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What I get a kick of is how vehemently some try to delineate that 2e and 5e are different games, despite the fact that they are both still D&D; one just happens to have more "patches" than the other.

Last edited by qhristoff; 09/08/20 08:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
What I get a kick of is how vehemently some try to delineate that 2e and 5e are different games, despite the fact that they are both still D&D; one just happens to have more "patches" than the other.

The game being 5e doesn't bother me. I accept that it is very reasonable for WotC to insist that all new D&D games use the current D&D rules-set. It's a logical business decision.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
What I get a kick of is how vehemently some try to delineate that 2e and 5e are different games, despite the fact that they are both still D&D; one just happens to have more "patches" than the other.


Yeah, I'm sure there are differences, but it isn't important in a videogame as you just have to acclimatise to what has actually been implemented. I couldn't even tell you which versions of TT were used in each DnD videogame, and I think some games have updated their TT version over time.

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BG and BG2 were 2e, as was IWD. IWD2 was 3e, as was NWN. ToEE was 3.5, as is the upcoming Realms Beyond. BG3 and Solasta are the first games using 5e.

Last edited by qhristoff; 10/08/20 09:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
BG and BG2 were 2e, as was IWD. IWD2 was 3e, as was NWN. ToEE was 3.5, as is the upcoming Realms Beyond. BG3 and Solasta are the first games using 5e.

You forgot NwN2, also 3.5e.

Realms Beyond and Solasta use the D20 SRD but do NOT use D&D settings or lore. So for me they're not *true* D&D games.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by qhristoff
BG and BG2 were 2e, as was IWD. IWD2 was 3e, as was NWN. ToEE was 3.5, as is the upcoming Realms Beyond. BG3 and Solasta are the first games using 5e.

You forgot NwN2, also 3.5e.

Realms Beyond and Solasta use the D20 SRD but do NOT use D&D settings or lore. So for me they're not *true* D&D games.

Would you say that about any D&D game that doesn't use an officially licensed setting? like .. 80% of games and campaigns made by players for their own tables?

And no, I didn't forget NwN2. But we all ought to.

Last edited by qhristoff; 11/08/20 05:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by kanisatha

This is it exactly, at least for me. Everything else about the game could have been exactly the same as it is today, but just with a title that had nothing to do with the original BG games. Heck, it could even have had the words 'BG' in the title, something like 'BG: The New Generation,' or whatever, and that would've clearly signaled this was a new franchise that was not part of the old BG franchise.

The irony for me is that had this game not gone the route of using the BG3 title (or in any way being a sequel to the old BG games), I would be quite open to this game and even be interested in playing it. Yes of course I would still have the same criticisms I have of the game right now, but the big difference being that I would not be anywhere near as passionate about it and could dispassionately just accept the game for what it is, namely a new D&D 5e RPG that is not quite to my liking but as a D&D fan I'll go ahead and give it a shot. Something like how I approached SCL, or am currently approaching Solasta and Realms Beyond. But the moment the game took on the BG3 title, along with all the implications of being a sequel to BG1 & 2, my expectations of the game fundamentally and radically changed.


Interesting. I wonder where these high expectations come from?

Usually when I hear there’s a new sequel (or worse a reboot) of a franchise I enjoyed coming out, I assume it will be shite. Hollywood has certainly lived up to my low expectations, although with games it’s a bit more of a mixed bag. Resident Evil 2 remake was pretty good for example.

I’m generally more likely to be hopeful about a new IP though.

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Originally Posted by qhristoff

And no, I didn't forget NwN2. But we all ought to.

Just to play it again, you mean?

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I still played NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer recently, and it aged well. Still as amazing story as always.


I wonder if the tadpole "Force persuade" powers you get and the continuous references about "a price to pay" when you use those powers would be related to something akin to the mechanics of the "Spirit hunger" of MOTB. You get powers, but you can lose yourself in the hunger.

Last edited by _Vic_; 11/08/20 02:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
I wonder if the tadpole "Force persuade" powers you get and the continuous references about "a price to pay" when you use those powers would be related to something akin to the mechanics of the "Spirit hunger" of MOTB. You get powers, but you can lose yourself in the hunger.

That more or less vibe I was getting, though difficult to say without knowing more mechanically wise (and if it continues throughout the entire adventure as I suspect, we might not even see it in EA).

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Originally Posted by qhristoff
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by qhristoff
BG and BG2 were 2e, as was IWD. IWD2 was 3e, as was NWN. ToEE was 3.5, as is the upcoming Realms Beyond. BG3 and Solasta are the first games using 5e.

You forgot NwN2, also 3.5e.

Realms Beyond and Solasta use the D20 SRD but do NOT use D&D settings or lore. So for me they're not *true* D&D games.

Would you say that about any D&D game that doesn't use an officially licensed setting? like .. 80% of games and campaigns made by players for their own tables?

And no, I didn't forget NwN2. But we all ought to.

No, a "homebrew" TT D&D game is still a D&D game. But (a) for me personally, and (b) in a VIDEO game (I don't have much interest in TT gaming anymore), I play the game much more so for the setting and the lore and much less so for the game mechanics. I think for all of us, whether we consciously think of it or not, it is the setting of a cRPG that is the starting point, the foundation for whether we end up liking the game or not. I have said in previous posts that my dislike of D:OS begins with my utter dislike of the Rivellon setting, and that is what--I feel--then cascades down into dislike of a bunch of other things about the game. This is not a putdown of Larian. These things are entirely subjective. There are a LOT of people out there who absolutely hate the Forgotten Realms setting. I however, absolutely love that setting. So the very reason for me to play a D&D videogame is NOT for the D&D mechanics or rules (which btw I actually dislike; I find the D20 system to be archaic and stupid) but rather for the game being set in the Forgotten Realms and involving a bunch of FR lore (being that I'm an FR lore junkie smile ).

As for NwN2, I guess we will politely agree to disagree. For me, NwN1 sucks, whereas NwN2 is the best D&D game after the BG games.

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Originally Posted by Dagless
Originally Posted by kanisatha

This is it exactly, at least for me. Everything else about the game could have been exactly the same as it is today, but just with a title that had nothing to do with the original BG games. Heck, it could even have had the words 'BG' in the title, something like 'BG: The New Generation,' or whatever, and that would've clearly signaled this was a new franchise that was not part of the old BG franchise.

The irony for me is that had this game not gone the route of using the BG3 title (or in any way being a sequel to the old BG games), I would be quite open to this game and even be interested in playing it. Yes of course I would still have the same criticisms I have of the game right now, but the big difference being that I would not be anywhere near as passionate about it and could dispassionately just accept the game for what it is, namely a new D&D 5e RPG that is not quite to my liking but as a D&D fan I'll go ahead and give it a shot. Something like how I approached SCL, or am currently approaching Solasta and Realms Beyond. But the moment the game took on the BG3 title, along with all the implications of being a sequel to BG1 & 2, my expectations of the game fundamentally and radically changed.


Interesting. I wonder where these high expectations come from?

Usually when I hear there’s a new sequel (or worse a reboot) of a franchise I enjoyed coming out, I assume it will be shite. Hollywood has certainly lived up to my low expectations, although with games it’s a bit more of a mixed bag. Resident Evil 2 remake was pretty good for example.

I’m generally more likely to be hopeful about a new IP though.

In general, it's a mixed bag with me: BG1 over 2; IwD2 over 1; NwN2 over 1; PoE 1 & 2 break even (1 has better story and atmosphere, 2 has better mechanics including esp. multiclassing); DA:O over DA:I. And yes, I also agree that usually I strongly prefer a new IP over a sequel.

But the BG videogame franchise, for me personally, falls into its own completely separate category. Here's something about this whole issue I posted in another forum that may help you understand:

I grew up in an Asian developing country in the '70s and '80s where there was never even a question of owning a computer. I came to the US to go to college as an international student in 1986, and that's when I first began playing computer games, although only on my friends' computers. This was primarily wargames, like Harpoon for example. No cRPGs. On to very many years of grad school thereafter, but still couldn't afford my own computer. Then in 1998, a close grad school friend bought BG as soon as it came out. I house-sat for him and his wife when they went home for the holidays, and I started playing this new game on his computer just out of curiosity. I started playing around 7 pm, and the next time I checked the clock it was 6 am!! I was so hooked, drawn-in and fascinated by this game, and knew I had to have my own copy. So, even though I was still quite poor, and living entirely off of my research assistant stipend, I scrounged every penny until I could afford one of those cheap E-Machines computers and my own copy of BG.

BG was my first cRPG, and the first videogame I ever owned. It is what made me into a hardcore cRPG fan. So the BG franchise just has a very special place in me.


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Originally Posted by qhristoff


And no, I didn't forget NwN2. But we all ought to.


Why? I think it had really good writing and story, and very good character/party interaction. Gameplay was good/ok

Last edited by Gt27mustang; 11/08/20 06:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gt27mustang
Originally Posted by qhristoff


And no, I didn't forget NwN2. But we all ought to.


Why? I think it had really good writing and story, and very good character/party interaction. Gameplay was good/ok

My opinion on NWN is that it didnt age as well as BG simply because of the 3D graphics. There isnt much you can "enhance" in either NWN game because of it. It does have a charm to it though and even though I dont remember much (atleast from midgame/late) from the story I would like to recall that I was properly engaged with the antagonist(s).

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Maybe I´m wrong, but I think that only applies to the first NWN game. NWN2 uses the Aurora engine, same as the first Witcher game. wink

Still look as good as always.

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The Witcher 1 used RedEngine, which was the NWN Aurora Engine with a completely re-wriitten renderer. NWN2 used an evolved Aurora Engine, which Obsidian called the Electron Engine.

I would actually say the NWN1/2 engines are much more capable of enhancement than BG1/2, because they were specifically designed for creating additional content, modules, persistent worlds and new story modules.

Beamdog seem to have a roadmap to update NWN1 ( for which they have the rights ), such that old content continues to work, while enabling new content of much higher graphical quality. They have even published a document describing the data formats they will use and rendering techniques they wish to enable.

The old content also benefits wherever possible from updated rendering code; for example, a new lighting model that they have recently been previewing in news feeds ( not sure when the updated code will actually appear ).

There is also a DLC/game for NWN:EE written by Silverstring Media/Phantom Compass called "Dark Dreams of the Furiae", a Planescape story coinciding with the events of Descent into Avernus.

I haven't played it myself, so I can't vouch for it, but it shows there is still some life in the old NWN engines.






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Originally Posted by Torque

My opinion on NWN is that it didnt age as well as BG simply because of the 3D graphics.

No argument here from me. Whatever "custom content" benefits NWN1/2 engines had, I felt they were poorly suited for crafting compelling main campaigns.

Still, campaign itself is solid. Reasonably well paced, and while story isn't terribly exciting, companions are enjoyable and it had some really creative and influencial bits. MotB expansion is just good.

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I kinda liked the SoZ campaign too, not for the story, I mean, the entire campaign is a big sandbox so that evidently that wasn´t a priority, but I the way you made your entire group like in IWD and all the management of the caravan company felt different from most adventures and fun in a certain way.
MoTB is still my favorite tho.

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SoZ was quite fun to play, and definitely different as it was mainly designed around adding the scripting capabilities and features most requested by content creators, such as the "overland map".
But, yes, MotB stands out as the best NWN2 game.

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Joining here after all these messages.

I was among the angry mob when they released the first footage ever (and I had never played DOS before).
I just didn't like it, it was not BG for me. Why?
I'll try to be short: those anime-like jumps with explosion when they land (also during stealth? D'oh!), all that blood and gore, the camera system like a first-person shooter (and I hate it now that I tried DOS 2 as well), and many other things.

I agree with the OP who said that Larian is risking a lot here, but already in the second public live playtest it was much better (at least they fixed those unacceptable dialogues).
Still I miss the atmosphere, the character of BG, BG2, P:T, IWD and the like ... those dialogs, with written options (which even DOS2 could not replicate, come on, that narrator, please ...).

But the true reason of this writing of mine is... has anyone realised that the beginning of BG3 and the beginning of DOS2 are practically the same?
In DOS2 ok, you get an intro (but maybe we'll get it as well in BG3) and then you are a stranded shipwrecked.
In BG3 ... you are a stranded nautiloid-wrecked ...
I mean wait ... a company with offices in strategic parts of the globe so that they can have 24h uptime, with a developed franchise and so on and so forth ... could really not come up with a more original story? A more original beginning?
I realised this when I played for the first time the beginning of DOS2 few days ago (yes, I hadn't before and I am pretty sure I won't go after the first playthrough, to me cRPG are not this, I'm sorry, already a Diablo 2-3 like interface and camera system would have been enough to me...).
...and I couldn't believe my eyes ...

I will see what changed on the 18th, and yes, even if I won't be able to play this until it comes on Mac (no Google, you won't get my money nor my everything else), I will still play it ... but I'm pretty sure I won't like it...

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