Larian Studios Forums General Chat The Adorant

No one's asking you to insert gratuitous kung-fu fighting and swordplay, I'm sure. I enjoy good dialogue as much as the next person, when the dialogue reveals something about the characters, the plot, or is spiced up with wit, bantering, or intrigues. As it is, however, there's no tension as a backdrop for the conversation between the goddess and the Adorant at all. It's so deadpanned, and there's no hook to draw my interest in.



Nevertheless, a passive male is what you got. As for the goddess? She's just childish, and doesn't even remotely seem divine to me. Reminds me a bit of Ed Greenwood's and his Seven Sisters, really.



Exactly why I said it comes across as didactic. IMO, if the author is consciously putting in some kind of theme or symbolism, the end result is almost always like that, or even worse, flat out pretentious -- the story should be able to stand on its own as a story, not an outlet for the author's wish to preach. It's also a lot more long-winded than it needs to be; cut out the redundant descriptions, and the story would be about half its current length, if that. Brevity is always the key.



...I rather fail to see how thinking of it as a painting makes it any different. A story with vivid imagery, metaphors, similes and interesting diction would be like a nice painting, sure, but...

Well, if you think he is passive, you can do so. I leave this up to the reader's interpretation.

Upon the Goddess I've already received heavy criticism in the German fan-base.

The general critics actually misses the point :

I DIDN'T want to show what YOU think is "divine" or a "Divinity". I wanted to show what I think it could be in this special continent.

This IS no Goddess which is "divine" in ANY way you think she SHOULD be. In fact, she is *very* "natural", human-like. If you think she is "childish", well, at least then I've succeeded in my point transforming your view.

ALL Gods in the continent are very apart from what you think "high fantasy" or even "normal" fantasy is. They are and act very human-like, so to say. You would probably call them not Gods, but rather demi-gods, but from my point o view you just call them this way because youir view is limited - limited on a cliché how Gods should be.

I won't say that I'm a perfect or even good writer. I am proud of some stories, but only because I write them for me, witrh my heart, and therefore they are appealing to me. The Adorant is currently my favourite one (apart from the love story).

I think I must stress this - I like the story because it's written the way I like it - and no-ne else. To me, even the Adorant isn't really that passive, apart from the fact that he does only talk and doesn't perform any actions. My story consists entirely of two "people" sitting together on two chairs and talking nothing more. No actions required. Only talk. And where there is no action involved, I can concentrate on what I really want to say, o express, and I still think I've made a fairly good job out of this, as I intended it.

Another aspect / intention of my story always was to show just another Goddess of the Continent - and therefore shopw how much diversity there actually is - even among Gods.

They don't have "divine powers" as you traditionally might know or expect, they are immortal, but apart from that they can be weak, they can forget, they have memories, god ones and bad ones. One Goddess was even after the "Great War" (an element I admit I borrowed from Tolkien) so weak that she needed milliennia to recover. She is a very special case : I modelled her partly after the sorceress Shakti from the game Sacrifice, and that means she "lives" in a shell that looks like a giant, but yet beatuful insect. She did so, to recover, and she helped so much in the "healing" after the "Great War", that she was simply exhaused. I've written a small story around her, explaining that. On the Continent, she is the Goddess of Love, Dance and so on, more or less.

I've already translated the precessor of The Adorant, and I think I should put it online to clarify my very own view of the Continent and its inhbitants. What's actually shown in the Adorant story is nothing but a small glimpse of a remote town which is not typical for the Continent.

I've written more in German than I want to translate, because it needs time. If you are capable of German, I can send you the rest, if you wish so (and especially if you have some kind of translator program <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> ) .

Alrik.

Uhm. It isn't a question of what it is like to be divine. It stands to reason that a being that is ageless, and has the powers of a diety, has a rather different perspective on things. Just the mere fact that this diety has a desire to be worshipped, should mean something.

What exactely do these dieties of you do, anyways? Why are they worshipped? There is nothing about the motivation of the Adorant in the story. He worships this diety, because she is a diety. Well, that's rather two-dimensional. There's no real motivation.



Yes, rather the same as with the dieties of the Greek pantheon. However, even though these Gods are flawed, they certainly don't seem childish. Vain, vindictive, and irrational, yes. But certainly not ignorant of their own powers. You say they are immortal, then it is reasonable to expect that in all these years they've developed intelligence and wisdom, right?

Well, I don't really think she wants to be worshipped. Who said she would ?

I think I meade it clear in the story that the people do so - regardless whether she wants it or not.

I think this is rather a form of Symbiosis : She "lives" there, in that town at the coast, and protects the people as far as she is able to. The people thank her for that, by worshipping, I think, but she doesn't really care. It's nice to her, but she doesn't really cares about that.

Like the fact that, I don't know, she appears to someone who is paying homage to her?

Word of advice: next time, if you only want glowing praises, you could've, you know, put a warning at the beginning of the story. Saves time, if you're going to brush off every non-positive critique.

Alrik...

An interesting idea, but I think giving your characters names would have helped.

The idea that The Adorant could really be anyone (Which I presume is the reason he is not named) is defeated by the Goddess (Who - as one of many - should also be named, at least by her worshippers, to avoid confusion) who singles him out as being a very special person in her eyes.

A named character is also far easier for the reader to identify with, and as you are not actually trying for an air of mystery here there is no reason not to give a name.

Just a few thoughts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

@Winterfox : I read out of your last remark that you still have problems with my overall concept.

@Elliot_Kane : Yes, names would've helped. I noticed it at some point, too, but decided not to use names. I still don't know why - also, the Gods of the Continents rarely have or reveal "real" names. Except of that briefly mentioned story every DGod or Goddess on the Continent actually uses the name given by their worshippers.

Just another example : In a fantasy environment, one could easily worship Gandals or Sauron, because they are special. Or someone would even try to worship Galadriel or the High Elves (like Frodo and Sam almost do).

That's the point : The Gods of the Continent aren't so very special, at least they don't believe themselves to be so, they are simply Gods (who would like to gather in an Inn, if they could) very human-like, although I didn't have the ancient greek gods in mind while writing my stories, they are the ones in the mythology I know of which come closest to the Gods of the Continent.

People create names for things as fast as they encounter them. It's just what people do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A named thing is a known thing - hence more understandable and less frightening <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You need a name for 'The Continent' too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It doesn't sound lived in without one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Very true. Any exceptional being with powers beyond mortal comprehension would tend to generate a cult of some kind at worst, and a full-blown religion at best. Or get feared, persecuted and hunted... We humans are a strange lot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



Most of the ancient pantheons are very, very human in their actions and thoughts. There is nothing wrong with this approach at all, IMO. The idea of a deity being perfect and unknowable in every respect is a relatively modern one, and only rarely useful to a fiction writer in any event. Perfect beings can't ever get it wrong you see <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The one question that does occur to me, though, is why don't the gods think themselves to be very special? What is out there that makes them think that? (And how many stories could you get from the mortals finding out <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />)

My point is that the Goddess in the story rewards a devout servant of hers with her blessing. Surely, if she didn't care one way or another about being worshipped, she wouldn't have bothered.

As for your comment about Gandalf and Sauron. I am sure Sauron's minions must've thought of him as on an equal level of a diety. Should Sauron have asked them to worship him, they likely would. But instead, Sauron orders them to conquer Middle-Earth for him. Since, after all, that's a better use of recources. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

As for Gandalf; I doubt he would have *allowed* people to worship him. I am quite sure he would be appaled by the thought. That's why it doesn't happen. If he had wanted to, I am sure with all his powers he could have made people believe him to be a diety, and worship him.

See, that is the thing. People do not simply worship dieties because they are dieties. They worship them out of fear, or awe. They worship the Goddess of fertility in the hopes of getting good crops, or the God of the heavens because they fear otherwise they will be struck down by lightning.

You say your Goddess protects them, but exactly why does she protect them? I mean, what are they, to her? The normal relation between a diety and lesser mortals, is that the diety provides protection, for which she is worshipped in return. If you want to substitute that with a completely new, original concept, that's fine.

But in that case, give good motivation for the Goddess to protect the people living on this coast. If she doesn't do it for their admiration, what does she do it for? The kindness of her heart? Unlikely. I mean. Think about this; imagine being a diety. Imagine that the passing of a century is like the blink of an eye. Why would you then care about the short livespans of mortals?

That's why the vanity displayed by the Gods of the Greek pantheon works. Their craving for people to worship them gives them motivation to give, or withhold their blessing.

As I wrote, the Goddess there settled down to "live" there, *long* before any town was built there! She might even be still there when all towns are gone ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Some of the first people arriving there began to notice her and eventually began zto worship her.

"Well," she might have thought", "they are worshipping me, although I haven' done a thing for them ? Well, someone who is so trsustful must be rewarded in a way." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> This is how it might have happened. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I'm going to Berlin in the next hours for the rest of the weeks, so I can't answer your replies anymore. At the end of the week I'll look into this thread, if I can. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

Alrik.

I have less problem with your concept than with your execution of it, or the way you brush off criticism with a "Oh, you know, your view is so cliched, so you can't possibly comprehend my innovative and original take on it" attitude.

Additionally, if your goddess is going to act like a vacant-headed schoolgirl, is there a point in making her a goddess at all? Shouldn't a deity be distinguishable from a mortal, personality wise?

Alrik, although Whitefox may have all the subtly and diplomacy of a shark attack, she does have valid points which are worth taking on board. I think it’s great that you’ve got all your back history worked out and have some idea of Who? What? Why? Where? This is important for creating a good grounding for your stories. It is certainly very admirable that you are attempting to be creative in another language, because god knows most people struggle to do that in their native one!

What you need to concentrate on most is form and structure. As Winterfox mentioned you are very repetitive in your information giving, and while information on the sights, sounds, smells etc. of a place are important for creating an emotive mental picture, too much information (especially if it’s repeated) can annoy the reader. While you’re trying to master the form I’d suggest that for now, less is more. Although, if you want to see an example of lots of information used to produce an incredible emotive sensory picture then try reading Perfume, by Patrick Suskind.

In fact, I’d say reading is the most important thing a writer can do, aside from actually getting something down on paper. It can help you recognise the styles that certain writers adopt, the words and phrases they use, how they structure their sentences, how they approach dialogues etc. Reading around your subject, for example history, folklore, science, ecology can also be a big inspiration and widen your overall knowledge pool.

Hope that is of some help

Repeating one information in various words/phrases is sometimes a method to stress something and bring in nuances - used in some (German) novels. What else can I say <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" /> - I read Alrik's story in English and German, some of the atmosphere got lost. Guess, it's not only a matter of translation, but difference in cultural language, too.

It's strange, when I write in German, I don't like my English translation anymore (specially when I use the old fashioned way of German fairy tales) - and vice versa => what I write in English, sounds terrible to me after translation. And nope, I don't write for public, I do it for my own pleasure and sometimes a bit as a self-therapeutical method.

And I saw Alrik's story as a way to show a bit of himself, his way to see the world => doesn't this need a gentle approach? Just as a form of respect towards the inner world of a writer? Not meaning suggestions now, these add to "painting" a pic - I'm talking about cutting a story apart, like in a hospital. Scalpel is cold intellectualism - the shark with 1-5 rows of teeth (nice pic, Rhianna <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> ) - and the story is bleeding? Or the writer is?
Kiya <thinking>

Oh, being multi-lingual myself, I know that translating your writing from one language to another can be absolutely hellish.

Which is why I don't do it. Ever.

If I'm setting out to entertain two audiences that speak different languages, I'd write two separate versions. The two would, naturally, share the same plot/characters and such, but the wording simply wouldn't be the same, because there are certain things that will never make the transition without suffering major damage (idioms, for one).

Yes, I tried that in 2 stories (rewriting) , Winterfox => but the message was lost. Or to be exact, I couldn't see in one story what I thought was transported into the other one. Result => I threw both versions away.

What I have a done a bit => group writing, that was fun - but: I didn't write freely, didn't reveal as much, because I knew, other eyes would read it.

I've never co-written with anyone, heh. The prospect seems rather painful to me.

If you have the right writing partner, it is a good thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Moreover, you really do learn far more about the craft itself that way as both of you have to really understand what you are doing.

The only way to work with a writing partner is if you share the same vision for a story/characters, though. Too much compromise, and the vision is lost. Your story would then suffer.

It's a technique used in English sometimes too, but the form is very different. The idea would be to convey a character's reaction to something rather than to stress it to the reader.

Somewhat like: "An iron spear. An iron spear? An iron spear!"

Same statement three times, but as thought/spoken by the character, should (I hope <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />) show a progressive realisation of the significance of the object in question to the character.

Something like this can also be used to show personality, at least in part. As the lines are spoken aloud, our protagonist clearly babbles a lot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but then again perhaps in topic too...

Leather_Raven (nice nick btw) is going to be a great writer one day. Perhaps she already is... Because I liked very much that thing with the shark.

On the other hand Kiya managed to speak like taking the words out of my heart about the bleeding.

Sorry for the little break ok?

Kiya...

The absolutely hardest thing in writing is somehow finding the confidence to let other people read your work. When my writing partner and I started on X-Force we absolutely expected to be torn apart by everybody and were really, really nervous. We made a lot of mistakes early on too - stuff we definitely would do differently now - but we have both learned an enormous amount about writing and gained a lot of confidence in our skills since then.

And - much to our amazement - a fair number of people actually liked what we were doing! So much so, that we have no real qualms now about trying new things and stretching ourselves as writers.

Once you get over the initial hurdle, it becomes a lot easier, believe me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />