Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General gameplay criticism today 18.6.20

Goes to show that these things do have a certain subjectivity to them. I've always loved the color palette in DA:I, and in fact generally love how that game looks. I'm guessing it ultimately comes down to games like DA:I and TW3 adopting a more medieval look whereas BG3, based on D&D 5e artwork as has been discussed elsewhere, adopting a more renaissance look. I strongly dislike the renaissance look, even in the real world.

I'm so tired of talking with you...As I said previously, call it how you want.
You're right, cartoony is not the good word... Can we continue talking about the game ? Was this just the words you waited to read before starting any kind of... constructive things ?
Maybe I'm the troll ?

When I say poetic, I mean the way graphics are a part of a story and contribute to enhance the experience you're living.
Imagine writting/reading a book with a visual support... Books are less popular than cinema today, that's probably why those graphics (effects, color, lights,...) are so bling bling.

Another of gamedesign choices I don't like related to what our eyes see when looking at the game (that should maybe enjoy the D&D fans) ? Why the hell does a fireball ignit everything in it's area of effect ? (even rocks, soil and sand)
That's also a part of "realism". Maybe you don't call it "bling bling" or "realistic" ? Ok no problem, call it whatever you want too, but don't tell me I'm wrong if I don't like it for a Baldur's Gate game or if you don't understand.
Is there DoT on the fireball's targets or when you move in it's AoE after it's done in the rules ? I can't find something like that, but I'm not an expert I have to admit it.
Whatever the answers, I don't like that so I'm sure you'll understand it's not a problem with the choosen words or something else.

Of course things can burn...
It's not a problem with environment interactions... I totally love that concept but if it's too much, it ruins the feelings of living a story and bring us into an action cinema movie.
That's not what I like but you can like it. No problem.

Of course I could give you many others details like that but it"s not constructive.
A constructive discussion should be about how to find a way to please you and I.

That's what I try to do in another topic about shhht, "the thing we can't talk about" that was locked yesterday.

All I said, you can read it in others topic written by others, maybe with differents words.
I hope Larian will try to hype EVERYONE during it's EA. Stop thinking every differents opinions are wrong and argue about everythings you're not agree with.
You are no more than those you spit on everywhere.

You can answer, you'll have the latests words

Style over Fidelity is something i agree with. hence why i prefer PF:Ks graphical presentation to original sins (by which i mean less normal maps, hand drawn textures and some very good UI design that evokes a medieval storybook vibe)
graphics move forward and ofthen style is saccrificed in pursuit of photorealism

>fireball igniting everything
its less ridiculous than in Original sin, tho i t guess adding different modifiers to which surfaces can and cannot burn would be lots of strain on the system

and well what can i say.
I find this all very amusing.

I actually liked that detail in the gameplay. that´s what you think it´s going to happen when you hear "Fireball!" Not a magical fire that burns everything and magically disappears with no effect.
In fact, the description of the spell says "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame.The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area"

I always found lacking that in most games magical fire leaves no trace after vanish. That also gives fireball some utility to create pathways and destroy barriers.

I totally agree it's a very good thing that things can burn. It has to be visual but also a gameplay element in specific cases.
But what about totally unrealistics and overpowered elements I pointed at ? Can u live with that ?

I really think the D&D description suits better : "It ignites flammable objects in the area" (and don't forget) "that aren’t being worn or carried".
Random outside grounds and bodies aren't objects.

You should die if all your body was in flame. Of course it doens't mean you don't have burns on your body? These are the instant D&D rules damages

- Visual effects about grounds exists but they dissapear when the "surface" dissapear. It could be cool for them to stay.
- I think totally inflammed surfaces for a complete turn with additionnal damage is way too powerfull and irrealistic when you're in short grass or on a stone.
- This is obviously not the same when you're burning highly flammable surfaces. These should continue burning for 1 turn or more.
=> Of course, if you're against burning objects or you're walking on an ignited surfaces, you should take those additionnal damages.

This would give the game more RP and more strategy because you'll have to find a way to create additionnal damages, it wouldn't be automatic when you're playing with fire.

Of course I like the idea of destroyed things with fire but I think Larian should first stay limited by the rules first and then add their own cool mecanics to complete the players possibilities.
Actually it looks like it's D&D rules + Larian's rules at the same time, which leads to incoherent situations.

I could as another exemple talk about the fire bow because you put your hand and your bow in fire. Not sure this is really how D&D works about magic weapons and their ammunitions (correct me if I'm wrong).

Honestly didn´t read all your post, but I´ll say the same as always.

You have your preferences, like any gamer in this forum, I get that, but I really don't think Larian should make a game that caters to what is clearly a very very specific set of demands. I would rather they focus on making a game that is as finely tuned as possible for the great majority of playthroughs as opposed to making a set of options that try to draw in a particular group fans with extremely particular tastes.

Most of the changes in the 5th edition of D&D were to make it more inclusive and newbie-friendly, less elitist. I hope this game will follow that spirit and made a game that many people will enjoy, not only a particular group with particular preferences.

Why are you talking about a specific groups of fan with particular preferences ?
What is harder for new players to understand in what I said ?

You even didn't read my message! Seriously what the hell is this forum...

I read enough of your over-the-top posts for today, and I honestly think you should take a breather of the forum and come in a few days with a clear mind and we can have a friendly discussion about any subject you want.

That close anything that could be "constructive"
Don't forget you're not living here. If you have nothing to say, just say nothing or come back in a few days...

One can also use post game effects and tune color saturation down, it sounds like ha ha funny funny, but it does take "cartoonish" like away in many cases. May work, people should try if they feel it is too colorful. I typically play with this game to game to my liking.

You can tell this Stream was a success when even the Codex is pretty optimistic about the game. Well, most of it.


That said, I'm one of those of the firm belief that the game that eventually trumps the original BGs won't quite look 100% like it. BG rocked my boat because it was something pretty fresh and new in the spring of 1999. Just copying all of ist mechanics and presentation won't do. What will do is adopting the mindset and philosophy that Bioware (back then) were about: Trying to bring pen&paper to a computer screen. And in that regard, both Larian and Old-Bioware seem to be on a very similar page.

This is coming from someone who's only ever played DOS1, and was pretty mixed about it (map design, overly restrictive level gating, inventory management and overly apparent focus on Co-Op, writing and encounter design later in the game being the main bugbears).

Yeah, Dos is an acquired taste, you better try Dos2 first or use the Epic encounters mod. =P

I think Larian always does a fine job in making interesting and interactable maps to explore, they just needed a solid ruleset to back up and balance the combat and character creation, and I hope they found it in the alliance with WOTC.

Until now they seem to be keen on following most of the guidelines of D&D5e, with some adaptations to a different media: a videogame; so I have high hopes with this game.

I will reserve my opinion about the story, dialogues and characters until we have more information, but right now the plot seems unusually interesting.

Dos may be an acuired taste, I personally think it is a pretty mediocre game* in single-player outside of the combat system and a few of the encounters (and even the encounters later on can get pretty repetitive). I would have enjoyed it probably more as a straight forward tactics game like Blackguards, with an added focus on unique encounters, as the "exploration" (or rather the Illusion thereof) really is part of a combat puzzle in itself (what area to go next at my level, and how to beat the enemies there). It's pretty blatant from everything shown so far that BG3 is going to be a very different and probably very exciting game though -- one that includes avoiding some combat altogether and map design which isn't that strictly level gated, apparently. E.g. not this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=635229367

Can't wait to try it, and may even try DOS2 one day.


* albeit an important one: demonstrating that turn-based combat can also still work, commercially

No offence, but the guy that made that map have no idea of the game and where to find the XP or equipment faster or do not know how to make a proper effective build for Dos1 (Fire twins boss at level 9 LOOOOOOL) o.o



What? TB games have nothing to prove commercially. They´re a success.

Without even talking about the obvious FF; The third best-selling RPG franchise is Dragon quest, 81 millions worldwide ( doubles the witchers sales, 26 million more than Elder scrolls games). Dragon Quest XI, launched in 2019 sold over 4 million copies worldwide, and they are still TB games.
And let us talk about Shin megami tensei, Persona (11.1 million) Yo-kai watch (13 million) or Mana (12.3 million)
Octopath traveler, Ni no kuni, The "Tales of" series, Fire emblem, Fate etc... All games from no more than 2 years ago, all TB games and all with over a million sales. even DOS games in their niche had respectable sales.

In fact, if you take away North-America from the picture, half of the list of best-selling franchises are TB-games. TB games sold poorly...in USA.

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best_selling_RPG_games
https://twinfinite.net/2018/11/heres-how-dragon-quest-xi-sales-rank-vs-other-popular-jrpgs-this-gen/


...And the indisputable best-selling franchise of all times of any category is a turn-based game and always was. Yeah, it´s Pokemon.

Each area still has enemies of a distinct level each -- and oftenly, they are placed such on the map that they act as road blocks. Additionally, if you don't defeat most of them, later on you will lack the levels to progress. Levels are hugely important on this game, as they scale harshly, even for items (a Level 2-3 sword may make multiple times the damage than a level 1 sword -- luckily on D&D things work a little differently).



Prior to DOS, not for classic, Western RPGs though. Even Larian had admitted that every time they had proposed doing a TB game prior to going fully independent, they had to buckle under publisher pressure. TB combat was seen as a no-no-no for a very long time as far as Western RPGs are concerned…

Ever since, even real-time games get TB modes (Pillars Of Eternity, the upcoming Pathfinder). That's quite a turnaround. It's almost come full circle though, as Obsidian seem to suspect that their RtwP system isn't as commercially viable anymore as in the heydays of real-time strategy games (which Bioware back then were big time inspired by). I had quite a bit of fun in Deadfire playing in real-time (with pause), too. For diversity's sake, exclusively TB games wouldn't be a good thing either.

Only if you do not like TB games. I´m ok with it he he.
There was no diversity in Western RPG games for a long time either. All of them were diablo-like RT RPGs or MMORPGs so I do not think the fault is in the existence of an increased supply of TB-based titles in the market. There were almost no western RPG with RTwP nor TB games before anyway. I think that´s simply a bias.



As I said before, TB games proved to be commercially successful (Overwhelmingly so in markets like the Asian or European markets) so it´s logic that many studios find investors or kickstart supporters easily and are able to publish their titles at last. Now it seems we have some interesting games in the oven.
Solasta, Realms Beyond, Stygian, Trails of cold steel III, knights of the Chalice 2, Ash of Gods, Wasteland 2, etc...
Asian developers always had plenty of well-made, superb TB titles that sold very well, but it´s good to have western RPGs that are not action RPG or diablo-like.


I hope titles like Owlcat´s pathfinder WoTR or Black Geyser will be a success and soon give us another golden age of the RTwP games like the one that TB has now.




Yeah, DoS and Divinity 2 ED and Divinity 2: FT use harder enemies to separate zones instead of story-blocks. They changed that in DoS2.
I´ve got more than 1000h in DoS and the proper skills, consumables and battle placement are far more important than your levels. Unlike DoS2, DoS1 enemies`amour does not allow them to resist debuffs.


D&D 5e is not very equipment-dependant, and Larian is using the character creation, combat mechanics and loot tables of 5e until now, as seen in the gameplay. There are very powerful magic items, indeed, but the game is balanced so a 10-15lvl party with basic armour and weapon could be competitive against most monsters. Unlike 4e, the encounters are not balanced for a party that has +X armour and weapons and all equipment slots filled.
There was even a variant rule in 4e where your party will level-up his proficiencies when levelling up as if they have levelled items equipped for low-magic campaigns.

Is anyone else interested about the lack of Companion characters that are Good aligned? We've got a vamp, a shadow priest, a wizard studying shadow magic that wants to be all powerful, a warlock who made a devil pact, and gith who is morally dubious.

I'm a little concerned that if I play a paladin the whole party will abandon me or turn on me. XD lol

I'm also concerned about the lack of Good aligned characters. So far all the focus has been on the evil alignments. I think it might have been mentioned that Gale was good aligned, but he hasn't had more than a few lines of dialogue, and nothing terribly enlightening.

My opinion about the latest video:

I think this will be the best game in the history of classic RPGs.
PST and Disco Elysium will probably stay on top in terms of story, but this is the best "normal" RPG I have seen so far, even in its pre alpha stage.

good:
- I like the graphics, but it looks like I have to buy a new computer to run it.
Swen sain they are not sure if any console can run it, but he also did not expect that they can run D:OS2 on a switch.
- The new writing style is better then the old one.
- Individual initiative instead of team initiative.
- Tons of options and exploration. I like that you can try so many different things, both in dialogue and in the world.
In the interview video, throwing poison into food from the distance impressed me.
It is also good that there are many ways to avoid combat.
- Looks like there is no timer for the main quest. Swen returned to rest in a safe area several times. The chars tell you to hurry up, but it looks like resting has no downsides, only using the toadpole does.
- Lots of interactions with the environment, but less extreme than D:OS2. The whole map is not covered in necrofire after every fight.
- Light/darkness, torches and darkvision really make a difference.

bad:
- Dash, jump and some other normal activities look a bit too flashy sometimes.
- Transferring items or changing equipment during combat feels a bit off.
- The chain mechanic of D:OS is bad. Why not control chars like in the IE games.
- The UI could be better, but we are still in pre alpha.
- I like that spell effects are less extreme as in D:OS2, but there were some examples I did not like. When they enter the village a goblin shoots a fireball at them ( I guess its a fireball, else it makes no sense at all.) Then the ground is burning and at least one character takes burning damage over time when he climbs the roof. There is no oil or other stuff that can burn around. It would be normal that a fireball ignites oil and damages objects. But it should not cause damage over time on characters and it should not ignite solid ground.
Most other spells were good, however.

I think someone said it ignited a barrel of fire wine, which coated everything around with the flammable liquid.