unless a caster helped you with a spell). And you also cannot respec your class build while sleeping, but you can change your spells so the next day you can face different dangers with the same character, You can never go to sleep with your gruffy ranger and wake up being an expert diplomat, but you wake up with your bard or wizard and cast an ilusion spell, a buffing spell or spell-charm your way. You have the same skills but also you have the spells if the need arises. And normally you use a spell, even if it is only to buffing your character or one of your mates. Some classes excel, but only in a limited number of scenarios. Caster classes almost always gives you options with a little planning. Even if that option is simply support the others.

They say that it is less extreme in 5e, but I do not have the chance to try the new systems. Let´s see what they do with BG3.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/07/19 10:58 AM.
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_Vic_ But there are an huge difference of Baldur's Gate and D&D. On BG you control an party of 1-6 characters. And again, if for you fighter and barb are boring, why you wanna make all classes boring to play?

And again, you ignored spontaneous casters that can't swap their spells. Makes more sense to you complain about spell swap than about arcane casters in general. Can an sorcerer that roleplayed his lineage change his spells at will? Again to my pathfinder silver dragon sorc. Only with cold and few electricity offensive spells + some buffs and summons, when i needed to fight an lich for eg, can i just swap to fire spells? No. An Paladin will have much more chance to shine. This means that paladins are OP? No. This means that they are in a situation where their class excel. I don't like play as a paladin, but i an not complaining. Because makes sense lore wise.

And an "low magic" setting where scrolls are hardly available don't have this problem with wizards.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 07/07/19 07:04 PM.
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