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Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Try2Handing] #655902
30/09/19 05:13 PM
30/09/19 05:13 PM
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Goblin Lich Offline
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
Originally Posted by Goblin Lich

If a game design require you to play in a certain way that is both harder and not what is intended gameplay, to be more fun. Do you really expect people, who already find it boring, to bother to get so familiar with the game that they can play it in such a manner? Thats ridiculous.

...

Read the very first bullet point I said in that post.

The point of the video, like I said, is simply to answer the question "can it be done or not?", and also to eventually prove that, this game is simply *not* for some people. There is no point for these people to come here whining the game is "boring" and whatnot with their stupid reasoning, because this game is simply NOT FOR THEM. So they really should just shut the fuck up.

"What is intended gameplay." Exactly. The intended gameplay is to pause. The video was an answer to those who can't enjoy the INTENDED gameplay. Like I pointed out, you can't enjoy the "normal" gameplay, you also can't be bothered to try and play it in a "not normal" way to see if it's more fun, you also can't be bothered to get better at the game.


It's fun to see how you try and twist and turn all arguments. I responded to the last bullet point, wich said "people complain a game is boring or whatever, yet they can't be bothered to try and find out if there is a way to make the game more fun for them and also can't be bothered to try and get better at the game they're playing, either.".
And this thread is about what system people would prefer BG3 to be, so "whining" as you put it, is kinda the point of the thread. Anyway, not gonna go on talking with someone like you, cheers.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655903
30/09/19 06:08 PM
30/09/19 06:08 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,658
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

Duchess of Gorgombert
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Joined: May 2010
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The Frog & Hounds
Guys, be nice.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: vometia] #655905
30/09/19 07:51 PM
30/09/19 07:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 556
Midway Through Infinity
Try2Handing Offline
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Midway Through Infinity
There are different kinds of "whining". There's people who have differing opinions and they say what they think and what makes them think that way. And then there's people who's completely clueless and have no idea what tf they're doing with the game, but instead of simply saying "This combat's not for me" or "I can't get into this kind of combat", they trash talk like they know very well what they're talking about. And when someone points out that they're clueless, they'd like "lol".

Originally Posted by Brent2410
gz tho, you for sure did something not a lot of people can do.

...But was still not satisfied with the fact that I played on Core Rules. If NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE could do what is done in that video on CORE RULES, then WHY should I play on Nightmare??? The only reason I didn't do that on Nightmare is precisely because everyone would be like "no one would even try to do this" if I had. But I believe it's clear enough this guy has no idea what he's talking about. Anyone who has actually played this game at all will know right away that in the video that I posted, there was *minimal* preparation. Almost no group self-buffs, no summonings. Some steps could actually be skipped.

Originally Posted by Brent2410
5 minutes on setting up in a 5 minute 45 second boss

Clearly just a very, very lousy attempt to make his argument "legit". Probably didn't even bother to watch past the first minute. You issued a challenge, I answered it. That's better than anything you've done or have to show so far. Get the hell out of here.

Originally Posted by Goblin Lich
Do you really expect people, who already find it boring, to bother to get so familiar with the game that they can play it in such a manner?

See what I'm talking about? That was on Core Rules. Not even Nightmare. Although like I said, it wouldn't have made a difference. Nightmare simply doubles all the damage you take.

Originally Posted by Goblin Lich
try and twist and turn all arguments

I wasn't twisting or turning anything. You asked me "Do you really expect people, who already find it boring, to bother to get so familiar with the game that they can play it in such a manner?", and I simply pointed out that I answered just that, "No, I don't", in the post right above yours.

To Vometia (and maybe other mods): my sincere apologies. I try my best to keep things from getting out of hand.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 30/09/19 07:57 PM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Try2Handing] #655910
01/10/19 03:11 AM
01/10/19 03:11 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,658
The Frog & Hounds
vometia Offline

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vometia  Offline

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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
To Vometia (and maybe other mods): my sincere apologies. I try my best to keep things from getting out of hand.

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, and I know how it is when we feel strongly about a subject (btdt etc) but I think there's always a better communication of ideas and perspectives when focusing on the subject rather than one's "opponent". Plus I'm old and I get tired and grumpy!


J'aime le fromage.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Try2Handing] #655911
01/10/19 03:55 AM
01/10/19 03:55 AM
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Brent2410 Offline
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing

Originally Posted by Brent2410
5 minutes on setting up in a 5 minute 45 second boss

Clearly just a very, very lousy attempt to make his argument "legit". Probably didn't even bother to watch past the first minute. You issued a challenge, I answered it. That's better than anything you've done or have to show so far. Get the hell out of here.

I literally timed it... And didn't include any time that you weren't in control of your characters. Sorry objective fact isn't legit enough for you. If this doesn't showcase the fanboy gatekeeping, then nothing does. Thanks for proving my point while trying to argue against it though.

Edit: I was even generous enough to include the time you spent attacking something longer than you needed to during time stop into the "active combat" time... Thought it feels painfully similar to beating the dead horse of trying to get you to understand literally anyone's perspective beside your own.
Get the hell out of here?
Gladly.

Last edited by Brent2410; 01/10/19 04:03 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655917
01/10/19 07:48 AM
01/10/19 07:48 AM
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Sordak Offline
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my favorite video game is polishing door handles because if i tie both my hands behind my back and place an onion in my mouth, its a truly challenging expirience




and before someone calls this an ad hominem: let me reiterate the points at hand.
>People who dont like RTWP are lazy because they dont want to manage 6 characters at once
>actually you dont have to since its called real time WITH PAUSE
>But what if i place arbitrary restrictions on myself and not pause the game

And thats where it stops beeing an argument and goes off to clown world.
you cannot argue for the "virtue" of a system (and use that to dismiss adherants of another system) by proposing to not use the mechanic the system is designed for.
I might aswell say Fighting Game players have terrible reflexes because i play Dark Souls without dodge rolling and rely entierly on parrying.

Last edited by Sordak; 01/10/19 07:53 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655932
01/10/19 10:42 PM
01/10/19 10:42 PM
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Anuh Offline
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When "Torment: Tides of Numenera" was in development, i wrote on inXile forum about balance: If dialogues are shallow, combat system must be thoughtful and sophisticated. If game consisted huge amount of reading, that text must be counter-weighted by the fast combat system.

I tried to remind them: if you tighten the string too much, it will snap, if you leave it too slap, it won't play.

Almost all didn't take it seriously, someone thought that i am a troll.

Well, You can go and see the results; even hardcore RPG veterans admit that the game is a bit boring. On Steam few backers even wrote that combat system literally killed gameplay for them and it is easier to talk your character out of combat than to be engaged in one. Someone wrote, that it is more "interactive book" than an RPG.

One guy in that forum wrote to me, saying that T:ToN was designed as backers wanted. All right, what about all other folks, who can pay to developers much more, when the game is ready? If inXile had made the game more interesting to wider audience, they could raised more money to make better patches and maybe the addon.

Turn-based combat system now is some sort of a bad trend. That is not because many "indie" developers don't make enough efforts to calculate proper mechanics. They not lazy, quite the opposite. It because they just don't have money to hire additional programmers to make real-time combat system. In case of T:ToN limited budget was the real issue and they cut out too many good ideas. But Larian have all resources they need to make game mechanics well.

If Baldur's Gate 3 will have turn-base combat system, it won't be Baldur's Gate anymore. It will be Original Sin 3 - D&D Edition. Or, worse, Tides of Numenera. Or even worse: ToEE with fancy graphics.

Why ToEE has turn-based combat system and radial menu? "Troika" claimed that they want to make "true tabletop experience". The truth is much more simple. With turn-based combat they didn’t have to spend time adjusting the rules.

Don't get me wrong: Original Sin 3 - D&D Edition can be very good, considering how good was two previous games. I fear it just be less Baldur than it could be.

Make a decent triquel is often harder, than make something new. In case of Baldur's Gate 3 Larian should look back in order to move forward. I mean by that: good story, good dialogues, RTwP combat system similar to Infinity-engine era. Don't waste time to make online "achievements". Don't try to please SJW, feminists, and "PC principals", who will shout the loudest and never buy the game. Don't make any sort of lootboxes. And never ever, God forbid, flat minimalistic UI.

And another important thing: If BG3 will be driven by Unity Engine, native GNU/Linux version will be much appreciated. Windows 10 became much more mad this days.

Please, write what you think about all that.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Try2Handing] #655933
01/10/19 11:58 PM
01/10/19 11:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 108
Artagel Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
...you cannot argue for the "virtue" of a system (and use that to dismiss adherants of another system) by proposing to not use the mechanic the system is designed for....

Originally Posted by Brent2410
Everyone that's saying you can play the BG games in real time, if you have skill, gotta upload a vid of them beating Melissan on insane without cheesing rests or pausing...

Originally Posted by Try2Handing
This is to settle the question "Can it be done or not?". Just so there won't be any doubt about it...

How many times did he say he wasn't arguing for the "virtue" of the system?

Heh... my man not even trying to hide the bias...

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Anuh] #655934
02/10/19 12:02 AM
02/10/19 12:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 108
Artagel Offline
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Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Anuh
When "Torment: Tides of Numenera" was in development, i wrote on inXile forum about balance: If dialogues are shallow, combat system must be thoughtful and sophisticated. If game consisted huge amount of reading, that text must be counter-weighted by the fast combat system.

I tried to remind them: if you tighten the string too much, it will snap, if you leave it too slap, it won't play.

Almost all didn't take it seriously, someone thought that i am a troll.

Well, You can go and see the results; even hardcore RPG veterans admit that the game is a bit boring. On Steam few backers even wrote that combat system literally killed gameplay for them and it is easier to talk your character out of combat than to be engaged in one. Someone wrote, that it is more "interactive book" than an RPG.

One guy in that forum wrote to me, saying that T:ToN was designed as backers wanted. All right, what about all other folks, who can pay to developers much more, when the game is ready? If inXile had made the game more interesting to wider audience, they could raised more money to make better patches and maybe the addon.

Turn-based combat system now is some sort of a bad trend. That is not because many "indie" developers don't make enough efforts to calculate proper mechanics. They not lazy, quite the opposite. It because they just don't have money to hire additional programmers to make real-time combat system. In case of T:ToN limited budget was the real issue and they cut out too many good ideas. But Larian have all resources they need to make game mechanics well.

If Baldur's Gate 3 will have turn-base combat system, it won't be Baldur's Gate anymore. It will be Original Sin 3 - D&D Edition. Or, worse, Tides of Numenera. Or even worse: ToEE with fancy graphics.

Why ToEE has turn-based combat system and radial menu? "Troika" claimed that they want to make "true tabletop experience". The truth is much more simple. With turn-based combat they didn’t have to spend time adjusting the rules.

Don't get me wrong: Original Sin 3 - D&D Edition can be very good, considering how good was two previous games. I fear it just be less Baldur than it could be.

Make a decent triquel is often harder, than make something new. In case of Baldur's Gate 3 Larian should look back in order to move forward. I mean by that: good story, good dialogues, RTwP combat system similar to Infinity-engine era. Don't waste time to make online "achievements". Don't try to please SJW, feminists, and "PC principals", who will shout the loudest and never buy the game. Don't make any sort of lootboxes. And never ever, God forbid, flat minimalistic UI.

And another important thing: If BG3 will be driven by Unity Engine, native GNU/Linux version will be much appreciated. Windows 10 became much more mad this days.

Please, write what you think about all that.

Good post.

We'll see if Larian was wise in how they put those resources to use.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Anuh] #655937
02/10/19 01:36 AM
02/10/19 01:36 AM
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Goblin Lich Offline
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Originally Posted by Anuh

Turn-based combat system now is some sort of a bad trend. That is not because many "indie" developers don't make enough efforts to calculate proper mechanics. They not lazy, quite the opposite. It because they just don't have money to hire additional programmers to make real-time combat system. In case of T:ToN limited budget was the real issue and they cut out too many good ideas. But Larian have all resources they need to make game mechanics well.


Bad trend? What is this trend you are talking about?

T:ToN was one of the most successful kickstarters ever when it comes to games, with 4x the budget of Original Sin 1, and 2x the budget of Original Sin 2. T:ToN is just a bad game, the budget was not the problem. I highly doubt RTwP is a huge tax to the budget if any, compared to turnbased.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655942
02/10/19 08:32 AM
02/10/19 08:32 AM
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Sordak Offline
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First Turn Based was newfangled stuff, now turn based is supposedly lazyness because its ... cheaper? What?
Why on earth would RTWP be more expensie to make. i think the assumptions made about game design in order to push for your preferred playstyle are staggering.
And then every post comes up with some completley different convoluted reason why turn based is "bad".

The absolute ammount of seethe amazes me.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655946
02/10/19 11:09 AM
02/10/19 11:09 AM
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Anuh Offline
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Quote
T:ToN is just a bad game, the budget was not the problem.

It is not bad at all. It is worse than it could and should be. That was my point.

Quote
And then every post comes up with some completley different convoluted reason why turn based is "bad".

Turn-based fans make their assumptions, real-time fans - making theirs. There is nothing wrong with that. Some people want BG3 to have D:OS combat system. I found their argument unconvincing. By the way, think about what Wikipedia said about RTwP: ...It can also help players who desire extra time for analysis before issuing actions. Do you see? With RTwP you can take your time, your cup of coffee and think carefully before make the next move. It is not shooter mechanics in any way.

RTwP isn't real time system after all. It is modified turn-based. Throwing polyhedral dice and calculating the outcome based on class, abilities etc. - all those essential elements are still there! The difference is that calculations, that in tabletop game can lasts hours with pen and paper, computer makes immediately. Less primary school algebra, more Dragons!

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655947
02/10/19 11:19 AM
02/10/19 11:19 AM
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Sordak Offline
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i dont know what thats supposed to mean.
See, now we have both arguments saying "But RTWP is basically turn based see!?" and "RTWP is totaly action and management see?"

Realy RTWP is a system that came out of neccesity and it doesnt know what it wants to be.
Its a bad system.
And for the record, i dont believe its gonna be either Turn based or RTWP, and if itll be RTWP itll be Dragon Age 2 style RTWP rather than Baldurs Gate style.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655954
02/10/19 02:25 PM
02/10/19 02:25 PM
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Anuh Offline
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Originally Posted by Artagel
Good post. We'll see if Larian was wise in how they put those resources to use.

Thank you, good man. Hope is still lives in my heart.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Realy RTWP is a system that came out of neccesity and it doesnt know what it wants to be.

You are mistaken. RTwP system is not a person, not a moody girl. It is sub-program and mathematics.

Originally Posted by Sordak
...itll be Dragon Age 2 style RTWP rather than Baldurs Gate style.

How on earth did you came to that conclusion? DA series traces their roots from BG1 and BG2. Then was NWN, and then DA. Have you read the story of how DA2 was made, about EA swallowed Bioware and all that. EA gave to developers too litte time to finish the game and they had to made console versions also. In case of Larian studios that is not the issue.

You see, that was exactly the discussion we had on inXile forum. People were afraid, that after DA2 and DA3 T:ToN can became as fast as Quake. Too shallow for a proper RPG. So I think I understand you fears. It is my worst expectations also, just from a different point of view. BG3 can became too slow to read, too slow to fight, have too many of unimportant elements without real purpose. You understand? Also too much of one side, too little of the other.

And, come to think of that, nobody from the either side of the argument want to see BG3 fast, shallow and stupid. Nobody wants it to have "action-oriented gameplay" as DA2. Read this guy on the first page: http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=652997#Post652997

My friend, big BG fan, didn't create account here, and ask me on his behalf to write this: Baldur's Gate is and always was Baldur's Gate. It should stay that way. Otherwise it wouldn't be BG anymore.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655959
02/10/19 04:50 PM
02/10/19 04:50 PM
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Sordak Offline
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you dont understand my point about DA2
it was about the camera perspective, you convolute two arguments

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Sordak] #655965
02/10/19 08:42 PM
02/10/19 08:42 PM
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Anuh Offline
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Originally Posted by Sordak
you dont understand my point about DA2
it was about the camera perspective, you convolute two arguments


I have read you replies again and find nothing about camera perspectives at all. Sorry, I thought we are talking about combat system core mechanics, not camera angles. I even have read some of your posts back. Your discontent can be applied to Turn-based system as well. For example, "tedium of trash monsters" can happen in either type of combat. Just remember the ToEE battles.

Also you wrote: "if we get turn based, well have RTWP as an option to placate the fans." This statement is just dreams and from developer's perspective will look plain silly.

Again, i don't argue about particular qualities of TB of RTwP systems. I am talking about heritage of the whole series and achieving balanced gameplay.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Anuh] #655966
02/10/19 09:58 PM
02/10/19 09:58 PM
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Nobody_Special Offline
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Originally Posted by Anuh
Originally Posted by Artagel
Good post. We'll see if Larian was wise in how they put those resources to use.

Thank you, good man. Hope is still lives in my heart.


My friend, big BG fan, didn't create account here, and ask me on his behalf to write this: Baldur's Gate is and always was Baldur's Gate. It should stay that way. Otherwise it wouldn't be BG anymore.


So who are you really? Artagel?????

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655978
03/10/19 07:09 AM
03/10/19 07:09 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Sordak  Offline
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literaly getting too lazy to create his thirtieth sock puppet account with two posts, both of which are in this thread

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655980
03/10/19 09:58 AM
03/10/19 09:58 AM
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Anuh Offline
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Anuh  Offline
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Originally Posted by Nobody_Special
So who are you really? Artagel?????

I don't read all Artagel's posts. If he wrote something similar, that is OK. And yes, i have a friend who don't speak English at all.

Originally Posted by Sordak
literaly getting too lazy to create his thirtieth sock puppet account with two posts, both of which are in this thread

You were on topic in few first pages. Now you are busy of judging other people instead of having reasonable polite discussion.

It seems that this "raging debate" turned into regular bickering. It will be good to hear someone from developers team so this thread at least will have meaningful ending.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #655981
03/10/19 10:25 AM
03/10/19 10:25 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Sordak  Offline
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Im mereley observing a trend that people with very few posts make accounts to specifically post in this thread, having opinions very simmilar to other accounts with very few posts that specifically post in this thread.

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