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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235705
01/06/04 03:53 AM
01/06/04 03:53 AM
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Seattle
LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
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Any examples, if I may ask?



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235706
01/06/04 04:11 AM
01/06/04 04:11 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Any examples, if I may ask?




Oh, definitely. I've recommended a number of NWN fan-made modules. I fairly flooded the floor with saliva while gushing about KotOR. I've also recommended various authors and books on other boards; ask me and I'd be ready to give ardent praises for Dune, A Song of Ice and Fire, or The Empire Trilogy, to name but a few. And here I recommended fanfiction, again all but lavishing fangirlish attention on them.

I could go on and on, but I can't be arsed to dig through more archives at the moment. Suffice to say that if I really like the product, I won't hesitate to say positive things about it.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235707
01/06/04 08:03 AM
01/06/04 08:03 AM
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Kejero Offline
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Give her a break! What kind of attitude is that, to demand a resume from someone to justify negative critics Shame on you!
Negative critics can be a good thing, it helps an artist see flaws (s)he didn't see himself/herself.

As for Rhi's novella: haven't read it myself yet, it should be in the mail one of these days. I'm curious


Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235708
01/06/04 09:00 AM
01/06/04 09:00 AM
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Germany
Marian Offline
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Quote:

The first is the tone -- I'm unsure as to whether the novella takes itself seriously or sets out to be tongue-in-cheek. The commentaries by the gods are... cute, but I feel they detract rather than add. I couldn't take the mortal characters -- Lucian, Damian, Anlokam -- seriously, since all they are doing is being chesspieces in a show to amuse divine beings. It lessens the impact of their emotions, their characters, and their struggles. I couldn't empathize with any of them. Perhaps it's the novella's length and the need to fit the plot in under certain page count limits (not to mention deadlines), but I find the character development rather lacking. When the story can't make me care about the characters, for me, all bets are off.

The prose strikes me as... bland. I'd quote specific bits, but that'd violate the copyrights stated in the inside of the front cover. Suffice to say that the words didn't draw me in, and when I came across cliches, they jumped out at me. The frequent explanations in parentheses likewise grated. This is personal preference, but for me, if something's in brackets (as far as narrative is concerned), it shouldn't be there at all. It reminds me of in-text author's notes so often seen in a beginner's fanfiction.



I've read the novel and I must say I like it, so I just have to disagree. I know that it seems obvious why someone of Larian Studios should defend the novel but I'll try to leave the official opinion aside and just comment from a point of a fantasy game fan (who also read many fantasy series in the past twenty years) and of course hinting at some background information (there goes the nonofficial thingy again ).

If you have played you might have noticed that Rianna actually imho managed to hit the tone of exxaguerated clichčs and our special kind of humor perfectly. The way we wanted it. Thats not such an easy thing to archieve.
After all is it a supporting novel for a game where the characters, the gods and even the rough storyline had to be the way it is written now. It was probably not easy to struggle with the rest of the storyteam to get everything right and smooth. Any fanfic is way more free to write whatever they like as long they stick to some common background so i think its a little bit unfair to compare it. Given the limitations Rhianna had to start with she did a very good job. I really enjoyed reading the novel and -important as well- it fit's very well to .


Wenn sie so überlegen sind, warum sind sie dann so tot?
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Marian] #235709
01/06/04 09:30 AM
01/06/04 09:30 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

I know that it seems obvious why someone of Larian Studios should defend the novel but I'll try to leave the official opinion aside and just comment from a point of a fantasy game fan (who also read many fantasy series in the past twenty years)...




Yes, well, if the developers didn't like the novella, I imagine it wouldn't have been included.

Quote:

If you have played you might have noticed that Rianna actually imho managed to hit the tone of exxaguerated clichčs and our special kind of humor perfectly. The way we wanted it. Thats not such an easy thing to archieve.




I won't dispute that it fits. And since it's clearly intended to be that way, I'll say that I've always thought the setting of DD is extremely generic fantasy. Which is all fine and dandy: it was a fun game, and accomplishes precisely what it's supposed to do.

Quote:

After all is it a supporting novel for a game where the characters, the gods and even the rough storyline had to be the way it is written now. It was probably not easy to struggle with the rest of the storyteam to get everything right and smooth. Any fanfic is way more free to write whatever they like as long they stick to some common background so i think its a little bit unfair to compare it.




Not always. Take, for instance, KotOR fanfiction. Good fanficcers not only have to research some Star Wars tidbits; they also have to work with the established characters with distinct personalities. And so on and so forth. (Bad ones will just do whatever the hell they feel like, setting and characterization be damned.) I'll concede that fanfiction writers don't have to follow a plot guideline unless they're retelling something, but then you also have authors working in shared worlds. Forgotten Realms has got, for instance, War of the Spider Queen -- a series where various authors have to work together, using the same cast of characters and following a specific storyline. (And what amount of text on drow and other things they would have to read!) No small task, and IMO, what they've done so far is very, very good.

Of course, I don't know what restrictions exactly Ms. Pratchett (I'd feel rude to call her by her first name) had to work with, so...

You liked the novella; great. I've read a lot of fantasy fiction, too, and haunt various writing communities. I found far too many flaws with the novella to like it, so let's agree to disagree.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235710
01/06/04 11:14 AM
01/06/04 11:14 AM
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London
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You are, of course, entitled to your opinion Winterfox. It was my first piece of fiction - I just had the slightly dubious luck of getting it published - so it was never going to please everyone. Not even the best selling novels do that.

You asked about the conditions of writing it…well to start with it was originally going to be 10k in word length and would have started with Damian entering the Academy. Swen, Bron and I decided on a very rough outline of the plot at that point. Basically Damian goes here, sees X, Y and X, does this, this and this. You get the idea. It was then increased to 20k and ended up being about 21.5k. Despite the extra work, I was glad for the extension because it gave me the opportunity to fill in all the backstory for myself and invent my own aspects, such as the origins of riftrunning and the role of the gods.

It was written in quite a short time I’d say about 3, maybe 4, weeks on and off in the end, not ideal, but I ended up doing much more work on the script then was originally expected.

Anyway thanks for your comments.

Rhi


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235711
01/06/04 12:40 PM
01/06/04 12:40 PM
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Belgium
Viper Offline
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still loving it


Viper
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235712
01/06/04 01:20 PM
01/06/04 01:20 PM
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USA
Faralas Offline
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Quote:

Your so lucky! *pout*


Rhianna , from what I've heard it sounds really good, and I can't WAIT till I get my fan pack (still haven't gotten my email for the personal message from Krill or anything! ) but Winterfox is just a big critic on anything, I'd like to see the product she didn't say was lousy. No offense ment to either, just telling you how she is.




Lews, I didn't mean to start a 'prove your point discussion' when I posted my thoughts on Winterfox's quick opinion of the novella and I certainly didn't expect Winterfox to feel obligated to expand that opinion by leaving an indepth critique (which was quite constructive, IMVHO).

I don't read fanfiction and I've never taken on the type of project where I was asked to write a short story (later to be expanded into a novella) using another person's or developer's concept. Therefore, I'm not really qualified to post my opinions on that subject. However, I do appreciate the fact that WF took the time to elaborate on why he/she felt the novella lacked 'heart'. It's apparent WF is familiar with how to give constructive feedback.


Faralas *who hopes this message makes sense. She wrote it without the benefit of having her first cup of coffee*




Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235713
01/06/04 01:43 PM
01/06/04 01:43 PM
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Here, my Dear -
Kiya

As to the topic, my own XP/belief as a humble librarian, not worth kissing high literature critic's shoes => a story, a novel - fiction in general - is an invitation from the author to the reader. An invitation to join the world of imagination, and the author functions as a sort of travel guide. As tastes about journeys vary a great deal, so does taste in this case, too.

This is what I tell my members - if they blush and admit, they'd prefer a book, not actually in world literature clouds, quake in their shoes and expect me to wrinkle my nose in disgust. Who am I to tell a member what she/he has to read? Who am I to judge what is good/bad? High/low? Fantasy in general is not considered a very "high" leveled genre in literature circles - so what? If a novel has provided one person with fun - it has served its purpose - and if not? Well, another book might do then.

Don't worry, I'll stop now - this is a very old combat I fight against literature critics and colleagues for many years now.

As to your novel, Rhianna => I liked it. I like every story, where pictures are painted, I even see them and I can delve into this world. I smiled, I giggled at several parts - and I even understood it (English not being my natural language) - you "spoke" my language, thus creating a bond between your words and my imagination - what more can a novel do? Hm?
Kiya

Forgot one thing => I didn't read it as part of BD - I read it as a work of its own.

Last edited by kiya; 01/06/04 01:52 PM.
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235714
01/06/04 02:46 PM
01/06/04 02:46 PM
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USA
Faralas Offline
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Quote:

Here, my Dear -
Kiya






Thanks, Kiya - Just what the doctor ordered. I'm awake!



Faralas


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235715
02/06/04 02:49 AM
02/06/04 02:49 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Rhianna Pratchett/Leather_Raven said:

Quote:

You asked about the conditions of writing it…well to start with it was originally going to be 10k in word length and would have started with Damian entering the Academy. Swen, Bron and I decided on a very rough outline of the plot at that point. Basically Damian goes here, sees X, Y and X, does this, this and this. You get the idea. It was then increased to 20k and ended up being about 21.5k. Despite the extra work, I was glad for the extension because it gave me the opportunity to fill in all the backstory for myself and invent my own aspects, such as the origins of riftrunning and the role of the gods.





Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Kiya said:

Quote:

This is what I tell my members - if they blush and admit, they'd prefer a book, not actually in world literature clouds, quake in their shoes and expect me to wrinkle my nose in disgust. Who am I to tell a member what she/he has to read? Who am I to judge what is good/bad? High/low? Fantasy in general is not considered a very "high" leveled genre in literature circles - so what? If a novel has provided one person with fun - it has served its purpose - and if not? Well, another book might do then.




I'm sure you don't mean to say that no one should express negative opinions of any given book, though.

Quote:

As to your novel, Rhianna => I liked it. I like every story, where pictures are painted, I even see them and I can delve into this world. I smiled, I giggled at several parts - and I even understood it (English not being my natural language) - you "spoke" my language, thus creating a bond between your words and my imagination - what more can a novel do? Hm?




Here's how I view things when I write. If I have evoked in my readers the emotions my story is intended to evoke, I count the mission a success (though by no means perfect); characters are paramount, because if the reader doesn't care about them, then the reader is unlikely to give a fig about their tales. Nothing makes me happier than knowing that my reader feels my character's pain, sorrow, and joy. A reviewer of mine has put it this way, and I agree with her:

Quote:

The mark of an accomplished writer isn't the plots they weave, the characters they mold, or even the fluidity of their words. While all of these are important, the single most critical aspect of a writer is their ability to draw a reader into their worlds.




Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235716
02/06/04 07:37 AM
02/06/04 07:37 AM
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kiya Offline
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Quote:

Winterfox:
I'm sure you don't mean to say that no one should express negative opinions of any given book, though



Correct - free opinion is very important. If taken and meant as singular and subjective. What I dislike about literature critics is, if they turn into popes and call out a dogma. We've got 2 main "popes" in Germany - and I've seen them rip books apart in a terrible scavenging way - was not about the plot or even the author, it was to tickle their ego, feel and express power.
I agree with the reviewer you quoted - and I think "being drawn into a world" is similar to the journey I explained - an intimate matter between author and reader => it succeeds in some cases and doesn't in others. I was drawn into the novella - you weren't => singular, subjective, c'est tout in both cases.
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235717
02/06/04 12:01 PM
02/06/04 12:01 PM
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Plowking Offline
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I've read many critically acclaimed books that where less well written as the novella.

Brian Lumly's Necroscope series being one set of books. Which I thoroughly enjoyed despite that his writing of character dialogues is an inconsistent shambles in many places to how real people should or would converse with one another.

Nor did I ever feel for any of the main characters, it was simply the story that drove me on. I'd rather feel for characters and have a story to drive me on but with all the books in the world I wonder how many would live up to each of our own individual concepts of what a book should do, convey, or make us feel. Not very many, if even any at all. No matter how much I like something, there's always something I'd change.

The short novella with its generic fantasy setting and computer game characters does exactly what it set out to do...introduce the story and world of the game. I wouldn't expect it to stand on its own merits if the game never existed, and nor do I think it is meant to.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235718
02/06/04 12:25 PM
02/06/04 12:25 PM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

I've read many critically acclaimed books that where less well written as the novella.




I've read fanfiction that I enjoy more than a great number of "critically acclaimed books." I detest many, many classics, and I loathed a novel I read recently -- a Booker Prize winner, y'know -- with an unholy passion.

Quote:

Nor did I ever feel for any of the main characters, it was simply the story that drove me on. I'd rather feel for characters and have a story to drive me on but with all the books in the world I wonder how many would live up to each of our own individual concepts of what a book should do, convey, or make us feel. Not very many, if even any at all. No matter how much I like something, there's always something I'd change.




Yes, that's very lovely and very wonderful. Didn't I keep typing "for me", "this is my personal opinion", ad infinitum? There is a reason I sprinkled my critiques with those, y'know.

Quote:

The short novella with its generic fantasy setting and computer game characters does exactly what it set out to do...introduce the story and world of the game. I wouldn't expect it to stand on its own merits if the game never existed, and nor do I think it is meant to.




I tried to look at the novella both as a standalone piece, and as a piece that complements the game. Neither attempt improved my opinions of it overmuch. Then again, my opinions of BD itself aren't very high at the moment.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235719
02/06/04 01:03 PM
02/06/04 01:03 PM
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Quote:



Yes, that's very lovely and very wonderful. Didn't I keep typing "for me", "this is my personal opinion", ad infinitum? There is a reason I sprinkled my critiques with those, y'know.







I wasn't referring nor did I accidently, to any of your comments or opinions. I was expressing my own.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235720
02/06/04 02:00 PM
02/06/04 02:00 PM
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kiya Offline
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Quote:

Winterfox:
I tried to look at the novella both as a standalone piece, and as a piece that complements the game. Neither attempt improved my opinions of it overmuch. Then again, my opinions of BD itself aren't very high at the moment.




True, you "hinted" this several times - so it's d'accord, right? (Novella+BD) - I'm looking forward to reading your result, in your personal/subjective point of view
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235721
03/06/04 12:20 PM
03/06/04 12:20 PM
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Well reading all this, I felt very attracted to express what I feel not only for the novella but for books generaly. INMHO books are magic things. You buy them, you start to read them and then all of the sudden you leave this world and get transferred to an other world. A world that it is created by an other person who is totaly unknown to you and yet that person manages to travell you, make you cry or laugh, get angry or sad. So I am totally oposite to the book critics. Because reading a book is something very personal. And like a book or not depends on many things. The emotional status the reader is in the period he is reading the book, the place and the situations he is reading it, the cause he is reading the book (educational or just for fun) and many many other. So I may read a book being in a certain condition at that time and simply love it or hate it. And that is something no critic can tell me about. Only myself. Because there are stories in this world made by people who perhaps have gone through the same things I did. And this is something only me and the author will know about it. And personally hate the critics who write in magazines or the previews/reviews writen on the net about books. Books = a relation ship. A short one. With the characters in the book and the author himself.
So in the case of the novella, I loved it. Why? Because I work too many hours and I have all these phone calls and people all around me the most of the day. And when I get home I need to have some quiet time. And the novella travelled me from my sofa to a nice quiet place. Simple as that. Personally I wouldn´t care if it did/did not fit with
. It was a story that made me see green forests and small cabins in the woods and horses etc. instead of the oposite block of flats in my apartment. And that was enough for me. And for this I thank the author.

I am sorry I am expressing things in short of simple way but you are all aware about my English.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235722
03/06/04 12:40 PM
03/06/04 12:40 PM
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Quote:

I am sorry I am expressing things in short of simple way but you are all aware about my English.




You expressed it all brilliantly Lucretia, and I don't think anyone could have done so better.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235723
03/06/04 01:07 PM
03/06/04 01:07 PM
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I usually write ... I want to tell a story, an interesting one,if possible.

Yes, it's kind of an invitation : Take part in my world, in the world I created, if you feel attracted by it, good, but I generally don't bother much about it if not.

Usually, I write for myself, therefore I don't care much about what people think. Putting my stories online (like the Adorant) is kind of a free service : You can read it if you wish to do so, but initially it's written only for myself, so I don't care much about critics.

However, I have an open ear if someone explains to me (mostly with examples) how to write better.

I generally don't like "high literature", because I often have the feeling as if these people (writers) feel superior to others - which may be fuelled by their critics. No-one builds a museum for unknown artists, but only for "arrived artists", so to say.

Additionally I don't want my own writing-style top be spoiled by the style of others, partly because people often say that "high literature" is so superior to everything else that writers should adopt that. Goethe is like a big, massive tree; but alas young plants cannot grow under the shadow of big, massive trees. I'm more for diversity.

I want to have fun with writing, that's why I write mostly, and I want to tell a story - for those who want to listen (who lend me their ear ) . I want to enhance people's lives by showing them things they wouldn't know if I wasn't there, because of the unique style I write in - which is true for every writer : Any writer develops his or her unique style of writing - and that makes Art.

I think that's my point so far.

Alrik.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplayďż˝.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235724
03/06/04 01:14 PM
03/06/04 01:14 PM
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London
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You're very welcome Lucretia, thank you for your kind words.

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