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Originally Posted by TadasGa
>What percentage of people can not be classified biologically as male or female?

About 1.7% are intersex https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/

Edit: also any definition of "male" or "female" will always depend on averages, on statistical norms, or on arbitrary cut-off points.

I'd rather not join the discussion at all, but this number has been addressed in the past:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12476264 a scholarly resource website suggests the number to be closer to 0.018%
https://isna.org/faq/frequency/ an advocacy site for intersex youth suggests 1 in 1500 to 1 in 2000 or 0.05%
I won't get into gendered topics, but it's suggested that the 1.7% encompasses a multitude of genetic and birth abnormalities and not actually intersex itself.

As to the actual OP and not this seemingly off-topic discussion: I would prefer overtly real world politics be left out of the game. Politics between factions in the game can be done very interestingly, but as soon as you start ham fisting real world politics (I don't care what end of the spectrum) I'm out.

So I hope there is some interesting politics, but I don't want the developers to try and force either their views or their fake views on me.

Same with diversity in the game, great if it's there, but there's no need to force it in like some square box to be checked off (Bioware) and it should make sense within the context of the IP. Cyberpunk should logically nail this out of the park given its setting, but we'll see if CDPR can handle it.


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Politics are in the Eye of the Beholder (pun intended) and making a mountain out of a mole hill is all about how hyper focused one becomes on a singular issue alone.

if you let one minor detail of a characters personality ruin your experience...that’s on you man. Maybe see a therapist if minor details in your morning routine ruin your whole day, nothing negative but life is more enjoyable for everyone when what you may consider a flaw becomes just a detail.

Now on the conservative liberal side of things...I can’t think of a single game that leans conservative throughout, but again it’s relative to how big of a deal you make of situations. Rob the rich to feed the poor? liberal pig! Help free slaves from human traffickers? They just need to pull up their boot straps and free themselves! Evil bandits killing all the men in a town? They should learn to use a sword. Evil bandits killing all the babies in a town? WRATH OF GOD WILL BURN THEM ALL.

Story lines are easier when you assume the player has compassion, if you wrote a game so you could just choose to ignore massive inequalities, you’d press a few buttons and get a giant YOU WIN notification at the end. Hell maybe that would work for a large portion of the player base, but I wouldn’t buy it.

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actually, a lot of games are conservative without realizing it.
Basically any plot about saving your people is conservative by todays standards.

i also love your narrow minded view on what conservativism is.
And it shows that you should follow your own advice and maybe your entire view on this is, as you say, on your own.

its funny however how this view of "bruh its just a little thing duuude" only comes from people that already have their way in the industry and are on the defensive.
If its just a small thing, why even have it?
The argument works both ways.
Why do you need to have more than 2 genders in your game? Whats gained from it if its so insignificant?

on the issue with compelled speech from the last page: dont realy have to add anything there, but a big issue.

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A game which I like a lot but which paints a rather misogynistic picture (and doesn't touch LGTB at all besides an event where gay love is mentioned and condemned in-game) is Battle Brothers:

Only men can fight (no single woman as playable char in the game), women are depicted in clichee roles such as prostitutes, damsel in distress etc.

But: this is a game that takes place in a low fantasy medieval world very similar to Europe's medieval times. So while I would oppose such behavior and views in the real world (I guess most people would do) it's okay for me in this game. Why would I be offended by a game that tries to somewhat accurately depict medieval flair? Life in general isn't worth much in this game. It's obviously a game made by nerdy men for nerdy men. No harm in that. The devs themselves don't share the views of the characters in their game.

A far as I can tell BB didn't get a lot of backlash for this rather "conservative" or clichee game/world design. The game was very successful. Most games cater to male audiences. Yet male gamers keep yelling that their views get oppressed, politics shoved down their throats etc.
What a nonsense. There are writers in the game industry that want to tell a story about something they think is worthwhile writng about. Let them. Don't tell creators what to create and what not. If you don't like the outcome then pass. It's very easy.

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Whats gained is you make someone different than you feel included....denying happiness from other people just because you want to is wrong. I know that view is considered liberal but treating others how you would want to be treated is kind of the golden rule of humanity. Its not 'have their way in the industry' its just reality; some people have different ideas than you do, and that's ok. Imagine if the first human who learned to draw, or start a fire, or tried to come up with speech was just kicked out and left to die.....we'd still be in the trees picking ticks off one another. Granted picking a characters sexuality is a far fetch from progressing mankind, but it's the same train of thought that let us get here.

Maybe someone's struggling with what they are going through and all they can relate to is a few pixels in a game. Why deny them that?

I'm not sure what country you're from...but conservatism in the states just tried to sacrifice thousands of real people so the rich can continue to get richer and because a good economy was the only positive in our president's reelection campaign. I hear what they are saying just like everyone else, but look how they vote, read what they are voting for and against. don't just trust karen from facebook or comrade mikael from russia. There's about to be a huge fight over voting by mail or online here...one side wants every citizen to have the ability to vote and vote easily, the other side wants to keep as many people from voting as possible. Which is right and why would they be afraid of letting people vote? It's not voter fraud, remember last election how they claimed so many illegal immigrants and dead people were voting and how they were launching investigations into each area the numbers didnt make sense to them? Zero voter fraud was found, just like every other investigation. It's lies to whip their base up for them to go vote....lies are another one of those golden rules of humanity things. They are wrong.

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I don't get how conservative is synonymous with degenerate incestuous hillbilly in this thread. Perhaps the mainstream news and social media are partly to blame - if someone is dehumanizing your opponents, you are probably being hardwired for violence at some point in the future. Fans have every right to say what they like or don't like about a particular game's writing unless you don't believe in free speech which is undoubtedly preferable to censored or no speech (when you cease communication with the other party, you are already on a war footing). I can't comment on BB but it seems more like anecdotal evidence to me. Does the current establishment (by that I mean Hollywood, the Silicon Valley, Blizzard, Activision, EA etc.) strike anyone as conservative or far-right? People who have consumed their products for a long time are obviously going to cultivate the perception things are being shoved down their throats as some of their favorite franchises have recently taken a different turn as far as writing. It's up to the developers to act on the feedback or ignore it, that's for sure. There's no need to tell people things like "if you don't like the outcome then pass" because it's redundant and sounds like you want to ostracize people for merely expressing their opinion instead of dealing with the latter's contents.

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>I won't get into gendered topics, but it's suggested that the 1.7% encompasses a multitude of genetic and birth abnormalities and not actually intersex itself.

Sure, it just goes to show that either definition relies on arbitrary cut off points and how do you want to compartmentalize the spectrum. For example is XXY male or intersex or it's own thing? Is XY who has external female genitalia and sees herself as a woman is a male or a female or w/e? Depends on definitions. My bigger point still stands - sex is not binary.

Last edited by TadasGa; 01/04/20 10:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by Boeroer
A game which I like a lot but which paints a rather misogynistic picture (and doesn't touch LGTB at all besides an event where gay love is mentioned and condemned in-game) is Battle Brothers:

Only men can fight (no single woman as playable char in the game), women are depicted in clichee roles such as prostitutes, damsel in distress etc.

But: this is a game that takes place in a low fantasy medieval world very similar to Europe's medieval times. So while I would oppose such behavior and views in the real world (I guess most people would do) it's okay for me in this game. Why would I be offended by a game that tries to somewhat accurately depict medieval flair? Life in general isn't worth much in this game. It's obviously a game made by nerdy men for nerdy men. No harm in that. The devs themselves don't share the views of the characters in their game.

A far as I can tell BB didn't get a lot of backlash for this rather "conservative" or clichee game/world design. The game was very successful. Most games cater to male audiences. Yet male gamers keep yelling that their views get oppressed, politics shoved down their throats etc.
What a nonsense. There are writers in the game industry that want to tell a story about something they think is worthwhile writng about. Let them. Don't tell creators what to create and what not. If you don't like the outcome then pass. It's very easy.


Yes, whats happening in the game has to fit the setting of the game. This fantasy world is not a representation of the real world.
I am not an expert for DnD lore, but Larian works together with WOTC, so I see no problem there.

We have to remember that the things that are shown in the game are not the opinion of the devs.
Just because a game has a torture scene and the one who is doing it is not shown as insane, a terrorist or the absolute evil does not mean the devs support torture.

Once again: The stuff that happens in the game and the opinions of the characters of the game has to fit the setting.
The worst thing that could happen is when the devs use a game to force their point of view on the player.
Hypothetical extrem example: The devs are against abortion. They show a doctor who does abortions as evil and insane monster and they show the psycho killer who tortures, kills and eats this doctor as the good guy.
I have absolutely no reason to assume that such things will be in the game.

Regarding gender: Game mechanic wise gender has no effect in DnD. Any char of any race or gender can have any class, background, feats or alignment.
So its only about how each char fits into this story and into this fantasy world.
Outside of romance options there are very few cases where the gender of your char had any effect on the game.
I remember:
- Only a male human noble could become king in Dragon Age Origins. All other chars could not get this ending.
- In arcanum woman had -1 str and +1 con, some races could only select males and some backgrounds were only for some race/gender combinations.
I still remember my female half elf debutante with max cha and int. She solved all problems by talking and if this was not possible she had an army of followers to fight for her.
- In Realms of Arcadia 2 you have to enter a city that is occupied by orcs. You can enter but they take away all your non magic equipment. Only woman can keep their body armor, so its good to have a all woman party because plate armor can be very expensive.


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Originally Posted by macadami
Whats gained is you make someone different than you feel included....denying happiness from other people just because you want to is wrong. I know that view is considered liberal but treating others how you would want to be treated is kind of the golden rule of humanity. Its not 'have their way in the industry' its just reality; some people have different ideas than you do, and that's ok. Imagine if the first human who learned to draw, or start a fire, or tried to come up with speech was just kicked out and left to die.....we'd still be in the trees picking ticks off one another. Granted picking a characters sexuality is a far fetch from progressing mankind, but it's the same train of thought that let us get here.

Maybe someone's struggling with what they are going through and all they can relate to is a few pixels in a game. Why deny them that?

I'm not sure what country you're from...but conservatism in the states just tried to sacrifice thousands of real people so the rich can continue to get richer and because a good economy was the only positive in our president's reelection campaign. I hear what they are saying just like everyone else, but look how they vote, read what they are voting for and against. don't just trust karen from facebook or comrade mikael from russia. There's about to be a huge fight over voting by mail or online here...one side wants every citizen to have the ability to vote and vote easily, the other side wants to keep as many people from voting as possible. Which is right and why would they be afraid of letting people vote? It's not voter fraud, remember last election how they claimed so many illegal immigrants and dead people were voting and how they were launching investigations into each area the numbers didnt make sense to them? Zero voter fraud was found, just like every other investigation. It's lies to whip their base up for them to go vote....lies are another one of those golden rules of humanity things. They are wrong.

Let me be clear on one thing - a politician cares about votes, they seldom put their money where their mouth is and normally try to live as far away as possible from the issues they have had a hand in causing. If you judge an entire subset of the population by the politicians claiming to represent them, you are going to end up hating millions of people, that's a given.

As far as commitment to inclusion, do you think only LGBTQ people or those from ethnic/racial minority backgrounds are supposed to be included in entertainment? What about the deaf, the blind, the physically/mentally disabled, religious minorities, aborted fetuses, pets, communists, white nationalists, national socialists, black panthers, RTwP fans etc.? How do you accommodate all those people without offending anyone, coming off as cheap or mismanaging the budget? Maybe there's a totem pole I'm unaware of.

Last edited by korotama; 01/04/20 11:00 AM. Reason: typo
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man you realy are 16 and going through an edgy phase right macadami?
You realy think thats what conservativism is?

TadasGa ah, same applies to you.
World must be easy for you. Dont worry, youll grow out of it.

The one shows revulsion and fear is you.
Who has offered compassion to the other view? who has extended the olive branch? it wasnt you.
It is never people liek you either.
Because you feel like youve got all the answers.

that the world is literaly that easy.

Thats the difference. I understand why you are that way. It does come frm compassion. it also comes from wanting to fight for the underdog and from seeing injusitce.

What you dont see is that you exclude those that dont fall into your vision. That you want to activeley saccrifice liberty in the name of doing "the right" thing.
We already talked about this when it comes to compelled speech.

You ignore the bad faith actors in your own ranks and you ignore that the rules imposed can be easily exploited.

You think Conservativism is based on fear? Meanwhile your disdain for conservativism comes from a fear of intolerance and a fear of loss.
You dont get that some people want to preserve good things out of love for them.

Protecting what you hold dear is, at the core of it, a conservative value. Not a "Liberal" (in the american use of the word) value.

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Guys, discuss the topic (whatever it has transitioned into), not other members. Thanks.


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Just to be clear, I made an edgy post, that I deleted, but it seems not fast enough - Sordak is reacting to it.

Edit: but also you have in your mind some kind of cartoonish version of "liberal" that you have heavily projected onto me. Let's leave this topic. My post was distatesteful and let's leave it at that.

Last edited by TadasGa; 01/04/20 11:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sordak

You think Conservativism is based on fear? Meanwhile your disdain for conservativism comes from a fear of intolerance and a fear of loss.
You dont get that some people want to preserve good things out of love for them.


Are you trying to say that intolerance is a virtue? You're certainly trying to imply that intolerance is not something to be feared. Have you missed the dozens of news stories about members of hate groups who bomb or shoot up people they don't like (or are arrested before they can do so)? That is what unrestrained intolerance leads to. Hate and destruction.

Those who are intolerant think the way to try and preserve things for themselves is by prohibiting them for others. They love themselves and hate others. Is that healthy?


Quote
Protecting what you hold dear is, at the core of it, a conservative value. Not a "Liberal" (in the american use of the word) value.


The key word in that sentence is "you". Conservative value is "f--k you, I've got mine". It's about selfishness, protecting what they, personally, have while everyone else is on their own.

The smaller your focus, the less you can see. Trump cannot manage to see outside of his own head. He drove the United States off a cliff because he was incapable of seeing the bend in the road.

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Quote
Let me be clear on one thing - a politician cares about votes, they seldom put their money where their mouth is and normally try to live as far away as possible from the issues they have had a hand in causing. If you judge an entire subset of the population by the politicians claiming to represent them, you are going to end up hating millions of people, that's a given.

As far as commitment to inclusion, do you think only LGBTQ people or those from ethnic/racial minority backgrounds are supposed to be included in entertainment? What about the deaf, the blind, the physically/mentally disabled, religious minorities, aborted fetuses, pets, communists, white nationalists, national socialists, black panthers, RTwP fans etc.? How do you accommodate all those people without offending anyone, coming off as cheap or mismanaging the budget? Maybe there's a totem pole I'm unaware of.


That's just it though by your votes you are deciding how you are viewed...not the other way around. You don't like how they are representing you? Stop voting for them, it is that simple.

And yes, except for the hate groups you listed, most of those groups are represented in games where the story is broad enough to include them. It's only a few keystrokes or one artist's rendering to add a detail to a character. Obviously not the player character, but I really can't think of a single old or new RPG game that didn't have at least one physically handicapped NPC(usually the wise blind guy trope) and multiple shades and flavors of characters.

The all white male game would standout way more than adding variety to NPC's.

None of that matter's though, it all goes back to the same point. Why not? It costs the same to paint a picture of a blind guy, brown guy, or gay guy as it does a straight white guy.

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Originally Posted by macadami

That's just it though by your votes you are deciding how you are viewed...not the other way around. You don't like how they are representing you? Stop voting for them, it is that simple.


No, you aren't. Mature people don't judge the contents of someone's character solely by their voting patterns (that's called guilt by association) especially not in this day and age when politics is conducted for the highest bidder. The only thing this indicates to me is that you have a problem with diversity of opinion. Hopefully I am wrong.

Originally Posted by macadami

And yes, except for the hate groups you listed, most of those groups are represented in games where the story is broad enough to include them. It's only a few keystrokes or one artist's rendering to add a detail to a character. Obviously not the player character, but I really can't think of a single old or new RPG game that didn't have at least one physically handicapped NPC(usually the wise blind guy trope) and multiple shades and flavors of characters.


What's a hate group? Do you not realize how error-prone and subjective the term is? Most of the movements you call hate groups operate legally around the world because having a particular opinion doesn't make you a criminal (no matter what the news media says) in a society that values free speech. What's stopping me from calling you a hateful person based on your post history? You can't think of a single old or new RPG game that didn't have at least one physically handicapped NPC? Okay, how many wheelchair-bound characters can you think of from recent games?

In summary, your view of diversity seems to be very narrow. It's very convenient to smear minorities you don't like as hate groups, isn't it? Plus, who is supposed to be prioritized (who is at the top of the diversity totem pole) when making things like games according to your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Stabbey

Are you trying to say that intolerance is a virtue? You're certainly trying to imply that intolerance is not something to be feared. Have you missed the dozens of news stories about members of hate groups who bomb or shoot up people they don't like (or are arrested before they can do so)? That is what unrestrained intolerance leads to. Hate and destruction.

Those who are intolerant think the way to try and preserve things for themselves is by prohibiting them for others. They love themselves and hate others. Is that healthy?


Are you trying to say unrestrained tolerance is a virtue? Give me access to your savings and personal information now! If you don't do as I say, you're an intolerant bigot. Boo. Why would you be so selfish as to protect your belongings from other human beings?

Originally Posted by Stabbey

The key word in that sentence is "you". Conservative value is "f--k you, I've got mine". It's about selfishness, protecting what they, personally, have while everyone else is on their own.

The smaller your focus, the less you can see. Trump cannot manage to see outside of his own head. He drove the United States off a cliff because he was incapable of seeing the bend in the road.



As it happens, the keyword in your post is strawman. Since you're so hung up on Trump, he had been a lifelong Democrat prior to running as a Republican candidate. Do you not see the futility of such labels as liberal and conservative? It wasn't Trump that drove the US off a cliff but the people who have been utterly blindsided by party politics!

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Originally Posted by korotama

As it happens, the keyword in your post is strawman. Since you're so hung up on Trump, he had been a lifelong Democrat prior to running as a Republican candidate. Do you not see the futility of such labels as liberal and conservative? It wasn't Trump that drove the US off a cliff but the people who have been utterly blindsided by party politics!

That's the funny thing though, they're all the same on either spectrum. It's not like either side cares about the people or anything, it's just what they can do to get more votes and keep their influence going. They just pander to different groups and exploit them in different ways.

It's not something exclusive to democracy or capitalism either. Look at any governing system in the world and you'll see the exact same thing.

Hell, I haven't seen a difference regardless of president since Clinton. It's all been the same to me (aside from Clinton's housing market fiasco), but even then it never actually effected me at all. Clinton was Bush was Obama was Trump. They pretend to care about certain groups, but really they don't. The only one I think who might actually care is Trump, but not because he cares about the people, but because he cares about the overall perception of himself (even then it's for self-benefit).

All you can really do is live and let live. Even if people managed to radically change the governing system or the people running it, it'll literally end up in the same situation anyways.

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Originally Posted by Blade238

That's the funny thing though, they're all the same on either spectrum. It's not like either side cares about the people or anything, it's just what they can do to get more votes and keep their influence going. They just pander to different groups and exploit them in different ways.

It's not something exclusive to democracy or capitalism either. Look at any governing system in the world and you'll see the exact same thing.

Hell, I haven't seen a difference regardless of president since Clinton. It's all been the same to me (aside from Clinton's housing market fiasco), but even then it never actually effected me at all. Clinton was Bush was Obama was Trump. They pretend to care about certain groups, but really they don't. The only one I think who might actually care is Trump, but not because he cares about the people, but because he cares about the overall perception of himself (even then it's for self-benefit).

All you can really do is live and let live. Even if people managed to radically change the governing system or the people running it, it'll literally end up in the same situation anyways.


Yep. These are career politicians we're talking about. They've all become filthy rich in the meantime. How? Literally by shoehorning entire strata of society into predefined categories (which defy rational thought) and letting them duke it out while they line their pockets with money.

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Originally Posted by korotama
Yep. These are career politicians we're talking about. They've all become filthy rich in the meantime. How? Literally by shoehorning entire strata of society into predefined categories (which defy rational thought) and letting them duke it out while they line their pockets with money.

Something we might actually all agree on. The political class seems to be its own thing and the rest of us... well, aren't.


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You clearly cannot have a mature debate about this.
And its funny how aperently "conservativism" means "Libertarianism" to you people.

Im a european, so to me, this make so sense at all. In a european sense, Libertarianism is more of a centrist position (in the right vs left spectrum).
hence why the usual political acis has "libertarianism vs authoritarianism" on one axis and "left and right" on the other.

Conseratives are not about caring for oneself. Obviously. Otherwise conservatives wouldnt uphold the preservation of values, local culture and nation states.

You have to have a very narrow mindset if you want to see this as Selfishness.

>Muh Hate
>muh intolerance
Wrong.
Hate is an emotion. Intolerance is a tool.
Zero tolerance of crime is the way the police works. Imagine if it were any other way.

Intolerance of stuff thats harmfull to society is good.
Im intolerant of a lot of things and im in my damn right for beeing so. I have no tolerance for pedophiles, i have no tolerance for corrupt authority figures, i have no tolerance of opressive laws in the name of social inclusion, i have no tolerance for any morally deficient criminals.

neither should you.
it is the rampant tollerance of harmfull factors that has infected the moral compass of the modern world and that makes us become apologists for reprehensible actions.
This is a video game forum so im not bringing up the examples for the most reprehensible crimes on this list but you probably know what im talking about.

But its bad enaugh that worker exploitation, tax evasion, wage dumping and spying on your allies have become treated as basically schoolyard pranks instead of serious offenses.

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