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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have not read one person post the obvious in regards to limitless bolts, the tactical advantage range has over melee. Melee you need to get up and personal, you will most certainly take damage. Ranged there is little risk... if your smart. So giving ranged unlimited arrows, is just OP, IMO

Not really. Arrows, on their own, don't do much. And a shortbow is the same as a longsword for damage.
The downside is that you incur an AOO if you shoot while in melee.

So Ranged = Can't do melee
Melee = Can't do ranged.

If you give players infinite base ammo, you're actually balancing the equation, since melee character don't 'use up' their 1d6 sword to attack.


Maybe its my fault, for not spelling it out better, the point ( lets see If I can do this right) Melle take physical damage while in melee, as where ranged do not... IF they are smart and tactical. There for giving them unlimited bolts is OP


DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have not read one person post the obvious in regards to limitless bolts, the tactical advantage range has over melee. Melee you need to get up and personal, you will most certainly take damage. Ranged there is little risk... if your smart. So giving ranged unlimited arrows, is just OP, IMO

Not really. Arrows, on their own, don't do much. And a shortbow is the same as a longsword for damage.
The downside is that you incur an AOO if you shoot while in melee.

So Ranged = Can't do melee
Melee = Can't do ranged.

If you give players infinite base ammo, you're actually balancing the equation, since melee character don't 'use up' their 1d6 sword to attack.


Maybe its my fault, for not spelling it out better, the point ( lets see If I can do this right) Melle take physical damage while in melee, as where ranged do not... IF they are smart and tactical. There for giving them unlimited bolts is OP

And is disagree.
They can be hit by any number of monsters with ranged attacks, or bandits with bows. Or even spells.

They also, unless taking Weapon Finesse, or finding/buying a Composite bow (which are slightly expensive) tend to have a lower ToHit than melee characters, so they miss more, which reduces their damage output.

It looks slightly OP on paper, but when you put it into actual combat, it's really not. Ranged characters just tend to miss more, and thus do less damage. So it's only OP if you assume every attack hits.

And again; if a Melee character Charges them and put them into a melee fight; they are now pretty useless, as they take Attacks Of Opportunity when they try to shoot, unless they move away.
And being geared for range, they probably don't have a shield, so they have lower AC and get hit more.

Edit: I should add, between 3.5, Pathfinder, & 5E, I've NEVER had to keep track of my arrow use, unless they were special arrows, and I've never been OP compared to our melee fighters.

Last edited by Eguzky; 22/03/20 02:01 AM.
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Here's where being "tactical" comes into play.

1. Let tank get agro

2. Let caster put down crowd control

3. ranged bowman rain hell = little to no damage, low risk.

Why am I still here? I have little to no hope that this game will resemble a good dungeons and dragons game. I guess there really isn't anything on the horizon other than elden ring. I guess Im just a sucker.

IMO the only games I like that gave me a good dnd feel were the neverwinter nights saga, and Dungeons and Dragons online, and the latter has its issues, but to me it felt good playing with others and in teh early days even though there were not spells per day, it sure was a awesome game. WoTc jsut has not put out one good game since 06' IMO


Last edited by Doomlord; 22/03/20 02:07 AM.

DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Here's where being "tactical" comes into play.

1. Let tank get agro

2. Let caster put down crowd control

3. ranged bowman rain hell = little to no damage, low risk.

Why am I still here? I have little to no hope that this game will resemble a good dungeons and dragons game. I guess there really isn't anything on the horizon other than elden ring. I guess Im just a sucker.


And what's different in your equation if your ranged bowman bought 50-100 arrows?
The only difference is making the player spend money & waste time in town doing so, or not.

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I have two words for you

"Entitlement syndrome"

Anything after this will get political and the social justice warriors of this decaying world will come out. Im done. In the end I don't care.


DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have two words for you

"Entitlement syndrome"

Anything after this will get political and the social justice warriors of this decaying world will come out. Im done. In the end I don't care.

I see. I see. You can't 'win' the discussion (which has no winner, by the way. It's just two equally valid viewpoints), so you call me entitled.

Yeah, you're not worth discussing things with if you're going to stoop to insults just because I disagree with you. Have a good night. Try to go find something fun to do, instead of insulting people on this forum.

And nothing should be political about a discussion between infinite ammo or limited ammo.

Last edited by Eguzky; 22/03/20 02:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have two words for you

"Entitlement syndrome"

Anything after this will get political and the social justice warriors of this decaying world will come out. Im done. In the end I don't care.

I see. I see. You can't 'win' the discussion (which has no winner, by the way. It's just two equally valid viewpoints), so you call me entitled.

Yeah, you're not worth discussing things with if you're going to stoop to insults just because I disagree with you. Have a good night. Try to go find something fun to do, instead of insulting people on this forum.

And nothing should be political about a discussion between infinite ammo or limited ammo.


Wanting unlimited bolts because as you said.. "i'll have to spend money.. and go to town" INstead of using your brain and picking up used bolts from the dead, Yea its entitlement, sorry the truth hurts


DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have two words for you

"Entitlement syndrome"

Anything after this will get political and the social justice warriors of this decaying world will come out. Im done. In the end I don't care.

I see. I see. You can't 'win' the discussion (which has no winner, by the way. It's just two equally valid viewpoints), so you call me entitled.

Yeah, you're not worth discussing things with if you're going to stoop to insults just because I disagree with you. Have a good night. Try to go find something fun to do, instead of insulting people on this forum.

And nothing should be political about a discussion between infinite ammo or limited ammo.


Wanting unlimited bolts because as you said.. "i'll have to spend money.. and go to town" INstead of using your brain and picking up used bolts from the dead, Yea its entitlement, sorry the truth hurts

Wanting a more streamlined experience that cuts out some inventory management is not entitlement. There's no 'truth' there except your attempts to be rude.

But again; all you want to do is insult someone instead of have a discussion, so I'm not responding to you after this.

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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Doomlord
I have two words for you

"Entitlement syndrome"

Anything after this will get political and the social justice warriors of this decaying world will come out. Im done. In the end I don't care.

I see. I see. You can't 'win' the discussion (which has no winner, by the way. It's just two equally valid viewpoints), so you call me entitled.

Yeah, you're not worth discussing things with if you're going to stoop to insults just because I disagree with you. Have a good night. Try to go find something fun to do, instead of insulting people on this forum.

And nothing should be political about a discussion between infinite ammo or limited ammo.


Wanting unlimited bolts because as you said.. "i'll have to spend money.. and go to town" INstead of using your brain and picking up used bolts from the dead, Yea its entitlement, sorry the truth hurts

Wanting a more streamlined experience that cuts out some inventory management is not entitlement. There's no 'truth' there except your attempts to be rude.

But again; all you want to do is insult someone instead of have a discussion, so I'm not responding to you after this.



Nope you're wrong, my intentions are not at all to insult people. I love people. So please don't put me in a box with a label, because you don't like the word entitlements.

- the amount to which a person has a right.


- the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.


- a government program that provides benefits to any individual meeting certain eligibility requirements.

I can end the debate now, and Ill use your premise from the level cap post were trading posts in. HOUSE RULES. larian wins all arguments its their game. Match point

And at no point since I have been a member of these forums have I intentionally tried to insults anyone.



Last edited by Doomlord; 22/03/20 02:40 AM.

DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
I can end the debate now

If you're going to bandy the word "entitled" about, that would be nice. Thanks.


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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Doomlord
Originally Posted by Emrikol
Honestly, the idea of having a quiver with a finite set of arrows that need to be replenished has a certain kind of appeal, but I have always found the reality of dealing with it not so appealing or satisfying. And it does place a burden on archers that melee characters don't have to deal with, which seems a little unbalanced.


I agree, I vote Wizards and Sorc have unlimited spells per day, as to be balanced with the fighters ability to swing his axe unlimited times per day!! And now that were on the subject My paladin is feeling left out he wants unlimited lay on handS!! ....NOT


The equivalent would be reagents for spellcasters and having to sharpen weapons after every few battles, not unlimited spells. Move along.


I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit out a better statement than that.


Don't hide behind attempts at wit. You equated unlimited spells to unlimited swings of a weapon. Show us how unlimited fireballs equals unlimited weapon swings. Go ahead. Entertain us.

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Just the fact that I have to spell it out to you, you wont understand. Go back to the first post, read all of them, then read your second to last post. Then you might... might, understand where I was coming from. And your attempt to brush me off was weak sauce.

Last edited by Doomlord; 22/03/20 03:29 AM.

DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Originally Posted by Doomlord
Just the fact that I have to spell it out to you, you wont understand. Go back to the first post read all of them, then read your second to last post. Then you might... might, understand where I was coming from. And your attempt to brush me off was weak sauce.


Predictable. Once again, move along.

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Originally Posted by Emrikol
Originally Posted by Doomlord
Just the fact that I have to spell it out to you, you wont understand. Go back to the first post read all of them, then read your second to last post. Then you might... might, understand where I was coming from. And your attempt to brush me off was weak sauce.


Predictable. Once again, move along.



If you’re waiting for me to care, I hope you brought something to eat, cause it’s gonna be a really long time.

Last edited by Doomlord; 22/03/20 03:30 AM.

DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
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Guys, quit snarking.


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Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Exclusif
You can make an argument for infinite ammo, but I really don’t like it. It’s one of one those small things that add up to making the game more arcady and less immersive.

Hard disapprove.

If 'immersive' is the argument for it, I could argue that we should have hunger and thirst bars. And we should have to find places for our characters to defecate when adventuring. And we should have to buy soap and bathe, or suffer penalties to CHA after a few days. And there should be a mini-game for sharpening our weapons after a fight, or adjusting the straps on our plate armor. And bones should be breakable and take in-game months to heal.
And the main quest to get rid of the tadpole should have a timer ticking down every second after you start playing; take too long and you just game over. This includes when doing inventory management, cinematics, and talking to people, because time passes regardless of what you're doing.

Sometimes you have to suspend realism/immersion for player convenience and a more streamlined user experience.
I know I did not play Amazons in Diablo 2 because I got insanely bored of spending my money on arrows while my friends were buying magic weapons and armor and rings. Or going back to town every time I ran out.


Its clearly about striking a balance, not actually roleplaying you having to take a huge dump after a especially spicy meal. But also, some things are within the rules of the game. One thing I found jarring when moving from a swedish RPG to D&D was that there was no pain mechanic. Like, you get no negative effects to your psyche by taking a sword to your gut? But its a fantasy game and the rule is, there are no rules that deal with pain. With the same token you could easily argue the same about having unlimited supplies of arrows (mundane or otherwise). Most games have moved past this out of, what I can only imagine, pure convenience. Too many players complain about lack of quality of life mechanics. Personally, I wouldnt be that fuzzed about regular misslies being unlimited but I do think its good for immersion to actually have to bother with such things.

I wouldnt mind if there was a hunger mechanic in the game aswell, it adds to the experience of being out adventuring in a hostile enviroment (as long as there are ways to scavange for food in the wild so you dont constantly have to resupply at the town vendor).But the younger generation disagrees, having to manage things like food supplies gets in the way of getting frags so there would be countless of posts about it on the forums, probably more posts complaining about it than the RTwP-TB debate. So while Baldurs Gate didnt have it, there were contemporary RPGs that did.

Last edited by Torque; 22/03/20 06:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by Torque
Originally Posted by Eguzky
Originally Posted by Exclusif
You can make an argument for infinite ammo, but I really don’t like it. It’s one of one those small things that add up to making the game more arcady and less immersive.

Hard disapprove.

If 'immersive' is the argument for it, I could argue that we should have hunger and thirst bars. And we should have to find places for our characters to defecate when adventuring. And we should have to buy soap and bathe, or suffer penalties to CHA after a few days. And there should be a mini-game for sharpening our weapons after a fight, or adjusting the straps on our plate armor. And bones should be breakable and take in-game months to heal.
And the main quest to get rid of the tadpole should have a timer ticking down every second after you start playing; take too long and you just game over. This includes when doing inventory management, cinematics, and talking to people, because time passes regardless of what you're doing.

Sometimes you have to suspend realism/immersion for player convenience and a more streamlined user experience.
I know I did not play Amazons in Diablo 2 because I got insanely bored of spending my money on arrows while my friends were buying magic weapons and armor and rings. Or going back to town every time I ran out.


Its clearly about striking a balance, not actually roleplaying you having to take a huge dump after a especially spicy meal. But also, some things are within the rules of the game. One thing I found jarring when moving from a swedish RPG to D&D was that there was no pain mechanic. Like, you get no negative effects to your psyche by taking a sword to your gut? But its a fantasy game and the rule is, there are no rules that deal with pain. With the same token you could easily argue the same about having unlimited supplies of arrows (mundane or otherwise). Most games have moved past this out of, what I can only imagine, pure convenience. Too many players complain about lack of quality of life mechanics. Personally, I wouldnt be that fuzzed about regular misslies being unlimited but I do think its good for immersion to actually have to bother with such things.

I wouldnt mind if there was a hunger mechanic in the game aswell, it adds to the experience of being out adventuring in a hostile enviroment (as long as there are ways to scavange for food in the wild so you dont constantly have to resupply at the town vendor).But the younger generation disagrees, having to manage things like food supplies gets in the way of getting frags so there would be countless of posts about it on the forums, probably more posts complaining about it than the RTwP-TB debate. So while Baldurs Gate didnt have it, there were contemporary RPGs that did.

I would 100% pass on a hunger or thirst mechanic.
Part of the problem is that your characters have a wasting disease. You eat, then have to eat again 30 minutes later. It's a non-stop brake-pumping to make/eat food. No game, not even survival games, have done it very well. Eat, scaven-eatmore! Eat, try to buil-eatmore!
It just brings the game to a screeching halt every time.

Plus, BG is not a survival game. I honestly woudl be disappointed if I saw hunger/thirst as a mechanic in it, unless I could turn it off with 0 punishment for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Eguzky

I would 100% pass on a hunger or thirst mechanic.
Part of the problem is that your characters have a wasting disease. You eat, then have to eat again 30 minutes later. It's a non-stop brake-pumping to make/eat food. No game, not even survival games, have done it very well. Eat, scaven-eatmore! Eat, try to buil-eatmore!
It just brings the game to a screeching halt every time.

Plus, BG is not a survival game. I honestly woudl be disappointed if I saw hunger/thirst as a mechanic in it, unless I could turn it off with 0 punishment for doing so.


Yea, sure. We do have a camp site so I assume we will have to rest or be fatigued and the "sustinance" mechanic we're talking about could just be baked into that. As I said in my first post, having to empty your bladder every 3-4 hours is excessive and so would having to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner AND a late night snack every day.

Its about striking a balance with tedious and mundane things (that may also require micromanagement) and creative an immersive experience. If there are enough ammo/food or whatever supply to be scavanged from the surroundings or loot from dead bodies that you dont constantly have to go back to town and resupply its not an issue. Like, you rarely run out of normal arrows in Baldurs Gate because there are enough enemies around to kill that drops them.

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Originally Posted by Torque
Yea, sure. We do have a camp site so I assume we will have to rest or be fatigued and the "sustinance" mechanic we're talking about could just be baked into that. As I said in my first post, having to empty your bladder every 3-4 hours is excessive and so would having to eat breakfast, lunch, dinner AND a late night snack every day.

Its about striking a balance with tedious and mundane things (that may also require micromanagement) and creative an immersive experience. If there are enough ammo/food or whatever supply to be scavanged from the surroundings or loot from dead bodies that you dont constantly have to go back to town and resupply its not an issue. Like, you rarely run out of normal arrows in Baldurs Gate because there are enough enemies around to kill that drops them.


Survival mechanics are notoriously difficult to balance in games not based entirely around them. They also don't really offer much interest. Press a button to search a container for some ingredients. Press a button to craft the ingredients into a thing you need. Press a button to use the thing you need.

If fulfilling their requirements is so easy as to be trivial through casual play, then they don't really add anything to the game except pointless busywork and could be discarded without consequence. If fulfilling their requirements is not trivial, then it's generally a distraction from other, more fun or interesting things that you would rather be doing.

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I agree.
Survival mechanics in RPGs are mostly either trivial or annoying. Both things are not fun.
This is an RPG, not a survival game or a realistic simulator.
BG1+2 did not have it. I remember the loading screen message: "Remember to eat something. Your characters don´t need to eat but you do." ( I was playing in german, so I do not know the english text,)

I would not mind having an optional realistic hardcore survival mode, such as Fallout New Vegas.
But it is not a priority of me and I never used this mode in this game or another.


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