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An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? #52915
11/04/03 01:28 AM
11/04/03 01:28 AM
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Plane of Dead Fish
Luna Offline OP
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This is an old rant of mine. I made it over a year ago on a different forum. I was wondering what the take on this is over here. This is what I wrote then to start the subject :

Quote:

I am reading a trilogy - a good trilogy by the way - and it just frosts my kilt buttons that the good guys always manage to be in the right place, vastly out-numbered and gunned, and yet are able to pull off a victory.

Bah, I say. Bah.

Who decided that they always must win, anyway? Thrawn is great. But, at every turn the goodie-goodies beat him. I wanna see him crush them all, like he should. Big galaxy like that ( yes, this is Star Wars I am talking about ), so how come they just happen to be right there each time? And win using some cheesy spur of the moment thing?

Out gunned and out-numbered, but I am going to tie this rubber band to this stick and shoot out their viewscreen type of things. Bah on goodie-goodies.






So, why do they always win? Why can't we have a CRPG that allows us to be as evil as we want, and if that means killing everyone so be it?


I could have been very happy not knowing that. "Game over, man! Game over!"
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Luna] #52916
11/04/03 04:06 AM
11/04/03 04:06 AM
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sailing around
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i think i would really enjoy that.


Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: faile] #52917
11/04/03 04:11 AM
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stealing the souls of wolves
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-becouse most ppl still want the good guys/girls to win
-becouse games/books/movies/... up to a point are supposed to show that good is better than bad... kinda.



~Setharmon~ >>[halfelven]<<
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Luna] #52918
11/04/03 04:30 AM
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* System Error *
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Oooh.

Good vs. Evil?

I can understand why games are made out so that you must be the 'goodie-goodie' type all the time. They have to end sometime, just like life. Evil is persistent throughout all stages of man, good is only a sporadic afterthought meant to cause disorder.

If you had a choice in the development of the story in a game, how would you end it? Those who make the bad choices always get shafted and those who spend their days cleaning mischievious gnomes from a farmer's yard always get the +10 Platemail of the Gods, as well as the +15 Sword of Unholy Hurting and Bringer of Really Bad Things, so naturally people always choose good because it gets them more experience, phat loot, or some quality time with a prince/princess. *shrug* (I really don't know what I'm talking about right now, so I'll just continue. ) Games like Baldur's Gate don't even really give you a chance to be evil, sure you can kill innocent bystanders for no apparent reason, but is that evil or just plain stupidity? You lose out on things like that, and most people want to experience alot of things in a game before it ends, being evil in a game just gives them an even more narrow path to walk and less things to experience.

Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder. They just don't compute as being seperate entities, like Light & Darkness, Chaos & Order, they each need the other to exist in the first place.

I think I got off topic somewhere back along that lonely, dark trail of thought that was spewed violently from my mind and into text.

*cough* Ahem.... Alright...

Why do goodie-goodies always win? Because that's how the story was written..*ta da* The big mystery is solved! - Maybe if it was written a different way it wouldn't end quite so happily for all involved?

*Note* Yes, yes. I know this entire post was quite shallow, but for some reason I seem to write down odd things just before I pass out into restless slumber and I can't until I write whatever it is down. Please, I beg your forgiveness, I know not what I do!

@Luna. If your interested in a game that has you being doom unto the world I would suggest Blood Omen. It's a pretty old pc (there's also a psx version) game, but it has the theme your speaking about. Or at the very least checking a script of it out here -> Blood Omen Script.
And I wouldn't suggest getting your beliefs in good & bad from Star Wars books , I remember reading a few of those and Thrawn was by far my most favourite villan (only books I ever read with him in it was Heir to the Empire, Dark Forse Rising, and Last Command). Heh, I'm always glad I left the Star Wars fandom before I went in too deep.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Luna] #52919
11/04/03 06:27 AM
11/04/03 06:27 AM
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i don't know if dungeon keeper and dungeon keeper II are considered CRPGs but i don't see why not.

and i want to theorise that throughout history the reason stories are told where the hero always wins is because parents wanted their children to think of good as the better side and want to be good when they grew up.

plus, good trumping evil is a very biblical concept and christianity is pretty widespread.

the whole "shooting out view screens with a rubberband" thing is merely for suspense so that people will think "i know the good guy will win but i wonder how they're gonna do it." this way people will want to finish watching the show, or reading the book.

hm, i wish i had replied this intelligently the last time you posted this instead of taking it personal...

whoops...

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: mickey] #52920
11/04/03 08:52 AM
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I prefer the term "tool" to "m...
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try planescape: torment. You play an undead "hero"; and no-one could really say the "good guy" wins in the end. One of the best RPG's ever, IMO.

Plus, since it is a few years old, you can usually find it for sale cheap.


SPOOOOON!!!
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Sir_Toejam] #52921
11/04/03 02:01 PM
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in fallout you can be a slave trader


jvb, royal dragon prince Cheers!
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: jvb] #52922
11/04/03 02:20 PM
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Belgium
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I think I'm gonna find me a copy of planescape torment, nothing but good comments about it


Viper
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Viper] #52923
11/04/03 02:25 PM
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If you want to be evil and vindictive play soul reaver...you just kill everything great game....

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Sir_Toejam] #52924
11/04/03 07:01 PM
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Luna Offline OP
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Quote:

try planescape: torment. You play an undead "hero"; and no-one could really say the "good guy" wins in the end. One of the best RPG's ever, IMO.

Plus, since it is a few years old, you can usually find it for sale cheap.




I have it already and beat it a year ago, although it is still calling me. Tis a most nifty game, indeed.


To Crimson Knight

I didn't read many of the Star Wars books, but I liked the Thrawn trilogy. And it always got me how the same small group of people could keep beating him.

I heard Morrowind ( which I have but my system absolutly can not stand to run) will let you play evil, too. One girl said she played as a vampire. Sure, she couldn't do most of the quests but she it was great fun running across rooftops and killing people to live.


I could have been very happy not knowing that. "Game over, man! Game over!"
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Luna] #52925
11/04/03 08:09 PM
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1. I wouldn't be interested in a Universe where the Sith Empire (erected by Darth Sidious) would rule, with Luke and Leia dead or dark.

Also, I wouldn't be interested in a Galaxy where Thrawn has won: I couldn't imagine anything interesting from that outcome. Anything that would appeal to me.

2. About Roleplaying:In Roleplaying there are ALWAYS small bands of people experiencing "Adventures" - and thus often saving the world ! It's almost a Tradition.

When - in RPG - a evil character finally wins, the whole band of adventurers would be dead - at least that's what I expect - and the "Adventure" would be over.

A wholly different approach would be to erect a RPG System where *everyone* should be evil, and battling against good ones - exactly the other way round than normally known.


Finally I say that it is simply part of my nature to let the good ones win : I woulödn't want to live in a world controlled by evil ones (remember ! : the Jedi died out ! Luke was the last remaining fragment of this whole group !).



When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
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"Interplayďż˝.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: AlrikFassbauer] #52926
12/04/03 10:49 AM
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The sense of "good always wins over evil" is rather... knocked into most people's head with a sledgehammer. It's a pleasant daydream, nothing more, since in reality good and evil are way harder to define. RPGs, novels, and other forms of entertainment are there fundamentally for escapism. Therefore, most people take it for granted that in fiction, good always wins over evil.

At least, that's my theory.

It's funny how people want more and more realism out of fiction, though. Of course, I'm one of them.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52927
16/04/03 01:20 PM
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Generally speaking, the truly evil people of the world prolly don't plunk their arses down in front of te computer to unwind with a little rpg action or so. If that generalization is correct that puts the majority of the rpg buying populace on the side of the "good guys". Sure we can all take a moment to fleece a store of the goods [how many threads on here pertain to "theft" as a means of improving the character through then selling the purloined goods back to the shop owners themselves, lol try that in Morrowind] but in the process of playing the games we find ourselves on the good side of the law and again in most if not all instances the underdog from beginning to end. If evil were to win then it would be a bit demoralizing to say the least.

Basically I presume the truly evil to be out doing evil rather then racking up orc kills. Thus it's marketing to the target audience in a simplified way of thinking.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Daas] #52928
18/04/03 08:04 AM
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Somewhere between Here, ..and ...
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nice views and theories by all, good......and evil reading, i rate these pages, 2


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Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Daas] #52929
18/04/03 02:43 PM
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Quote:

Sure we can all take a moment to fleece a store of the goods [how many threads on here pertain to "theft" as a means of improving the character through then selling the purloined goods back to the shop owners themselves, lol try that in Morrowind]




that's very bad roleplaying =)

i used to do that back in BG1 when i didn't care about roleplaying but for the most part, i have tried to actually roleplay my character.

of course right now i am a thief so it's perfectly acceptable to steal from people =)

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Daas] #52930
19/04/03 10:54 AM
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Quote:

Generally speaking, the truly evil people of the world prolly don't plunk their arses down in front of te computer to unwind with a little rpg action or so.




I hope you aren't one of those people who cried foul when they read, in a certain Underdark novel, that dark elves dance, sing, and fish. And grow cattle. The cries were something along this line -- "Drow plot, murder, torture, in-fight and have wild sinful sex 24/7!"

Folk, evil people have to find entertainment somewhere, too.

Just because you are evil doesn't mean you have to be plotting world domination all day/night long. Realistic villains could be anything from art connoisseur, rare book dealer, to, well, a CRPG nerd.

Quote:

If evil were to win then it would be a bit demoralizing to say the least.




It's interesting to note that many evil overlords intend to "rule wisely and make the land unassailable" rather than "rule with iron-clad fists and tyranny". Heh.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52931
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It isn't a question of "Good" winning over "Evil". The best stories (i.e., the ones that make you want to buy the next book from the same author) are ones that have three essential elements:
  1. the reader must feel empathy for the protagonist, the hero,
  2. the protagonist must face unreasonable challenges, and
  3. the protagonist must either: (a)win and survive, or (b)win and die, and a new hero arises
People of western civilizations and cultures call protagonists "good" and antagonists "evil". Eastern traditions, on the other hand, describe the struggle as "restoring balance". Both are merely labels, and have very little to do with any absolute universal Truth. People like the stories that fulfill an emotional need -- often described as "feeling good" -- again, twisting the meaining of "good" to describe something more basic: "sated."

I read stories to enjoy the adventure and to second-guess the author's decisions about how to unfold the plot, play-out particular scenarios, or create images and experiences in their readers' minds. I buy the author's next book if the story resonates with my personal sense of reality.


-- BG
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: Winterfox] #52932
19/04/03 03:27 PM
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well, considering the evil overlords we've had in the real world like hitler and stalin and various others, it's hard to believe they wouldn't rule with an iron fist and would actually be a fair and just ruler.

i mean, generally speaking evil people don't look out for the welfare of others. that's pretty much a character trait of a good guy.

Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: mickey] #52933
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Quote:

well, considering the evil overlords we've had in the real world like hitler and stalin and various others, it's hard to believe they wouldn't rule with an iron fist and would actually be a fair and just ruler.

i mean, generally speaking evil people don't look out for the welfare of others. that's pretty much a character trait of a good guy.




I agree, if the evil character is a powerless peon like the rest of us mortals. However, no despot can rule (or stay alive) for long without creating allies and endearing himself to a group of sycophants. That requires "people skills", and the ability to see other peoples' needs and desires as worthy of your attention.

Even if a person is purely evil, that person cannot perform heroic deeds, lead others, or achieve greatness without being a "fair and just ruler" over the cadre of ministers, warriors, and disciples. The subjugated masses don't qualify for these amenities, but that (in the mind of the evil leader) is the price that must be paid for the inner circle to live happily.

So the question in the mind of the evil ruler is "Whose welfare is most important? Mine? My inner circle's? My subjugated masses'?" And the question is NOT that the evil ruler doesn't look out for the welfare of others.

Compare the character trait to a "good guy" leader, and I suggest that the "good guy" recognizes that the welfare of a larger or particularly oppressed group is important. Or, more often, that disenfranchisement of any group must be tempered with wisdom and charity.

Or, put another way, how many religions market themselves based on the premise that another group/religion is evil? "Reject them and their ways, and you will be a righteous member of the only True Faith."

Intolerance and exclusiveness, be it religious, political, or otherwise, is a tool for gathering an inner circle to a leader. Tolerance and inclusiveness create communities that tend to be suspicious of leaders' motives, but accept them as long as popular opinion and traditions are not greatly offended. That's why it is so difficult to find a truly benevolent despot, or a popular hero who wants to be a leader. Would Hitler have survived for very long without an enemy to oppress? Would you want to be the Pope? Would a Saint want to be the Secretary General of the United Nations?


-- BG
Re: An old rant : Why do Goodie-goodies always win? [Re: BeeGee] #52934
19/04/03 08:46 PM
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yes, an evil overlord would have to do things to keep the mass public happy, but genereally they do the bare minimum and even then, they aren't doing it to be nice. their motives are still purely selfish.

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