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- D:OS2 ModdingTool - Discussions/Suggestions #569451
24/09/15 06:22 PM
24/09/15 06:22 PM
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norD Offline OP
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Hello people, especially modders.
As you may know, the next stretch goal of the kickstarter in "Full mod support".
There is something less than 25k to go so I'm pretty confident about us reaching it.

The point of this topic is to gather data on what you, modders, want to have for the brand new Divinity Engine that we will release with DOS2.

There are a lot of data here and there but it could be great to have everything in the same topic. It'll be easier for us at Larian to see what we can do and prioritize. We have already ideas on what we want to tweak from the tool we are now using but at some point, we will, like I've said in the AMA, ask you, people of the community, what you want to have.

So? What's up?

PS: Bring modders who are posting on DOS1 forum on this topic too! Thanks.

-- SUGGESTIONS/IDEAS --
-- EDITOR --


- Drop-in friendly
- Include generic version of systems used
- Multi-mod support
- Unlocked main campaign
- Fix Reload stats
- Make cheat commands works
- Undo on terrain manipulation
- Terrain prefabs
- Standalone mod template that contains the important scripts and everything set up for modding
- Edit and add talents
- Custom loot drops
- Crafting recipes
- Crafting abilities/skills
- Don't rely on 3rd party for packing and unpacking
- More Flexible Atmosphere Control
- Visual Effects Editor
- Script Debugging
- 3dsmax export/import
- Example max rigged meshes
- Mod load orders
- Standard format for textures
- More friendly quest editor
- Hotkeys
- Better Wall Editor
- Models/textures viewer inside editor
- Allow users to save and load how they set up their editor windows
- Remember the last position of all the windows
- Respawn timer's on encounters
- Source files (.lsm) available for materials
- More prefabs
- Easy to manipulate stats
- Support open file formats
- Ability to increase party size
- Ability to create a custom UI
- Custom Races/Classes at Character Creation
- Global and local music
- Import character face pictures
- Increase the limit of mods the game can run
- Easy and clear triggers
- Easy to use subroutines
- Reset the level so you can try things over and over again
- Terrain resize
- Ability to merge source files
- Plugin support

-- OTHER --
- Video and text tutorials
- Editor wiki
- Modding contest with prizes
- Youtube serie
- Mods website (Nexus?)
- Release the mod tools along with the alpha/beta versions of the game
- Online database of assets

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569454
24/09/15 07:07 PM
24/09/15 07:07 PM
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SniperHF Offline

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I've got a rather long list of stuff I'll send your way later.

But the #1 most important thing I would say is the editor should be as drop-in friendly as possible.

Include a generic version of all (or the most practical) systems used in the game.

That way when someone downloads the editor, their mod is ready to go even if it's just three characters thrown on an empty map. In the D:OS 1 version, having to add stuff to the _Start goal, alignments files, and things like that are a huge roadblock for a lot of people. Especially if someone wants to use some of the commonly used gameplay aspects of D:OS like waypoints, attitude, shovels, mining, etc. Just getting those to work right now involves either rewriting the script from scratch or extracting and cleaning up the MAIN files.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569455
24/09/15 07:10 PM
24/09/15 07:10 PM
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Simple multi-mod support where people can activate multiple mods that affect the main campaign at once, instead of requiring people to merge mods.

Unlocked main campaign that isn't blocked by developer rights. You can't edit existing quests or creatures in D:OS except by editing their stats.

Fix "Reload stats," and make the "cheat" commands work.

For the love of muffins please make undo work for terrain manipulation. Also, a bigger change, but being able to select terrain and copy and paste it or move it somehow would be awesome, though I could see that being difficult. And if that's possible, then "terrain prefabs" would be really useful. Like, you could plop down a meadow with grass and flower meshes and good looking dirt and grass textures. More prefabs in general always help speed up level design.

Standalone mod template that contains the important scripts and everything set up for modding.

Let us edit and add talents. And an in-editor way to edit character or item stats would be cool. More freedom on the kind of stats that can be tied to items would be nice. And the ability to add new item types (I wanted to add an item type above legendary, but couldn't figure it out. Seemed possible, but just wasn't able to get it.)


Do you just want ideas for the engine itself, or for how Larian could help the community in general? Thoughts on the latter (I can delete these if you want this just for the engine.)

Both video and text tutorials. And for longer videos, marking the times for when you talk about specific things can be useful for referencing later. Also, filling an editor wiki with detailed information could be really useful.

I think doing a modding contest with prizes would be a great way to motivate people. You could have a contest for standalone mods, and one for best mod for the main campaign (maybe best added quest? And/or a best gameplay mod.)

One final thought: I think the most accepted spelling of "one who mods" is "modder." Just putting that out there :P Thanks a bunch norD!

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: Baardvark] #569456
24/09/15 07:27 PM
24/09/15 07:27 PM
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norD Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Baardvark
For the love of muffins please make undo work for terrain manipulation.

First thing I've asked when I got hired, haha

Originally Posted By: Baardvark
Do you just want ideas for the engine itself, or for how Larian could help the community in general?

I want everything

Originally Posted By: Baardvark

One final thought: I think the most accepted spelling of "one who mods" is "modder." Just putting that out there :P
Thanks! I'll fix.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569457
24/09/15 08:04 PM
24/09/15 08:04 PM
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I think a great example of a good tool set is Blizzards Galaxy Map Editor.
It includes both logical scripting as well as the ability to import custom script code.

As for dealing with Dialogs - a good place to look is Shadow Runs Dialog Tree creation structure. Where it easily allows you to decide the variables on what Dialog to present as well as what options to show based on the requirements which need to be filled by the stats.

Being able to mix the best qualities of these two tool sets would create an incredibly powerful tool for users who are both new content creation as well as professionals who can create wonders with it.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569458
24/09/15 08:17 PM
24/09/15 08:17 PM
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Please make it possible to make custom loot drops, such as weapons/armors/item and the creation for new and creative crafting recipes along with the the ability to create some new cool abilities/skills that may alter ones play through with a mod

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: Baardvark] #569459
24/09/15 08:38 PM
24/09/15 08:38 PM
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Windemere Offline

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+1 to the following:

Originally Posted By: SniperHF
But the #1 most important thing I would say is the editor should be as drop-in friendly as possible.

Include a generic version of all (or the most practical) systems used in the game.


Originally Posted By: Baardvark
Simple multi-mod support where people can activate multiple mods that affect the main campaign at once, instead of requiring people to merge mods.


Originally Posted By: Baardvark
For the love of muffins please make undo work for terrain manipulation.


Originally Posted By: Baardvark
Let us edit and add talents. And an in-editor way to edit character or item stats would be cool. More freedom on the kind of stats that can be tied to items would be nice. And the ability to add new item types


Provide us all the tools we need
It's odd that we were reliant on Norbyte's packing and unpacking tool just to be able to get off the ground with modding. These things should be built into the editor or released with it.

More Flexible Atmosphere Control

It seems a number of us have been interested in having day/night cycles. There are some things you could do to make it a LOT easier for us. Please give us a way to "kick" the atmosphere trigger after we change its setting so that we don't have to do unholy source magic to make the camera move, or be forced to delay the transition until a character moves, etc. Right now, if you change the atmosphere value for a trigger, it doesn't being to visually update until the camera moves.

I also think it would be terrific if a level could be associated with a series of atmospheres without using atmosphere triggers. In this case, the entire level could be told to transition to a new atmosphere and individual atmosphere triggers could still be used if you want to override an atmosphere in a particular zone.

Visual Effects Editor

It looks like there is a missing plugin for creating/previewing visual effects. Why did we never get this? I'm not talking about the material editor, rather the mushroom cloud that unfortunately really blows up with pressing it. smile

Script Debugging

It would be awsesome to have a more fully functional IDE for Osiris (breakpoints, code indexing and cross-referencing, etc). For starters, it would be helpful to improve debug logging to be able to pass in formatted arguments so we can log values of variables and such to a file for debugging.

Last edited by Windemere; 24/09/15 08:40 PM.

DOS2 Mods: Happily Emmie After and The Noisy Crypt

Steam Workshop
Nexus Mods
Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569463
24/09/15 09:37 PM
24/09/15 09:37 PM
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Ok I'll admit I never really tried DOS1 editor, but one thing I'm curious about is import and export of assets. Was it a thing in DOS1?
If not, having a way to both import and export, say, a character and either all his animations or a specific set of animations would go a long way toward being able to customize said animations, add different body types, character models, etc... Or even make machinimas for potential cutscenes/trailers.
FBX would then be the most obvious format.

This is not strictly speaking an editor feature but more of a tool that could help people produce great things smile


The Brotherhood of norD is love, the Brotherhood of norD is life.
Click to reveal..
Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569466
25/09/15 12:56 AM
25/09/15 12:56 AM
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What I want to see? ;P

Don't use *rad game tools GR2 binary format* give us the actual 3dsmax export/import scripts and example max rigged mesh for character, weapons and monsters, and allow load orders (aka, mods load one after another, latest changes are overwritten to create merged end-result.. Result= more than 1 *mod* (not campaign) usable). Use FBX or actually accepted standard formats. Don't reverse the darn channel orders in your dds TEXTURES (especially in normal maps), the standard format is *RGBA* <3

Ask yourself this.
How much skill is needed to *add 1 new weapon* that properly drops as loot in the loot tables, can be used by a character and has proper stats and effects.

How much skill is needed to add a new monster with new animation/mesh/AI/Sound

And try to fix these modding problems with ease of use features and *proper templates* (templates meaning, source MAX files so that we can see rigging and grouping and everything else that needs to be done to add a new creature into D:OS). As long as modders can not create new monsters, or re-add them from their Skyrim mods, activity is likely going to be near zero.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569467
25/09/15 02:20 AM
25/09/15 02:20 AM
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The quest editor/creator needs to be friendly, similar to how you guys say you've redone the dialogue editor. If someone wants to set up a 'pick up apple' fetch quest, that shouldn't take hours of time to do with lots of excessive writing that doesn't even have to do with the dialogue.

I'd like the ability to import 3D models into the game engine to be straightforward with a lot of documentation to help new model builders and their efforts to bring their own creations to the engine (this means defining what 'weight' means, the proper way that models should be rigged, how animations are defined, and etc.)

What would be cool (not required, but an idea) is to have an internal scripting interface that modders can interact with and be able to create their own tools (and share them; i.e. custom wizards) and automate tasks (re. click on a custom button on the toolbar and it does something).

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569468
25/09/15 06:47 AM
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1. Hotkey's! Hotkey's in a program make everything easy and allow you to work fast, like changing from moving terrain up to moving terrain down with 1 keyboard press makes life so much easier. Also make a hotkey layout!

2. Wall and house thing is pretty buggy right now, probably already fixed. (Once had to delete the entire file that stored the buildings to save my map and redo all buildings)

3. Ask users if they are sure the want to delete the terrain. (Or make undo work on it) You can't Ctrl+Z it and if you forgot to save things before you are forced to just exit without saving.

4. For tools that do the same like the terrain edit tools (raising, flatting, lowering, smoothing) make the right click options in 1 screen that just changes when you select another tool. Also replace the numbers with sliders (would be awsome)

6. Not sure if you can do it now somehow, but if you paint like grass or rocks in the instance painter I would really like to edit them separately after they have been placed.

7. View models/textures... inside the editor!

8. Allow users to save and load how they set up their editor windows. Also remember the last position of all the windows.

9. Allow editing of spells, items,... inside the editor.

10. And off course an entire youtube serie where you show how you did make like the first hour of the orginal game from start.

Will probably come up with some more later, will post them here.

Last edited by Grompie; 25/09/15 06:52 AM.
Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569485
25/09/15 01:38 PM
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Dear NorD

May we please have an easier to use editor? as everyone suggests above those are all great ideas. Think of it from a basic gamer standpoint someone with zero knowledge of game design. Make a tool with easy to use drag and drop. Also a user friendly map builder.

Would love the editing of spells (or creation of new ones!) and items within the editor. Also an easy to use NPC maker where you can chose if they are a basic NPC, A merchant, A companion type or Enemy.

May we pretty please have an option within the editor for our own games to set respawn timer's on encounters? I know quite a few are against any sort of respawning. but I don't think it will hurt anyone if it's an option.

Thank you.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569488
25/09/15 01:52 PM
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norD Offline OP
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Super cool people, thanks for all these comments.
I read everything and will talk about all the stuff here with the right person when the time will come for sure. Don't hesitate to add stuff.

Quote:

May we please have an easier to use editor?

This is goal #1 yes.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569501
25/09/15 04:53 PM
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It'd also be nice to have the source files (.lsm) available for the materials.
Only the compiled GLSL/HLSL code is in the DOS packages, so you have to reverse-engineer how the builtin ones work.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569511
25/09/15 07:16 PM
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Funny, I was thinking about this earlier today, but wasn't sure how to share my ideas.

I suggest getting a copy of NWN 1 and 2 and poking around in those toolsets. Check out the features and how they work. Check out to property editor and the scripting. I don't want nor expect some perfect 1:1 copy of the Aurora/Electron tools. Instead I'd like you to take inspiration from those editors and really cater to the modding community of that game. There is incredible talent in that community and if you entice them with your engine you can have something huge on your hands.

The original Divinity editor had a lot of potential in that regard, but it felt limited. I'm glad you've fixed things up and added some features. You're almost there, just need more freedom and ease of use in your editor. Documentation is always great, but wizards (not the magical kind), prefabs, and easily accessible properties settings on entities really go long way at getting amateurs interested.

Pretty much, you want a new user to be able to make a simple, basic mod with a few clicks. Meanwhile, you have some advanced ways for an experienced user to have complete control of the module.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569528
26/09/15 03:47 AM
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1. Tutorials and easy setup.
2. Have the main game editable. Add assets, quests, items easily.
3. Be able to make own maps.
4. Easy to manipulate stats and other gameplay tweaks.
5. Whoever is host, custom files are sent automatically to those that join that host for that session. No fuss to muss.
6. Workshop.

A good editing tool will have mods available to download day one, see that other leading game. Small tweaks sure, but those are great tweaks to enhance gameplay. Firm believer that modding results have to happen quickly to build modding momentum in the community. Total conversations are longshots, in the meantime small hitters to add to the games start-up list will be more common to be finished and use by the players.

Example of mods:
1. Combat Speed mod.
2. Move Speed mod.
3. Harder Sneaking mod.
4. Higher difficulty mod.
5. Treasure Hunt mod.
6. New Evil Tower mod with quest line.
7. Homestead mod.
8. New Skin mods.
9. New Item mods.
10. Better Crafting mods.
11. Enhanced Inventory mod.
12. Enhanced Skill Bar mod.
13. Higher Rez Mod.
14. Nude Mod.
15. Add Rocket launchers mod.

To me the blueprint is out there and that is how it goes and every so often you'll get a Total Conversion mod. Everybody ahead of release dreams of the great american mod, I'm going to do one etc... And most never happen and the ones that do take a lot of time, most players are looong gone. So I aim lower with modding actual main game with quick hitters. We can pick and choose from a list of those to enhance the game.

Last edited by Horrorscope; 26/09/15 03:51 AM.
Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: Horrorscope] #569532
26/09/15 07:13 AM
26/09/15 07:13 AM
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SniperHF Offline

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Originally Posted By: Horrorscope
in the meantime small hitters to add to the games start-up list will be more common to be finished and use by the players.


Yep, absolutely critical to building momentum.

For DO:S 1 the lack of ability to easily change MAIN and the lack of ability import certain types of visuals neutered any potential.

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569536
26/09/15 01:47 PM
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Well I can't say I'm too much into userfriendlyness, but mere power. But I have nothing against it ofc. ^^
But, as said, more important for me is WHAT the tools are capable of.

So within conjunction this means as few hardcoded and as much modifiably stuff as possible, please!

Just an example that instantly crosses my mind...

- attributes/talents/skills... let us set hand on all the aspects... including their number, effects, names...
(Many people wanted to touch aspects like the cooldown reduction INT offered or add something similar to the other attributes. Let it happen!)


Also let scripting be open, don't just limit it to presets. And if feasible support open file formats like *.OBJ.

Last edited by Seelenernter; 26/09/15 02:16 PM.

Think for yourself! Or others will do it...
Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: norD] #569537
26/09/15 01:51 PM
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Hey there! Just backed the game. Admittedly was waiting until mod support was near-guaranteed... it's the one thing I most excited about for D:OS2, even though it's an amazing game in and of itself.

D:OS' editor kept me from heavily modding the game. Part of it was when I came... only a few months back did I start opening up the editor, and found its "out of box" functionality wasn't friendly. I decided to focus on some other games because of it. Very glad to hear the #1 priority is this usability. While some in the thread have stated how easy it should be, I'm not sure I'm in agreement. It should be friendly, but I don't want the ability to create complex stories and systems stifled by something 'easy-to-use.' There's a balance, and I believe you'll walk it well smile

That aside, I'll make a few suggestions based on some 'dream' mods I might want to create:

DM Mode

With only 3 days left on the clock, I don't think we'll hit 2 mil. I could be surprised. But, short of that, I'd love to be able to reproduce a DM-type mode using the Editor. This might be asking much, for a feature that was a tier in the KS... but I did say I was dreaming. wink

For this to work, a few things would need to be exposed to the Editor:

1) Fine scripting system.

Using a set of scripts, we could generate a 'character' that is able to control more than the typical. Would probably add this as an additional 'Race' in character creation, and limit it so only one player could occupy that race at a time. Clearly would not be as smooth an experience as a Larian-developed DM mode, but could replicate a lot of the functionality.

2) Ability to increase party size.

This is going to be requested a lot, because people want persistant universe. I agree, I'd love that - and it'd be a great business move given the lack of anything filling that niche (short of, perhaps, Shards).

But for a "DM Mode," it would be ideal to add a single additional character to the party - a total of 5 - to allow the DM to occupy an additional slot rather than take away a player's slot.

3) Ability to create a custom UI

While the DM's abilities could be created as additional SKILLS in their own custom skill tree, it would be far better to create an interface which allows them to plop down creatures, immediately invoke script functions (or even write them?) and create levels on-the-fly. This latter ability I'm not even going to list, as that's asking for a lot. But, dreaming!


Star Wars TC

Everyone loves Star Wars! D:OS2 will have many systems already in place to allow an 'easy' (hah) total conversion. A few editor abilities here would go a long way:

1) Custom Races/Classes at Character Creation

In NWN/2, it was possible to create custom races and classes but required a lot of scripting workarounds. It'd be GREAT to implement new races and classes with full skill trees and effects right inside the editor.

For this, I'm talking DATA and not ART. For Art...

2) Simple import/export of character models

If I want to create a Wookiee to-size, it'd be better to import this model and allow its creation at the character creation menu than fake it with scripting. This means we should either be able to import directly from 3DSMax, or the Editor comes with a built-in or easily-accessible converter.

If you don't want us EXPORTING your assets, you could use a unique file format for your game assets, but a separate filetype that is compatible with the converter for imported assets.

3) Full editor manipulation of item data and art

This is more of a given - most mods are going to want this. But figured I'd note it

4) Global and local music

It'd be great for this feature to be taken care of with a drop-down in the editor, rather than placing a script function in the level. It should still be possible, however, to create a script override function for sudden, forced music changes. These should automatically revert on leaving a level, though, or after a certain period of time.

------

I'll stop here for now smile Hope this is helpful!

Re: Modders, come here, we need to talk. [Re: HolmstN] #569546
27/09/15 12:07 AM
27/09/15 12:07 AM
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I am no modder but I just wanted to post this as reminder.
Way back at the DOS1 KS Swen mentioned something I just want to refresh once more.
As they showed the power of the DOS1 editors they used, they recreated the starting village of the very first Larian game Divine Divinity with the whole dungeon below the village.

He said they do NOT plan to make any remake but that they would support fans if they would like to work on such a monumental task as DOS1 and DD used basically the same scripts (as hard that is to believe after that many years to me but I am no coder.).

Who knows? Maybe Larian might be interested to support a fan based project, similar to the 'Black Mesa' fan remake from Valve for an anniversary edition of DD one day.

Swen said they could supply such a project with the scripts from DD and I am sure they could help a bit with their expertise in project management.
At least that would be a chance for Larian not to make excellent games but also 'pollinate' the indie industry with some additional fresh blood who could work as supportive team for Larian or aid even other small studios with their expertise down the road.

Larian could even profit from it with some future add-ons to their staff when the project ever gets wrapped up and/or could create some co-subsidiary or affiliate department for the future.

Just some thoughts in case there are still people which would be interested in such a mega project.


Ideals are like stars. We might never reach them. But we can set our course by them.
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