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Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: qhristoff] #666467
15/04/20 08:00 PM
15/04/20 08:00 PM
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Eton, Berkshire, EU
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
c = computer RPG
a = action RPG
j = Japanese RPG

none of these are genres. they are formats. the genre is RPG.


Yep, for a long time it was just RPG, but people do like to categorize, and it's generally easier to go with the flow. For me, art style, presentation, rules/mechanics, control schemes and so on are individual discriminators on a game by game basis. If I like the package of choices made by developers, then I'll buy the game.

It's a shame that the quality of some games is increasingly compromised by the need for large financial return imposed on the dev teams.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666468
15/04/20 08:31 PM
15/04/20 08:31 PM
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in literature we use the term motif to describe what you're talking about.

For example, Steampunk is a motif of Cyberpunk which is a sub-genre of the Science Fiction genre.

In a similar vein, you could describe Baldur's Gate (1/2/ToB) as sprite-based isometric (motif) computer (sub-genre) role-playing games (genre). You could add a format, such as RTwP or TB to that description as well, just like you could add "novel" or "short story" format to the literary example above.

"Baldur's Gate is a sprite-based isometric real-time with pause computer role-playing game."

"Baldur's Gate 3 is a third-person turn-based computer role-playing game."

"Dragon Age: Inquisition is a third-person action-oriented console role-playing game."

Last edited by qhristoff; 15/04/20 08:34 PM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: qhristoff] #666479
16/04/20 04:34 AM
16/04/20 04:34 AM
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The Frog & Hounds
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
c = computer RPG
a = action RPG
j = Japanese RPG

none of these are genres. they are formats. the genre is RPG.

This, pretty much.

Sometimes I worry that the subdivisions might get as bad as it is in metal where it sometimes seems there are more genres than bands.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: vometia] #666485
16/04/20 08:10 AM
16/04/20 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by qhristoff
c = computer RPG
a = action RPG
j = Japanese RPG

none of these are genres. they are formats. the genre is RPG.

This, pretty much.

Sometimes I worry that the subdivisions might get as bad as it is in metal where it sometimes seems there are more genres than bands.


I disagree, even though specifiers are not important to a person who is not into the genre, they can be very useful shorthands for describing things. Wow, diablo, bg, dos, ff are all rpgs, but they are all distinct subgenres with their own tropes, themes etc. If someone says a game is "souls like" or "4x strategy" it conveys a lot of information very efficiently.

Last edited by TadasGa; 16/04/20 08:10 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666487
16/04/20 10:46 AM
16/04/20 10:46 AM
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the problem with CRPG is that it doesnt have a proper definition.

does it need to be based on DnD?
Then what about Dragon age?
deos it need to be party basd? then what about Neverwnter Nights
Does it need to be isometric? Then again dragon age after 1
Does it need to be RTWP? Then what about ToEE?

Most people know what a CRPG is when you tell em the word CRPG, but saying what ISNT a CRPG is pretty tough.

Is Shadowrun returns a CRPG? Is dragon age inqusition a CRPG?
if not why so? are the goldbox games CRGPs? What about wizardry?

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666489
16/04/20 12:41 PM
16/04/20 12:41 PM
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For me the key letter is the C. An RPG that's clearly designed for computer. Often isometric, but does not have to be. Often text heavy (full voice overs or no), but does not have to be. Designed for keyboard & mouse + PC monitor.

DnD, party based and TB/RTwP just trends within the subgenre.

I know Pillars, DOS etc get console ports. But that's precisely the point, they're ports. PC is the main platform for these titles.

Dragon Age Inquisition is very obviously a game designed for multi-platform. Perhaps even geared more towards console, than PC. Terrible UI made with consoles in mind, pc version releasing lacking basic things like a run/walk toggle (got patched in quick) that's obviously not necessary on console. Inquisition's definetly not a CRPG, even though it does have party gameplay, RTwP, etc. In Inquisitions case, these things are more like a legacy from Bioware's previous work, which were CRPG's.

That's just my take on it laugh

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666493
16/04/20 02:10 PM
16/04/20 02:10 PM
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My 2 cents: I will also classify an RPG as CRPG if they do not railroad you, pointing everything in the quests as if you do not have more than 2 functioning neurons.
You know what I meant, those games with a big arrow telling you what to do all the time.



Quote
-Big arrow pointing the big device near the bridge that has a hole the size of a gear- "Take a look at the device"

(It´s like 4 ft tall and there isn´t any other interactable object in the room, but ok)

"Find the gear to lower the bridge" -Arrow points to the exit-

(Wow, Didn´t expect that. Color me shocked... not)

"Use the doorknob to open the door" -Big arrow pointing the doorknob, just in case you do have little to no prior experience opening complicated devices like doors by yourself-

(Big sigh)

-Arrow pointing a screaming big tattooed guy drenched in blood that charges wielding a big chainsaw while shouting death threats- "Defend yourself"

(Really?)

"kill the zombie minions"

(I was just thinking into engaging in a deep, meaningful conversation so I could find common points to see to the negotiated settlement of conflicts before they could lead to violence, and reach to their humanity to find the intrinsic cause of their uncontrolled rage; until they tried to rip my throat, but thanks again for your input)

-Arrow points to the stairs- "Go up the stairs"

(Silly me, I almost go down upstairs, or jump through the window, thanks for the advice)

"Take the gear" -Big, bright arrow pointing the gear for good measure, in the event that your vocabulary does not include complicated words like "gear"-

(Why I´m playing this, again?)

"Use the gear"- Big, bright arrow pointing a hole in the shape of the gear, also the only interactable object in the entire room, to remind you why did you need the gear, on the off chance that you suffered an episode of amnesia or some kind of brain damage while doing this quest. -

(Frack this, time to reinstall Disco Elysium again
)

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Emrikol] #666494
16/04/20 03:01 PM
16/04/20 03:01 PM
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Salem, MA, USA
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Originally Posted by Emrikol
By your definition of "true" cRPG, would you consider a cRPG not a true RPG?

And why can't a "true" cRPG break more than 2 million sales?


As has been pointed out, c just means computer, so cRPG and RPG are essentially synonymous. I just used the word "true" to signify a classic, old-school, single-player, isometric, party-based cRPG in which story, character development, branching dialog, deep quests, meaningful choices leading to meaningful consequences, etc. are the core of the game and combat is only a small part of the game. If you don't like the word "true", by all means feel free to come up with some other term. I just grow tired of constantly having to write out my definition of what I mean and so was just using a shorthand.

As for the sales ceiling, it is my conclusion based on what I perceive the market to be for the type of game I've described above. The only cRPGs that have broken that ceiling have all been action RPGs (ARPGs) (don't know about JRPGs because I don't follow those) - for example games like Skyrim, Witcher 3, and yes even DA:I which has sold well above 2 million.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666497
16/04/20 05:38 PM
16/04/20 05:38 PM
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cRPG does have a proper definition.

Is it an RPG made for computer gaming?

Then it is cRPG.

It isn't rocket science, it isn't binomial nomenclature or chemistry.

"c"omputer "R"ole "P"laying "G"ame. It was a differentiation from jRPG that were popular on consoles.

cRPG became synonymous with isometric party based adventures with western cultured fantasy.
jRPG became synonymous with isometric hero based adventures with east asian cultured fantasy.

any further differentiation is just postulation and preference. those were the ONLY two designations until cRPG nerds couldn't agree that both Diablo and Baldur's Gate were RPGs, which is where the aRPG came from to describe Diablo.

Last edited by qhristoff; 16/04/20 05:41 PM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #666701
21/04/20 02:02 AM
21/04/20 02:02 AM
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So table top (like critical role...the TV series) slows the combat portion of the game way down, while social interaction and buying your groceries happens normally.

A single round is 6 seconds and I have seen a single round take quite a long time to be completed in an online Fantasy Grounds session. This is where it becomes a strategy game. Now in real life, I can describe what went through my mind when the engine of the aircraft I was flying dropped to 1500 rpms...do I land straight ahead on the fairly vacant 4 lane highway or do I return to the runway I just took off from...I do have some power. Partial power was the key and I returned to the runway safely.

A lot of thinking went into the decision, yet it was made in a split second as my aircraft turned and was committed to a plan. So in that sense, turn based play captures something that other games don't (there are just not enough controls and hot keys for me to do what my reflexes want to do in a real time simulation) at least ones with complex builds.

In addition, by slowing the situation down, it gives the group time to think strategically...which while not realistic, can be very engaging.

It is for certain very different and not for everyone, but absolutely fits the balancing that has been done to the 5e rule set. Its more like a chess game really. A lot of the fun can be in learning the rules to make the character you want to build work. There are plenty of Twitch channels to see Fantasy Grounds sessions first hand (the practical side).

Now the story and the combat are two separate issues. I would say this is the neutral ground no matter what combat you prefer.

P.S. If you liked Skyrim for real time, you can check out this free mod on steam. It is a total conversion of the game (not even the same landmass, history, and races).
It features fully voiced acting and an engaging story that many people consider miles ahead of Bethesda's Main story. The mod includes everything to make it visually modern...no long mod lists. Steam workshop has good mods for it too. A clean install of oldrim and subscribe to the free mod does the trick.

Enderal...one mod to rule them all

Last edited by Van'tal; 21/04/20 02:18 AM.
Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: etonbears] #666712
21/04/20 09:03 AM
21/04/20 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by etonbears

That really illustrates my point - that not enough attention is paid by developers to how players interact with their games. I completely agree that most AI sucks. The best I can remember is DA:O, which allowed you to define detailed rules for each companion's behaviour, and had a very good UI for defining rules, as well as trivially prioritising rules and turning them on/off. But that was very much an exception, and probably represents the apogee of Bioware's design in this regard.
...
Players who express a strong preference for TB seem ( on the whole ) to stress a desire to direct all activities in detail. While such micro-management is possible in a typical RTwP game, in most it is undoubtedly clunky to do so, and therefore frustrating.

Conversely, those that express a strong preference for RTwP seem ( on the whole ) to stress a desire for fluidity without detailed management. While it is possible for a typical TB game to automate control, most do not do so, also leading to frustration.

DA1&2 had such a great system with tactics! They were there as an intelligent default over which you had control, you set them up and then didn't have to think about them anymore, but you could always pause and interrupt a tactic in order to do whatever you wanted or needed in a given specific situation. I loved that so much.

I'm still torn on TB versus RTwP in a sense. TB is surely more D&D-friendly (though not so much the party-based initiative.) It's pretty much exactly the way D&D does it in, fact. RTwP, though... it's how the series always did things before, so it's less D&D-faithful but MORE BG-faithful! That's a rough dilemma already.

RTwP feels more dramatic, but it also gives me MORE control. You have control over every fraction of a second rather than, as has been mentioned, being thrown out of combat and then desperately fighting to drag your people out of the poison or the fire or whatever so they don't die. Same situation, but with RTwP--you can pause, direct person 1 to the left, 2 to the right, 3 to the middle, 4 in the opposite direction... you can coordinate. You aren't left scrambling and panicking to avoid people needing to be resurrected.

I find in DOS2 I frequently see something happening that I did NOT want to do, but all I can do is watch helplessly as someone climbs up or down a ladder, wasting their ENTIRE turn, instead of stopping where I wanted them to stop. Incredibly frustrating. I'm not a micro-manager, that is true, but I still prefer more control than the game gives me over what my party is doing when it actually matters. RTwP gives one more leeway, it's more forgiving of misclicks, it's a layer of protection against "OH GOD NO I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THAT" after which the entire fight is lost because the game and I disagreed on what I was trying to do.

Even non-combat related things such as accidentally directing an uncharismatic party member to talk to an NPC can be avoided with pausing. I guess a pause feature is pretty desirable in any case for that reason.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: Wynne] #666714
21/04/20 10:08 AM
21/04/20 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Wynne
I find in DOS2 I frequently see something happening that I did NOT want to do, but all I can do is watch helplessly...

Right clicking will cancel the remainder of the action/movement, if possible, if you misclick in combat.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #667032
04/05/20 12:49 PM
04/05/20 12:49 PM
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I haven't read anything here to be honest..
I do aggree with making it real time / slash pause turn based

but mostly so because I really loved and still love dragon age: origins and BG1 and 2

none the less, my main point is actually that I hope they change UI, to something more darker, as balders gate, so it doesn't feel like I am playing divinity:os 3, so that it feels as if I am playing Baldurs Gate 3

and yeh I haven't found the topic to add that.. haha.. Am a little drunk too smile

(to devs etc)
I love you Larian, keep up the good work! I'm not easily charmed actually, but if you keep up doing these great games I will become enslaved smile

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #667068
05/05/20 07:01 AM
05/05/20 07:01 AM
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This is directed more towards Larian than to anyone here.

Baldur's Gate was the very first game that truly made me feel like I'm experiencing a different world, yes yes, I was young and new experiences do take a hold. But it was also the game that introduced the forgotten realms, the books, drizzt, elminster, etc. Baldur's gate 2 to me was, and still is, a masterpiece. Irenicus will always be one of the best voiced villains. And I thought that was it, the story ended there. It was a fitting end to the series though, not that I'm complaining. Did I expect a Baldur's gate 3? Not really, did I hope for one? yes I did.

I've never really given much thought to the combat back then, it is how it is, or so I thought. Fast forward to 2019, when I first heard about BG3, to say I was super excited was an understatement. I just thought, Larian's got some reputation as a company making good RPG games, so this should be good. But mind you, I've never really got into DOS because of one thing, turn based combat. However, I thought, they still got a good track record, and it being BG3, I was sure they'll stick to how it was like the previous two titles. How wrong I was..

I've never really been one to post on forums, or comment on anything on any platform. But I was mad, and I've never been mad at a company even after they release shitshow titles or greedy DLCs. I always thought I'll just 'vote' with my money, if I don't like it, I won't buy it. I'm mad because this game, doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Baldur's Gate series except it being called Baldur's Gate. Yes I know, it's 2020. evolution of gaming, and many other reasons etc. Yes its set in the Forgotten Realms, but that's about it I guess. Baldur's Gate 3 has lost its soul, the gameplay is different, the combat is different, the view is different. I'd be much more enthusiastic to give it a go if Larian called this game 'This side of Cormyr'. I've never played DOS2, so when I saw the gameplay trailer, it just looked like an updated Dragon Age with clunky combat to me.

But enough of that.

The main gripe I have is the combat, which is why we're all here in this raging debate.
I read through most of the responses, and honestly there's nothing wrong on either side. We all have our preferences to how combat should be done. Some want it as close as possible to how tabletop PnP dungeon crawling is to them(forgive me if I worded that wrong). Like I said, nothing wrong with that.

But I don't like it on a PC game. It spoils the realism of combat, the immersion. Turn base combat to me is, I'll hit you, and then it's your turn to hit me, then it's your friend's turn to hit me, etc. That doesn't really happen in a real fight, I don't see boxers taking turns to hit each other. This style is like watching football and people are taking turns to pass, tackle, shoot, score. It doesn't work, for me. Turn base has no flow of combat, no matter how much my friend convinces me that it's tactical, I'm unable to get round it(I've played turn based games before mind you). It can also be tactical in a RTWP setup, why must it be turn based? There are just some game mechanics that spoil the whole game for me, Witcher 1's combat comes to mind as an example.

It is incredibly unfortunate that this is going to be turn based. I wasn't holding my breath for BG3. Then I got so hyped for it, then I got so crushed about it.

Yea you can say I'm living on nostalgia, but this is the series that got me into gaming, I've replayed it countless times, no matter how many PC's I've change, how many times I've reformatted them. Baldur's gate series is always installed and ready to go.
Words can't truly express the disappointment I have. Worse still, whatever I'm saying now is totally pointless because it's been decided long ago, and who am I to make them change how they want to create this.
I write this with profound sadness and disappointment that the game I cherish has completely morphed into something else that I do not recognise.
IF I do get this game(after steam sale), it will only be because of the setting. Just to see where it's gonna take me in the Forgotten Realms.

Shame.exe

PS. Some of you are prob gonna nitpick on what I say, break it all down and explain to me why I'm wrong. Yea you do that, but like I said, this is my opinion on how Larian is creating BG and how I like to play my RPGs. If you like turn base, that's you. Simple as that. Not being snarky or condescending with that.
But this isn't BG3 to me. This is a whole new game with new systems in place masquerading as BG3 to entice the nostalgia in people.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #667121
07/05/20 07:34 PM
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After revisiting BG1 and BG2 I realized how much I prefer TB. The combat in RTWP didn't feel right constantly pausing the game to cast spell or do an action. When I originally played BG1 and BG 2 it didn't bother me but now I couldn't finish the game again cause I hated how RTWP felt. Plus if they ever have a Dungeon Master mode turned base would be the best choice to recreate the PnP experience in a game setting. Both teams roll an initiative to see who attacks first and each team takes a turn just like the PnP version.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #667145
08/05/20 03:47 PM
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Video games are not PnP games. If "recreating the PnP experience" is what this game is about, then it should be advertised as a PnP simulator because calling it a video game is false advertising.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: kanisatha] #667146
08/05/20 04:08 PM
08/05/20 04:08 PM
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Emrikol Offline
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Video games are not PnP games. If "recreating the PnP experience" is what this game is about, then it should be advertised as a PnP simulator because calling it a video game is false advertising.

You are correct in that video games are not PnP games. But that doesn't add much to the conversation. To call BG3 a 'PnP simulator' wouldn't be accurate either. Maybe a video game version of PnP? A video game seeking to recreate the PnP experience? No matter how you look at it, it's a video game. But there is nothing about "video game" that is necessarily, or even remotely, at odds with turn based play.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: kanisatha] #667155
09/05/20 01:57 AM
09/05/20 01:57 AM
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SorcererVictor Online content
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Video games are not PnP games. If "recreating the PnP experience" is what this game is about, then it should be advertised as a PnP simulator because calling it a video game is false advertising.


Say that to ToEE. The most faithful D&D adaptation ever.

D&D products can vary from ToEE faithfulness to sword coast legend complete disregard to P&P rules,

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: SorcererVictor] #667191
10/05/20 03:13 PM
10/05/20 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Video games are not PnP games. If "recreating the PnP experience" is what this game is about, then it should be advertised as a PnP simulator because calling it a video game is false advertising.

You are correct in that video games are not PnP games. But that doesn't add much to the conversation.

It does when some is looking to equate the experience of playing a video game to playing a PnP game.

Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Video games are not PnP games. If "recreating the PnP experience" is what this game is about, then it should be advertised as a PnP simulator because calling it a video game is false advertising.


Say that to ToEE. The most faithful D&D adaptation ever.

D&D products can vary from ToEE faithfulness to sword coast legend complete disregard to P&P rules,

You are conflating 'recreating the PnP rules' with 'recreating the PnP experience.' These are two very different things.

Re: ragin debate: active pause vs turn per turn [Re: fireflame] #667197
10/05/20 07:12 PM
10/05/20 07:12 PM
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Sordak Offline
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well no.
ToEE was still the closest to the PnP rules.
just flat out.

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