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Originally Posted by etonbears

I play games SP only, and don't care one whit what others do in their games. What does fair even mean when an experience is entirely your own ?

But my general position would be to always allow players choice where it is practical and reasonable. Not doing so often reduces the appeal of a game and the reputation of the developer.


I think "hey - it's a single player game and you can do whatever you want" is generally really healthy attitude and I completely agree with it when it comes to modding games, choosing difficulty, cheats w/e. I think there are 3 aspects you should take into consideration:

1) it's not single player only game
2) even if you are the only person in the world who knows, there is a sense of satisfaction in knowing that you started from same position as any other player and overcame greater challenges.
3) there are people like me - who are really bothered if they didn't make their char as strong as they could when they could have and will spend 30 mins + just sitting there and rerolling. It's not a fun experience. There are reasons why RPG trends moved away from random stats.

I believe fixed starting stats would make for a better game, but more that I think about it, more convinced I am that they will go with DnD 5e rules.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Danielbda
I think that fixed point allocation cannot be considered an "option" unless you can choose to roll stats instead.


Originally Posted by TadasGa
Well by that convoluted defintion yes, I would prefer to have no "option" then.


How is this definition/example convoluted?


I had to reread it multiple times to understand what he is getting at, but tbh the underlying tone I get "I am not getting what I want therefore it's not an option".

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Quote
I think that fixed point allocation cannot be considered an "option" unless you can choose to roll stats instead.


Seems to me what he means is that if point buy is the only way to determine stats, there is no option, such as there would be if you can choose to either point buy or roll.

Having the ability to choose is better, if that isn't too much to ask of Larian (which I doubt it is).

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Yes, that's the explicit message I got after rereading it multiple times. I still stand by the underlying tone.

Edit: and I disagree that having ability to choose is better.

Last edited by TadasGa; 16/03/20 06:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by TadasGa
I disagree that having ability to choose is better.


Is this because you feel, if given a choice, you will be unable to resist rolling and therefore risk becoming caught in a long character creation process?

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as others said its a single player game so if you want to cheese your stats fine.
but point buy should definitly be an option for those of us that want to play multiplayer and have all the players be on even footing

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
Originally Posted by etonbears

I play games SP only, and don't care one whit what others do in their games. What does fair even mean when an experience is entirely your own ?

But my general position would be to always allow players choice where it is practical and reasonable. Not doing so often reduces the appeal of a game and the reputation of the developer.


I think "hey - it's a single player game and you can do whatever you want" is generally really healthy attitude and I completely agree with it when it comes to modding games, choosing difficulty, cheats w/e. I think there are 3 aspects you should take into consideration:

1) it's not single player only game
2) even if you are the only person in the world who knows, there is a sense of satisfaction in knowing that you started from same position as any other player and overcame greater challenges.
3) there are people like me - who are really bothered if they didn't make their char as strong as they could when they could have and will spend 30 mins + just sitting there and rerolling. It's not a fun experience. There are reasons why RPG trends moved away from random stats.

I believe fixed starting stats would make for a better game, but more that I think about it, more convinced I am that they will go with DnD 5e rules.


Specifically, on your points, my personal take is:

1 / It will be SP if I play it; and I don't believe any play mode should limit the experience of other play modes.
2 / Nope, sorry, but I really have zero competitive instincts, which is why I am uninterested in MP. The story construction and breadth of game experience are what matters to me, not artificial metrics like pointless collectables, random achievements, or even difficulty levels..
3 / I would like to say I've never done that, but it would be a lie smile I once spent about 6 hours rolling and saving all sorts of strong characters - I assume I then played one of them, but can't actually remember. But it was my choice, and therefore my problem.

Your way of looking at it is obviously fine, we just have different values perhaps?

I have quite a strong dislike of anyone who thinks they know better than me what I want from a product I purchase. This is why I use Linux rather than Windows or MacOS, despite the fact that it is less polished; I am prepared to deal with the problems that come with my choice in order to remove myself from someone else's control.

I guess I am probably Chaotic Good smile


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I do like the idea of dice rolling to get your stats but for online I think there will have to go with point buying


Cthulhu: FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS I LAY DORMANT, WHO HAS DISTURBED MY- Oh its you...
Warlock: Greetings my lord-
Cthulhu: LET ME SLEEP-
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If someone has a self-control problem, that is their problem - NOT the game designer's problem.

For multiplayer, there are some possible solutions, such as the host decides what stat allocation system is used for everyone, and for rerolling stats, there's a time limit how long you can re-roll so other players can't get held up forever waiting for someone to roll a hundred times.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
Yes, that's the explicit message I got after rereading it multiple times. I still stand by the underlying tone.

Edit: and I disagree that having ability to choose is better.

More choices to roll your character in an RPG is never a bad thing.

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I am not a fan of stat dice rolls in cRPG. It is an interesting concept - having an ability to simply roll a weaker character. But in Table-Top GM can craft experience depending on how game develops. In cRPG making power of player character randomized, on top of player's competency only makes devs job harder - how do they craft fun experience, if player rolls a crappy character? And would a new player know if they roll was good enough? Or will they invest 15-20 hours into the game, only to realize that they are behind/in front of enjoyable difficulty curve because of a roll they had when they started the game?

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I agree. In a table top game if you roll a bad character a DM can help tip the scales with certain items and/or reward creative playing. It's not quite the same in a video game.

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id also point out that in a ttrpg character death isnt the end of the campaign
most campaigns these days in modern editions use point buy.

rolling stats i usually something that OSR type groups do, you know the ones where you are supposed to burn through 5 characters in the first dungeon.

Last edited by Sordak; 17/03/20 07:21 AM.
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When I host a game I require my players to roll three characters. You're right I do expect them to die, something which video gamers tend to dislike, myself included. Though FF VII pulled it off well there are still some people upset to this day :P

Here's the scene plus a good AMV I'm glad I could still find it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6RwucTudAk

Here's another one more heavily focused on advent children.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWsOpFRTpus

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I used to play WoW years ago and sometimes game lead designer - Ghostcrawler would sometimes share his decision making process. One thing that stuck with me was him justifying removing some gameplay element, it went something like this (I am heavily paraphrasing, it's been like a decade) - players tend to do what gives optimum results even at expense of fun, even if it's a small advantage and to get it is tedious. It is better game design to remove that option so they can do the fun part without feeling guilty about not maximizing their perfomance.

If you add option to roll for you character and an option of fixed nr of stat points, the optimum gameplay solution is to keep rolling until you have much greater number of stat points when the "fixed" option would get you. Not only many players will spend great amount of time rolling until they get their "perfect" character it also makes the character more boring - with considerably less decision making of what strengths and weaknesses the character should have.

Setting aside pseudo moralising "oh it's their own fault if they have ruined their fun for them" having fixed nr of starting stats is much healthier option for the game, in my opinion, but as I said before, I am pretty sure they will go for the roll option.

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There is a game on PC called "Grimmwood" and it does have limited rolls, and that does work out for the game. However it is a game based on co-operation with other players. In essence the players make the story. I don't believe there is any single player equivalent to date that can provide the same experience. Perhaps when game AI reaches a sci-fi like level to where you can easily mistake them for people.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
players tend to do what gives optimum results even at expense of fun, even if it's a small advantage and to get it is tedious. It is better game design to remove that option so they can do the fun part without feeling guilty about not maximizing their perfomance.

Yes. That's common thread, whenever it comes to game design or balance. Majority of players want to do well in game, so given an opportunity they will exploit systems, even if it results in less compelling experience. As to "you can just not do that" or "it's optional"... I am of belief, that it is game designer's job, to design the game, which is engaging, rewarding, fun and encourages enjoyable behaviour and gameplay styles. Self-imposed limitations or mods shouldn't be needed to enjoy the game to the full extend.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
I used to play WoW years ago and sometimes game lead designer - Ghostcrawler would sometimes share his decision making process. One thing that stuck with me was him justifying removing some gameplay element, it went something like this (I am heavily paraphrasing, it's been like a decade) - players tend to do what gives optimum results even at expense of fun, even if it's a small advantage and to get it is tedious. It is better game design to remove that option so they can do the fun part without feeling guilty about not maximizing their perfomance.


Sorry, I don't agree with participation trophy approach. Not that I think point buying falls under that heading; I just don't care for this rationalization.

Originally Posted by TadasGa
If you add option to roll for you character and an option of fixed nr of stat points, the optimum gameplay solution is to keep rolling until you have much greater number of stat points when the "fixed" option would get you. Not only many players will spend great amount of time rolling until they get their "perfect" character it also makes the character more boring - with considerably less decision making of what strengths and weaknesses the character should have.


Point buying leads to predictable results and will likely mean every replay of the game will have classes beginning with the same stats. Predictability and repetitiveness makes things more boring, IMO (not that I think point buying is "boring" in general).

Originally Posted by TadasGa
Setting aside pseudo moralising "oh it's their own fault if they have ruined their fun for them" having fixed nr of starting stats is much healthier option for the game, in my opinion, but as I said before, I am pretty sure they will go for the roll option.


Let the people decide for themselves which is the "healthier" option. I find it ... interesting when someone claims to know what is best for everyone else.

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i agree in principles Tadas.
but i think the point is to make that an option with an alternative.

For example in old games, youll always roll till you get good stats BECAUSE theres no Point Buy.
If you can enable point buy, you can skip the rolling process and are thus not incentivized to cheese.

Now, in the actual game, yeah, ill always try to minmax my character SOMEHOW even within a dumb build.


>Participation trophy approach
you literaly do not understand his argument.
Its not about giving player stuff for free.
and why would you even make th eargument here? Dice rolling till you get "right "result isnt skill.

hte point here is that if theres the ability to get better at the expense of the game actually beeing fun or complex, that option should be removed.

Let me apply this argument in context.
when in a fightin ggame, you hve an OP character, everyone naturally will gravitate towards that character. In principle the game would still work because everyone would play the same character.
but thats just less fun than having a full roster, thus balancing the character means a better video game.

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Originally Posted by TadasGa
I used to play WoW years ago and sometimes game lead designer - Ghostcrawler would sometimes share his decision making process. One thing that stuck with me was him justifying removing some gameplay element, it went something like this (I am heavily paraphrasing, it's been like a decade) - players tend to do what gives optimum results even at expense of fun, even if it's a small advantage and to get it is tedious. It is better game design to remove that option so they can do the fun part without feeling guilty about not maximizing their perfomance.

Interesting observation coming from a developer of WoW, a game where people grind for years on end lol. Larian is going that route with gameplay to avoid excessive save scumming interfering with game-flow and immersion.

However, I would argue the character creation isn't really part of the gameplay and thus won't interfere with fun. It's a one time investment if you want, and if you don't, point buy will be a quicker option. The roll method is not only by the D&D rules, it would also be a homage to the original series, both mechanically and as a way to possibly making the player character feel more outstanding and heroic (in BG 1-2 the PC had unique abilities and powers, in BG 3 the PC is seemingly one of several origin characters who share the same abilities and powers). I really hope Larian adds the option to roll and bring on the super-charged tadpole-spawn! wink

Last edited by Seraphael; 24/03/20 05:40 PM.
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