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The presets are there to serve as sort of examples of what character builds you can make.

But they are also affecting any changes to the origin character builds we can choose at the start of the game.

Because current presets are mostly bad builds or underwhelming and uninspired quick builds, they present the game systems in a relatively bad light and affect origin builds badly.

It may be that the devs just made some quick builds so the alpha can go into testing and just didnt bother to make them the best they can be. And im sure they can do that easily.


These are my examples of how i would make the default, starting builds.

The purpose of these presets is to:

- Present the possible builds, different skills, ability options and talents to the players in much more diverse way so they can more easily see how many options is there.

- To be more imaginative with specific builds general lore style expectations and to present them in more original forms instead of being mostly the same.

- To be much better starting choices by themselves.

- To make any optional presets we can choose for the Origin characters once we find them in Fort Joy area much less broken, bad or unimaginative.

- I am presuming that only one Talent is race specific and so unchangeable and that we would have the opportunity to choose two talents more at the character creation.

(None of these builds have constitution chosen since that attribute is completely worthless now and may as well not be in the game at all.)


The redesigned preset builds:


Witch - Finesse, Int, Mem
Necro, Summoning, Bartering,
Conjure Incarnate, Mosquito swarm, Decaying touch
racial talent - Leech, Savage Sortilege


Wizard - Int +2, Mem +1
Pyromancer, Aerothurge, Loremaster,
Shocking touch, Haste, Electric discharge
racial talent - Elemental affinity, Savage Sortilege


Battlemage - Str, Int, Mem
Warfare, Aerothurge, Telekinesis,
Shocking touch, Critical strike, Blinding radiance
racial telent - Parry master, Comeback Kid


Inquisitor - Str, Int, Mem
Pyromancer, Necro, Telekinesis
Searing daggers, Ignition, Raining blood
racial talent - Leech, What a Rush


Cleric - Int, Str, Wits
Geomancer, Hydrosphist, Loremaster,
Armour of Frost, Restoration, Fortify
racial talent - Picture of health, Elemental affinity


Ranger - Finesse +2 Wits +1
Hunstman +2 Sneaking +1,
Mark, Marksman Fang, Aid
racial talent - Arrow recovery, Pet pal


Wayfarer - Fin, Int, Mem
Geomancer, Huntsman , Bartering,
Ricochet, Poison dart, Fossil strike
racial talent - Elemental ranger, Far out Man


Fighter - Str, Fin, Wits
Warfare, Huntsman, Lucky charm,
Battlestomp, Mark, Enrage
racial talent - Opportunist, Walk it off


Knight - Str, Mem, Wits
Warfare, Two handed, Persuasion,
Critical strike, Battering ram, Battlestomp
racial talent - Executioner, Hothead


Rogue - Fin +2, Wits, (this one is changed the least)
Scoundrel, Dual Wielding, Thievery,
Backlash, Throwing knife, Adrenaline
racial talent - Back-stabber, Parry master


Shadowblade, - Fin, Int, Mem,
Scoundrel, Necro, Sneaking,
Throwing knife, Raining blood, Decaying touch,
racial talent - What a rush, Guerrilla


Enchanter - Int, Mem +2
Hydrosophist, Aerothurge, Lucky Charm,
Hail strike, Blinding radiance, Restoration,
racial talent - Pet pal, Mnemonic



Feedback and opinions welcome.

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I and Draco359 agree that most of the presets need a change. I wouldn't mind being able to pick 2 Talents at start, but I really doubt Larian will change that - I have severe doubts that they will even fix the unbalance between the awesome elf talents and all other racials - so I will presume that only one will be choosable.

Of the two Talents you have chosen, is the first one always the "must-have"? If not, could you underline the "must-have" for that preset?


I don't agree with your choice to remove CON from all presets. I don't think it's as useless as most people say. Armor gets depleted and health damage gets taken. I'm not sure what the difference is in playstyle to make some people apparently have hundreds of points of armor in fort joy before level 4 and thus never be at risk of taking health damage, but that has not been my experience at all. I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on Memory - 8 out of 12 builds with at least one point of Mem? 0/12 with a point into CON?

Personally, I would avoid Ignition and Contamination on all presets, but if it were up to me, they would be entirely out of the game.


More specific feedback on individual presets:
- Witch looks good.
- I guess you switched Wizard from "Earth + Fire = explosions" to a type focused on raw damage to magic armor. A reasonable way to go.
- Not sure why you're giving Inquisitor STR when it has no Warfare and starts with a staff.
- Picture of Health is useless on the Cleric because that is based on Warfare, which the Cleric lacks.
- Fighter is the defensive melee character, it starts with sword & shield, and why it had Fortify. Pure offensive stuff like Mark and Rage don't match the defensive loadout.

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Mostly agree with Stabbey's feedback. CON is definitely subpar (I did buff it in my mod a hair), but not completely worthless. A point in memory is pretty much always useful though.

I'm not sure what you mean by racial talent in terms of the class presets. I'm not sure if you can lock talents for presets. I believe the race presets could have one talent removed, though I don't know if that's necessary. I'd rather the game just be a hair harder to compensate for starting with an extra talent.

Otherwise this should be all easy to implement.

Last edited by Baardvark; 05/06/17 04:29 PM.
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Well, i still have some fate that Larian will improve and change different things. Even if not, modders will.

Im presuming only one of the starting talents everyone has is a racial one, like spellsong for lizards. And that those who give +2 in a specific attribute are not. But even if they are, it doesnt matter much.

For these presets, im not sure if i would make these new talents locked or not, but lets say they are selected but changeable. The custom build would certainly be able to change everything.

Only Origin builds would have talents locked and you get only one to choose as it is right now. (i would make separate presets for the origins, if thats possible)

As for Con, ive just played a whole alpha without putting a single point in it for any character, and they were all hybrids and most triple hybrids. For example I made Sebille into rogue-fighter-necromancer who got duel wielding and used daggers and swords, so finesse and strength both.

I never felt any problem whatsoever by missing on Con.
Prince had a few points in it from some Gear and since such equipment is common i dont need to waste a single point on it in character creation. At the end of the alpha you can check and see that large majority of vitality is given by leveling up, not by Con.

Therefore - it is completely pointless to spend any points on it.


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Personally, I would avoid Ignition and Contamination on all presets, but if it were up to me, they would be entirely out of the game.


I agree that those are the worst skills we have at the start.
But i picked ignition because there is so little choices in character creation and i wanted the presets to look different at fist sight.

Which is why Inquisitor is changed into a more of a wizardly type, instead of a fighter-necromancer. He does have one point in Strength to point out that he can use other weapons or get a point in warfare at first level up.
While chosen skills and talents make that preset more of a sadistic looking type of character, as it would be generally expected. The starting weapon type should be changed into one based on Str. An axe or a mace probably.


Wizard is turned into a elemental spell casting powerhouse instead, i only gave him haste as a starting choice because Inquisitor had searing daggers and other builds took other offensive Pyro spells. Of course players can change these starting spells if they want.


Picture of health should not be tied to warfare, but be free to choose. Cleric is now more of a magic support class too, instead of fighter-mage as is usual.
And can be combined with any pyromancer in the team for explosions.


Fighter is now more of a fighter. Not a fighter - wizard.
A fighter should not have magic abilities. And to me the term means offensive, not defensive capabilities.
He can get defense from other characters in the team.
In fact making it like this would increase the need for such cooperation.

So, its an offensive hybrid build capable of melee and ranged combat, i.e - fighting - that requires Strength and Finesse. But of course the players can choose to focus on one side more or add some other ability later on.

This would be Ifans starting default preset.

A Knight would be Red Prince default one, although i think he should have a unique default build, with a point in Pyromancy and slightly different talents.
He would also get the "Clear Mind" pyro spell so thats why that isnt in any of the presets above.


I would also add a few more presets, like Pyro-fighter, and Aerothurge-Rogue, for example.


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Presets in basically every game since the beginning of time are almost all sub optimal. There are a lot of things that need attending to in the game and this particular "problem" is very near the bottom of what I hope they spend their time doing... Not that it's a waste of time, just that they have much bigger fish to fry, so to speak.


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Its not like it takes a lot of work to do. It would take a dev not more then an hour at worst to just change some basic values and numbers in presets text files.

Its not like this changes any mechanics or anything complicated.

If nothing else this list can serve as example of better presets. I dont see anyone complaining these are bad builds. Some specific details can be changed more or less. Like Enchanter getting a Far out Man instead of Pet pal, but i put that there only so Lohse can have it by default.

Maybe there could be a few more fighter presets, like Soldier, Marine, maybe Commando or something similar, which would be pure melee, but with a point in some weapon ability and in one defense skill.
Just to have such examples visible.

These defense skills certainly need some improvements and additional effects to be valuable.

And it certainly doesnt seem like getting more choices about talents at character creation would break anything.



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You're right in that it wouldn't take much effort to make the builds better, but the system is subject to change going forward so even still it would be better to wait until near launch to swing through these reworks.


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Since its not much work any future changes will be easily adjustable.

Soldier - Str, Wits +2
Single handed, Perseverance, Bartering
racial talent - Hotheaded, Opportunist,

edit: fuck it, it was too much cliche.


The problem here is that you cannot choose warfare, one weapon and one defense skill at the very start.
- Bartering instead of Lucky charm, which would be better fit for a fighter - kind of. Soldiers arent lucky by default.

Maybe that can be solved or at least sidestepped if civil and defense skills would be put together.

Then again we get to the next level quickly so... i guess.


Last edited by Hiver; 06/06/17 11:33 AM.
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"Necro, Summoning"

Not a good combination.

Necromancy currently ONLY works with frontline fighters.

Unless something changes in Necromancy, there is no saving the Witch Preset.

Last edited by Neonivek; 06/06/17 06:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by Neonivek
"Necro, Summoning"

Not a good combination.

Necromancy currently ONLY works with frontline fighters.

Unless something changes in Necromancy, there is no saving the Witch Preset.

Pretty sure necromancy works just fine with artillery characters. It healed me when I used my spells at least, when I had it. Like Hail Strike would heal me. The only thing that doesn't heal you for necromancy form direct damage is DOT from the elements.

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Its not supposed to be the best ever uber build.
Its supposed to be diverse. And at least a little bit original or unique.

I think it should be workable, due to the summons taking the brunt of attacks or most offense.
And after all, we are playing in a party so its also supposed to synergize with other builds.


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Recently I started working on a review series on how each preset affects each diferent companion to highlight key weaknesses within each separate preset. I have recently discovered that presets that are bad for some races are actualy ok for others and rarely on the main role they are supposed to play - fighter feels like a cleric type build for all intent and purposes for lizzard and dwarf,which I find hilarious,seeing that fighters were supposed to be tanks.

My goal is this,if in my reviews I can prove that there is 1 preset that is bad for more than two companions, I will highlight these findings,put them on a separate post and have Larian look at them.

So far in my research I have discovered that as it stands the Fighter preset is only viable for the Red Prince as a defense orientated Inquisitor/Cleric and is a mediocreish pick for Beast (the dwarf companion - I am using custom dwarfs to test all presets) but are horrible choices for human companions and elfs.

Another fun factor is the Conjurer preset which gives the dwarf companion some beastly starting stats for a front line fighter with a terrible talent choice and no skills that are usefull for a front line fighter at least until past level 2 when you get charge, then the Conjurer preset works like a battlemage specialized in summoning magic. Unfortunetly for the other companions Conjurer remains a bad choice.

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Ive seen that post, seems like a lot of effort. Hope it works out for you.

Im approaching this from a bit different angle and trying to come up with presets that would seem interesting, diverse and fitting for the "role". I havent thought to change conjurer and polymorph since i figured they seemed ok as specialized single builds and i havent played them at all, except adding some polymorph to a Rogue and to Ifan as Ranger, which plays well.

It just seemed right to add summoning to the Witch build. So its not just another ordinary wizard.
And i really dislike fighter with geomancy - being called a fighter.

Im not much of a min-maxer since i find all that detailed calculating boring.
I like to have a sort of good flow and even some challenge in how to use different abilities and stats.

What i would like to achieve with these presets is have players find them interesting and functional enough to play (only more on imaginative side then OP builds), but to also make them think: "Hey, if i take this skill or a talent from this preset and combine it with this other one..."

And also to avoid making origin characters into something i dont want.
Because when i say to Ifan he should be a fighter i dont want a fighter-geomancer.
or Ranger - being a similar hybrid, only with pyro skills, but not a Ranger, while Red Prince who needs a point in pyromancy - ALSO HAS Geomancy. etc.

And then the wizard ALSO has geomancy. Witch - guess what? Geomancy.

If there should be a mellee defensive build - then shield training should be a separate skill! Like it was in the previous game. Instead of having geomancy slapped onto everything.

The presets should be inspirational examples, but it doesnt hurt if they are also interesting builds too.


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Originally Posted by Hiver

Witch - Finesse, Int, Mem
Necro, Summoning, Bartering,
Conjure Incarnate, Mosquito swarm, Decaying touch
racial talent - Leech, Savage Sortilege


Personally I would probably take Blood Rain over Decaying Touch, as it seems like it would have better synergy with Leech and Conjure Incarnate, since it would allow you to have an easy way to heal yourself with Leech and summon a blood incarnate (to work on lowering armor for necromancy effects).

I hadn't thought about using Summoning with Necromancy before. That's actually a pretty cool combo. I imagine a water incarnate's additional restoration combined with decaying touch would be particularly effective.

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Yeah, but i gave Blood Rain to the inquisitor for style, lore reasons. Naturally you can change this during character creation to fit your own preference.

But simply as a default - i felt the skills fitt with the "witch" general archetype and style.


"I hadn't thought about using Summoning with Necromancy before. That's actually a pretty cool combo."

Mission accomplished.


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I personally like the fact geomancy restores armor since im currently having fun with a poly/aero/geo/hydro mage build with a sheild.

Basically i use take flight to get into strong but risky high-ground positions and effectively soak up damage whilst i deal damage.

I dislike the poison aspect of geomancy though, never use it since most of the fights have water lying around which makes it spread like crazy. Which basically ends any ideas of a fire mage for me.

An extreme change i though of was to buff the poison and earth damage and make it 10% armor restored since fortify and the two slow spells are all i use in the school.

Last edited by Bullethose; 06/06/17 11:44 AM.

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Geomancy is ok but it doesnt need to be slapped onto half of presets. And there should be atleast a few pure specialist builds, like a melee fighter and a pure ranger. Just so its clear those can exist.

And so you can take one of them for the origin build and then decide to add something else if you want.

Poly mixes well with a lot of builds, but i would rather keep it not too exposed in presets so the players can feel they figured out a good combination by themselves.




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For these presets, im not sure if i would make these new talents locked or not, but lets say they are selected but changeable. The custom build would certainly be able to change everything.


I'm surprised that you considered suggesting some Talents locked on presets. For player-created characters, nothing should be locked on presets except for maybe the starting weapon. The real issue with presets is Companions, which at the moment, are locked to the defaults of the preset. That's the most important reason why presets need to be improved.

Picture of Health does not require Warfare, however the bonus is 3% HP * Warfare, so with 0 Warfare, it isn't giving a bonus. I am all for improving Talents and adding a bunch of new Talents, but you didn't mention changing Talents, and currently PoH is useless with 0 Warfare.

I agree that the Fighter preset as it is is somewhat crappy, but that's mostly because it has Contamination which is a stupid fit for several reasons. Fortify's description does not say it scales based on INT, so while I understand your position, I think it's okay for the fighter to have Fortify, as it fits their role as a tank. ...Now that I think about it, I wonder if Picture of Health might be better for the Fighter preset Talent than Opportunist (currently like 3 presets start with Opportunist)? Hmmm... well probably not, PoH is not very good without 4+ points into Warfare.

I actually am building all my Rogues with a point into Aerothurge at level 2-3 so they can use other non-INT needing spells like Netherswap, Teleport, and Favourable Wind. (As a bonus, it also boosts Chloroform a bit as well.) It adds quite a lot of flexibility for three memory slots.


Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
Presets in basically every game since the beginning of time are almost all sub optimal. There are a lot of things that need attending to in the game and this particular "problem" is very near the bottom of what I hope they spend their time doing... Not that it's a waste of time, just that they have much bigger fish to fry, so to speak.


It sure matters for single-player, because Companions presets can't be configured, you're stuck with what they default to.

And yes, they do have lots of other more important stuff to do, which is why I'm not happy about the release date being so close.


Originally Posted by Kilroy512512
You're right in that it wouldn't take much effort to make the builds better, but the system is subject to change going forward so even still it would be better to wait until near launch to swing through these reworks.


What? Launch is in three months. There will be only one more patch. It's literally now or never for changes, because after launch, they can't touch saved games, and thus changes will be limited mostly to bugfixes and overly-unbalanced things. I can't see them changing presets later if they don't do it now.


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Originally Posted by Hiver
Its not supposed to be the best ever uber build.
Its supposed to be diverse. And at least a little bit original or unique.

I think it should be workable, due to the summons taking the brunt of attacks or most offense.
And after all, we are playing in a party so its also supposed to synergize with other builds.


If you are going to make "Fixes" for the presets then it should be a functional change and not feed into the same brokenness as before.

This Witch Preset is BROKEN as in "bad" and the only functionality in it is entirely contained in the fact that Summoner is a very solo-capable skillset and would still be viable no matter what you combo it with.

Your entire reasoning for this is probably the idea of a Necromancer summoning Skeletons. Yet theme doesn't fix functionality.

In fact you would have been better off replacing Necromancy with Geomancy... even if it would have been dual armor types, Geomancy has good support for the summons.

Last edited by Neonivek; 06/06/17 07:52 PM.
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Alright, any suggestions for a different talent for a "Cleric" preset?
I only chose picture of health to fit with that type of healing buffing build general style. And so it looks a bit different then other presets.

Savage sortillege is the same kind of choice for Witch and Wizard. It doesnt look that great by itself and should probably be changed to be something better. What do critical hits with magic even do? Anything special?
(if my suggestion of making Hard CC happen only on crits was taken then it would be fitting)

Ice king and Demon should also give bigger damage in those elements, lower damage in the opposite element and lower resistances to the opposing element.


Fighter can benefit from a single spell in geomancy, but that should be a different kind of preset or something the player chooses at first level up. You do have a shield skill which does the same thing as Fortitude, after all.

I also like to mix rogue and aerothurge skills. That was always a good combo.

And there could be a Paladin preset, warfare and hydro with restoration and frost armor as default choices.


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Your entire reasoning for this is probably the idea of a Necromancer summoning Skeletons. Yet theme doesn't fix functionality.

No. Never even crossed my mind. Such a stupid idea.

Dont try to proclaim what i think ever again.

If you want to make a Druid kind of preset go and do it.

Last edited by Hiver; 07/06/17 02:12 AM.
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