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This is not about Turn based VS RTWP #653352
26/06/19 12:39 PM
26/06/19 12:39 PM
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Frenzy-kun Offline OP
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I has been reading a lot of threads about this subject but I see that most of them are staying in the surface, debating about who likes what. I want to bring some insight into the debate.

I like Baldur's Gate. I love it, in fact. I like it as it is, with it's values and it's mistakes. It's a game that made me love this genre and there is no other game that, for me, ever surpassed the second part. You can imagine how excited I was when I saw the announcement.

Now I am reading a lot of people, fans of larian but not necessarily of Baldur's Gate wanting to change Baldur's Gate to their tastes. Would that still be Baldur's gate?. It would be a different game, one that I might like or not, but certainly not the game that made me come here.

Each game has different gameplay aesthetics and each player has their own liking about those aesthetics. All game aesthetics' combination (including different gradients of it) are completely valid, but they appeal to different player profiles. Turn based and Real Time with Pause are completely valid game mechanics but they offer different game aesthetics. You may like one of those, both, none, or prefer one over the other. Maybe you don't even care because you are here because of the narrative aesthetics or the fantasy ones. And that's OK and it is perfectly understandable. But, even if they are both RPG mechanics, they differ in the core aesthetics delivered by their respective games and they appeal differently to different players.

Here we have something else above this choice of target. We have a brand. The Baldur's Gate brand. The players who loved those games are players whose tastes are in synch with the game aesthetics provided by the original game. You may like the game but not like all what the game has to offer, but then, certainly you won't enjoy that game as much as other players who does would. And because of this, changing the system poses a very big problem: in order to attract other people to the new game (in this case, the lovers of DOS), they are going to sacrifice mechanics and aesthetics that are what the most engaged fans of the original games love. And that's not good at all.

I has been playing video games for three decades and I seen many, many brands. And when this happens, the brand goes for worse. I am not talking about the game itself: I am certain Larian can create a masterpiece no matter what. But the brand becomes broken: the fanbase is split in two, fans fight with each other and no matter what the devs do in the future, it will never please anyone anymore. And that's the logical consequence: the two parts of the fanbase loved it for different reasons, usually not compatible between themselves because one excludes the other. I saw that in brands that are legends in the videogame market: sonic the hedgehog, resident evil, final fantasy and the list goes on. On the contrary, for brands that are faithful to their roots, they keep on bringing out games and the fanbase is there on every iteration to make the purchase. Look at how pokemon sells millions no matter what they do as long as they respect their core.

So, TLDR; if Larian uses the brand of Baldur's Gate they should stick to it's roots and keep the core game design as the fans loved it. Else, they should just create any other brand, even if it's based in the forgotten realms universe, as Black Isle did with Neverwinter Nights. But please, don't split the fanbase.


Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653356
26/06/19 02:01 PM
26/06/19 02:01 PM
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Yeah what bothers me most about these debates (including in other forums) is the very obvious attempt by people who are hardcore fans of Larian and the D:OS games to demand that this game be just like D:OS2, because I guess every RPG ever made from now on must be just like D:OS2.

As someone who hates TB, I would still be willing to hold my nose and live with a crappy TB combat system just because I am a hardcore fan of the original BG games. What I won't accept is this game essentially being a D:OS2 remake. And yes, borrowing everything from D:OS2 except for one thing (third person instead of isometric, for example) does NOT qualify as this game being different from D:OS2.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653357
26/06/19 02:08 PM
26/06/19 02:08 PM
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This is a good point.

EDIT: I'm just going to make a new thread, instead of posting this here.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 26/06/19 02:11 PM.

"We make our choices and take what comes and the rest is void."
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653362
26/06/19 03:47 PM
26/06/19 03:47 PM
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So its not about RTWP but its about RTWP.
Anyone who doesnt like RTWP is NOT A TRUE FAN right?
So what else is part of baldurs gate.

What about the Isometric camera, Sven hinted at it not beeing there anymore. Is that not a BG game then?
What about the ruleset? Is it still baldurs gate if its no longer 2E? Because WOTC made them make it 5E.
What about 2D graphics. Are you sure that a full 3D enviroment will still constitue a Baldurs gate game?
What about the Characters. Will it truly be a Baldurs gate game without the player beeing the Bhaalspawn?

What constitues a baldurs gate game my dude?
Because to me, it looks like you demand a sequal to be identical to its predecessor.
Well, Beamdog has tried to do that and WOTC denied them.
I admit not beeing the biggest Baldurs Gate fan because when i was the age most people played BG i played Might and Magic and wizardry and i only played Infinity Engine games when i was already well versed in RPGs, so theres no nostalgia value there for me.

But if a company would lets say make a Wizardry 9, and theyd change aroudn the gameplay for the better i wouldnt complain about that.
In fact, im realy Happy that legend of grimrock wasnt Might and Magic 6.

I understand that this annoys your nostalgic sensibilities, but i think theres soemthing genuinly to be gained from this game beeing different.
and WOTC obviously thinks so too.
I think Its about the vision of Baldurs Gate and not about the exact details.
A sense of grand adventure that takes a long time to complete, a metaplot and exploration, a large cast of characters and a lot of different build options.

And just another little thing: You seem to think that all Larian fans are just Original Sin-aboos. You probably werent around when OS1 was announced, but there were a lot of Larian fans unhappy that it wasnt a continuation of Divinity 2, and that it wasnt a Real time game like Divine Divinity and Divinity 2.

EDIT: And seriously, a copy of OS2.
You people ever played any larian games? Every second game they make is compleltey unrelated to the previous one. OS2 is the only larian game that i can think of that is even REMOTELEY simmilar to its predecessor, and even there plenty of OS1 fans seprged out that OS2 ruined the game.
The only thing im pretty sure about this game is that its not gonna be a clone of any other game.

Last edited by Sordak; 26/06/19 03:48 PM.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Sordak] #653364
26/06/19 04:08 PM
26/06/19 04:08 PM
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Frenzy-kun Offline OP
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[quote=Sordak]...
[/quote]

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I played many of the Larian games, and in fact, I am a backer of DOS:2. It seems it's important for your context.

What I wanted to say is that it is not about RTWP vs TB, it's about you are having a brand and you have to respect it. As I think I stated several times, I have nothing against TB, but I do against tainting a powerful brand to turn it into something else.

Just, to skip the questions about what are the core pillars of Baldur's gate, something that I am not sure it belongs to this thread and if you are really interested, we can discuss it in the proper thread, just imagine that in 4 years, the public demands RTWP games due to a succesful hit somewhere else and Larian decides to make DOS:3 a RTWP game. How would you feel? Wouldn't you feel that they'd rather use a different license? Would you really accept that the core gameplay changed? I don't know since I am not you, but try to imagine and you will see the root of the message I am trying to convey.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653368
26/06/19 05:53 PM
26/06/19 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Frenzy-kun
I has been reading a lot of threads about this subject but I see that most of them are staying in the surface, debating about who likes what. I want to bring some insight into the debate.

I like Baldur's Gate. I love it, in fact. I like it as it is, with it's values and it's mistakes. It's a game that made me love this genre and there is no other game that, for me, ever surpassed the second part. You can imagine how excited I was when I saw the announcement.

Now I am reading a lot of people, fans of larian but not necessarily of Baldur's Gate wanting to change Baldur's Gate to their tastes. Would that still be Baldur's gate?. It would be a different game, one that I might like or not, but certainly not the game that made me come here.

Each game has different gameplay aesthetics and each player has their own liking about those aesthetics. All game aesthetics' combination (including different gradients of it) are completely valid, but they appeal to different player profiles. Turn based and Real Time with Pause are completely valid game mechanics but they offer different game aesthetics. You may like one of those, both, none, or prefer one over the other. Maybe you don't even care because you are here because of the narrative aesthetics or the fantasy ones. And that's OK and it is perfectly understandable. But, even if they are both RPG mechanics, they differ in the core aesthetics delivered by their respective games and they appeal differently to different players.

Here we have something else above this choice of target. We have a brand. The Baldur's Gate brand. The players who loved those games are players whose tastes are in synch with the game aesthetics provided by the original game. You may like the game but not like all what the game has to offer, but then, certainly you won't enjoy that game as much as other players who does would. And because of this, changing the system poses a very big problem: in order to attract other people to the new game (in this case, the lovers of DOS), they are going to sacrifice mechanics and aesthetics that are what the most engaged fans of the original games love. And that's not good at all.

I has been playing video games for three decades and I seen many, many brands. And when this happens, the brand goes for worse. I am not talking about the game itself: I am certain Larian can create a masterpiece no matter what. But the brand becomes broken: the fanbase is split in two, fans fight with each other and no matter what the devs do in the future, it will never please anyone anymore. And that's the logical consequence: the two parts of the fanbase loved it for different reasons, usually not compatible between themselves because one excludes the other. I saw that in brands that are legends in the videogame market: sonic the hedgehog, resident evil, final fantasy and the list goes on. On the contrary, for brands that are faithful to their roots, they keep on bringing out games and the fanbase is there on every iteration to make the purchase. Look at how pokemon sells millions no matter what they do as long as they respect their core.

So, TLDR; if Larian uses the brand of Baldur's Gate they should stick to it's roots and keep the core game design as the fans loved it. Else, they should just create any other brand, even if it's based in the forgotten realms universe, as Black Isle did with Neverwinter Nights. But please, don't split the fanbase.



This is what i think.. Impostors claiming themselves as a fan of Need for Speed in a new announced Need for Speed X game. Then said driving suxs and the game is best played like a Flight simulator and it should now be able to be fly like a plane. And they also claim what makes Need for Speed memorable is not because of it's driving but because of the world, the people, the story.

These fake impostors are really so funny.. I think i should do the same when DOS3 get announce?. I would tell Larian that what makes DOS great was not the Turn-Based but the world, the characters, the story were what made Original Sins great and therefore it should be played like a first person shooter aka Overwatch ane keep whining and arguing with the core fans why TB suxs and it should be played as a shooting game. Now how is that?

Last edited by Archaven; 26/06/19 05:55 PM.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653378
26/06/19 08:56 PM
26/06/19 08:56 PM
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Frenzy-Kun you realize i dont even think its gonna be turn based right?
Im gonna play it one way or another unless it looks realy bad. Im starved for good CRPGs, and id especialy like somehting simmilar to NWN in terms of peresistant servers.
i prfer Turn based personally, but i also play RTWP games.
What i dont want is to cling to an old ass engine and its pitfalls.
because if you say RTWP isnt part of Baldurs gate, you might aswell say other innovations like the enviromental interacitons dont belong to baldurs gate.

In which point youd be right, it doesnt, but its better.
Which is where im getting at, this game should be an evolution and not nostalgia bait. the market is saturated with crappy nostalgia bait games.
the market is saturated with nostalgia bait games and im sick of it.
the only good nostalgia bait game i can think of in recent years is DOOM, almost everyhting else fell flat on its arse.

And Archaven you look like youve got some massive persecution complex.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653382
27/06/19 04:07 AM
27/06/19 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Frenzy-kun
I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I played many of the Larian games, and in fact, I am a backer of DOS:2. It seems it's important for your context.

What I wanted to say is that it is not about RTWP vs TB, it's about you are having a brand and you have to respect it. As I think I stated several times, I have nothing against TB, but I do against tainting a powerful brand to turn it into something else.

Just, to skip the questions about what are the core pillars of Baldur's gate, something that I am not sure it belongs to this thread and if you are really interested, we can discuss it in the proper thread, just imagine that in 4 years, the public demands RTWP games due to a succesful hit somewhere else and Larian decides to make DOS:3 a RTWP game. How would you feel? Wouldn't you feel that they'd rather use a different license? Would you really accept that the core gameplay changed? I don't know since I am not you, but try to imagine and you will see the root of the message I am trying to convey.

Also a backer of the DOS games and not especially a fan of turn-based either, fwiw: my first Divinity game was Divinity 2 which was real-time third-person, which I preferred even if I did die rather a lot in its original incarnation. Anyway, TB is what we got and I like the games well enough other than that, so I guess it's not going to kill me to simply expect whatever I get from BG. Admittedly I haven't played the original but as with the Divinity series, things can evolve for all sorts of reasons (or sometimes they don't, which also annoys people) and I guess we can either rail against it or adapt and enjoy it.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Sordak] #653401
27/06/19 02:23 PM
27/06/19 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
Frenzy-Kun you realize i dont even think its gonna be turn based right?
...
And Archaven you look like youve got some massive persecution complex.


it seems you like to attack people who have different opinions than you. i think you may be the one having mental issues. seriously dude you may not realize it, you best go check it out. to be honest, even if the game turned out full turn-based with 4 party characters i'll still play the game. but i'm just reminding larian that this baldur's gate and not original sins 3. on the other hand, you sound like you didn't really play earlier baldur's gate game at all and if this turns out to be true to the original baldur's gate with RTwP, i see you possibly just abandon posting here.. and all you want is just making baldur's gate 3 turn-based for your own agenda just like the game is made for you. and this will probably be my last message to you. as i'm here not to argue with you or anyone. it will just be time wasting and pointless for me.

Last edited by Archaven; 27/06/19 02:27 PM.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653405
27/06/19 03:57 PM
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well and it seems like you see some big conspiracy everywhere.
But thanks for doubting my mental health, that sure makes you sound like the reasonable one here.

And as said, you are projecting, i already said im gonna buy the game regardless of its combat system.
Meanwhile you see "Fake fans" and "People who didnt play the game" everywhere.
and go attack everyone that doubts your defeatist, doom and gloom attitude.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653428
28/06/19 12:36 PM
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Quit sniping, guys. In particular, don't use "mental issues" or "persecution complex" as an insult otherwise grumpy mod will get very grumpy indeed.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653464
30/06/19 11:16 PM
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If Bg finally is TB (I do not think that is going to happen anyway) I do not think that was the end of the franchise. Most franchises evolved with time: FF from TB-Rpg to Action RPG to Soap-Opera PG(no R here); Fallout from CRPG to a shooter... Every time people said It would be the end of the franchise, and the world didn´t stop.

I played Pillars of eternity 2, first in RTwP, then in TB, and I have to say that I enjoyed most that game in TB, even if I frowned at TB at first. I realized that most of the time I just buffed my characters, cast several spells, point the objectives and just sit and stare while the IA end the battle. You do not have that luxury in TB.

Even If I said that, If you ask me I would prefer my BG game in RTwP, but a DoS game with D&D 5e rules does not sound bad to me either.

The BG series is not only RTwP combat, It was also D&D, and a party-based game, and a fantasy well-written story, and memorable companions, and tactical battles against powerful adversaries, and varied subquests with interesting plots, and silly and funny references, and dungeons full of monsters and loot...

Larian really have their work cut for them.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653555
03/07/19 09:23 AM
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in my point of view Fallout is the best example. It was an Turnbased, isometiric, non-openworld Game and turned into a 1st/3rd Person, shooter openworld and it got success - especially on the console -, but for me as the old Fallout guy it was feeling not right and the core of the game was gone forever. Thanks to Wasteland2 and can kind of get back the Original Feeling.

I totally agree to Frenzy-kun, it will brake up the fan base, but with regards to Fallout that does not mean it will not have Success!

So Larian, what will you do now?

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653566
03/07/19 04:11 PM
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heres one of the most annoying things in the current games industry.
Because sequals like fallout or oblivion were "dumbed down" from the previous iteration, people now, ironically, are afraid of innovation.

Let me tell you something, Fallout was dumbed down for the EXACT same reason you are giving here. fear, fear that the fanbase might reject it.
An isometric game? In this time? no way, it HAS to be a shooter.
Same with Divine Divinity. A Turn based RPG? In the west? no it has to be like diablo (not that divine divinity is bad)

Its not about the game beeing dumbed down. Right now you go a "non RTWP Baldurs gate game? Heresy!"
Its the exact same reason thsoe "dumbed down" games exist. Conservativism and fear of innovatin.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653572
03/07/19 06:10 PM
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Non TB Larian game? Heresy! Conservatism! Fear of innovation!

HAHAHA. What a joke.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: kanisatha] #653582
04/07/19 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Non TB Larian game? Heresy! Conservatism! Fear of innovation!

HAHAHA. What a joke.


That's the problem with Larian basically. Both their DOS games were successful and they most likely conclude the success were due to Turn-Based system. I owned both DOS games and I bought the game because it's RPG and not TB.

I hope I'm proven wrong but I think Larian most likely just playing safe. It's gonna to be DOS2 clone.
More and more interviews I read is all pointing to that. They aren't brave to change anything else or than Turn-Based. Most of their games weren't successful or a big hit. And they were all real time.

Last edited by Archaven; 04/07/19 05:25 AM.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653584
04/07/19 08:05 AM
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I can see why there might be a temptation to think that TB was the reason: after all, the DOS games were huge hits and a section of the gaming community was (and still is, to some extent) extremely vocal about it all being due to turn-based because harking back to The Golden Age Of Video Games™ etc and so on. They sold because they were good, and speaking personally, in spite of them being turn-based rather than because of it. Which is as subjective an opinion as anyone's, in addition to not being any better at any other form of combat nor tactics, but I play RPGs to, well, role-play rather than it just being about fighting and strategy.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653585
04/07/19 09:00 AM
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Quit misrepresenting me.
Ive said numerous times im 80% convinced its going to be Dragons Dogma like Action Combat, so what are you even on about.
Also, only 2 of larians games have been turn based. Three were real time and one was an RTS.


The OS games were turn based because they wanted to make a turn based game.
Its not like Sven doesnt mention, at every turn, that they originally wanted to make Divine Divintiy turn based but developers didnt let them.
Their previous games werent well received because they werent self published and almost always lacked the required time.

You are just looking for reasons to be upset.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: vometia] #653593
04/07/19 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by vometia
I can see why there might be a temptation to think that TB was the reason: after all, the DOS games were huge hits and a section of the gaming community was (and still is, to some extent) extremely vocal about it all being due to turn-based because harking back to The Golden Age Of Video Games™ etc and so on. They sold because they were good, and speaking personally, in spite of them being turn-based rather than because of it. Which is as subjective an opinion as anyone's, in addition to not being any better at any other form of combat nor tactics, but I play RPGs to, well, role-play rather than it just being about fighting and strategy.

I agree with this and have been saying this myself. I'm quite convinced the most important (though obviously not only) reason for the sales figures of D:OS2 is co-op play and DM mode. But, again as you say as well, fans of TB combat are extremely loud, aggressive and in your face in terms of pushing their preference over others' preferences and selfishly demanding on every forum that every single game should be TB. So that's why the debates end up becoming focused on whether the combat system will be TB.

Re: This is not about Turn based VS RTWP [Re: Frenzy-kun] #653594
04/07/19 01:41 PM
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I suspect it's one of those things where there is no single, obvious reason why they were such a success but it was more a balance of probably quite numerous different factors that between them appealed to a broad cross-section of gamers; and managed to get it right in that the stuff that appealed to people generally comprised a more significant factor than the bits that put people off.

It makes me think of a sort antithesis of the infamous marketing of the Vauxhall Vectra, a boring '90s car that nobody remembers for good reason: they spent so much time thinking of ways in which it wouldn't offend anybody that its real offensiveness is that it had no personality. I'd hazard a guess that the appeal of DOS is that it wasn't afraid to have its own personality but had enough discretion to keep the various expressions thereof at a sensible level. And sure, it really irritated a lot of the purists who thought it didn't go far enough with one thing and another, but they seemed to get it right.

Personally I'd like to see the classic Larian humour ramped up again in future releases: it was dialled down quite a lot in DOS2 to cater for the "i r srs gmr" types and I didn't care for that sort of thing, but I guess the point is they kept it within reasonable limits. So I may have lost some of the more ludicrous bits of silliness and just random stuff like doing a handstand as the final part of climbing a ladder, but we still got the outrageous Brummie accented knight referring to us as "yow" as often as possible and the sneaking barrels, the latter of which really upset some people. But not enough to not play.


J'aime le fromage.
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