Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General BG3, DOS and the D&D rule-set

That isn’t what I said. I said the core that defined a BG game and differentiated it from many other RPGs was how faithfully it interpreted D&D mechanics.

I didn’t say any of those things don’t matter. Though in the first BG, there are very few choices to make role playing wise, the story is quite straight forward, and there is almost no character development, so I guess by your own definition we have to declare Baldur’s Gate 1 is not an RPG?

There's plenty of both story and character development in BG1. The choices you make about how you will react to being a bhalspawn happen pretty early in BG1. And to the extent that character development is limited in the original games (both of them), it is entirely because 2e rules were very limiting. So no. I completely and totally reject the notion that the original BG games were all about faithfully interpreting D&D rules. They both deviated from 2e D&D rules often, and if anything *that* is what makes them so D&D. The FIRST rule of D&D (in every edition) is that the rules are yours to do with as you please. Use them; don't use them; change them; create your own. This is what D&D itself encourages the players to do. That is the very essence of D&D: the rules are not written in stone, and you the player can play the game however you want to play it. So the very notion of "faithfully interpreting D&D mechanics" is both un-D&D and un-RPG.

D&D ruleset only affects combat and how you interact with the world, which rarely affects lore and RP; but could make RP easier allowing free space to RP and interact with the world and many other things. The devs of 5e stated that the latter was one of their objectives.

And by that I use the definition of D&D as the "fantasy tabletop game system"
Usually, the worlds where you played, like The Forgotten realms, Eberron, Ravnika, Wyldemount, Greyhawk, etc are referred as "settings", (because you use the D&D ruleset for all those worlds and many more that are based in D&D SRD like Star wars5e, Witcher 5e, etc)
Maybe it´s a misunderstanding about the meaning of the term D&D applied to videogames and you meant what other people call "Forgotten realms" setting to be applied to a videogame (I.e a game taking place in Baldurs gate, Neverwinter, Icewind dale with iconic characters and places of the world)?

Maybe not a misunderstanding so much as talking different things and talking past one another. For some people, their focus is on it being a "D&D game" which means the D&D rules and mechanics. For others, the focus is that it is a "Baldur's Gate game" which means the city of Baldur's Gate and/or the story's continuation from BG1 and 2. And for still others, the focus is that it is a "roleplaying game" where the essence of roleplaying - storytelling and character development - are what matter. That's why I liked that far-too-brief discussion we had in another thread in this subforum about rank-ordering what this games means to each of us. And the very different rank-orderings really said a LOT.

On 90s and earlier 00s, sure. NWN1 outsold ToEE by a huge margin BUT on modern days, the most popular over the top CRPG is DOS2. Kingmaker and Deadfire aren't popular as dos2 and kingmaker will receive a turn based mode, deadfire got a turn based mode. And even PFWoTR will get a alternative TB mode.

And honestly, the game is too late on the development. Even if everyone wanna RtWP, it will NOT change.

🤣 I mean: COME ON! Final Fantasy7 has so little to do with wester RPGs it's irrelevant to the discussion. Also it didn't sell so well because it's combat system. It sold so well because it's a bloody Final Fantasy 7 Remake.

FF 7 is nothing like BG. FF1 classic was turn based and sold well. Why not copy all every aspect of FF? Instead of creating your character, you will have to play as a androgynous teenager with a oversized sword. No race/class/alingment choice, you can only play with male 13 yo human fighter specialized on "ridiculous unpractical sword". Also, keep in mind that the console market is completely different than PC market. There are just no in depth RPG for consoles.

Just see the classic CRPG's that got ports to SNES. Ultima 7 Trash on SNES with a lot of missing stuff and censored story and amazing masterpiece on PC. Eye of The Beholder? Unplayable with a controller. Even Diablo 1, the most streamlined 90s PC RPG on P$1 was a shore.

As for "dream numbers for Larian", you are completely wrong. DOS 2 is always on top most purchased games on STEAM. And on Switch where Japanese games dominate, DOS2 still doing well.

JRPG's aren't real RPG's. And Real time is used on this games because they are action games. About fallout, fallout 1/2 are turn based.

And look to Larian games. Divine Divinity is a hidden gen and DOS2 is sold pretty well. I prefer DD(no cooldown and stat stickie gear) but jrpg's aren't a good example.

imagine a D&D session with Final Fantasy logic

- DM : Player, here is your character sheet

- Player : But Master, i have already made my character sheet. I wanna make a half elf warlock, chaotic neutral who got expelled from magic academy due racism against elves in Thay and he found a powerful ice demon and pledged apprenticeship in exch...

-DM : No, you will gonna play with this androgynous 13 years old fighter, and you can only chose oversized unpractical sword as specialization, your alignment is lawful good and that is it.

- Player : But i like to play as a magic caster. Can i at least use javelins? A pike? Or a longbow? I actually enjoy a lot longbows IRL and practice archery.

- DM : No, you will play with this character sheet and will follow exactly this strict path, with no checks and zero mechanical and narrative character decision making. You will only do decisions on combat and the combat mechanics will have no relation to the world lore!!! I an only DMing because i failed as a writer and you will play as the most generic anime protagonist or leave.

- Player : fine, i will search another group, if you don't wanna me in your group, you could have said earlier

Some posts have gone away. A friendly reminder, if you want to discuss RT/TBwP (or what is wrong with that abbreviation) then use the pinned topic.

edit : I missunderstood what I read.

for computer RPG games, I have a practical reference to measure a great storytelling game (again I will mention Planescape Torment)

Because this was the first game, if I remember well (1999, before BG2 was released) where I chose not to min/max a Warrior for combat.

I played as dual class, Fighter->Mage, and I started with low Strength on purpose.

Once I understood that game was about story and the characters (I was never upset that the characters´stories were all pre-made),
I deliberately chose to improve mental stats. Why? Because the producers of that game restricted the best story answers and dialogues for higher mental stats. And I wanted my experience to
focus on the story. Of course, towards the second half of the game you become very strong as a Mage, you meet 2-3 tanks to fight for you, and I think you even find some magical item for Strength.

overall... DOS 2 was a cooler, evolved combat experience, whereas Planescape was a cooler storytelling experience. I enjoyed both indeed.

as for inducing changes in gameplay...DOS 2 induced some changes too: recognizing the value of Persuasion, of elements combination, terrain/ barrels for combat, and of course teleportation.
3 had self-teleportation, except the protagonist, and 3 could teleport others...haha.
(if my group was a british rock band, it would certainly be called "The Teleporters")

The amount of BG 1 and 2 butthurts are hilarious.
Just be glad and play this amazing game, embrace the future, or dont, and stop qqing.

This

Generally if the games “OF THE FUTURE!” are not fun, then I don’t embrace them. Verdict on BG3 is still to come out - mostly because it is not out.

I thought complaining is kinda the point of the forums, no? Vocal minority and all expressing their discontent.

as much as im a proponent of the changes made.
I cannot go with this sentiment.

No, the whiners are not always wrong.
Sometimes complaints have merit.

Sometimes they are right, but especialy they are never "wrong" because "its the future".
Whenever someone says theyre on the right side of history i assume theyre in the wrong.

I doubt this 7 days to get the tadpole out is going to be the entire game. I'm sure there will be a lot more story after that, so maybe there will be a more solid connection to BG1/2 rather than just references. Maybe the events of the earlier games are somehow responsible for this illithid uprising? I'm not saying this will be the case, but we don't actually know much of the story so I don't think we can say it has absolutely nothing to do with BG1/2 yet.

Also BG2 was pretty good at closing up the story line so I'm not sure what a true BG3 could do that wouldn't seem cheesy or anything.

Sequel or not, you always have a better chance of enjoying a new game if you don't approach it with a list of features it must and must not have, but a willingness to experience it on its own terms.. Whether BG 3 will feel like a "real" BG game is likely to depend largely on what appealed to you in the originals--and that clearly varies from person to person.

This close to early access it seems to me to make the most sense to wait until you've actually played the game before making broad pronouncements about what it is and isn't--and to remind ourselves that "The Truth"on the subject of BG3 vs. DOS3 will inevitably be a personal one.

That's a bit disingenuous, when a game is being sold as a "sequel" - in other words sellling the game to the audience, because they already liked previous games in the series. Wanting a benefit that comes with using an existing IP and yet dodging expectations that come with it, does sound like a very one-sided deal. I think it is one thing to thrust expectations on someone else (like: you made such games before and I expect you to make the same game over and over again), another is willingly taking on an existing IP.

If Larian wouldn't welcome comparisons to BG1&2, they shouldn't have taken the IP - new Larian game in DnD setting is fine in itself.

I´ve never read any comments from any source of Larian censoring any kind of criticism. As far as I know, they welcome the input, specially in EA.

Devs are usually above the usual fan wars in forums and media.

It is also disingenuous to claim that the only way a person can comment on the game is by first playing the game. That's very convenient. Even if I end up hating the game, Larian gets my money, and also gets to count me as a "fan" in their sales numbers.