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@ Rhianna #235665
20/05/04 03:50 PM
20/05/04 03:50 PM
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At the top of the Eiffel Tower
Barta Offline OP
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Rhianna

Your novella "Child of the Chaos" is not sold alone. We can't buy it in a bookstore.
Only the people who can buy the Digital Jesters copy of Beyond Divinity can read it.

Think about all the Beyond Divinity fans in the world who would love to read it too !

Could it be possible to copy the pages of the novella and to add them to the Beyond Divinity web site ?

By this way all the people could be able to read your novella online.

Thanks

Barta

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235666
20/05/04 03:55 PM
20/05/04 03:55 PM
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it is a good read and gives you more insight in the game


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Morbo] #235667
20/05/04 04:13 PM
20/05/04 04:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
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Plowking Offline
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I wonder would larian object to a pdf made up of the novella!

Probably...I wouldn't dream of doing it without asking, of course!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235668
20/05/04 04:16 PM
20/05/04 04:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 19,669
Rogue Squadron
A
AlrikFassbauer Offline
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*sigh* I agree with Barta.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235669
20/05/04 04:19 PM
20/05/04 04:19 PM
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Morbo Offline

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*rubs salt in wound*

If you ever wanted to know the *real* name of the divine one read the book.


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235670
20/05/04 10:45 PM
20/05/04 10:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 75
London
Leather_Raven Offline
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You can buy the fanpack separately from the game. That contains the novella and a CD of Kirill's music. It's sold on this website and on the DJ one (there's an ad on Larian's homepage I think) So there is no need to buy the game twice

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235671
21/05/04 12:15 AM
21/05/04 12:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,878
Germany
Marian Offline
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Indeed. Just have a look to the upper right corner, guys...


Wenn sie so überlegen sind, warum sind sie dann so tot?
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Marian] #235672
21/05/04 01:39 AM
21/05/04 01:39 AM
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The latest news section? Darn what is wrong with me I keep up mixing left and right up.


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Morbo] #235673
21/05/04 09:50 AM
21/05/04 09:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,141
Belgium
Viper Offline
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, and I must agree here: the novella is awsome, I really enjoy reading it


Viper
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Viper] #235674
21/05/04 10:45 AM
21/05/04 10:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,519
::A dark dungeon::
LUCRETIA Offline
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Yeap the novella was great! I only feel sad about people who can not purchase it and thus they will not have any chance to read it. Pretty shame


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235675
21/05/04 11:06 AM
21/05/04 11:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,947
Planet Earth
the_bean Offline
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this novella,
do you have to read it before you play ,
or after you finished the game?


Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: the_bean] #235676
21/05/04 11:09 AM
21/05/04 11:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,519
::A dark dungeon::
LUCRETIA Offline
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You have to read it before starting

It short of connects the two games + . But even if you do not read it you can play without any problems.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235677
21/05/04 12:13 PM
21/05/04 12:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 78
Sitting on the 2.648.278 stair...
RedruM Offline
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Sitting on the 2.648.278 stair...
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!
We want PDF, We want PDF, We want PDF !!!



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: RedruM] #235678
21/05/04 01:02 PM
21/05/04 01:02 PM
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Posts: 4,205
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Morbo Offline

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*Gets weightless salt barrel out of inventory*

saying something alot doesn't make it true


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: RedruM] #235679
21/05/04 01:07 PM
21/05/04 01:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 26,322
Canada
Raze Offline

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The Larians have said the novella would be available to order from their web site for a nominal fee.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Raze] #235680
21/05/04 01:16 PM
21/05/04 01:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,205
Omicron Persei 8
Morbo Offline

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I agree with Raze a PDF would mean that Larian will miss out on some "sweet coin" or as I call it some sweet bling bling. Maybe they could release it 4 weeks before the release of ²


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Morbo] #235681
21/05/04 03:22 PM
21/05/04 03:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 21
L
lynch03 Offline
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I ordered the audio but i screwed up the order sheet. I live in the USA, and where it said county I put my county 'Will'(never been asked for a county when ordering and ive ordered alot of stuff) Well it seems that in Europe they refer to 'states' as 'counties'. It didnt ask for a state anywhere and I didn't notice that as i ordered. It already shipped to Hopefully i can get it delivered here somehow, i already let DJ know.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: lynch03] #235682
21/05/04 04:21 PM
21/05/04 04:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,095
Ghent (Belgium)
Lynn Offline

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I don't want to play the demon now, but the novella can't be put online as a pdf, it has author copyrights.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: lynch03] #235683
21/05/04 04:26 PM
21/05/04 04:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 245
USA
Faralas Offline
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Quote:

I ordered the audio but i screwed up the order sheet. I live in the USA, and where it said county I put my county 'Will'(never been asked for a county when ordering and ive ordered alot of stuff) Well it seems that in Europe they refer to 'states' as 'counties'. It didnt ask for a state anywhere and I didn't notice that as i ordered. It already shipped to Hopefully i can get it delivered here somehow, i already let DJ know.




I ordered from them too. I had to look twice at the order form and make sure I was reading it correctly. It's so easy to mis-read things these days now that we live in this 'global' society. I'm sure they will get it all straightened out. I haven't received my packages yet but I only ordered them a little over a week ago.

Can't wait to read the novella. A story/series I wrote is being turned into an interactive fiction game so I'm extremely curious to see how closely Rhianna's novella follows the game's [interpretation]. It's a whole new world out there and I'm loving it!!


Faralas



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Lynn] #235684
21/05/04 05:03 PM
21/05/04 05:03 PM
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Morbo Offline

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Quote:

I don't want to play the demon now, but the novella can't be put online as a pdf, it has author copyrights.




Quote:

Duration of copyright
The 1988 Copyright, Designs and Patents Act states the duration of copyright as;
For literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies, or, if the work is of unknown authorship: 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, or if made available to the public in that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available.




So lets say she lives 50 - 60 years + 70 years copyright = 130/140 years till the novella can go online

w00t (it a nice read the novella I read it 3 times )



Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Morbo] #235685
25/05/04 04:07 AM
25/05/04 04:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,016
Melbourne, Australia
HandEFood Offline
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Quote:

*Gets weightless salt barrel out of inventory*



What is with that barrel? Anything useful?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: HandEFood] #235686
25/05/04 05:36 AM
25/05/04 05:36 AM
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Morbo Offline

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something to make gunpowder with at the end of act 1.


Not in the mood for cheese?
That excuse has more holes than a slice this fine Gorgombert!
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Morbo] #235687
25/05/04 07:27 AM
25/05/04 07:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,519
::A dark dungeon::
LUCRETIA Offline
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@ HandEFood

Do you remember a manuscript by Nicodemus called "how to make gunpowder"? Act 1 near Fergus room. One of the ingredients was salt. So perhaps you will need it


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235688
25/05/04 08:18 AM
25/05/04 08:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,141
Belgium
Viper Offline
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just finished the novella yesterday.. LOVELY to read


Viper
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Viper] #235689
25/05/04 12:03 PM
25/05/04 12:03 PM
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Posts: 47
Belgium
Dunkman10 Offline
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Quote:

just finished the novella yesterday.. LOVELY to read



Hey Viper, knowing you're from the Belgian area, where did you got this novella?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Dunkman10] #235690
25/05/04 12:11 PM
25/05/04 12:11 PM
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Winterfox Offline
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Curious. I live in Hong Kong, and the copy I bought has got the novella with it.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Viper] #235691
25/05/04 12:22 PM
25/05/04 12:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 75
London
Leather_Raven Offline
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Thanks very much Viper. I am trying to put something more original into my signature than just 'Rhianna Pratchett' so I hope people like them...I've still got more to sign!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235692
25/05/04 01:08 PM
25/05/04 01:08 PM
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Posts: 2,519
::A dark dungeon::
LUCRETIA Offline
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In Greece the game comes with the novella. It was the most pleasant surprise to find it in. But I think this does not happen in some other countries.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235693
25/05/04 01:23 PM
25/05/04 01:23 PM
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Posts: 1,541
London, England
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Britain has the novella too. I'm about half way through, and I like it a lot so far

It's a very nice bonus, IMO. Adds flavour to the game and is a cool story in its own right


Please click the banner...
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235694
25/05/04 02:50 PM
25/05/04 02:50 PM
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Posts: 6,141
Belgium
Viper Offline
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@Dunkman_10: I won my copy with the Raanaar messaging contest.

@Leather_Raven: I'm sad... sad that you didn't put a message in mine.. nor did Lynn..
the novella still is good though, imho this could become a greater story


Viper
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Viper] #235695
25/05/04 03:17 PM
25/05/04 03:17 PM
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London
Leather_Raven Offline
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They are messages of sorts just not personalised ones

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Viper] #235696
25/05/04 03:40 PM
25/05/04 03:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,396
At the top of the Eiffel Tower
Barta Offline OP
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Quote:

@Leather_Raven: I'm sad... sad that you didn't put a message in mine.. nor did Lynn..



No personnal message from Lynn in the game box but she wrote herself the adress of the package by hand.

I kept the envelop, it's a kind of collector thing

Barta

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235697
26/05/04 01:27 AM
26/05/04 01:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 4,357
malaysia
janggut Offline
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winterfox, maybe yours is a UK edition? or is it a localised version? it'll be a surprise to see a localised version of rhianna's novella; in chinese!



......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235698
27/05/04 11:55 AM
27/05/04 11:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
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Melbourne, Australia
HandEFood Offline
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Quote:

@ HandEFood

Do you remember a manuscript by Nicodemus called "how to make gunpowder"? Act 1 near Fergus room. One of the ingredients was salt. So perhaps you will need it



Crap.

Oh well, next time...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: janggut] #235699
31/05/04 02:36 AM
31/05/04 02:36 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

winterfox, maybe yours is a UK edition? or is it a localised version? it'll be a surprise to see a localised version of rhianna's novella; in chinese!




Probably UK version.

I've just finished reading the novella. I guess I'm the only one who feels that it's... so uninspired and bland. I've never read anything else by Rhianna Pratchett, so it might just be her style, but I get the impression that she didn't put much heart into writing Child of Chaos.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235700
31/05/04 08:57 PM
31/05/04 08:57 PM
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London
Leather_Raven Offline
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er...ouch. Don't quite know what to say to that.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235701
31/05/04 10:25 PM
31/05/04 10:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
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USA
Faralas Offline
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Quote:

I've just finished reading the novella. I guess I'm the only one who feels that it's... so uninspired and bland. I've never read anything else by Rhianna Pratchett, so it might just be her style, but I get the impression that she didn't put much heart into writing Child of Chaos.




Quote:

er...ouch. Don't quite know what to say to that.




No need to say anything, Rhianna. Remember, you're not going to please everyone. And everyone is not cut out to be a good critic.

I haven't received my fan pack yet, but all I can say is if the game's charm reflects only half of the storyline in your novella, it's full of heart [and soul].


Faralas





Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235702
01/06/04 02:50 AM
01/06/04 02:50 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

er...ouch. Don't quite know what to say to that.




I'm sorry; it's nothing personal. It's just that the novella didn't do anything for me, and surely you are no stranger to criticism? I realize that my comment was rather brusque and unhelpful, so I'll give detailed reasons as to why I feel the way I feel. They're probably quite pointless to you, but hey, might as well justify my remarks.

The first is the tone -- I'm unsure as to whether the novella takes itself seriously or sets out to be tongue-in-cheek. Too humourous to be serious, and too serious to be humourous. The commentaries by the gods are... cute, but I feel they detract rather than add. I couldn't take the mortal characters -- Lucian, Damian, Anlokam -- seriously, since all they are doing is being chesspieces in a show to amuse divine beings. It lessens the impact of their emotions, their characters, and their struggles. I couldn't empathize with any of them. Perhaps it's the novella's length and the need to fit the plot in under certain page count limits (not to mention deadlines), but I find the character development rather lacking. When the story can't make me care about the characters, for me, all bets are off.

The prose strikes me as... bland. I'd quote specific bits, but that'd violate the copyrights stated in the inside of the front cover. Suffice to say that the words didn't draw me in, and when I came across cliches, they jumped out at me. The frequent explanations in parentheses likewise grated. This is personal preference, but for me, if something's in brackets (as far as narrative is concerned), it shouldn't be there at all. It reminds me of in-text author's notes so often seen in a beginner's fanfiction. The narrative also frequently goes on a tangent to do what I call "textbook info-dump." (Explanations of how inborn magic works, for instance. It does begin to sound a bit like an expository essay at these points, albeit an informal one.) There are some interesting descriptions here and there (such as the witty jabs at "narrative conventions"), but they don't stand out nearly enough.

It's not bad, IMO, certainly far from the worst things I've read, but it isn't particularly memorable, either. It's just... there. And of course these are all personal opinions, and my views might just be a tad colored by some of the emotionally intense, amazing fanfiction I've been reading recently.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235703
01/06/04 03:14 AM
01/06/04 03:14 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,265
Seattle
LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

@Leather_Raven: I'm sad... sad that you didn't put a message in mine.. nor did Lynn..



No personnal message from Lynn in the game box but she wrote herself the adress of the package by hand.

I kept the envelop, it's a kind of collector thing

Barta




Your so lucky! *pout*


Rhianna , from what I've heard it sounds really good, and I can't WAIT till I get my fan pack (still haven't gotten my email for the personal message from Krill or anything! ) but Winterfox is just a big critic on anything, I'd like to see the product she didn't say was lousy. No offense ment to either, just telling you how she is.



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235704
01/06/04 03:35 AM
01/06/04 03:35 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Rhianna , from what I've heard it sounds really good, and I can't WAIT till I get my fan pack (still haven't gotten my email for the personal message from Krill or anything! ) but Winterfox is just a big critic on anything, I'd like to see the product she didn't say was lousy. No offense ment to either, just telling you how she is.




Oh, please -- I'm saying how I see it, and nothing is perfect. Writing prose is also a field I know something about. You don't see me criticizing, say, music, do you? So sorry for not giving fluffy, glowing adulations that praise everything to the stars. Isn't your memory being a tad selective, anyway? I've gushed enough about various authors (perhaps not frequently on this board -- not many threads discuss fiction) and various games.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235705
01/06/04 03:53 AM
01/06/04 03:53 AM
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Posts: 8,265
Seattle
LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
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Any examples, if I may ask?



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235706
01/06/04 04:11 AM
01/06/04 04:11 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Any examples, if I may ask?




Oh, definitely. I've recommended a number of NWN fan-made modules. I fairly flooded the floor with saliva while gushing about KotOR. I've also recommended various authors and books on other boards; ask me and I'd be ready to give ardent praises for Dune, A Song of Ice and Fire, or The Empire Trilogy, to name but a few. And here I recommended fanfiction, again all but lavishing fangirlish attention on them.

I could go on and on, but I can't be arsed to dig through more archives at the moment. Suffice to say that if I really like the product, I won't hesitate to say positive things about it.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235707
01/06/04 08:03 AM
01/06/04 08:03 AM
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Kejero Offline
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Give her a break! What kind of attitude is that, to demand a resume from someone to justify negative critics Shame on you!
Negative critics can be a good thing, it helps an artist see flaws (s)he didn't see himself/herself.

As for Rhi's novella: haven't read it myself yet, it should be in the mail one of these days. I'm curious


Mr Kej, Second Member of the Guild of Off-Topic Posters *** Visit Aviorn's Inn, my Divine Divinity fansite ***
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235708
01/06/04 09:00 AM
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Quote:

The first is the tone -- I'm unsure as to whether the novella takes itself seriously or sets out to be tongue-in-cheek. The commentaries by the gods are... cute, but I feel they detract rather than add. I couldn't take the mortal characters -- Lucian, Damian, Anlokam -- seriously, since all they are doing is being chesspieces in a show to amuse divine beings. It lessens the impact of their emotions, their characters, and their struggles. I couldn't empathize with any of them. Perhaps it's the novella's length and the need to fit the plot in under certain page count limits (not to mention deadlines), but I find the character development rather lacking. When the story can't make me care about the characters, for me, all bets are off.

The prose strikes me as... bland. I'd quote specific bits, but that'd violate the copyrights stated in the inside of the front cover. Suffice to say that the words didn't draw me in, and when I came across cliches, they jumped out at me. The frequent explanations in parentheses likewise grated. This is personal preference, but for me, if something's in brackets (as far as narrative is concerned), it shouldn't be there at all. It reminds me of in-text author's notes so often seen in a beginner's fanfiction.



I've read the novel and I must say I like it, so I just have to disagree. I know that it seems obvious why someone of Larian Studios should defend the novel but I'll try to leave the official opinion aside and just comment from a point of a fantasy game fan (who also read many fantasy series in the past twenty years) and of course hinting at some background information (there goes the nonofficial thingy again ).

If you have played you might have noticed that Rianna actually imho managed to hit the tone of exxaguerated clichès and our special kind of humor perfectly. The way we wanted it. Thats not such an easy thing to archieve.
After all is it a supporting novel for a game where the characters, the gods and even the rough storyline had to be the way it is written now. It was probably not easy to struggle with the rest of the storyteam to get everything right and smooth. Any fanfic is way more free to write whatever they like as long they stick to some common background so i think its a little bit unfair to compare it. Given the limitations Rhianna had to start with she did a very good job. I really enjoyed reading the novel and -important as well- it fit's very well to .


Wenn sie so überlegen sind, warum sind sie dann so tot?
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Marian] #235709
01/06/04 09:30 AM
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Quote:

I know that it seems obvious why someone of Larian Studios should defend the novel but I'll try to leave the official opinion aside and just comment from a point of a fantasy game fan (who also read many fantasy series in the past twenty years)...




Yes, well, if the developers didn't like the novella, I imagine it wouldn't have been included.

Quote:

If you have played you might have noticed that Rianna actually imho managed to hit the tone of exxaguerated clichès and our special kind of humor perfectly. The way we wanted it. Thats not such an easy thing to archieve.




I won't dispute that it fits. And since it's clearly intended to be that way, I'll say that I've always thought the setting of DD is extremely generic fantasy. Which is all fine and dandy: it was a fun game, and accomplishes precisely what it's supposed to do.

Quote:

After all is it a supporting novel for a game where the characters, the gods and even the rough storyline had to be the way it is written now. It was probably not easy to struggle with the rest of the storyteam to get everything right and smooth. Any fanfic is way more free to write whatever they like as long they stick to some common background so i think its a little bit unfair to compare it.




Not always. Take, for instance, KotOR fanfiction. Good fanficcers not only have to research some Star Wars tidbits; they also have to work with the established characters with distinct personalities. And so on and so forth. (Bad ones will just do whatever the hell they feel like, setting and characterization be damned.) I'll concede that fanfiction writers don't have to follow a plot guideline unless they're retelling something, but then you also have authors working in shared worlds. Forgotten Realms has got, for instance, War of the Spider Queen -- a series where various authors have to work together, using the same cast of characters and following a specific storyline. (And what amount of text on drow and other things they would have to read!) No small task, and IMO, what they've done so far is very, very good.

Of course, I don't know what restrictions exactly Ms. Pratchett (I'd feel rude to call her by her first name) had to work with, so...

You liked the novella; great. I've read a lot of fantasy fiction, too, and haunt various writing communities. I found far too many flaws with the novella to like it, so let's agree to disagree.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235710
01/06/04 11:14 AM
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You are, of course, entitled to your opinion Winterfox. It was my first piece of fiction - I just had the slightly dubious luck of getting it published - so it was never going to please everyone. Not even the best selling novels do that.

You asked about the conditions of writing it…well to start with it was originally going to be 10k in word length and would have started with Damian entering the Academy. Swen, Bron and I decided on a very rough outline of the plot at that point. Basically Damian goes here, sees X, Y and X, does this, this and this. You get the idea. It was then increased to 20k and ended up being about 21.5k. Despite the extra work, I was glad for the extension because it gave me the opportunity to fill in all the backstory for myself and invent my own aspects, such as the origins of riftrunning and the role of the gods.

It was written in quite a short time I’d say about 3, maybe 4, weeks on and off in the end, not ideal, but I ended up doing much more work on the script then was originally expected.

Anyway thanks for your comments.

Rhi


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235711
01/06/04 12:40 PM
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still loving it


Viper
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235712
01/06/04 01:20 PM
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Quote:

Your so lucky! *pout*


Rhianna , from what I've heard it sounds really good, and I can't WAIT till I get my fan pack (still haven't gotten my email for the personal message from Krill or anything! ) but Winterfox is just a big critic on anything, I'd like to see the product she didn't say was lousy. No offense ment to either, just telling you how she is.




Lews, I didn't mean to start a 'prove your point discussion' when I posted my thoughts on Winterfox's quick opinion of the novella and I certainly didn't expect Winterfox to feel obligated to expand that opinion by leaving an indepth critique (which was quite constructive, IMVHO).

I don't read fanfiction and I've never taken on the type of project where I was asked to write a short story (later to be expanded into a novella) using another person's or developer's concept. Therefore, I'm not really qualified to post my opinions on that subject. However, I do appreciate the fact that WF took the time to elaborate on why he/she felt the novella lacked 'heart'. It's apparent WF is familiar with how to give constructive feedback.


Faralas *who hopes this message makes sense. She wrote it without the benefit of having her first cup of coffee*




Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235713
01/06/04 01:43 PM
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Here, my Dear -
Kiya

As to the topic, my own XP/belief as a humble librarian, not worth kissing high literature critic's shoes => a story, a novel - fiction in general - is an invitation from the author to the reader. An invitation to join the world of imagination, and the author functions as a sort of travel guide. As tastes about journeys vary a great deal, so does taste in this case, too.

This is what I tell my members - if they blush and admit, they'd prefer a book, not actually in world literature clouds, quake in their shoes and expect me to wrinkle my nose in disgust. Who am I to tell a member what she/he has to read? Who am I to judge what is good/bad? High/low? Fantasy in general is not considered a very "high" leveled genre in literature circles - so what? If a novel has provided one person with fun - it has served its purpose - and if not? Well, another book might do then.

Don't worry, I'll stop now - this is a very old combat I fight against literature critics and colleagues for many years now.

As to your novel, Rhianna => I liked it. I like every story, where pictures are painted, I even see them and I can delve into this world. I smiled, I giggled at several parts - and I even understood it (English not being my natural language) - you "spoke" my language, thus creating a bond between your words and my imagination - what more can a novel do? Hm?
Kiya

Forgot one thing => I didn't read it as part of BD - I read it as a work of its own.

Last edited by kiya; 01/06/04 01:52 PM.
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235714
01/06/04 02:46 PM
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Here, my Dear -
Kiya






Thanks, Kiya - Just what the doctor ordered. I'm awake!



Faralas


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235715
02/06/04 02:49 AM
02/06/04 02:49 AM
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Rhianna Pratchett/Leather_Raven said:

Quote:

You asked about the conditions of writing it…well to start with it was originally going to be 10k in word length and would have started with Damian entering the Academy. Swen, Bron and I decided on a very rough outline of the plot at that point. Basically Damian goes here, sees X, Y and X, does this, this and this. You get the idea. It was then increased to 20k and ended up being about 21.5k. Despite the extra work, I was glad for the extension because it gave me the opportunity to fill in all the backstory for myself and invent my own aspects, such as the origins of riftrunning and the role of the gods.





Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Kiya said:

Quote:

This is what I tell my members - if they blush and admit, they'd prefer a book, not actually in world literature clouds, quake in their shoes and expect me to wrinkle my nose in disgust. Who am I to tell a member what she/he has to read? Who am I to judge what is good/bad? High/low? Fantasy in general is not considered a very "high" leveled genre in literature circles - so what? If a novel has provided one person with fun - it has served its purpose - and if not? Well, another book might do then.




I'm sure you don't mean to say that no one should express negative opinions of any given book, though.

Quote:

As to your novel, Rhianna => I liked it. I like every story, where pictures are painted, I even see them and I can delve into this world. I smiled, I giggled at several parts - and I even understood it (English not being my natural language) - you "spoke" my language, thus creating a bond between your words and my imagination - what more can a novel do? Hm?




Here's how I view things when I write. If I have evoked in my readers the emotions my story is intended to evoke, I count the mission a success (though by no means perfect); characters are paramount, because if the reader doesn't care about them, then the reader is unlikely to give a fig about their tales. Nothing makes me happier than knowing that my reader feels my character's pain, sorrow, and joy. A reviewer of mine has put it this way, and I agree with her:

Quote:

The mark of an accomplished writer isn't the plots they weave, the characters they mold, or even the fluidity of their words. While all of these are important, the single most critical aspect of a writer is their ability to draw a reader into their worlds.




Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235716
02/06/04 07:37 AM
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Quote:

Winterfox:
I'm sure you don't mean to say that no one should express negative opinions of any given book, though



Correct - free opinion is very important. If taken and meant as singular and subjective. What I dislike about literature critics is, if they turn into popes and call out a dogma. We've got 2 main "popes" in Germany - and I've seen them rip books apart in a terrible scavenging way - was not about the plot or even the author, it was to tickle their ego, feel and express power.
I agree with the reviewer you quoted - and I think "being drawn into a world" is similar to the journey I explained - an intimate matter between author and reader => it succeeds in some cases and doesn't in others. I was drawn into the novella - you weren't => singular, subjective, c'est tout in both cases.
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235717
02/06/04 12:01 PM
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I've read many critically acclaimed books that where less well written as the novella.

Brian Lumly's Necroscope series being one set of books. Which I thoroughly enjoyed despite that his writing of character dialogues is an inconsistent shambles in many places to how real people should or would converse with one another.

Nor did I ever feel for any of the main characters, it was simply the story that drove me on. I'd rather feel for characters and have a story to drive me on but with all the books in the world I wonder how many would live up to each of our own individual concepts of what a book should do, convey, or make us feel. Not very many, if even any at all. No matter how much I like something, there's always something I'd change.

The short novella with its generic fantasy setting and computer game characters does exactly what it set out to do...introduce the story and world of the game. I wouldn't expect it to stand on its own merits if the game never existed, and nor do I think it is meant to.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235718
02/06/04 12:25 PM
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I've read many critically acclaimed books that where less well written as the novella.




I've read fanfiction that I enjoy more than a great number of "critically acclaimed books." I detest many, many classics, and I loathed a novel I read recently -- a Booker Prize winner, y'know -- with an unholy passion.

Quote:

Nor did I ever feel for any of the main characters, it was simply the story that drove me on. I'd rather feel for characters and have a story to drive me on but with all the books in the world I wonder how many would live up to each of our own individual concepts of what a book should do, convey, or make us feel. Not very many, if even any at all. No matter how much I like something, there's always something I'd change.




Yes, that's very lovely and very wonderful. Didn't I keep typing "for me", "this is my personal opinion", ad infinitum? There is a reason I sprinkled my critiques with those, y'know.

Quote:

The short novella with its generic fantasy setting and computer game characters does exactly what it set out to do...introduce the story and world of the game. I wouldn't expect it to stand on its own merits if the game never existed, and nor do I think it is meant to.




I tried to look at the novella both as a standalone piece, and as a piece that complements the game. Neither attempt improved my opinions of it overmuch. Then again, my opinions of BD itself aren't very high at the moment.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235719
02/06/04 01:03 PM
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Quote:



Yes, that's very lovely and very wonderful. Didn't I keep typing "for me", "this is my personal opinion", ad infinitum? There is a reason I sprinkled my critiques with those, y'know.







I wasn't referring nor did I accidently, to any of your comments or opinions. I was expressing my own.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235720
02/06/04 02:00 PM
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Quote:

Winterfox:
I tried to look at the novella both as a standalone piece, and as a piece that complements the game. Neither attempt improved my opinions of it overmuch. Then again, my opinions of BD itself aren't very high at the moment.




True, you "hinted" this several times - so it's d'accord, right? (Novella+BD) - I'm looking forward to reading your result, in your personal/subjective point of view
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235721
03/06/04 12:20 PM
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Well reading all this, I felt very attracted to express what I feel not only for the novella but for books generaly. INMHO books are magic things. You buy them, you start to read them and then all of the sudden you leave this world and get transferred to an other world. A world that it is created by an other person who is totaly unknown to you and yet that person manages to travell you, make you cry or laugh, get angry or sad. So I am totally oposite to the book critics. Because reading a book is something very personal. And like a book or not depends on many things. The emotional status the reader is in the period he is reading the book, the place and the situations he is reading it, the cause he is reading the book (educational or just for fun) and many many other. So I may read a book being in a certain condition at that time and simply love it or hate it. And that is something no critic can tell me about. Only myself. Because there are stories in this world made by people who perhaps have gone through the same things I did. And this is something only me and the author will know about it. And personally hate the critics who write in magazines or the previews/reviews writen on the net about books. Books = a relation ship. A short one. With the characters in the book and the author himself.
So in the case of the novella, I loved it. Why? Because I work too many hours and I have all these phone calls and people all around me the most of the day. And when I get home I need to have some quiet time. And the novella travelled me from my sofa to a nice quiet place. Simple as that. Personally I wouldn´t care if it did/did not fit with
. It was a story that made me see green forests and small cabins in the woods and horses etc. instead of the oposite block of flats in my apartment. And that was enough for me. And for this I thank the author.

I am sorry I am expressing things in short of simple way but you are all aware about my English.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235722
03/06/04 12:40 PM
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Quote:

I am sorry I am expressing things in short of simple way but you are all aware about my English.




You expressed it all brilliantly Lucretia, and I don't think anyone could have done so better.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235723
03/06/04 01:07 PM
03/06/04 01:07 PM
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I usually write ... I want to tell a story, an interesting one,if possible.

Yes, it's kind of an invitation : Take part in my world, in the world I created, if you feel attracted by it, good, but I generally don't bother much about it if not.

Usually, I write for myself, therefore I don't care much about what people think. Putting my stories online (like the Adorant) is kind of a free service : You can read it if you wish to do so, but initially it's written only for myself, so I don't care much about critics.

However, I have an open ear if someone explains to me (mostly with examples) how to write better.

I generally don't like "high literature", because I often have the feeling as if these people (writers) feel superior to others - which may be fuelled by their critics. No-one builds a museum for unknown artists, but only for "arrived artists", so to say.

Additionally I don't want my own writing-style top be spoiled by the style of others, partly because people often say that "high literature" is so superior to everything else that writers should adopt that. Goethe is like a big, massive tree; but alas young plants cannot grow under the shadow of big, massive trees. I'm more for diversity.

I want to have fun with writing, that's why I write mostly, and I want to tell a story - for those who want to listen (who lend me their ear ) . I want to enhance people's lives by showing them things they wouldn't know if I wasn't there, because of the unique style I write in - which is true for every writer : Any writer develops his or her unique style of writing - and that makes Art.

I think that's my point so far.

Alrik.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235724
03/06/04 01:14 PM
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You're very welcome Lucretia, thank you for your kind words.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235725
03/06/04 01:18 PM
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@ Plowking I thank you so much

@ Al this is so nice. An author should write for him/herself first. And FROM her/himself. Because most of the times what we write is what we are. And what we are is what we write. Everytime I see something writen even it is the smallest thing I can not stop thinking that this is a little piece of the heart of the author. And btw I enjoyed Adorant very much.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235726
03/06/04 01:24 PM
03/06/04 01:24 PM
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That reminds me of my last story (Star Wars Fan Fiction) which turned (during writing) into a huge experiment. Therefore, I suspect that critics may find *many* flaws in it !



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235727
03/06/04 02:01 PM
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@ Rhianna thank you for the reply. And thank you for once more for your gift. Because every book is a gift.

@ Al I would really like to see that

Edit : Forgot Plowking = I loved Necroscope series too. But you know me. Vampires... my all time fav.


Last edited by LUCRETIA; 03/06/04 02:04 PM.

You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235728
03/06/04 02:15 PM
03/06/04 02:15 PM
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Quote:



Edit : Forgot Plowking = I loved Necroscope series too. But you know me. Vampires... my all time fav.





Aye it's a great series overall. There are a lot of great ideas in them and I particually enjoy the vampires as they aren't run of mill hollywood vampires in any way. I loved the ending of it all too...had a nice air of H.P. Lovecraft about it. Lumley is a big fan of Lovecrafts by the way and wrote a few books and short stories based on Lovecrafts writings. So that'd be his inspiration for a lot of that.

Reading Wheel of Time series at the moment. Just finishing book 2...

Who's read them? Lews of course...and a few others I'm sure...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235729
03/06/04 03:47 PM
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Quote:

Reading Wheel of Time series at the moment. Just finishing book 2...

Who's read them? Lews of course...and a few others I'm sure...



I did read book 1 and 2. Not my cup o' tea, I'd rather read George Martin.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235730
03/06/04 04:05 PM
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Quote:

I'd rather read George Martin.




The Beatles producer??

Or is it another George Martin...

A song of ice and fire...heard them mentioned a few times on the forum. I'll check them out!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235731
03/06/04 04:13 PM
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Belgium,Zoersel
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Anyone read the Sword of truth series here? (called Zwaard der waarheid / Wet van de magie #x in Belgium)

I read like seven books of them and I absolutely love 'em .

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Yannos] #235732
03/06/04 04:26 PM
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Canada
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Quote:

Anyone read the Sword of truth series here? (called Zwaard der waarheid / Wet van de magie #x in Belgium)

I read like seven books of them and I absolutely love 'em .



By Terry Goodkind?
Aka Wizard's First Rule books?
If yes, then the answer is positive.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235733
03/06/04 04:47 PM
03/06/04 04:47 PM
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Faralas Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Anyone read the Sword of truth series here? (called Zwaard der waarheid / Wet van de magie #x in Belgium)

I read like seven books of them and I absolutely love 'em .



By Terry Goodkind?
Aka Wizard's First Rule books?
If yes, then the answer is positive.




I haven't read Sword of Truth series yet, but I just bought Wizard's First Rule. The salesperson at the bookstore highly recommended it. Haven't had time to read any of it yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Btw, here's the publisher's website if anyone's interested.





Faralas


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235734
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plow, DATD is correct about martin's books.
the series starts with 'a game of thrones'. i'm a very harsh critic when it comes to the fantasy genre (i think jordan is okay, eddings worse and brooks just plain sucks), few succeed in my opinion, but martin is one that does. excellent work.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: lego] #235735
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Quote:

plow, DATD is correct about martin's books.
the series starts with 'a game of thrones'. i'm a very harsh critic when it comes to the fantasy genre (i think jordan is okay, eddings worse and brooks just plain sucks), few succeed in my opinion, but martin is one that does. excellent work.




One of the few books where you have no idea what might happen next or how it may end, without the mumbling of Robert Jordan (no offence, Jordan fans), the flat characters of Tolkien (no offence, Tolkien fans) and the strange cliches/rip off of Goodkind (no offence, Goodkind fans).

About Goodkind: I sometimes argue with my father about those books. I say the story is full of cliches. He replies that the story's not important unlike the quotes, specific paragraphs and backgrounds. He did like George Martin and agreed that both the plot and the character developement was remarquable. He even was surprised a couple of times, which happens once in a lifetime.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235736
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Diabolic question => doesn't a rather conventional, patriarchic, conservative genre as heroic fantasy LIVE from cliches?
Kiya <thinking about a lot of heated discussions with colleagues>

I know a few authors making fun of this genre, specially in the feministic fantasy sector - but only one non-German one. Nope, Terry Pratchett doesn't count - he's not considered as "heroic" fantasy, I'm talking about all those typical hack&slash ones.

This is exactly my reason, why I prefer youth fantasy books - they don't hold such a lot of cliches.

Last edited by kiya; 03/06/04 08:11 PM.
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235737
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@ Plowking Yeap. One of the special things in Necroscope Series was that the vampires had nothing to do with the sterotyped Hollywood thing.
I am reading "The Innkeeper's Song" by Peter S. Beagle at the moment. Translated in Greek of course.

Edit : And the main chars are women.

Last edited by LUCRETIA; 03/06/04 08:26 PM.

You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235738
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Quote:

Diabolic question => doesn't a rather conventional, patriarchic, conservative genre as heroic fantasy LIVE from cliches?
Kiya <thinking about a lot of heated discussions with colleagues>



Yes, you have a point there. That's the reason I never read Connan, although I know it's the original Heroic fantasy.




Quote:

This is exactly my reason, why I prefer youth fantasy books - they don't hold such a lot of cliches.



I don't know: Harry Potter might be considered a youth heroic fantasy?

Yes, Pratchett is more "unheroic" fantasy . That's one of the many reasons I love Terry Pratchett so much. *TP fanboy*

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235739
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Except Harry Potter, of course - I'm sick and tired of this series. No, Mahy, the Tillerman series (forgot author's name) and there are more, have to look them up, as I work in the adult part and my youth colleague supports me with my "drug".
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235740
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Quote:

Except Harry Potter, of course - I'm sick and tired of this series.




Glad to see I am not the only one. After some time, I realise what was my problem with Harry Potter: he is nobody.
No extraordinary mental capacities, no exquisite logical quickthinking, no great wisdom... nothing. A simple flat character with a somewhat important background.
The book's clearly overrated.
Hell, show a random book on TV by some unknown author: the sales would triple in 2 days.
For youth fantasy, Moomini trolls are still the best. Even if it's a kid's book.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235741
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Mumin? By Tove Jansson? DEATH, a biiiiiiiiig hug, I didn't know anyone would know it. (Snork, Mumin, Troll, Mora etc?)
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235742
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Oh is it called The Wizard's First rule in America? I always thought it was called "Sword of Truth". And yeah, sometimes it might be cliched but I like the roughness of the story, meaning all the stuff you wouldn't see in most fantasy books like the killing, language and a lot sexual content. Just made it look more medieval and gritty to me.

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I'm a huge fan of the Moomins I have all the books. I'd say they are quite dark as children's books go. When I was a kid, dad build me a large Moomin valley out of wood and papier-mâché, about 3 foot long. He also made me a Moomin house and made all the Moomins out of clay and painted them Tove has also written books for adults as well. I particularly like Summer Story, you can see where she got a lot of ideas for the Moomins from when you read that.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235744
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So, they're called Moomins in English? I read them in German. Oh, Leather_Raven, you like them too? I'm really delighted. This was the very last forum, where I had expected Jansson fans (My was my favourite, she was so cheeky)
Kiya

Last edited by kiya; 03/06/04 09:39 PM.
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Yannos] #235745
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Quote:

Oh is it called The Wizard's First rule in America? I always thought it was called "Sword of Truth". And yeah, sometimes it might be cliched but I like the roughness of the story, meaning all the stuff you wouldn't see in most fantasy books like the killing, language and a lot sexual content. Just made it look more medieval and gritty to me.



I cannot disagree except that in the middle ages, everyone were stupid (no education except for the nobles), ugly (bad health conditions and no medicine) and the lifespan was maximum 40 years. Speaking of rough, try George R. R. Martin.

Kiya: I grew up on those books. In addition, as you noted, I am a bit of troll myself .

I always pitied Mora



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235746
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Can anyone please explain what they are ? A link ?

I remember creatures with that name from TV when I was a young boy ... I don't know whether it's the same ...


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235747
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There were japanese cartoons made under the supervision of Jansson.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235748
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Same here, Death - I felt very sorry for Mora. I recall I cried as a child, because she would never have friends - as everything started to freeze in her presence. And the gem... was just a very poor token to comfort her in her loneliness.

Alrik, yes, there was a TV series - but not as good as the original books with their drawings.

Tove Jansson: Die Mumins - they were trolls (or I think they can be called trolls).

further German titles, just a few of them:
Mumins wundersame Inselabenteuer
Herbst im Mumintal
Sturm im Mumintal

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235749
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Ah ! I remember them ! And there was / is really a series of books about them ? I never knew that ...

EDIT : I'm just using Google about the Moomins ... and I see that there is already a Petition on bringing them on DVD !
http://www.petitiononline.com/moomins/petition.html


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 03/06/04 10:06 PM.

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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235750
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Harry Potter
------

Oh my gosh!!! The first time I read those books I liked them so much!
OH MY GOSH! The secound time I read th ose books I wannted to kill myself!!!




TP!!!!

Thanks to the forum for telling me of him *drools* .

Robert Jordan is good, but I will never get finished.
I want to reasd Mr. Martin's work. and DUNE.

E. Nesbit anybody?



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235751
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There was also another version of the Moomins screened in the UK that looked like it was made using animated fuzzy felts, if anyone remembers those!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235752
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I have several E Nesbit books and have read them all, but then I've read about 10k books at least. I have over 3k in my house.


If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
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I grew up on Roald Dahl's non-kiddie stuff (the horror stories, the... less than fluffy things), and first read Terry Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters at the age of eleven or so. Might explain a few things.

At the moment, I like popular fantasy fiction less and less -- Sword of Truth is going down the drain with repetitive plots and thinly veiled political preaching (on top of preaching about everything else). Harry Potter is a fun, light read, but hardly the masterpiece the hype makes it out to be; the latest volume, I think, also leaves something to be desired. A Song of Ice and Fire, though, is easily one of my favourites. I'll also soon be re-reading Dune (yay political intrigue -- "a plot within a plot within a plot"), which my beta-reader fairly worships. I'm slowly edging toward science fiction.

On other things: the "I write for myself" thing has always puzzled me. IMO, if you put up your work for public consumption, it is implicit that you want feedback. If you wrote for yourself, you'd have kept your writing to yourself. This is especially true for professionally published writing: to put it bluntly and harshly, you're writing something to sell. And you don't get to choose your audience; anything in public view is fair game and subject to all type of criticism. The public is about as loving and caring as a rusty iron maiden, and editors are not obliged to be humane or even remotely nice. (I've read someone else's rejection slip that doesn't say much aside from -- paraphrased -- "your writing is frankly infantile." You think I'm harsh? Meet disgruntled editors who have to read hundreds of submitted manuscripts from hopeful aspiring writers.)

I'm also -- no offense -- leery around anyone who claims that his/her writing is "art" and is therefore, somehow, not subject to criticism. Common excuses include, "But you can't possibly understand what I'm trying to convey!" or "But this is my style -- if I listen to your critiques, I'd become a mindless conformist drone!" Nope. E.E. Cummings you are not; win a Pulitzer Prize or something first and maybe your argument will have merits. If your writing is unclear, or makes me want to fall asleep, or simply awfully written, it doesn't matter if you think it's art or some sacred magnum opus. Doesn't matter if you think you're sending out some profound message. You're just being pretentious. It's also a little naive to think that every writer writes for the pleasure or love of the craft; many fanpoodles want attention and ego-stroking. At the first sign of negative criticism, they'll scream "You are so MEAN!" or "You have no life!" Don't believe me? Pay FF.net a visit.

A recent author temper tantrum on a community I frequent reminds me of something. The author was screaming that she had a dislocated hip when she wrote her story -- which was being torn apart -- and that she has a "ruined" physical condition, as well as the fact that she had put so much heart into writing the thing in question. Fun was had by all, because nobody gives a fig. The majority of readers won't care if you poured your soul into writing something, or your puppy died, or your relative committed suicide (cry me a river, and drown in it, please) -- what they will judge is what you have written and put up for their view. The conditions under which you worked don't matter. Only the end product does. No more, no less.

(Note: I'm not addressing anyone in particular; this is just a rant directed at the people who have behaved as indicated in my post, ala the whining fanbrats on FF.net, the self-righteous "artists" I've often run into, et all.)

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235754
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by ff.net you probably mean fanfiction.net, no?

Everything you just said, Winterfox, applies to art in general: all mediums, especially imagery.
For someone, a crude line and three dots on a blue background is art. To me, it's just some guy who made a picture in 5 minutes and spend the rest of the day convincing everyone arround him that it's a 'chez d'oeuvre'.
Like this joke I remember for 4 years already:
Quote:

"A rich man goes see a popular modern painter. He enters the room and sees the painter working on his arts. "Why," asks the man, "are all your paintings looking so weird?". - "Because that's how I see," answered the egoisting artist.
- "Then why don't you wear glasses?"



Writing in general is an art, but 4/5 of every specific piece of text isn't. Even if it is, it doesn't mean that Art isn't to be subjected to comments.
Of course, many (if not most) artists want praise, otherwise they wouldn't display anything. Many of them think their work is perfect. In their eyes, it is, at least for the first moment. I'll admit thay myself, I become discouraged when I get too much negative comments but I know that if such is the case, my drawing must REALLY suck. Also, critic is the only possible way to improuvement. I always ask for honest opinion yet often I do not get one.
The people you described are your typical sad wannabees. I believe that you have read quite curious little stories on that site, such as eye-watering [pseudp]romantic stories or some epic nonsence...
One thing I don't understand.
If your text/picture/song is simply godawful, there'll be at LEAST one good comment about it. The question is: is this comment from someone who trully likes it or he is just being mercyful?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235755
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Of course, many (if not most) artists want praise, otherwise they wouldn't display anything.




Yes. Heck, I appreciate positive comments; I've been getting many for my latest fanfic, and I'm not going to scorn them and say "Mindless praise! Shut up!" to my reviewers. The thing is, while they give me the warm fuzzies, I don't let them get to my head. Some readers' responses do tell me that I've succeeded in certain areas (evoking sympathy for Darth Malak, for example), but I'm not going to strut around and preen. I've got an honest beta-reader; my paper bleeds red ink when I print my stories out for self-editing. Combined, those are ample reminders for me that I'm no literary genius. (I do admit, though, to taking pride in the fact that most of my reviews are correctly punctuated, spelled, and indicate intelligence. *grins* Ahem, a moment of conceit here.)

Quote:

In their eyes, it is, at least for the first moment. I'll admit thay myself, I become discouraged when I get too much negative comments but I know that if such is the case, my drawing must REALLY suck.




Someone told me that, if one person remarks that it is bad, your work might simply not please everyone. If several people start giving the same criticism, on the other hand...

Quote:

If your text/picture/song is simply godawful, there'll be at LEAST one good comment about it. The question is: is this comment from someone who trully likes it or he is just being mercyful?




There's an audience for everything; the hundreds of glowing reviews the fanbrats on FF.net get are proof of that. However, I do notice that a lot people try to be nice and adhere to the school of thought: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." (Which would, y'know, result in stagnation.)

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235756
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[quoteI do admit, though, to taking pride in the fact that most of my reviews are correctly punctuated, spelled, and indicate intelligence. *grins* Ahem, a moment of conceit here.
Quote:



i have to write this one down! maybe i'll make a fanfic out of your 'character'.



......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235757
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Wilhelm Bush once said ==> Those who can't write, write critics

Winterfox, I view this "vanity fair" in art (exhibitions) and writer circles day by day at my library (on both sides, creator and critic). That's why my boss has to drag me screaming, writhing and cussing to these "pleasures". In fact, he has nearly given up, because his "enfant terrible" has embarrassed him too often (I just can't resist pricking overblown egos and watch them fizzing around like a defect air balloon )

I need reviews to decide if I buy certain media or not - Thank God, librarians doing this job for other libraries and helping us in this way, are a bit more down-to-earth. Still, I need to read between the lines, instead of just following a recommendation. If I would blindly, we'd have nearly NO fantasy fiction at all, specially not the heroic epic one. I buy what my members want to read => and if they want Nora Roberts or Kathleen Woodiwiss, Rebecca Gable, Gabaldon, Star Wars Jedi quest series, Stephen King => so be it. And if books having won countless prizes dust in the shelf, I chuck it out after a few years or put it into our magazines, in case pupils need it for school lecture. Why? Because I buy with tax money and want to reach as many people as possible. It's not my job to educate and teach people what "good" literature is, I leave this up to intellectual critics - and amuse myself. Readers have their own rules, dislikes and preferences - as I have - and I prefer a self-confident reader making her/his own choice much more than those following recommendations.

Kiya

Last edited by kiya; 04/06/04 07:25 AM.
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Quote:

Wilhelm Bush once said ==> Those who can't write, write critics




I write. I consider myself an average writer with occasional above-average flashes, but there you go.

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so you can play the vanity fair from both sides
Kiya

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so you can play the vanity fair from both sides
Kiya




Oh, yes. A lot of people whose writing I've criticized respond with "Can you do better? Huh, huh?" I smile and link them to my FF.net profile. I have yet to get any solid critiques from these slighted poor itty-bitty souls. ("You have no life" and "you're a heartless female dog" don't count, since they pertain not at all to my writing abilities.)

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235761
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I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others. The fact that in the end the readers are the ones who make the choice is very pleasant. Thank Gods there are bookstores in which you can stay in for hours and see the books, read the back cover, see the front cover, smell it, drink a coffee and then decide where to spend your money.
(I am not talking about libraries cause I never go there. Not because I do not like them but because I want every book I read to stay in my library, I so I buy them all).

Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235762
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Quote:

I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others.




Snarky bit: you mean, writers can't read? Damn, that must be tough for 'em. Can't self-edit and do drafts and all that. Heck, if they can't read, how do they write at all? {/snark}

Uhm, I'm sorry, but are you including every single author into this blanket statement? Because you know, most writers start off reading, and reading a lot. Some of the professional authors I've met on the 'Net are avid readers; this I know for a fact. Unpublished authors? Dur; the first advice you're given is to read, read, and read some more.

Also, many, many writers are their own worst critics: they'll nitpick their own work to death, and see flaws no one else can quite see, not to mention have occasional attacks of insecurity. Unless you're Anne Rice, who regards her work as too good to have drafts and go through editors.

Blanket, unresearched/uninformed statements -> bad, mmmkay.

Quote:

Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.




What...?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235763
04/06/04 09:57 AM
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oi, winterfox, u have to excuse her as her command of english isn't as legendary as yours. hence the prose not as pink as yours either.




......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235764
04/06/04 10:17 AM
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In Antwort auf:

Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.




I'm actually kind of embarassed to find this here.

Recommendations and crtic for readers is a difficult sword, because of the individual taste.

One person can be say "this is the best I've ever read !", while the next one is simply bored by the same text. That's difficult.

And yes, a huge part of writing is simply crafting, nothing to do with talent. But talent, skill can enhance things very much.

I write for my self ; and when I put it online, yes, I'd like to have feedback, but not necessarily. Why should I ?
I usually prefer a kind of "hit & run"-technique : Put it online and disappear again, so that I leave the people with my text alone. And then I need not worry about bad critics as well.

If I write for my self, I'm not dependent on what people say; my ego is then rather independent from the critics. I think this is a plus.

What feedback I can always use is how to enhance my writing to make better texts.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235765
04/06/04 10:39 AM
04/06/04 10:39 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:


I usually prefer a kind of "hit & run"-technique : Put it online and disappear again, so that I leave the people with my text alone. And then I need not worry about bad critics as well.

If I write for my self, I'm not dependent on what people say; my ego is then rather independent from the critics. I think this is a plus.




What? Isn't that contradictory? If you have to "worry about bad critics" and use "hit-and-run tactic", then evidently you are -- or your ego is -- affected in some manner.

Me, as I said, you don't get to choose your audience. Found critics you don't like? Too bad. Deal with it. Grow skin.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235766
04/06/04 10:53 AM
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Plowking Offline
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As interesting as this topic is, you could type about it until your fingers turn blue (equivalent of talking to blue in the face I suppose ) and still be going in circles.

But everyone's different and has their own opinions, likes and dislikes. We could even all like the one thing (book for example) and even then like it but not for the same reasons as each other.

Sometimes the more forcefully an opinion is stated by a person, the more forceful the reply...or even in a lot of cases the originator of the first opinion sees other peoples replies as being an attack (even slightly) or their own opinion even when it wasn't intended as such...and things will start spiraling from then on until someone loses the plot.

Some good opinions (all valid of course...especially in that we are all different individuals) but stating them once should be enough. Unless I'm openly rude to someone (which I'll attempt never to be) I don't want to see or read someone else's disgruntled response to any opinions.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235767
04/06/04 01:58 PM
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This whole post reminds me of a very funny quote I have to thank Faile for:

"Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded!"

Like Winterfox says. Grow a skin. Critique is something you get for anything you write. Learn to deal or you'll end up very angry at someone you don't even know. Which is pointless. Something I have learned since I started forum browsing.

And yes, I've made angry posts in the past myself. I'll try to live by my own words more in the future....


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Yannos] #235768
04/06/04 02:21 PM
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Faralas Offline
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Quote:

Oh is it called The Wizard's First rule in America? I always thought it was called "Sword of Truth". And yeah, sometimes it might be cliched but I like the roughness of the story, meaning all the stuff you wouldn't see in most fantasy books like the killing, language and a lot sexual content. Just made it look more medieval and gritty to me.




The first book is titled "Wizard's First Rule". The whole series is called "Sword of Truth" - so you were correct!


Faralas


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Womble] #235769
04/06/04 02:24 PM
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Plowking Offline
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It's true that it's hard not to react in anger sometimes when you 'feel' attacked by a post or comment.

I've done it too, but really try to hold back these days. As you say womble it is pointless.

I understand the comment grow a skin...but that's a difficult thing to do sometimes...just because someone has a thick skin towards things doesn't mean all should or will have one. Like saying to a shy person 'its easy just go and talk to them'. But it's not easy...but yes do grow a skin, or better way to say it, be more mindful or the reasons for the criticism and don't attack back.

It's a public forum and all should be more respectful towards the other people, thick or thin skinned, good or indifferent English...it doesn't matter.

If I'm flamed for a post I accept it IF in my post I directly stepped with intention on the toes of the person responding. If it's an unjustified flame the 'growing a skin' is not attacking back...it's either saying nothing and never worrying about it or just explaining simply how you didn't mean it in that context...or whatever!

Sorry for the long wind...I've just seen to many threads closed on forums because someone loses the plot!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235770
04/06/04 02:33 PM
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Plowking Offline
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Those George Martin books sound great from the comments here...I'll be checking them out for sure.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235771
04/06/04 02:50 PM
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Faralas Offline
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Quote:

On other things: the "I write for myself" thing has always puzzled me. IMO, if you put up your work for public consumption, it is implicit that you want feedback. If you wrote for yourself, you'd have kept your writing to yourself. This is especially true for professionally published writing: to put it bluntly and harshly, you're writing something to sell. And you don't get to choose your audience; anything in public view is fair game and subject to all type of criticism. The public is about as loving and caring as a rusty iron maiden, and editors are not obliged to be humane or even remotely nice. (I've read someone else's rejection slip that doesn't say much aside from -- paraphrased -- "your writing is frankly infantile." You think I'm harsh? Meet disgruntled editors who have to read hundreds of submitted manuscripts from hopeful aspiring writers.)




I write for a living and yes, you do choose your audience. Maybe not personally or individual by individual but you have to have a target audience in mind not only when you go to publish, but when you're writing it. If you don't, your chances of ever getting published are close to zero. Publishing houses publish material related to their specific genre. Most small to mid size publishing houses are genre specific because print publication is extremely expensive. And one subject is easier to and less costly to manage than 2 or 3. Electronic publication is broken down differently in terms of cost.

Some of the editors I have dealt with have the personality of a piece of chalk. Others are more receptive and willing to work with an author. It depends on the editor, the market and sometimes the genre. And some of the stuff they get thrown over their transom is swill. Some writers don't take the time to read the publisher's guidelines (an absolute must if you're to be taken seriously). Some don't even take the time to run their work through a spell checker. And more often than not, a lot of writers have never read a book on grammar. So, sometimes I can empathize with editors and why they get snarky.

IMO, 'writing for myself' can be interepreted several different ways. When I hear someone say "I write for myself," I think they mean they write things that they like to read. Not for self-aggrandizement or to stroke an overblown ego.

Quote:

I'm also -- no offense -- leery around anyone who claims that his/her writing is "art" and is therefore, somehow, not subject to criticism. Common excuses include, "But you can't possibly understand what I'm trying to convey!" or "But this is my style -- if I listen to your critiques, I'd become a mindless conformist drone!" Nope. E.E. Cummings you are not; win a Pulitzer Prize or something first and maybe your argument will have merits. ...




Authors have to develop a thick skin if they want to be successful in the publishing industry. Everyone is going to criticize your work whether you want it or not. But I think there is an art to the craft of writing and weaving a storyline. However, that art can be appreciated for what it is, go unnoticed by the reader or picked apart by people who enjoy doing so. Writing for a living is not an easy job. It takes self-motivation, discipline and learning the marketing side of writing. That's the part most 'writers' forget when they sit down to write their first article, short story or novel. The work doesn't automatically grow legs, walk out the door and sell itself. (Although some people think their work is so great, it could). No. To be a successful writer who wants to make money, you need to study marketing trends, target your audience, read similar authors' work and frankly, learn that genre inside and out. And if you're involved in a niche market (like I am), you have to get involved even deeper because the market is that much more defined.

Anyway, I didn't mean to blather on. But that seems to be what I do best.



Faralas



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235772
04/06/04 03:23 PM
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I'bve had one very strange incident which I still cannot understand.

It was during my training and we (or class) had to prepare and perform a presentation.

I did mine, and received critics.

However, what I still don't understand - and tht has nothing to do with "skin" or not - was my reaction towards that. I feeled that I had failed.

The only expression I've comme across in the internet to describe what I did is "to freak out". I still don't understand why I had the feeling as if this critic was hitting me to the core , and yes : I definitively mean core. I still don't understand why I reacted so intensively towards relatively rational, unemotional and understandable critics.

I still don't understand or know why I felt this way - being hit so deep - and reconstructing the thing in order to find a clue proved more or less pointless.

The only possible clue I have is that there was no positive criticism (right spelled ?) , but I still don't know.

My feeling was not only that I had failed, by that my work, and everything, including my life, was totally pointless. Being already "hardened" at that point, I could overcome it during several days, otherwise I just would've jumped off the next bridge.

This is no joke ! I *really* felt that at this point !

I still fear that I might have the same strange thing happening to me. And remembering the intense hurting I wouldn't be able to say whether I would really jump off the next bridge or not.

I still don't know what had hurt me so intensively deep; but I fear to re-life this feeling again.

I can deal with critics, okay, but I still cannot say what might be triggered within me when I read them.

That's my story.

Alrik.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235773
04/06/04 03:39 PM
04/06/04 03:39 PM
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Quote:

I'bve had one very strange incident which I still cannot understand.

It was during my training and we (or class) had to prepare and perform a presentation.

I did mine, and received critics.

However, what I still don't understand - and tht has nothing to do with "skin" or not - was my reaction towards that. I feeled that I had failed.




Was that a marked presentation? If I do a marked presentation, I always do it for the teacher and don't give a dog biscuit about the rest. I get a good mark? Good! I get a bad one? I don't care, I did my best.
If it's not marked, I care even less: I won't get a bad mark so why to break if someone doesn't like your work?

I realise you must've put a lot of work in your presentation if the critics left you devastated but you must get used to that. The public in general is stupid. It's obvious, logical and sooner or later you'll understand it.
They brag for innovation but when the innovation comes, they run in fear.
Example: Giordano Bruno, Richard Wagner, H.P. Lovecraft, Mozart, Chuck Berry... I can site on and on but you get the point. I cannot see your presentation, maybe it's not good. Maybe it is good, but nevertheless: remember the Wizard's First Rule®: People are stupid.



And winterfox: I agree with Lucretia: many "writers" can't read. I don't mean they have insufficient knowledge of the alphabet, but I mean they are unable to read; after they wrote, they simply cannot read what they wrote and see what's wrong.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235774
04/06/04 03:42 PM
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It was the last test for the presentation we all should perform as part of the final testing of our training.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235775
04/06/04 03:53 PM
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Plowking Offline
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But who defines what's good writing or not? Is it the reader or some English college professer?

I consider myself reasonably intelligent but when a pretentious writer butchers each of their sentences with a thesaurus it can become unreadable, even if you know what the words mean the flow can be lost because it reads like a dictionary instead.

Yes I agree too that some readers can't read back their own work and think...'that just sounds completely thick!' Instead they chuckle to themselves and think...'oh aren't I intelligent...he he he!'

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235776
04/06/04 03:56 PM
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Exactly. It not the amount of fancy words you stick in there. Its what you say that matters. Some people just like to confuse and aggrivate others. Delight in it, in fact.


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Plowking] #235777
04/06/04 03:57 PM
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Oh, and translating is not easy as well ... especially considering so-called "Idioms" ...



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235778
04/06/04 04:58 PM
04/06/04 04:58 PM
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Faralas Offline
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Quote:

I'bve had one very strange incident which I still cannot understand.

It was during my training and we (or class) had to prepare and perform a presentation.

I did mine, and received critics.

However, what I still don't understand - and tht has nothing to do with "skin" or not - was my reaction towards that. I feeled that I had failed.

The only expression I've comme across in the internet to describe what I did is "to freak out". ..."

I can deal with critics, okay, but I still cannot say what might be triggered within me when I read them.

That's my story.

Alrik.





Alrik, I've had a similar reaction while I was at a speaking engagement. I completely and totally 'locked' up when someone asked a question and I 'blanked' out on the answer. I felt like everything up to that point in my life that I had done was complete and utter junk and because I froze, that proved that I was a failure and somehow a fraud. I was able to get through the moment by making a joke out of it, but it really left a mark on me.

I think that happens to a lot of people so whatever you do, don't jump off any bridge. You're not alone. I belong to a writer's group. Two of the members are well-known authors of 'how to' books. One of them had a similar experience to yours. She said she was afraid that maybe everything she's ever written was wrong and somehow she was a big phoney. Turns out one of her biggest fears in life is that she's a fraud. I could relate to her fear because that's how I felt standing in front of a room full of people and I drew a complete blank.

Maybe that has something to do with your reaction. I found it comforting in an odd way to know that this woman felt that vulnerable even though she puts hours of research into every one of her books. It comes with the territory.


Faralas



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235779
04/06/04 06:54 PM
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LUCRETIA Offline
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Quote:


Uhm, I'm sorry, but are you including every single author into this blanket statement? Because you know, most writers start off reading, and reading a lot. Some of the professional authors I've met on the 'Net are avid readers; this I know for a fact. Unpublished authors? Dur; the first advice you're given is to read, read, and read some more.





Nope. I had only one specific in my mind.

@ Janggut
I thank you. You seem to have a good memory since that is something I have explained and apologized many many times.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235780
04/06/04 07:30 PM
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hansolo Offline
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all i know is that rhianna pratchet is hot and I hope shes single and likes rich, handsome, talented men(me)


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: hansolo] #235781
04/06/04 07:53 PM
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I think you maybe 'hand-soloing' for a while longer matey......


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235782
04/06/04 08:22 PM
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Thanks, Farals, I didn't know that this feeling was relatively common.

But anyway, I still fear that feeling.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235783
04/06/04 08:31 PM
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Alrik. Anxiety about public speaking or 'stage fright' is very common. In fact I think everyone has it at some point in their lives.

It happened to me a few years ago. Not because it was my first presentation. Because I got cocky and didn't prepare well enough. I thought I could ad-lib through it but ended up gibbering a load of nonsense. Pretty embarrassing...


" Road rage, air rage. Why should I be forced to divide my rage into seperate categories? To me, it's just one big, all-around, everyday rage. I don't have time for distinctions. I'm too busy screaming at people. " -George Carlin
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Womble] #235784
04/06/04 11:21 PM
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Quote:



I think you maybe 'hand-soloing' for a while longer matey......



Touche!


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235785
05/06/04 04:44 AM
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DEATHATTHEDOOR said:

Quote:

And winterfox: I agree with Lucretia: many "writers" can't read. I don't mean they have insufficient knowledge of the alphabet, but I mean they are unable to read; after they wrote, they simply cannot read what they wrote and see what's wrong.




I still stand by what I said: many writers are their own worst critics, because they can't see the real flaws, but rather, perceive imagined ones. Of course, there's a reason editors/beta-readers exist. (And if you're a writer and have a good, honest one, by whatever deity that you worship, cherish and treasure him/her.) Then again, there're also egomaniac authors who think that, after they've published a number of books and harnessed a raving fanbase, editors' input ceases to be valid. (As I said -- Anne Rice.)

Lucretia said:

Quote:

Nope. I had only one specific in my mind.




Please, do clarify.

Alrik said:

Quote:

However, what I still don't understand - and tht has nothing to do with "skin" or not - was my reaction towards that. I feeled that I had failed.

The only expression I've comme across in the internet to describe what I did is "to freak out". I still don't understand why I had the feeling as if this critic was hitting me to the core , and yes : I definitively mean core. I still don't understand why I reacted so intensively towards relatively rational, unemotional and understandable critics.

I still don't understand or know why I felt this way - being hit so deep - and reconstructing the thing in order to find a clue proved more or less pointless.

The only possible clue I have is that there was no positive criticism (right spelled ?) , but I still don't know.

My feeling was not only that I had failed, by that my work, and everything, including my life, was totally pointless. Being already "hardened" at that point, I could overcome it during several days, otherwise I just would've jumped off the next bridge.




Eh, everyone has an attack of insecurity now and then, including me. However, I have a question to ask: did you agree with any, or all of, the criticism you were given? Another query: someone mentioned "adorant" earlier when addressing you. May I ask what it is?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235786
05/06/04 05:22 AM
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This has been a fabulous read. I do some writing; Highly technical, heavily researched theological articles for one website, and equally well researched game reviews for another. I like to get constructive feedback. Why? I want to improve; I want to do the best job I can and I'll only do that, if I learn from my mistakes. Criticism is a natural part of life. So is failure. We have to learn to handle both, and how we do so, says a great deal about who and what we really are!!


If God said it, then that settles it!!

Editor@RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: corwin] #235787
05/06/04 05:56 AM
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LUCRETIA Offline
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Winterfox said :
Please, do clarify.

Lucretia says :
There is no need for clarification at all. It is obvious.

Adorant is a story that Alrik wrote and kindly shared with us.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235788
05/06/04 06:04 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Winterfox said :
Please, do clarify.

Lucretia says :
There is no need for clarification at all. It is obvious.




Oh, come now, tell the poor uneducated me, please. Surely you wouldn't deny any poor soul of a chance at such profound enlightenment?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: corwin] #235789
05/06/04 06:05 AM
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Quote:

Corwin:
Criticism is a natural part of life. So is failure. We have to learn to handle both, and how we do so, says a great deal about who and what we really are!!




Wise words - if I may add => the way HOW we criticize says a lot about who/what we really are, too.
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235790
05/06/04 01:40 PM
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Once again (another time ) I must agree with Kiya ...

Criticism can be an art : Put so much criticism into it that the criticised one will understand, but also put so much love into it that the criticised one will gain power from the critique.

Another way would be to criticise someone without mercy - the person learns then, too, but the intension is a completely different one.

The latter one could induce the result : "Being criticised is weakness !" thus perhaps leading into emotionless perfectionism.

The fist one could induce : "Being criticised is a chance for making it better !" Thus enhancing ones works meanwhile still being able to put the whole heart into a work.

That's my opinion.



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235791
06/06/04 04:53 AM
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Quote:

Once again (another time ) I must agree with Kiya ...

Criticism can be an art : Put so much criticism into it that the criticised one will understand, but also put so much love into it that the criticised one will gain power from the critique.

Another way would be to criticise someone without mercy - the person learns then, too, but the intension is a completely different one.

The latter one could induce the result : "Being criticised is weakness !" thus perhaps leading into emotionless perfectionism.

The fist one could induce : "Being criticised is a chance for making it better !" Thus enhancing ones works meanwhile still being able to put the whole heart into a work.

That's my opinion.





Or it could result in a, "What the hell, I'll grow some skin" response.

Which reminds me of something. Lucretia, are you still around here? I just had a moment of epiphany, donchaknow. Were you directing your little comment at Leather_Raven?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235792
06/06/04 06:59 AM
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I am always around. No my "little" coment was not refering to Leather_Raven. As I already said with my poor English (perhaps we could continue in Greek, Ancient Greek or Latin, you will not be disapointed then but perhaps... I will be), I liked the novella Leather_Raven wrote. A glass of red wine, some of my very special music and the novella, made 2 afternoons after work very relaxing. But perhaps I should sacrifice all this and start reading the novella trying to find "flaws", mistakes and mesure exactly how much "heart" Leather_Raven have put in this. No thank you.

Strange how "enlightment" works sometimes.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235793
06/06/04 07:46 AM
06/06/04 07:46 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

I am always around. No my "little" coment was not refering to Leather_Raven. As I already said with my poor English (perhaps we could continue in Greek, Ancient Greek or Latin, you will not be disapointed then but perhaps... I will be)




Mmm, want to yak it in Thai? Cantonese, perhaps? You aren't the only multi-lingual person, trust me. *laughs*

Quote:

But perhaps I should sacrifice all this and start reading the novella trying to find "flaws", mistakes and mesure exactly how much "heart" Leather_Raven have put in this. No thank you.




Please, my idealist little friend. Believe me, I didn't read the novella with an eye out for nitpicking. But do understand that some people can be a bit more discerning than you are, hmmm?

Quote:

Strange how "enlightment" works sometimes.




*hands you a sarcasm detector* You need it.

So be direct, m'friend. If you were referring to me, come out and say it.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235794
06/06/04 09:26 AM
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Winterfox, please stop this. It has nothing to do with the novella or writing/literary criticism in general now, but is turning into a senseless win or lose of ego banter and would fit the PM level better.
Thank you in advance,
Kiya

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235795
06/06/04 09:28 AM
06/06/04 09:28 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

I am always around. No my "little" coment was not refering to Leather_Raven. As I already said with my poor English (perhaps we could continue in Greek, Ancient Greek or Latin, you will not be disapointed then but perhaps... I will be)




Mmm, want to yak it in Thai? Cantonese, perhaps? You aren't the only multi-lingual person, trust me. *laughs*

Quote:

But perhaps I should sacrifice all this and start reading the novella trying to find "flaws", mistakes and mesure exactly how much "heart" Leather_Raven have put in this. No thank you.




Please, my idealist little friend. Believe me, I didn't read the novella with an eye out for nitpicking.

Quote:

Strange how "enlightment" works sometimes.




*hands you a sarcasm detector* You need it.

So be direct, m'friend. If you were referring to me, come out and say it.




Winterfox, How come all you ever do is tear someones grammar apart. Is that how you make yourself feel better?? Last time i heard this was a game forum not a grammar lesson.I know only 1 language but i suppose it makes me less intelligent then you doesnt it??

Half of your posts your commenting on someones grammar. sorry but it gets sickening after a while.Im sure theres many grammar forums you could sign up to. Dont bring grammar into a game forum theres no purpous to it here, especially since theres alot of different countries represented on this forum.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Razorsharp] #235796
06/06/04 09:38 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Winterfox, How come all you ever do is tear someones grammar apart. Is that how you make yourself feel better?? Last time i heard this was a game forum not a grammar lesson.I know only 1 language but i suppose it makes me less intelligent then you doesnt it??

Half of your posts your commenting on someones grammar. sorry but it gets sickening after a while.Im sure theres many grammar forums you could sign up to. Dont bring grammar into a game forum theres no purpous to it here, especially since theres alot of different countries represented on this forum.




Okay, which posts, exactly, in this thread did I make that have anything at all to do with grammar?

Kiya said:

Quote:

Winterfox, please stop this. It has nothing to do with the novella or writing/literary criticism in general now, but is turning into a senseless win or lose of ego banter and would fit the PM level better.
Thank you in advance,
Kiya




Sure, but you know, it takes two to tango. I wasn't the first person to start making ad hominem attacks (ala, making implication of "being unable to read"). I'm also genuinely puzzled if Lucretia was referring to me. I mean, that's cute -- I don't think she's ever read anything of mine, let alone sent me critiques.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235797
06/06/04 10:03 AM
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Winterfox, I say it again - please stop.
I am not going to insult your excellent memory and spend a lot of time searching posts where you criticized grammar, writing style of gamers here. Same goes for posts in the chat section dealing with a differing opinion about games and the way these were phrased - on both sides, boiling up. You take pride in using pointed remarks - so, a pointed answer is just a "logical" response. As I would put it: fire causes fire. (Come on,... isn't this a bit of the fun you like? just a wee bit? )

Hey, and a tango entre nous, in private => is far more exciting, don't you think? Memorising my dancing lessons from Esme and Nanny Ogg it takes one to ask for a dance and the second to join.
Kiya <putting on her steel nailed witch boots with poisoned caps, stomping the ground and waiting in anticipation>

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: kiya] #235798
06/06/04 10:24 AM
06/06/04 10:24 AM
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Quote:

Hey, and a tango entre nous, in private




*coughs* I will not think dirty, I will not think dirty.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235799
06/06/04 11:05 AM
06/06/04 11:05 AM
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I see this is rather gone far for a simple misunderstanding. Watch out, Winterfox: Lucretia can be a fierce opponent. Same goes for Lucretia.
It almost saddens me when I see two excellent forum members (and friends) arguing over something even I lost the grasp of .

Peace

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235800
06/06/04 11:15 AM
06/06/04 11:15 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

I see this is rather gone far for a simple misunderstanding. Watch out, Winterfox: Lucretia can be a fierce opponent. Same goes for Lucretia.
It almost saddens me when I see two excellent forum members (and friends) arguing over something even I lost the grasp of .

Peace




I'm not sure what the something is, either, which is why I've been asking Lucretia.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235801
06/06/04 11:31 AM
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What I understood is the following:
When Lucretia spoke of illeterate people, you took it as a direct insult and replied.

Now if Lucretia meant you, when talking about people who can't read, I have no idea. I seriously doubt it, though: it's not for Lucretia to start a flamewar (or sarcasmwar, in this situation).

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235802
06/06/04 11:38 AM
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No, this is what she said:

Quote:

I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others.




So, I asked her if she was generalizing and including every author. She said no, and that she had one specific person in mind; I asked just who exactly. She said "There is no need for clarification at all. It is obvious."

The only author whose work has been discussed in this thread is Leather_Raven. Since Lucretia persists in not defining the individual, it's either an insult toward someone, or some obscure arcane ninja secret. Incidentally, I find it amusing that some people got defensive of Leather_Raven; my critiques hardly included personal attacks, and weren't even remotely pugnacious.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235803
06/06/04 12:10 PM
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Winterfox - a post does not only contain mere info, but the way it is phrased, implements a non-verbal message, targeting emotions. This goes for the written and the spoken word as well.

Quote:

I suppose it's the same reason game reviewers who point out perfectly reasonable flaws of a game get flamed. (Because said game, in the fan's eye, is perfect and the mere thought of a flaw is blasphemous! Oh no!)




this one is a very good example to explain what I mean =>

1.: where is your main impact? Words or tone? Why? Because a flaw in the eye of one gamer, might be fun for the other. Sentences used in the form of statements, instead of stating clearly the own subjective point of view tend to be taken as an insult or patronage, thus triggering emotions instead of brains. (Referring to your remarks in brackets)

2.: Veiled messages. Using an information to transport an undercover non-verbal message, turns into a lose-lose ego-battle strategy. Sender sends veiled message, reader/listener responds to the non-verbal one. Sender insists on written/spoken word - the other part still stresses the impact, the veiled message has.

Paul Watzlawick may be available in your country or Schulz von Thun? Both authors wrote about communication psychology.

Watzlawick (from amazon.com):
The Situation Is Hopeless, but Not Serious (The Pursuit of Unhappiness)
How Real Is Real?
Pragmatics of Human Communication: A Study of Interactional Patterns, Pathologies, and Paradoxes
Ultra-Solutions: How to Fail Most Successfully

sadly, Schulz von Thun seems only available on the German market.

Another book, dealing with human interaction is:

Eric Berne: Games people play: The basic handbook of transactional analysis. => it lists transactional analytic "games" people use to misunderstand each other, specializes on the ways how to use phrases/behaviour as a destructive form of interaction - ritualised and tending to cause frustration, as all parties take fun in putting each other down, by mixing up verbal/non-verbal messages - a method mainly caused by own passive-aggressive behaviour and the inability to show inner/outer clarity. (and it's GREAT fun, to use this knowledge in detecting other people play games )

Eric Berne: Beyond Games and Scripts => for those wishing clear and honest interaction and being able to choose, which form the other has and how to respond - either by boiling up aggression or starting genuine communication. Or at least to know, which price the sender/listener is willing to pay, if he chooses the one or other level).

Thomas Harris: I'm OK-You're OK => popular psychology to explain human interaction via Transactional Analysis, depending on your own view of life and life pattern.

Kiya

Last edited by kiya; 06/06/04 01:04 PM.
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235804
06/06/04 01:07 PM
06/06/04 01:07 PM
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In Antwort auf:

I wasn't the first person to start making ad hominem attacks (ala, making implication of "being unable to read").




That means if this was interpreted as an attack. Was it the intention so ? I don't know.

First principle of Huna : The world is like you think it is.

In Antwort auf:

I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others.




I agree with that - regarding so-called "high literature". Writers who believe themselves to write "high literature" usually tend to consider Fan Fiction, Children Books and everything else to be "inferior". That's at least my own opinion. You can expand this into Art as well.

I was young and went to a local museum asking whether they would show my works, but no, the woman responsible for tht said, "we usually use arrived artists", in this sense.

I don't know *any* museum exclusively for you, unknown artists - and even for contemporary art you'll have troubles finding some ! Rembrandt and Picasso and Goethe are the big artists, but no-one in the "literary circles" and things like that are interested in young, unkown professionals who bring fresh wind into the scene ! Like a Zombie !

Okay, this was a bit harsh, but that's my opinio0n, generally speaking.



Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 06/06/04 01:15 PM.

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235805
06/06/04 02:20 PM
06/06/04 02:20 PM
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Faralas Offline
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Quote:

No, this is what she said:

Quote:

I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others.




So, I asked her if she was generalizing and including every author. She said no, and that she had one specific person in mind; I asked just who exactly. She said "There is no need for clarification at all. It is obvious."

The only author whose work has been discussed in this thread is Leather_Raven. Since Lucretia persists in not defining the individual, it's either an insult toward someone, or some obscure arcane ninja secret. Incidentally, I find it amusing that some people got defensive of Leather_Raven; my critiques hardly included personal attacks, and weren't even remotely pugnacious.




This discussion has gone so far off topic, that pasting the icon next to this sentence is an understatement.

This is ridiculous because whatever Lucretia's answer is, it won't satisfy Winterfox. If you truly want to dissect the art and craft of writing and/or whom each of you considers good authors, then do so. But this incessant fishing on your part, Winterfox is non-productive. It's obvious Lucretia has not answered your question to your satisfaction. And at this point, I doubt she will. So, drop it or better yet, take it to the PMs.


Faralas






Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Faralas] #235806
06/06/04 03:18 PM
06/06/04 03:18 PM
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Quote:

This discussion has gone so far off topic, that pasting the icon next to this sentence is an understatement.



When i opened this thread i could not imagine that it was going to be so much successful

Of course it is off-topic but these discussions about fantastic litterature and the difficulties to be a writer are very interesting for everybody in the forum.

About the novella, i did not have time to read it for the moment but i enjoy very much the dialogs written by Rhianna in Beyond divinity.

Barta

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Barta] #235807
06/06/04 05:10 PM
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Sorry I am late but I was asleep. Well Faralas spoke for me. Why I will not give an answer? Mainly because I respect older forum members in here. And if their desire is this to stop I will be the first to do it. Other than that I don't want to. Because I like so. My opinion on the novella is already expressed as far as the topic is concerned and whoever has any questions my pm is wide open. If I am in the mood, I might answer.

*Lucretia hands the sarcasm detector back to Winterfox*
Keep it. You will need it more than me.

@ Kiya
You will never stop amazing me.

*Lucretia stretches*
Better get some coffee.


Last edited by LUCRETIA; 06/06/04 06:03 PM.

You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235808
06/06/04 07:58 PM
06/06/04 07:58 PM
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Quote:

*Lucretia stretches*
Better get some coffee.




Of course the famous greek coffee! Nevertheless, nothing beats a generous cup of Earl Grey with lemon.
Did you know the best way to wake up? Quickly bite into a lemon. I guarantee it would keep you awake for at least a week .

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235809
06/06/04 08:00 PM
06/06/04 08:00 PM
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Bravo.



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235810
06/06/04 08:04 PM
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Vividly imagine the taste works qite good, too !



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235811
06/06/04 08:09 PM
06/06/04 08:09 PM
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@ DATD
Oh I am sorry I don't disagree that green tea is very tastefull but we usually drink it with honey when we are ill. . And there is a species that is growing only in Greek mountains that we call it Mountain Tea and has very curative attributes.
Lemon Hate sour things


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LUCRETIA] #235812
07/06/04 02:26 AM
07/06/04 02:26 AM
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to everyone,

while i think winterfox can be very nasty (though honestly i find it makes her more colourful), let's not jump on her like that. it's just her way of saying things, i guess. so please, winterfox, next time do carry a kinder, gentler machine gun.

@ alrik -> dude, i'm sorry that u have to go through that kind of hell (critics literally pissing on your work, like in mel brook's History Of The World Part 1). anyway, winterfox's advice on growing skin is very sound & i do have quite thick a skin. just that i don't know if it can withstand winterfox's acid test. (please, winterfox, i don't want to find out )

@ faralas -> awfully nice of u to relate to us your experiences & letting alrik know that he's not alone in 'who hasn't got pissed by critics?' scenario. i teach computer course & i do get into such sitations when my mind just go blank & i cannot grasp even a thought. oh heck, i gave the students break so i could compose myself & get it over with.

@ kiya -> i'll have to check out those books! it may be more useful to me than winterfox. oh yeah, i GOT problems!

@ winterfox -> don't u dare back out of the forum now. i haven't finish studying your character.

@ deathatthedoor -> dude, are u really reformed? who brain-washed u? where's that nastiness death always wields at the door? man, i swear u're going mellow.

*janggut likes his chilli hot*

Last edited by janggut; 07/06/04 02:27 AM.


......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235813
07/06/04 02:52 AM
07/06/04 02:52 AM
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Janggut said:

Quote:

@ winterfox -> don't u dare back out of the forum now. i haven't finish studying your character.




Don't worry; there's a reason I constantly preach "grow skin!" I can take as much as I dish out.

Kiya said:

Quote:

1.: where is your main impact? Words or tone? Why? Because a flaw in the eye of one gamer, might be fun for the other. Sentences used in the form of statements, instead of stating clearly the own subjective point of view tend to be taken as an insult or patronage, thus triggering emotions instead of brains. (Referring to your remarks in brackets)




There are things that are not subjective, however. Take, for instance, a reviewer on FF.net. I've seen many cases where a reviewer -- not myself, mind you -- expresses, very gently and politely, that the author's grammar/punctuation needs serious work. What do the author's rabid fans do? Jump on the poor reviewer and scream expletives.

Barta said:

Quote:

About the novella, i did not have time to read it for the moment but i enjoy very much the dialogs written by Rhianna in Beyond divinity.




She wrote the dialogue in the game, as well? Oh.

Incidentally, I've found a journal that's a fair treasure trove of writing advice: Arin i Asolde.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235814
07/06/04 02:53 AM
07/06/04 02:53 AM
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LewsTherinKinslayer13 Offline
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She wrote the dialogue in the game, as well? Oh.
--------

whats that suppoused to mean?




BTW, Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert

Last edited by LewsTherinKinslayer13; 07/06/04 02:56 AM.


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: janggut] #235815
07/06/04 03:00 AM
07/06/04 03:00 AM
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I liked the Novella, personally

Being something of an amateur writer myself, I know that writers tend to judge themselves more keenly than any critic ever will. On the day you decide your work is perfect, your talent vanishes. Self satisfaction is the death of creativity.

A writer may believe themselves better (Or worse) than other writers, but no writer worthy of the name is ever completely satisfied with their own work


Please click the banner...
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235816
07/06/04 03:05 AM
07/06/04 03:05 AM
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Quote:

BTW, Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert Frank Herbert


famous quote by Lews

err... dude, u're stating the overly obvious. winterfox loves frank herbert's dune. or are u implying something else?



......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: janggut] #235817
07/06/04 03:08 AM
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Hmm, what do you mean, what are you talking about?



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235818
07/06/04 03:40 AM
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Elliot_Kane said:

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A writer may believe themselves better (Or worse) than other writers, but no writer worthy of the name is ever completely satisfied with their own work




Exactly. I can say, with reasonable confidence, that I can write better than a number of people -- but that's not much of an achievement, considering that these people in question type like an untrained ape banging its fists randomly on the keyboard. I can also name a lot of amateur writers who are way, way ahead of me. And I'll never, ever, be completely happy with anything I've produced. Always there is room for improvement.

Lews said:

Quote:

whats that suppoused to mean?




I didn't know that she wrote the dialogue in the game, too. Yes, yes, do hand me a clue, and next time I'll look at the credits first.

As for Frank Herbert -- hey, I love Dune very, very much. (Though God Emperor of Dune was... well.) What about it?

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235819
07/06/04 03:50 AM
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Quote:

Elliot_Kane said:

Quote:


A writer may believe themselves better (Or worse) than other writers, but no writer worthy of the name is ever completely satisfied with their own work




Exactly. I can say, with reasonable confidence, that I can write better than a number of people -- but that's not much of an achievement, considering that these people in question type like an untrained ape banging its fists randomly on the keyboard. I can also name a lot of amateur writers who are way, way ahead of me. And I'll never, ever, be completely happy with anything I've produced. Always there is room for improvement.




I completely agree, Winterfox. A 'true' writer's attitude, IMO


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235820
07/06/04 03:58 AM
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Quote:

I completely agree, Winterfox. A 'true' writer's attitude, IMO




Even more fun -- have you ever agonized over a single word in a single sentence for minutes, rather than just go ahead and finish the bloody passage already? I've had several occasions where a metaphor is desperately strained, or a sentence is hopelessly awful, and it takes several tinkerings to get out something that wouldn't set people's teeth on edge or stick out like a sore thumb.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235821
07/06/04 04:04 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

I completely agree, Winterfox. A 'true' writer's attitude, IMO




Even more fun -- have you ever agonized over a single word in a single sentence for minutes, rather than just go ahead and finish the bloody passage already? I've had several occasions where a metaphor is desperately strained, or a sentence is hopelessly awful, and it takes several tinkerings to get out something that wouldn't set people's teeth on edge or stick out like a sore thumb.




Only all the time!

The whole line just reads wrong for some odd reason and you know there is a better word somewhere and it's right on the tip of your tongue...

And there is no blasted way you could possibly leave it and get back to it, because it will devour all your concentration until it's dealt with...

Writer's Hell


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235822
07/06/04 04:12 AM
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Quote:


Only all the time!

The whole line just reads wrong for some odd reason and you know there is a better word somewhere and it's right on the tip of your tongue...

And there is no blasted way you could possibly leave it and get back to it, because it will devour all your concentration until it's dealt with...

Writer's Hell




Yes!

Worse yet, I'm frequently struck with the procrastination demon. I know I can finish this scene; I have all the words ready to fire -- but they just don't want to come out. My attention keeps getting diverted by something else, and before I know it, two hours have already passed and nothing's gotten done. Argh.

Another quirk is when the story runs away. Take the fanfic linked in my signature. Originally, I set out to write something fairly short. Like ten chapters, maximum. Now what I end up is a lot of plot threads -- fourteen chapters, four interludes and counting. The characters begin to write themselves and sometimes do what I didn't plan for them to do at all. It's fun, and writing such a thing provides as much surprise for me as for the reader, but I despair at the indication of my organizational skill.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235823
07/06/04 04:17 AM
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are u trying to say that u recommended frank herbert's books? or do u want to point out weaknesses in his works? or how he cannot take criticism? or i don't know?

if u're just as perplexed, then never mind my post.

@ winterfox -> about your KOTOR fanfic & especially your allegedly(sp?) disorganisation, well, i hope u just write it all out & not worry about self-imposed limitations. there're always the editor & critique to slash them all to bits. in another words; i honestly think u cannot write well while chanting '5000 words' incessantly. or have u done so?

Last edited by janggut; 07/06/04 04:29 AM.


......a gift from LaFille......
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235824
07/06/04 04:22 AM
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Quote:

Worse yet, I'm frequently struck with the procrastination demon. I know I can finish this scene; I have all the words ready to fire -- but they just don't want to come out. My attention keeps getting diverted by something else, and before I know it, two hours have already passed and nothing's gotten done. Argh.

Another quirk is when the story runs away. Take the fanfic linked in my signature. Originally, I set out to write something fairly short. Like ten chapters, maximum. Now what I end up is a lot of plot threads -- fourteen chapters, four interludes and counting. The characters begin to write themselves and sometimes do what I didn't plan for them to do at all. It's fun, and writing such a thing provides as much surprise for me as for the reader, but I despair at the indication of my organizational skill.




All good characters want to have input in the story They seem to take on a life of their own inside your mind, and add lines and come up with plans when you don't really expect them to...

I know what you mean about story stretch! You plan on a short conversation, but your character(s) have a lot more to say than you ever imagined and before you know it, you run out of the current chapter and have to start a new one

I tend to just let them get on with telling their story in their own way! The end result is usually better for it

Writing is kind of like freeform acting on paper, IMO


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: janggut] #235825
07/06/04 04:22 AM
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Quote:

are u trying to say that u recommended frank herbert's books? or do u want to point out weaknesses in his works? or how he cannot take criticism? or i don't know?

if u're just as perplexed, then never mind my post.




I'm just as bemused as you are, so... (i.e., why was Frank Herbert brought up at all?)

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235826
07/06/04 04:26 AM
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Quote:

I tend to just let them get on with telling their story in their own way! The end result is usually better for it

Writing is kind of like freeform acting on paper, IMO




Absolutely. Stop the characters from what they really want to do, and they go on strike. *g*

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235827
07/06/04 04:27 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

I tend to just let them get on with telling their story in their own way! The end result is usually better for it

Writing is kind of like freeform acting on paper, IMO




Absolutely. Stop the characters from what they really want to do, and they go on strike. *g*




LOL Too true!


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235828
07/06/04 04:58 AM
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Lol. Tonight I was telling my Mum of my plans on books to get to read over the summer and I mentioned Dune.

"Hmm? Dune? Go look in the library Dear, under Herbert"
"ok"

I walk into our library ( My Dad used to be a Junior High Lit teacher and my Mom has a PhD in Philosphy on books. She also used to teach Lit in college, figures, so we have a TON of books at home).

I find the H section. errg. Its huge! I find the G section, and the E. Wait. Where was the H? I go back and find 2 books of his Dune. and Dune something or other, can't remember.
Oh well, I got 1 of the 10.



Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235829
07/06/04 06:12 AM
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Ever woke up at 3am with either the greatest idea ever, or the solution to that frustrating sentence that just won't hang together, determined not to forget it, if only you could force yourself to get up and write it down? Do you ever write it down, or do you ever remember it all when you next wake up? I once, blindly, wrote something down, but for the life of me, it didn't make any sense when I tried to read it later. That's another joy of writing.


If God said it, then that settles it!!

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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: corwin] #235830
07/06/04 07:15 AM
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Lews: the complete original Dune series consists of five books -- I haven't read any of the prequel by his son, due to being told that they aren't worth the read. Anyway, the five books are (in this order) Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse of Dune.

Quote:

Ever woke up at 3am with either the greatest idea ever, or the solution to that frustrating sentence that just won't hang together, determined not to forget it, if only you could force yourself to get up and write it down? Do you ever write it down, or do you ever remember it all when you next wake up? I once, blindly, wrote something down, but for the life of me, it didn't make any sense when I tried to read it later. That's another joy of writing.




I can be quite extreme when inspiration strikes me. (Even if, yes, it's just a single sentence to replace that awkward sentence I was brodding over.) I'd actually get up, grab a pen and write it down. (Middle of night, mid-meal, whatever -- it doesn't matter; nothing short of a divine intervention will stop me from jotting something down. *g*) I can usually make sense of it after, though.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Winterfox] #235831
07/06/04 09:08 AM
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For clarification, and because I don’t want to do down Bronthion's work, I worked on the dialogues in the game, I didn’t 100% write them. It was an editing and rewriting process really, and even then I didn’t see everything alas, especially the battlefield stuff. Some are more my work than others, like the mad prisoner, the skull, the skeletons and the DK obsessed medical officer.

However, there are about 3000 words of book/letter/scroll texts dotted around the game that I wrote from scratch. If you’ve read the novella you might be able to tell from the stuff which ones are mine


Re: @ Rhianna [Re: corwin] #235832
07/06/04 10:13 AM
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Elliot_Kane Offline
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Quote:

Ever woke up at 3am with either the greatest idea ever, or the solution to that frustrating sentence that just won't hang together, determined not to forget it, if only you could force yourself to get up and write it down? Do you ever write it down, or do you ever remember it all when you next wake up? I once, blindly, wrote something down, but for the life of me, it didn't make any sense when I tried to read it later. That's another joy of writing.




I get up and write it. Even if I can barely think coherently, and I'm nearly asleep. A story idea is a precious thing - and dreams are great for inspiration, sometimes


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Leather_Raven] #235833
07/06/04 10:19 AM
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My own thoughts about Frank Herbert (common German name; at first I thought he *was* a German ) :

- I read it (the first book) as a teenager. While I found the general concept very creative, I didn't find the whole outcome very appealing - no tension, no other things I like to read ... I thought the book lacked several things I like to read. It was not a "living" story, but a weird Science-Fiction story to me. I couldn't imagine the protagonists as breathing people, but rather the book seemed to me as an expression of his whole (creative) concepts.

- As you might have already read between the ines, I didn't like the overall tone of the book. I didn't have the feeling as if it was written with the heart, but rather with tools.

- I haven't read the book since (and that's more than 10 years ago, although I once took a brief look into it).

- I wish I could be as productive as him. I really wish I could produce ten books a year or so. But I'm not.

Alrik.


P.S. :
In Antwort auf:

A story idea is a precious thing




So precious that you should never let it out. There are people out there terying to steal this one from you, trying to sell it as their own idea, and even later try to evoke a lawsuit on that on you if you publish your own initial idea / story.
There has been a very nasty report on boards.theforce.net : One there wrote about someone giving in a story idea to a Star Trek Seruies (DS9 ?) , he was asked *everything* about his idea, even invited to show how the thought it, but was rejected, and the story later appeared in the series, with the Invitor as credity. Weird.


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 07/06/04 10:24 AM.

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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235834
07/06/04 10:25 AM
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Just as an aside - and in the unlikely event that anyone actually cares - I am currently writing a lot of fanfic set in the world of American comics company Marvel. The curious (Or those seeking ammunition ) can find links to most of my work here

This is something of a training excercise for me, and I like to think I am improving. It's a good theory


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235835
07/06/04 10:28 AM
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Elliot_Kane Offline
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Alrik...

I publicly post a lot of my stories - which also gives me a fair few witnesses if some rat tries to snaffle them


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235836
07/06/04 10:31 AM
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I also write a little bit Fan Fiction - Star Wars related.

Look out for the Adorant; I have posted links in that thread.

By the way : What about a whole new thread about Writing in General in the Chat area ?


Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 07/06/04 10:34 AM.

When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
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"Interplay�.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: @ Rhianna [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #235837
07/06/04 10:45 AM
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Sounds like a good idea, Alrik I am definitely getting the impression we have a lot of writers here

Your idea, so up to you to start, I think


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235838
07/06/04 10:47 AM
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Winterfox Offline
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Quote:

Just as an aside - and in the unlikely event that anyone actually cares - I am currently writing a lot of fanfic set in the world of American comics company Marvel. The curious (Or those seeking ammunition ) can find links to most of my work here

This is something of a training excercise for me, and I like to think I am improving. It's a good theory




I'd love to read it, but unfortunately, I know precisely jack squat about the Marvel fandoms. Currently, I'm writing a KotOR fanfic -- linked in my signature -- and otherwise I haunt the LOTR and Forgotten Realms fandoms.

Re: @ Rhianna #235839
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Quote:

Quote:

Just as an aside - and in the unlikely event that anyone actually cares - I am currently writing a lot of fanfic set in the world of American comics company Marvel. The curious (Or those seeking ammunition ) can find links to most of my work here

This is something of a training excercise for me, and I like to think I am improving. It's a good theory




I'd love to read it, but unfortunately, I know precisely jack squat about the Marvel fandoms. Currently, I'm writing a KotOR fanfic -- linked in my signature -- and otherwise I haunt the LOTR and Forgotten Realms fandoms.




You might find the Elsa Bloodstone stories readable anyway. She's a character so obscure most of my readers thought I invented her - so absolutely no prior knowledge is needed there

The same cannot reasonably be said of X-Force, which is definitely continuity heavy. I'm writing that in collaboration with someone else, and while we have tried to make it accesible to new readers, I am not sure we have entirely succeeded. Reader opinion is somewhat divided on that score...


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: LewsTherinKinslayer13] #235840
07/06/04 12:08 PM
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Quote:

@ deathatthedoor -> dude, are u really reformed? who brain-washed u? where's that nastiness death always wields at the door? man, i swear u're going mellow.




I am always like that where there are no fools to citisise.

Quote:

Even more fun -- have you ever agonized over a single word in a single sentence for minutes, rather than just go ahead and finish the bloody passage already? I've had several occasions where a metaphor is desperately strained, or a sentence is hopelessly awful, and it takes several tinkerings to get out something that wouldn't set people's teeth on edge or stick out like a sore thumb.




That's a question of being a perfectionist.

Watch out, Elliot_Kane: Marvel becomes jealous when their fans make something with their heroes. I still can't and won't forgive Marvel for forbidding all Marvel-related mods for Freedom Force. They almost sued the fansite!

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235841
07/06/04 12:21 PM
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Quote:

That's a question of being a perfectionist.




Erm... guilty as charged?

Seriously, though, I know that if I do that all the time, nothing'd ever get written. Sadly, since I'm not half as good an author as I'd like to be, moments like that still occur every now and then.

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235842
07/06/04 12:21 PM
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Thanks for the warning, DATD

If Marvel go after fanfic writers though, they will piss off huge amounts of their fanbase for no good reason, as there are a LOT of fic writers out there - none of whom make any money out of it.

Marvel might conceivably have viewed the FF mods as a way of encouraging players to buy the game through the use of Marvel characters - no such reason exists to go after fic writers.

They certainly have the right to request all fics be removed from the web, but by doing so they would remove a form of free publicity that might actually encourage more readers to try their comics - so they tend to turn a blind eye


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235843
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Quote:

Thanks for the warning, DATD

If Marvel go after fanfic writers though, they will piss off huge amounts of their fanbase for no good reason, as there are a LOT of fic writers out there - none of whom make any money out of it.

Marvel might conceivably have viewed the FF mods as a way of encouraging players to buy the game through the use of Marvel characters - no such reason exists to go after fic writers.

They certainly have the right to request all fics be removed from the web, but by doing so they would remove a form of free publicity that might actually encourage more readers to try their comics - so they tend to turn a blind eye




Yes but it was almost 2 years after the game release...

Re: @ Rhianna [Re: DEATHATTHEDOOR] #235844
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True, DATD, true...


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Re: @ Rhianna [Re: Elliot_Kane] #235845
07/06/04 10:14 PM
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Im reading Dune currently, and let me go check what other book I have *runs to library* Dune Messiah.



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