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If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g #656256
16/10/19 10:30 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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If SCL(sword coast legends) = 0 and ToEE(Temple of elemental evil) = 10, how much pnp like this game will gonna be?

About missing, leveling and spells. I mean, after i have heard that "missing obvious not work", something that is obvious untrue. You miss a lot in D&D adaptations, from Pool of Radiance(1988) to NWN2(2008 - last decent D&D adaptation) and even Pathfinder adaptations like PF:KM. But Vincke din't said anything else in this regard. Can be anything from optional -3AC for your party and enemies to a completely rewrite of melee combat.

Then i saw "spell slots are not intuitive", well, casts / rest is vastly used an IMO is one of the best systems. For immersion, for balance and for gameplay. Even pokemon, uses a similar system to casts per rest, you can only have 5 fire blasts / rest. And managed to please a broad spectrum, from casual children to try hard tournament competitive players. Dark Souls uses casts / rest too. After i heard his critique towards spell slots, i was fearing that the game will have a mmoish cooldown based combat.

We all know that the most faithful D&D adaptation is ToEE and SCL is the least faithful. They removed almost everything from D&D, no skill checks, no saves, no misses but cooldowns and artificially inflated hp. I know that this game will not be faithful as ToEE but expect something more faithful than SCL.

They criticized the leveling. By being "too slow( http://nuclearcoffee.org/dungeons-and-dragons-leveling-system-is-too-slow-for-baldurs-gate-3/ ) And honestly, leveling is one of the best aspects of D&D. One level matters, one level is one step closer to the "godhood", high level characters are very powerful and the original IE games like IWD even put your character next level as "godhood" once you reach lv cap.

[Linked Image]

I have fear about changing PnP rules because all cases of changes over PnP rules resulsted in a worst gaming experience. Examples? NWN1. Pale masters, by being limited to one summoned creature and not receiving +CL, they are useless. Other example? Warlocks on NWN2. Without warlock reworked mod that makes the class more pnp-like, the class is completely garbage. The unique adaptations that i see no problem, are the optional ones, like the dragon disciple class on BG:EE, that doesn't exist on base game. Those who doesn't like can not use the class.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656326
19/10/19 07:20 PM
19/10/19 07:20 PM
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Closer to EE, but with 5e rules, the so close to 5e they get is unknown till we find out more info.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656328
19/10/19 08:40 PM
19/10/19 08:40 PM
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I hope for a 6 or 7.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656337
20/10/19 01:33 AM
20/10/19 01:33 AM
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I think it could go as high as 8 or 9, but mot 10

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656338
20/10/19 02:21 AM
20/10/19 02:21 AM
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im thinking between 4 or 6.
Its hard to make guesses now, but if theres no missing, they probably move away from dice rolling , and then they move away from one of the core mechanics.
Which doesnt actually bother me that much.
Also 5E is a system thats very modular and i think emulating it as is doesnt play to the strenghts of either 5e (which is beeing very easy to learn and very simple and non frustrating to run) or CRPGs (beeing able to do all the annoying rolls and calculations under the hood and not have it take forever)

my guess is a good 6. The classes and class features are all gonna be there, the spells will work like they do in the game and magic items will also work like in dnd , but the way the gameplay works will be different.

For some clarity, id say the neverwinter MMO would be a 3, neverwinter nights 1 a 7, 2 an 8 maybe.

Last edited by Sordak; 20/10/19 02:23 AM.
Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656339
20/10/19 09:45 AM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Sordak. Depends what they will do with missing. I mean, a option to -X AC for players and enemy is one thing. A complete re write of rules is another completely different thing. But i disagree with you about NWN1/2. I mean, NWN2 with spell fixes, warlock reworked, etc is more pnp-like than 1, but vanilla nwn2 is less pnp like than nwn1. And NWN1 with PRC implements reagents for spells and fixes classes like Pale Master that are useless on base game. So i would classify :

NWN1 + PRC = 9.5/10
NWN2 + spell fixes + warlock reworked + etc = 9/10
NWN1 without mods = 7.5/10
NWN2 without mods = 7/10
DDO = 5;5/10
Neverwinter Online = 1.5/10

I don't understand that much 2e rules but IMO BG1/2 are 8/10(maybe i an wrong)

BG3, depends a lot about what they will do. If is a SCL complete rewrite of rules will be at best 2/10, if is a option to give -AC and few optional buffs to classes that are awful on 5e like Rangers, then it can be 9/10 but i don't expect a 5e ToEE.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 20/10/19 09:46 AM.
Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656345
21/10/19 08:27 AM
21/10/19 08:27 AM
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That's a good point. I hope Larian is smart about how much modding will be possible with this new engine.

Something a majority of fans will want, IMO. Obviously there shouldn't be as much need for them as the previous games in the series, but people will still have preferences in certain areas.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656346
21/10/19 11:19 AM
21/10/19 11:19 AM
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Sordak Offline
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modding seems to have been a possibility but not neccesarily easy with the original sin games, even tho they wanted to push it quite abit.
WIht BG3, its harder. WOTC is involved so who knows what their stand on modding will be, the GW based games notoriously have that problem. (doesnt stop people fro m modding dawn of war 1 heavily)

I think the issue with modding will be that the scene just isnt that strong anymore.
I mean, what games other than Skyrim and Fallout get these realy big mod projects going?

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656347
21/10/19 11:23 AM
21/10/19 11:23 AM
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DOS2 does. 2 years in the making 8)

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656348
21/10/19 01:27 PM
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The Bethsoft games have a really huge and very well-established modding community. I'd say if anything their modding would be actually quite a bit more difficult than it is with the Original Sins without the community in question as so much stuff had to be figured out with very little information and a lot of tools created to make the modding system actually functional. To a certain degree there are parallels, such as with Norbyte's extractor and converter which is pretty much essential, but it seems that the Larian games are more "moddable" from the get-go.

That said, I haven't done very much other than outfits, and I admit to being somewhat perplexed by the Divinity Engine. But it was a lot easier than modding Divinity II which was... well, it was a challenge, put it that way.


J'aime le fromage.
Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656349
21/10/19 02:50 PM
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Sordak Offline
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well i dont know much about coding, but i guess in terms of asset development and landscaping, i imagine BG3 to be at least as difficult, skyrim is afterall an 8 year old game and BG3 looks like its gonna have a bigger budget than OS

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656361
22/10/19 10:53 PM
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Oh, I think the modding scene is as big as it's ever been.

And I'm not talking about "realy big mod projects", like the total overhauls and such. I just mean the multitude of smaller, basic mods. Like Ease of Use stuff, visuals (any triple A game like this will have HUGE visual modding interest), and considering it's a new D&D version, a ton of little rules mods, as many people will likely be longing for "how things used to be", at least in terms of minor details of the engine.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656368
23/10/19 08:24 AM
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Sordak Offline
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idk, i just learned from this thread that aperently divinity has one piece of content modding.

But compared to NWN1? or even NWN2? It seems like modding is concentrated on the "Big" modding games like skyirm and fallout, either that or games that rae realy easy to mod like Rimworld

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656377
23/10/19 08:56 PM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Modding in bethesda games is mostly due their engine and creation kit. And note that NWN1/2 has a big modding community too.

About D&D, only for me that Vincke saying things about missing, leveling, spell slots, etc remembers me a lot of JAy Wilson with Diablo? Is like "diablo is a amazing game, except on everything" and he said many awful things on GDC, the 13m to 16m in nutshell can be "i found barbarian play boring on D2, so i made every class like barbarian" and on 37:20, he saying that character is disposable,

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656378
23/10/19 09:10 PM
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Sordak Offline
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im not realy seeing the connection here.
Sven didnt say anything about spell slots IIRC, and as for leveling i think the argument was that in DnD you level very slowly and he wants more progression?
I mean this is a concern, a lot of people playing RPGs dont get itemization in DnD.
I get people at level 1 asking a shopkeeper for a better armor.

dude you got plate armor, thats the best there is unless you enchant it

Still, the thing about missing isnt malicious, i just think the combat system will be a strong deviation from traditionalist systems that try to emulate dice rolling

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656388
24/10/19 09:33 PM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Sordak, he mentioned spell slots " Mearls admits. “You [indicating Vincke] have talked about how spell slots might not be the most intuitive thing" https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dungeons-and-dragons-6th-edition

And i see a lot of similarities. Jay Wilson discourse sounds like "Diablo 2 was a good game, except by character progression, itemization, combat, resistances, immunities an everything else" is no different than "Baldur's Gate 1/2 was a amazing game, except by missing, spell slots, leveling and everything else"

Keep in mind that even Diablo 1 and Might & Magic used Armor Class system.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656395
25/10/19 06:12 AM
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Sordak Offline
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Ok. Armor class is not a "system"; its a term.
elderscrolls also used the term but it didnt work the same way.
Diablo 1 has been a while forme, but i dont recall attacks beeing hit or miss based on armor class.

as for spell slots, well yeah, spell slots ultimatley are a pitfall of DnD, AEDU is a MUCH better syste than spellslots, but it was discotinued because nostalgia laden grogs sperged about it.
Still, its dnd, so it might aswell have vancian casting, i personally think cooldowns downt work either.
DnD needs a specific system to gate access to spells.
That beeing said, resting is a big problem of CRPGs, it already is a problem on the gaming table i can tell you that for a fact, and in a video game, its even harder to implement without the players able to cheese it.

Anyway, for what its worth , diablo 2is all those things, primarily, i wouldnt say that baldurs gate hangs on its 2e inspired system.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: Sordak] #656398
25/10/19 02:20 PM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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Sordak, Diablo 1/2 had this hit miss, 2 had defense ratting(chance to being hit) and the more video gamish defense ( https://diablo.fandom.com/wiki/Defense )

AEDU was awful. Why? Because while Vancian magic system was based in literature and evolved with metamagic and spontaneous casting, AEDU was based on MMORPG's and made everything ultra homogenized.

"As far as I know, 4th edition was the first set of rules to look to videogames for inspiration. I wasn’t involved in the initial design meetings for the game, but I believe that MMOs played a role in how the game was shaped. I think there was a feeling that D&D needed to move into the MMO space as quickly as possible and that creating a set of MMO-conversion friendly rules would help hasten that." source https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8309

And 4e failed exactly because no one will take the effort to create/join groups, manage schedule, prepare a campaign, to have exactly the same experience that any wow-clone mmo can offer. WoWfication is a cancer, after WoW, every mmo started to be a same rotation cooldown managing gear farming simulator and mmos like Ultima Online become forgotten. After destroying the mmo market, the wowfication started to destroy SP RPG's, and even tried to destroy tabletop games. Luckly, Pathfinder saved the tabletop market. If wasen't by Pathfinder surpassing D&D, we would never have 5e. WotC will stuck with their pnp wow clone.

Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656399
25/10/19 04:24 PM
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AEDU is a better system, period, AEDU did not come from MMORPGs and it plays nothing like MMORPGs.
MMORPGs have cooldowns, thy have no abilities that you need to rest for and they have no abilities you can only use once per encounter.
What you are saying is blatantly wrong and its the same drivel that keeps getting parroted with no thought put into it

Meanwhile Vancian casting is a vestigal part of DnD.
I dont care if it was in literature, it was in non tolkien fantasy literature, and im not talking howard or moorcock either, so what kind of appeal to authority is that supposed to be? thats like saying cock and ball torture is high culture because ive read about it on Literotica
THe "MMO" parts are about having clear and consice rules.
You know what? They work.
One of the things 5E struggles with is the way fighters work. Thats why they made the cavaleer who has a mark. Having a dedicated defender is a good thing and somehting DnD lacked.
Turns out, that a genre thats focused almost entierly on combat, tends to invent a thing or two about combat.

4E failed because Grognards didnt like the way it was presented and believe false information like what you are spreading.
Also gross mismanagement of Hasbro, and the failure of the online system.
It was way too ambitious, the developer of the online system that they banked on killed himself and especialy the system was not compatible with 3.5, meaning that people couldnt keep playing their old characters.

YOu tink 4E is WoWification? Look at 5E, look at how shallow it is. thats where THIS line of thinking has gotten us.
More casualization, less complexity, less player options less class customization, less class balance and just less GAME.
Keep watching critical role and roll that d20 for full attack every round.

If theres one thing that makes me angry its this spitefull hatred for trying to improve a game held down by genre conventions.
I mean, the entire comparison of ultima online and WoW.
Did you even play UO? or Everquest?
For one, these games are primitive.

Do you understand why WoW killed MMORPGs? It has nothing to do with its combat system.
It has everything to do with its Quest design.
The Theme park killed MMOs, not the Holy Trinity. Everquest had that, Acherons call had that, Dark Age of Camelot had that, Istaria had that if you wann go UO style sandboxes, Shadowbane had even more roles than that.

Neither when it comes to DnD nor when it coems to MMORPGs you are correct, instead you start throwing around buzzwords while defending a system going into the exactly wrong direction, thats held up exclusiveley by a the cultural shift that is Nerd Chique, take away critical role and it all crumbles.

and you know what ill be doing?
Playing DnD with my friends, with some good ol AEDU

Last edited by Sordak; 25/10/19 04:25 PM.
Re: If SCL = 0 and ToEE = 10, how much pnp like this g [Re: SorcererVictor] #656400
25/10/19 05:21 PM
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SorcererVictor Offline OP
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AEDU is awful system. Limits the progression, homogenizes the classes, AS for mmos having cooldowns, UO had no cooldown and Mu Online too. Mu Legends in other hands, is a wow clone,

As for spell slots being inspired by literature, see TV tropes, they mention TONS of novels with it https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic

Not all fantastic literature should be based on Tolkien, D&D took inspiration on Tolkien but also took inspiration on many other things and i posted a interview with 4e devs talking about how 4e is inspired by mmos.

As for 5e being shallow, i agree that 5e is not perfect. The game is too rigged in favor of PCs, the mechanics are too dumbed down, but by other hands, they reduced the high level power creep and made easier and funnier to DM.

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