Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General BG3's... Complexity.

From my perspective, I start a character with the end in mind upon creation of what I want my final character to be. I also sometimes play a character that I wouldn't normally play, just to change things up abit. Most of the time I like to play magic-user types.

About complexity:

In BG1+2 you chose your class, stats and profiencies at character creation.
From then on you can only spend profiency points and thief skills, nothing else.
The only exception is dual class for humans and this you must plan from the start because of stat requirements and at what level you want to do it.
Well, and spells for sorcerers, that is very importent.
Yes, BG1+2 has trap choices.
A mage with low int, great, you will never learn new spells because you fail to copy it from a scroll.
OK, maxing out the main stats for your class is not really a secret that is hard to find out.
Well, but do you think a mage -> fighter dual class is as good as a fighter -> mage?

In BG3 you will have multi classing.
At every level up you can chose what class to take (there may be stat requirements).
You have to select a subclass for each class and some casters have to select new spells every level up.
Every 4 levels you chose between a stat upgrade or a feat.
So I think DnD 5E has more options than DnD2E but less than DnD 3E or pathfinder.

I have the alpha for the new pathfinder game.
Without any spoilers, when I started character creation I was struck with analysis paralysis.
You have tons of classes and many subclasses for each class, plus tons of feats and lots of unique abilities to select for each class.
After looking through the options for some time I got a headache and quit playing.
Later I started the game again, ignored everything and just re created a character that worked in P:K.
I think there can be too much complexity.
I can understand why nerds love DnD 3E or pathfinder, but I can also understand when many players complain that this is too much for them and they feel lost when they get the task to create a good char.
Having a choice is good, but knowing the pros and cons of hundrets of classes (if you count the subclasses), which ability you get at which level, what works together with something else and so on can be too much sometimes.

Madscientist, you don't need to have a min max pun pun character to beat this types of games on normal. You can pick the class that you like and think that is cool and play with it. Even do pure RP builds.

BG3 might have multi-classing, but with a level cap of 10, it will be really questionable if it's worth bothering with for anything except Warlock 2 - 8 Something Else. If you take a third level in any class, then - rules as written - you will miss out on the level 8 Feat/Ability Score Increase. Most classes get their cool archtype with features at level 3.

Well, I prefer to have the options, even if it's overwhelming. Maybe gives you vertigo at the start, but if you only have limited options that´s all you have forever; if you have lots of options to customize your character maybe it will take more time to get used to it, but when you do, you will have many many ways of making your perfect character. There are people that pick the pre-made characters and there are the ones that want to spend 3 hours changing sliders to make the perfect one. To one its own, I suppose.

As Sorcerer said, you don´t have to make a powergamey build or be a nerd to beat the PF games, you can make perfectly playable builds without min-maxing unless you are playing the hardest difficulties, the same as you can make a perfectly fun and playable warrior in 5e without Polemaster+sentinel, etc.

I´ve beaten the first game with a party of 5 bards and with a solo kineticist. I even made a halfling naked two-hander because I can and I didn´t have to quit middle-game.

Ability score is based on player level, not character class level iirc.

They are tied to class level. That said, you can take 4 / 6 and still get both.
Fighter gets them at 4/6/8. Everyone else is 4/8.

Extra attack features are also tied to class levels and do not stack with multi classes, so with only 10 levels the limit is in 2 attacks per turn (Fighters got the third attack at the unattainable level 11) so to get the best it´s advisable to go 6 levels in a class that gives you extra attacks for warrior types to get more strikes per turn (most classes got that at level 5 or 6 for some bards), and 4/6, 2/8 or even 1/9 for other multiclass builds depending on the classes (Some subclasses are chosen at level 1 like clerics, some at level 2 like druids and many more at level 3)

PD: With only 10 levels I think I´ll go for non-multiclass builds for my first runs in the games, personally.

Just checked, you're right. And that is stupid; ability improvement should always be based on total character level and not class level, IMO. I would definitely homebrew that if I ran any games.

I usually do that, I found it stupid too.

I also use some extra rules, like a low-level feat at level one. I found out that if not, you get parties with 6 variant humans o.O
Of course, the feats are separated by level, you cannot get the OP feats at level one. It makes no sense that feats like war caster, ritual caster, lucky or resilient are treated the same as (let´s call them) more situational feats like actor, perceptive or keen mind. People do not take them even if that can be fun to play because you have to forfeit another feat or stat increase to get them.
And honestly, the ability to mimic someone´s voices is not going to unbalance your campaign and can give you some unforgettable scenes.

I am currently using some variant rule to allow to choose feat/ability or an extra attunement slot because in long-lasting high-level parties with lots of loot they cantá use half their loot due to atunement slot constraints, and sometimes they found it more interesting to have improved equipment when they maxed stats. I also had to create some campament and downtime rules, teaching rulesets, etc.

To be honest, I had to homebrew the sh....t out of the 5e campaign to give my players more options because they found the lack of character creation options boring. It never happened to me in any ruleset frame I played, more so in one that has 5 years of development.

I am currently switching to PF2e, It seems more attuned to our tastes.

I have 8 builds on D&D Beyond I want to eventually play after full release. Only two are single class, an Enchantress, and a Light Domain Cleric. And I may mix 2 levels of Evoker in with the Cleric. Most are 1-2 level dips, but 1 is split 5 Hexblade/ 5 Abjurer. That is IF Hexblade ever makes it in the game. I have one that is Death Domain Cleric 1/ Necromancer 9. But if we get an expansion that only goes to level 15, I'll consider taking the Cleric levels to 6.

I though Rogue got them at 4, 8, and 10. Doesn't help with multi-classing though.

Any caster who stops at level 6 will miss out on 4th level spells (and obviously 5th level spells too).

Also, certain feats require you to be at a certain level? Where's that in the rules, I don't see it.

I wouldn't be getting your hopes up about being able to make the same types of builds as you can on D&DBeyond.

It's under each of the class descriptions under ability score improvements. Oh I'm well aware of what I would give up with some builds, by stopping short. Wizards have always been my favorite class, and I've been playing them for over 40 years. For instance I'm working on a Red Dragon Sorcerer 8/ Evocation Wizard 2. I would lose 5th level Arcane spells (but not the slots). I would also just come up short of adding 2 2nd level spells to my Wizard's spell book. But I would gain Sculpt Spell, which really fits. And I get both of my ability score/feats. With the Warlock 5/ Wizard 5, I just decided the Armor of Agathys + Arcane Ward, Devil Sight + Darkness, and Improved Pact Blade was worth sacrificing 4th and 5th level spells. Though I'm still not set on it. Banishment works really well with this build. Dang we need a level cap of 12.

This lv cap = 10 is limiting too much the freedom of class building from the players.

Not only in multiclassing, but some great features of some classes are also lost because they are over level 10. With only a level cap of one level more, 11 you can have the warlocks´ mystic arcanum, artificer´s spell-storing item, fighter´s third extra attack, rangers´ and monks archetype feature and rogue´s reliable talent... and I supposse we will never get to see any level 6th caster spell unless it´s in a scroll.


Oh, no, it´s a homebrew I made, if that´s what you are asking because I allow a free feat at level 1 and if I do not create a list of feats with level limits all the players will take war caster, arcane secrets, sentinel or lucky at level one =P and those are not meant for low-level parties, usually; and to encourage´em to try feats that people often don´t use and can be fun for your character.

>you dont minmax pathfinder
you dont, but you should avoid trap builds.

Pathfinder got a few difficulty spikes and while you can easily make some realy stupid builds and thrive, its also very esay to create characters that do virtually nothing despite looking fine on paper to someone who doestn know how the system works by hand.

That what happened to me in P:K.
I did lots of reading before playing because P:K was the first time I heared about pathfinder ever.
Then I thought of a char who tried to stack as many bonusses as possible.
The char had a good defense, but it did single digit damage for most of the game.
In pathfinder there is no medium defense. Either your AC is very high or everyone can hit you all the time.
And then come enemies with touch attack who ignore most of your armor types.
This high defense char should also get mirror image and displacement because some enemies still hit like a truck with normal attacks (5% crit chance, but crit not confirmed)
And this defensive fortress should also do some damage because you have to kill all enemies to win a fight and more damage means enemies have less time to damage you.

For me this means for any pathfinder game or BG3 (which will be my first DnD 5E game)
Take a single class character who focusses on doing one thing very good ( In case of BG 3 I chose either lore bard or hexblade warlock if we get it).
If you have a great idea about mixing several classes together, ask other people if they think it will work before you start playing.

I think you are mixing the tabletop PF game with the PF videogame here.

They have some differences, they have things in common, but they are not the same. The tabletop has more skills, spells, classes, mounted combat, crafting, downtimes etc and the combat and skillchecks are more hard and unforgiving in the game than in most Pathfinder APs.

I supposse BG3 and a D&D 5e game will be different too because they are made for different media.