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Yannos #235745 03/06/04 09:45 PM
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Oh is it called The Wizard's First rule in America? I always thought it was called "Sword of Truth". And yeah, sometimes it might be cliched but I like the roughness of the story, meaning all the stuff you wouldn't see in most fantasy books like the killing, language and a lot sexual content. Just made it look more medieval and gritty to me.

I cannot disagree except that in the middle ages, everyone were stupid (no education except for the nobles), ugly (bad health conditions and no medicine) and the lifespan was maximum 40 years. Speaking of rough, try George R. R. Martin.

Kiya: I grew up on those books. In addition, as you noted, I am a bit of troll myself <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

I always pitied Mora <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />


kiya #235746 03/06/04 09:47 PM
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Can anyone please explain what they are ? A link ?

I remember creatures with that name from TV when I was a young boy ... I don't know whether it's the same ...


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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

There were japanese cartoons made under the supervision of Jansson.

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Same here, Death - I felt very sorry for Mora. I recall I cried as a child, because she would never have friends - as everything started to freeze in her presence. And the gem... was just a very poor token to comfort her in her loneliness.

Alrik, yes, there was a TV series - but not as good as the original books with their drawings.

Tove Jansson: Die Mumins - they were trolls (or I think they can be called trolls).

further German titles, just a few of them:
Mumins wundersame Inselabenteuer
Herbst im Mumintal
Sturm im Mumintal

kiya #235749 03/06/04 10:01 PM
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Ah ! I remember them ! And there was / is really a series of books about them ? I never knew that ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

EDIT : I'm just using Google about the Moomins ... and I see that there is already a Petition on bringing them on DVD ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
http://www.petitiononline.com/moomins/petition.html

Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 03/06/04 10:06 PM.

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Harry Potter
------

Oh my gosh!!! The first time I read those books I liked them so much!
OH MY GOSH! The secound time I read th ose books I wannted to kill myself!!!


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />

TP!!!!

Thanks to the forum for telling me of him *drools* .

Robert Jordan is good, but I will never get finished.
I want to reasd Mr. Martin's work. and DUNE.

E. Nesbit anybody? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />



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There was also another version of the Moomins screened in the UK that looked like it was made using animated fuzzy felts, if anyone remembers those!

Leather_Raven #235752 04/06/04 12:54 AM
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I have several E Nesbit books and have read them all, but then I've read about 10k books at least. I have over 3k in my house.


If God said it, then that settles it!!

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corwin #235753 04/06/04 03:58 AM
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I grew up on Roald Dahl's non-kiddie stuff (the horror stories, the... less than fluffy things), and first read Terry Pratchett's Wyrd Sisters at the age of eleven or so. Might explain a few things. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

At the moment, I like popular fantasy fiction less and less -- Sword of Truth is going down the drain with repetitive plots and thinly veiled political preaching (on top of preaching about everything else). Harry Potter is a fun, light read, but hardly the masterpiece the hype makes it out to be; the latest volume, I think, also leaves something to be desired. A Song of Ice and Fire, though, is easily one of my favourites. I'll also soon be re-reading Dune (yay political intrigue -- "a plot within a plot within a plot"), which my beta-reader fairly worships. I'm slowly edging toward science fiction.

On other things: the "I write for myself" thing has always puzzled me. IMO, if you put up your work for public consumption, it is implicit that you want feedback. If you wrote for yourself, you'd have kept your writing to yourself. This is especially true for professionally published writing: to put it bluntly and harshly, you're writing something to sell. And you don't get to choose your audience; anything in public view is fair game and subject to all type of criticism. The public is about as loving and caring as a rusty iron maiden, and editors are not obliged to be humane or even remotely nice. (I've read someone else's rejection slip that doesn't say much aside from -- paraphrased -- "your writing is frankly infantile." You think I'm harsh? Meet disgruntled editors who have to read hundreds of submitted manuscripts from hopeful aspiring writers.)

I'm also -- no offense -- leery around anyone who claims that his/her writing is "art" and is therefore, somehow, not subject to criticism. Common excuses include, "But you can't possibly understand what I'm trying to convey!" or "But this is my style -- if I listen to your critiques, I'd become a mindless conformist drone!" Nope. E.E. Cummings you are not; win a Pulitzer Prize or something first and maybe your argument will have merits. If your writing is unclear, or makes me want to fall asleep, or simply awfully written, it doesn't matter if you think it's art or some sacred magnum opus. Doesn't matter if you think you're sending out some profound message. You're just being pretentious. It's also a little naive to think that every writer writes for the pleasure or love of the craft; many fanpoodles want attention and ego-stroking. At the first sign of negative criticism, they'll scream "You are so MEAN!" or "You have no life!" Don't believe me? Pay FF.net a visit.

A recent author temper tantrum on a community I frequent reminds me of something. The author was screaming that she had a dislocated hip when she wrote her story -- which was being torn apart -- and that she has a "ruined" physical condition, as well as the fact that she had put so much heart into writing the thing in question. Fun was had by all, because nobody gives a fig. The majority of readers won't care if you poured your soul into writing something, or your puppy died, or your relative committed suicide (cry me a river, and drown in it, please) -- what they will judge is what you have written and put up for their view. The conditions under which you worked don't matter. Only the end product does. No more, no less.

(Note: I'm not addressing anyone in particular; this is just a rant directed at the people who have behaved as indicated in my post, ala the whining fanbrats on FF.net, the self-righteous "artists" I've often run into, et all.)

Winterfox #235754 04/06/04 04:21 AM
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by ff.net you probably mean fanfiction.net, no?

Everything you just said, Winterfox, applies to art in general: all mediums, especially imagery.
For someone, a crude line and three dots on a blue background is art. To me, it's just some guy who made a picture in 5 minutes and spend the rest of the day convincing everyone arround him that it's a 'chez d'oeuvre'.
Like this joke I remember for 4 years already:
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"A rich man goes see a popular modern painter. He enters the room and sees the painter working on his arts. "Why," asks the man, "are all your paintings looking so weird?". - "Because that's how I see," answered the egoisting artist.
- "Then why don't you wear glasses?"

Writing in general is an art, but 4/5 of every specific piece of text isn't. Even if it is, it doesn't mean that Art isn't to be subjected to comments.
Of course, many (if not most) artists want praise, otherwise they wouldn't display anything. Many of them think their work is perfect. In their eyes, it is, at least for the first moment. I'll admit thay myself, I become discouraged when I get too much negative comments but I know that if such is the case, my drawing must REALLY suck. Also, critic is the only possible way to improuvement. I always ask for honest opinion yet often I do not get one.
The people you described are your typical sad wannabees. I believe that you have read quite curious little stories on that site, such as eye-watering [pseudp]romantic stories or some epic nonsence...
One thing I don't understand.
If your text/picture/song is simply godawful, there'll be at LEAST one good comment about it. The question is: is this comment from someone who trully likes it or he is just being mercyful?

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Of course, many (if not most) artists want praise, otherwise they wouldn't display anything.


Yes. Heck, I appreciate positive comments; I've been getting many for my latest fanfic, and I'm not going to scorn them and say "Mindless praise! Shut up!" to my reviewers. The thing is, while they give me the warm fuzzies, I don't let them get to my head. Some readers' responses do tell me that I've succeeded in certain areas (evoking sympathy for Darth Malak, for example), but I'm not going to strut around and preen. I've got an honest beta-reader; my paper bleeds red ink when I print my stories out for self-editing. Combined, those are ample reminders for me that I'm no literary genius. (I do admit, though, to taking pride in the fact that most of my reviews are correctly punctuated, spelled, and indicate intelligence. *grins* Ahem, a moment of conceit here.)

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In their eyes, it is, at least for the first moment. I'll admit thay myself, I become discouraged when I get too much negative comments but I know that if such is the case, my drawing must REALLY suck.


Someone told me that, if one person remarks that it is bad, your work might simply not please everyone. If several people start giving the same criticism, on the other hand...

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If your text/picture/song is simply godawful, there'll be at LEAST one good comment about it. The question is: is this comment from someone who trully likes it or he is just being mercyful?


There's an audience for everything; the hundreds of glowing reviews the fanbrats on FF.net get are proof of that. However, I do notice that a lot people try to be nice and adhere to the school of thought: "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." (Which would, y'know, result in stagnation.)

Winterfox #235756 04/06/04 06:42 AM
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[quoteI do admit, though, to taking pride in the fact that most of my reviews are correctly punctuated, spelled, and indicate intelligence. *grins* Ahem, a moment of conceit here. [quote]

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ROFL.gif" alt="" /> i have to write this one down! maybe i'll make a fanfic out of your 'character'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />



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Winterfox #235757 04/06/04 07:09 AM
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Wilhelm Bush once said ==> Those who can't write, write critics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />

Winterfox, I view this "vanity fair" in art (exhibitions) and writer circles day by day at my library (on both sides, creator and critic). That's why my boss has to drag me screaming, writhing and cussing to these "pleasures". In fact, he has nearly given up, because his "enfant terrible" has embarrassed him too often <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin1.gif" alt="" /> (I just can't resist pricking overblown egos and watch them fizzing around like a defect air balloon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

I need reviews to decide if I buy certain media or not - Thank God, librarians doing this job for other libraries and helping us in this way, are a bit more down-to-earth. Still, I need to read between the lines, instead of just following a recommendation. If I would blindly, we'd have nearly NO fantasy fiction at all, specially not the heroic epic one. I buy what my members want to read => and if they want Nora Roberts or Kathleen Woodiwiss, Rebecca Gable, Gabaldon, Star Wars Jedi quest series, Stephen King => so be it. And if books having won countless prizes dust in the shelf, I chuck it out after a few years or put it into our magazines, in case pupils need it for school lecture. Why? Because I buy with tax money and want to reach as many people as possible. It's not my job to educate and teach people what "good" literature is, I leave this up to intellectual critics - and amuse myself. Readers have their own rules, dislikes and preferences - as I have - and I prefer a self-confident reader making her/his own choice much more than those following recommendations.

Kiya

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kiya #235758 04/06/04 07:30 AM
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Wilhelm Bush once said ==> Those who can't write, write critics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />


I write. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I consider myself an average writer with occasional above-average flashes, but there you go.

Winterfox #235759 04/06/04 07:32 AM
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so you can play the vanity fair from both sides <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

kiya #235760 04/06/04 07:42 AM
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so you can play the vanity fair from both sides <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/delight.gif" alt="" />
Kiya


Oh, yes. A lot of people whose writing I've criticized respond with "Can you do better? Huh, huh?" I smile and link them to my FF.net profile. I have yet to get any solid critiques from these slighted poor itty-bitty souls. ("You have no life" and "you're a heartless female dog" don't count, since they pertain not at all to my writing abilities.)

Winterfox #235761 04/06/04 09:12 AM
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I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others. The fact that in the end the readers are the ones who make the choice is very pleasant. Thank Gods there are bookstores in which you can stay in for hours and see the books, read the back cover, see the front cover, smell it, drink a coffee and then decide where to spend your money.
(I am not talking about libraries cause I never go there. Not because I do not like them but because I want every book I read to stay in my library, I so I buy them all).

Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.


You can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything...

LUCRETIA #235762 04/06/04 09:47 AM
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I think that the main problem writers have is that they can not read. Yeap. Cause they think that their work is better than the others.


Snarky bit: you mean, writers can't read? Damn, that must be tough for 'em. Can't self-edit and do drafts and all that. Heck, if they can't read, how do they write at all? {/snark}

Uhm, I'm sorry, but are you including every single author into this blanket statement? Because you know, most writers start off reading, and reading a lot. Some of the professional authors I've met on the 'Net are avid readers; this I know for a fact. Unpublished authors? Dur; the first advice you're given is to read, read, and read some more.

Also, many, many writers are their own worst critics: they'll nitpick their own work to death, and see flaws no one else can quite see, not to mention have occasional attacks of insecurity. Unless you're Anne Rice, who regards her work as too good to have drafts and go through editors.

Blanket, unresearched/uninformed statements -> bad, mmmkay.

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Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.


What...?

Winterfox #235763 04/06/04 09:57 AM
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oi, winterfox, u have to excuse her as her command of english isn't as legendary as yours. hence the prose not as pink as yours either.



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LUCRETIA #235764 04/06/04 10:17 AM
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Critic is usefull IMHO only for the author for improvement. (And not always). Not for the readers. Recomending a book or not = IMHO always, is a big responsibility.


I'm actually kind of embarassed to find this here.

Recommendations and crtic for readers is a difficult sword, because of the individual taste.

One person can be say "this is the best I've ever read !", while the next one is simply bored by the same text. That's difficult.

And yes, a huge part of writing is simply crafting, nothing to do with talent. But talent, skill can enhance things very much.

I write for my self ; and when I put it online, yes, I'd like to have feedback, but not necessarily. Why should I ?
I usually prefer a kind of "hit & run"-technique : Put it online and disappear again, so that I leave the people with my text alone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> And then I need not worry about bad critics as well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" />

If I write for my self, I'm not dependent on what people say; my ego is then rather independent from the critics. I think this is a plus.

What feedback I can always use is how to enhance my writing to make better texts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


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--Dilbert cartoon

"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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